SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Don't you think it's past time for snooping? Not that there's anything wrong with snooping.

At this point, snooping is useful only to discover her plans in terms of how they may affect a legal case.

As far as snooping to learn about her affairs, what's the point? You know she's out there engaging in bad behavior, why torture yourself trying to figure out how and when?

Even if there's a 0.00001% chance she's coming back to you, it has to come from her, not from an argument with you.

At least on the bright side, I bet it really isn't bugging you that England flamed out in the Cup so badly. I remember my favorite American football team went through its worst season in history the year I went through this, and it wasn't 1/10th as agonizing as it would have been ordinarily.

Anyway, if you insist on still conversing with this woman, please carry a VAR. You may not be considering active suicide, but your wife is trying to goad you into unintentional legal suicide. Throwing tea? C'mon, you're better than that.

Best post I've seen from you so far.

I KNOW I will be filing for divorce next week

This^^^^^^^^^^

I can't stress enough that it is time to start living like you already have filed. She is inconsequential to you other than as the mother to your son. NOTHING she says or does should affect you.

I hope by now you've figured out that she actually enjoys your pain. A better response to her BJ in the toilet comment would have been * I'm not surprised* and walked calmly away. When dealing with her, both your best armor and ironically weapon is INDIFFERENCE. It will drive her absolutely wild when you stop feeding her ego kibbles.

Strength brother. Focus on you and your son.

@Red Sox Nation: You're quite right, I watched the two games but quite frankly I couldn't care less about the World Cup this time. Guess I should be relieved England didn't choose this year to win it for the first time in 48 years 😉

@5454real: You are ABSOLUTELY, 100% right. I'm going to remember this & try to be better at handling these situations from now on. Thanks for the perspective.

I was away for most of last week and have just finished catching up.

saveus. How many times? You need to STOP engaging with your WW. There is absolutely NOTHING to be gained by having any sort of dialogue because it will only go the wrong way and descend into a slanging match. Stop it. Give her the platitudes. She wants to talk? Fine. Go into the kitchen or wherever, sit separately (preferably opposite her so you can literally anchor yourself as well as watch her body language). Say nothing and let her talk. You can draw her out by saying “meaning?” and “I’d like you to expand on that” and “how does that make you feel?” if you want to know more. If you want her to shut up, you just say “well, I’m glad you told me” and just get up and leave the room. If she starts on you, then you simply tell her that you have NOTHING TO SAY in reply. And you say that because what YOU have to say doesn’t matter. YOU don’t matter. She is going to twist everything you do and say, and the best thing you can do is detach. Read again..... DETACH.

If she asks your thoughts/feelings/opinions/wishes/whatever then you just reply that you have nothing to say. If she persists, tell her there is nothing to be gained since she is the one who is having a relationship outside of the marriage. Do NOT tell her about anything you see or find. Do NOT throw it at her expecting some sort of shock or horror or sorrow or remorse – you ‘re not going to get it. You are only alerting her to your snooping. Pretend you can’t be bothered with it anymore. Remember: you can’t control her but you can control your responses to her. Step out of the frame and away from the crazy.

Focus on yourself and your son.

Going back to those texts – what she said and what she really meant:

I know it won't mean much to you but I've been looking in to some private counselling services.

Please don’t do anything yet, I want to be the one in control. I can lie to the counsellor and buy myself some time.

I will think about it as long as its confidential and Gp doesn't need to get involved!

I don’t want anyone to know and I certainly don’t want to have my adulterous sex life noted in my medical records.

I believe work also can offer this service and I will find out tomorrow!

This gives me more control over the situation and I can choose the counsellor – not you.

Baby steps.. It's a MASSIVE deal to me and I'm not prepared to do that without support.

I need more time.

I will deal with the other stuff soon.

I won’t, but it will make saveus feel better if I make a promise.

We owe it to ourselves and our son, to keep our family together I do know that.

Apportion some blame to saveus because it’s not my fault I am having an affair. And if we split up, it will be saveus’s fault because I'm showing that AM trying.

I've just fallen in this black hole I'm struggling to dig myself out of.

Please feel sorry for me and give me time to regain control over you.

I'm having time alone with my friend. Be back later x x

With my boyfriend.

She is desperately trying to wrench back control over you. She has probably always been the dominant one – perhaps you have just never seen it, or judged her character to be that way because that is the way she shows that she “cares” about you.

I know you don’t want to divorce. But please be assured that the only way you are going to survive this is to start proceedings. Methodically and quietly. You don’t shout or argue about it. You just tell her that she chose to do what she has done – and is still doing – and you are not going to hang around for her to kill you by a thousand cuts and bleed to death. Because that is what she is doing to you. Death by a thousand cuts.

You continue on the path knowing you can stop or divert at any time. Until that critical point of no return. Divorce will not happen overnight. It will probably take at least a year. Maybe more. That's a long time and long enough to change your minds.

She has shown you her true colours. So believe what you see. Take the divorce on as a serious work project. You need to do your homework and you need to find a decent lawyer who will fight your corner. Remember, you can change lawyers without them getting twitchy if you do it fairly soon into proceedings. Get the ball rolling with this woman you think is good (hope you have googled her and spoken to people to get professional and personal opinions), see the CAB for any opinion on this woman/practice and find out how to mitigate your costs and simply get on with it. Do NOT let her theatrics or lies get to you. There is no other option. She has taken them all away. There is only ONE thing left to do.

But you never know. Miracles can happen. But don't hold your breath to find out if your WW is going to have one.

Be strong this week. Turn that corner and take control of your life.

@craig2001: I DID ask her who she was out with. And again this lunchtime. Total refusal to answer. I will elaborate when I get the chance. But no, as yet I haven't spoken to my friend. My WW will say my 'software' (i.e. for snooping) is 'wrong'.

Doesn't matter what your wife says, she doesnt even have to know your calling YOUR best friend.

If it were me, I would be calling my best friend right now and asking him what the hell he is calling my wife for.

In a way, that is besides the point. But again, best friends don't secretly call their best friends wife!!

She now refuses to tell you who she was out drinking with.

Don't you think this has gone on long enough. Your wife is the most selfish person I have ever read about. She continues to go out and drink with other guys and stumbles home drunk.

She is now an alcoholic on top of everything else.

My opinion to you is this.

Get the hell out of that house right now. Stay at your parents...or kick your wife out right now.

Talk to your lawyer first thing tomorrow morning and tell him/her what is going on and file the damn papers immediately.

Here is what I see. Your wife provoked another response out of you. DO YOU realize what almost happened. You are damn lucky you aren't in jail right now.

What would have happened if that coffee mug had hit her in the head.

Get the hell out of that house now.

or STOP talking to her. It no longer matters who she is drinking with. It no longer matters where she had sex with psychotic OM. I not longer matters who she is having a new affair with.

Stop talking to her right now. There is absolutely nothing you need to talk to her about...nothing.

If she tries to start a conversation, there is nothing you have to say to her anymore. I dont care if she says she now wants to work on the marriage. There is no working on the marriage.

She has screwed you again. The other day, she says she is looking for IC. Now she is screwing around with other guys getting drunk and refusing to tell you who with.

No man should have to put up with this.

File the divorce, and get away from her. NOW.

Looking back, you will probably be happier than you have been in years once you get this done.

Will respond properly later but just quickly, to craig2001: I threw the tea over her, not the mug. Someone will point out I'm splitting hairs but I'm not - had the tea been boiling hot it would've been the same as hitting her on the head with mug, or worse. I get it. I'm NOT splitting hairs, just correcting you.

The more I think about it and what the lady at the bowling alley said, your wife could purposely be provoking you.

This is a plan of hers and someone else.

She is your enemy right now. The OM is your enemy right now. And there might even be others right now.

This is not paranoid talk. You had better see what is going on around you.

And it has to end this week. You need to tell your lawyer how your wife continually stays out all hours of the night and comes home drunk.

I am guessing that could matter with custody.

BUT NOT if you let her continue to provoke you into stupid reactions. IGNORE HER! No matter how hard that is, it is not impossible.

Oh, for goodness' sake Saveus, stop making excuses for yourself and your WW. You know what you did and why you did it: you are in a Catch 22 relationship with someone who has absolutely no respect for you (or herself) or her child. WHY is she still going out at night and getting drunk and getting in at dawn (please DON'T correct me on the time) and then going AWOL on another day to spend time with other men (well, who knows?)while you continue to be babysitter. This is NOT how a GOOD mother behaves!

I understand that it's only 9/10 weeks since this all began but you are with someone who is making absolutely NO inroads in really, really wanting to save her marriage.

On the basis of what OM's ex-wife says regarding children, are you STILL going to allow your son access to him???

Please, please, please re-read your entire thread and the advice and help that so many people here have offered you. We all understand how bloody hard it is for you but really, what is the alternative?

Instruct your solicitor tomorrow. You can, as everyone has said, change your mind but instead of being a doormat who is being conditioned to responding in a reactionary manner because your WW is goading you to, you will have the upper hand and she will FINALLY respect you!

All the best.

Saveus

Start the divorce process this coming week.

It is time to save you.

And your boy.

Your WW is nuts. Let the OM have her.

Keep the inlaws! And God love your parents.

There are much better women out there for you.

HM

Hey, Saveus,

I'm relieved to hear that you are going to file. Between now and then I recommend you lay as low as possible. You have seen how volatile the situation is and how either of you can snap emotionally. Disaster can ensue. Fortunately in my case we'd already been separated so we were not physically together much.

This is not an insult---remember that it took me eight months to stand up and walk away for good--but I can see you stalling again between now and then. Your emotional roots are very deep, understandably, and it would not take much on her part--a kind word, some imploring texts, even a NC letter sent to this guy--for you to stand down.

But you cannot. The damage is too deep, and your self-respect (to say nothing of her respect for you, which is non-existent) hangs by a thread. Divorce is not death. It is survival.

UKgirl wrote:

you are not going to hang around for her to kill you by a thousand cuts and bleed to death. Because that is what she is doing to you. Death by a thousand cuts.

This is what was happening to me. Every time I threatened divorce, I made an excuse; I saw signs that were not there. She tossed me a lifeless, insulting crumb of hope ("I need more time, I'm going to go back into therapy, I've hit rock bottom"; sound familiar?) and I hungrily but unhappily gobbled it up. Meanwhile I was dying inside. Simply dying.

I had. No. Choice. I wanted to live. This may sound melodramatic to anyone not on SI. You feel like you are dying.

You love her. I loved my wife. Part of me still does. But it doesn't matter. You were and are not perfect--nor was I--but nobody deserves to be treated like this. If your son were an adult and you were witness to all this, what would you tell him?

Again, these are "just in case words." Just in case she comes hoovering in a big way, and just in case a tiny little voice says to you, "Maybe this time." That voice is Hope, and at this time Hope is not your friend.

Act with steely determination, even if you feel nothing of the sort.

Saveus, this morning I woke up and missed my kids (they are with their mom for two weeks) and even my wife so badly I cried. I haven't cried in a long long time. But then I got up and began my day. I'm not being cheated on, I'm not being lied to or deceived or abused in any way. I fought my way out of it--and my worst enemy was myself.

Fight your way out of this war. Time to drop the Big One, and don't look back.

Saveus, like ukgirl said about reacting with indifference to your WW I would also add that you maintain a straight emotionless face while doing so. Your facial reactions also give ego kibbles.

Despite what OM's ex said about not divorcing WW just know that you are not losing your WW to a sociopathic OM. She is losing a quality husband by affairing down. Your MIL mentioned post pattern depression, but does this really explain previous her affairs?

Thanks again everyone. I'll try to reply individually later.

I feel sick this morning. All because I know what I have to do. What I am GOING to do.

Is it wrong to admit right here, right now, that I would be receptive - but EXTREMELY cautious - to my WW waking up and smelling the coffee at some time during the D process?

I am just being honest. I can imagine the day I know I did the right thing and wouldn't dream of reconnecting with my ex. But I'm not there yet. I know I am going to have to file with a heavy heart and much doubt & confusion, with my heart and head still at odds with each other.

I also strongly suspect my WW does not fall into the category of WSs who EVER 'wake up'. I think it's more likely she will think that is IT, as if filing is the same as getting divorced, and she will get angry. I do also think that her parents - especially her dad - will ditch their silence (not actually silence, but they have been treading on eggshells) and really tell her what they think. The problem with my WW is, she doesn't respond positively to being 'told' what to do. The problem for me has been that she doesn't respond positively either to any attempts to 'nice her back' or to show my emotions.

That is why I know I have reached the end of the road.

But please don't be alarmed - I KNOW what has to be done. Apart from my WW's bizarre behaviour over the weekend and the continued lies, I know there is an increasing risk that she will successfully manage to goad me. I know I have a snapping point (and that's something I want to work on in IC). And I have to make absolutely certain she does not manipulate me into making any more mistakes.

Twice yesterday (during my attempt at a 180) wife v1 reappeared. Very, very odd seeing as the rest of the weekend she was vile. It was like something clicked in her this weekend. She looked different - not in a good way.

I know this is not someone I could stay with. Not someone I want to spend the rest of my life with. Not the woman I fell in love with and married. But still the mother of my DS.

So, get the 2x4s out. I can hear myself, I can. But I don't want to start lying to you now. It's not WHY I'm filing but I can't help but hope wife v1 comes back for good even after everything she's done (and I'm talking SINCE D-Day - she still doesn't get this) even though I know how unlikely that is. And that I can't imagine her having such a miraculous transformation that I wouldn't be looking over her shoulder (as another poster put it) for the rest of my life.

Please tell me what I'm feeling is normal, that I'm not just being a weak, pathetic doormat again.

I'm going to re-claim my life, starting today.

Of course you hope.

I bet every BS on here, if they were truly honest, had a little bit of the same hope when they filed.

But do you know what, if you reread your post, you also talk a lot about knowing you can't live with this any longer.

You're stronger than you think.

I'm lending you my red shoes for the day

I don't even know why you feel badly. She contemptuously told you she gave the OM a BJ in the toilet. She said this angrily in defiance solely to hurt you. she obviously holds you in contempt. she doesn't respect you.

so what is the question? do you really want her? can you really tolerate that disrespect? do you want to be married to a woman that could first of all, *do that*, but second of all *taunt* you about what she did? man! that sounds like hell on earth to me.

i know we're all different, but are you really capable of forgiving either of those two things? Especially when she's showing zero accountability for her actions, or remorse, or even the tiniest amount of regret?

Friend, what are you hoping for? You can find a better wife in every single pub you walk into.

I feel sick this morning. All because I know what I have to do. What I am GOING to do.

It’s going to be okay. It’s that initial step, the jump off the top diving board – or for you perhaps standing on the ledge for the Nevis 134m bungy jump. So listen to those around you, prepare, be positive and confident, don’t just fall or try to look back – dive. Then you won’t belly-flop/sprain your back. 1-2-3 go.

Is it wrong to admit right here, right now, that I would be receptive - but EXTREMELY cautious - to my WW waking up and smelling the coffee at some time during the D process?

This is still you wanting everything to be back to how it was – how you thought it was. That is natural. But your WW has to prove, emphatically and without manipulating you, that she loves you and wants the marriage. She can see that divorce is going to cost a fair whack and maybe she wants to keep cake eating to keep her lifestyle. So in order to win you back (and that is what she has to do), she has to move out, go back to dating with you, being responsible for her actions, admitting that she has deep issues and is prepared to deal with them, is honest, transparent and above board at all times. That she shares everything with you and works with you as a true partner. I don’t think that is going to happen. But as I said above, miracles/epiphanies do happen. Although her behaviour so far has shown NO sign of this happening to her. Sorry, saveus, it ain't going to happen. Step by step, keep walking along Divorce Road. It will lead to a better life than you currently think is possible.

Don’t consider how your WW is going to respond. Once you have pushed the button and told your solicitor to go ahead, tell your WW that she needs to get her own solicitor. And no, she can’t use yours or the same practice. Do NOT offer any advice. Leave her to it. Shrug, tell her you have no choice and what she thinks or says or does is of no concern to you. You have told her you have instructed a solicitor and there is no going back. It doesn’t matter how she reacts any more. Mentally, put up a defensive wall. 180 and detach. 180 and detach. 180 and detach.

Please make sure you have documented EVERYTHING to date. Use your postings here to remind you of what has gone off. Pull your boot straps up, pack all your emotions in a rucksack, sling it on your back and walk away.

See your GP if you haven’t already, he/she may be able to offer you something to help while you regain control of your own life. And get some counselling. Here are the sites again:

http://www.counselling-directory.org.uk/

http://www.bacp.co.uk/

You will be alright. Lean on your parents and your friends. Please do NOT involve your in-laws from now on. Their concern will be their daughter first, their grandson second and not you. They WILL side with her. It’s natural. Don’t get upset or offended. Just accept that is how it will be.

Hugs for what will be a tough week.

i agree with UKgirl's advice and also her interpretation of the text messages you have been sent.

your WW is also experiencing emotions, believe it or not. one of them is attempting to rationalize and justify what shes done to avoid facing reality and the bad feelings that brings up within herself. its easier for her to paint you as the "bad guy". shes now in contempt land for you. telling you about the BJ in the bathroom like she did was pure unadulturated contempt.

it doesnt really matter at this point if shes still in contact. if shes sleeping with him still. if she wants to move in. etc. none of that matters NOW.

what matters is you have an unremorseful WW who has no regrets and feels contempt for you. if she isnt pushed off the fence ... welcome to the rest of your life with her ... most likely after multiple affairs and possibly coming back (not because she loves you but because you are nothing more than a security blanket) after leaving you for them for periods of time. until eventually she doesnt come back.

again ... you MUST push her off the fence.

in "worst" case ... you gain back some respect (both from her and for yourself). lets say she leaves. is that worse than living with her while she F's other guys? in "best" case ... maybe it snaps her out of the fog and she realizes that shes completely wrong and begins to show remorse. maybe she stops her affair, commits to you, etc, etc.

but in reality you shouldnt be filing for D because you want her to snap her head out of her ass. the chances are that as soon as you file she will either react with massive anger or she will feign remorse in order to derail the D, shut you up, and get life back to the status quo.

once you file its time to shut up, detach, stop engaging with her, and observe her. see what she does. you dont need to discuss anything except your son with her.

shes given you a crap sandwich. yes, its not fair. all you can do is accept that its a crap sandwich and continue onwards.

Edited: Upon re-read and what others have added, I agree not the best advice, I think I'm reading way too much of my situation into this.

[This message edited by janxspirit at 11:04 AM, June 23rd (Monday)]

Stepping in here:

Whatever you do, do NOT take your boy and "disappear". Bad news all around. Child abduction is a serious issue and won't solve a thing. Just in case it crosses your mind to take Janx's advice. Not a good idea. You will lose everything and it won't last long. You'd be discovered within a couple of weeks.

I know you feel you are hanging by a thread, but just try to stay calm and see things objectively. Your solicitor and the CAB will help you to gain perspective and you will feel better at the end of the week compared to how you feel now. You will not feel so alone once all this is out in the open and you have people IRL on your side and fighting your corner.

Is it wrong to admit right here, right now, that I would be receptive - but EXTREMELY cautious - to my WW waking up and smelling the coffee at some time during the D process?

No, Saveus, it's not "wrong" but it is unwise to go into it with this as your motivation or to even entertain it as a possibility.

It is natural, and understandable. I did the same. During the entire divorce process, there was that tiny (sometimes not so tiny) voice of Hope: "Surely THIS will wake her up and everything will fall into place. I will regain my power, she will fall to her knees and we will live happily ever after."

In my case it did not happen. Maybe it will in yours. The problem is that you will be setting yourself up for grave disappointment if she does not wake up. Like the 180 (which I failed miserably at over and over), divorce is for you--your own Hail Mary pass to win YOURSELF back, not to win her back.

The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior. It has taken abominable behavior on her part to push you to this point. Expect that her behavior will sink to even lower depths when you file and begin the process of truly closing the bakery. She will lose her control over you and she will NOT LIKE IT.

I won't sugarcoat it: divorce was sheer hell. In my case it took eight months--coincidentally the same duration of time I was in limbo. But now that it is over? I will take divorce over limbo any day.

Take it one day, one hour, one minute at a time. Keep a list handy of all the emotional crimes she has committed against you and your son when you feel yourself start to weaken. Grit your teeth and plod through the storm of emotional bullets I predict she will hurl your way once she sees you walking away.

I'm filing but I can't help but hope wife v1 comes back for good even after everything she's done

Not only done, but apparently is still doing or doing again.

Staying out late, coming home drunk, not telling you who she is out with and odd phone calls with totally different guys now.

This has become another Just Found Out's. How many more of those can you take.

Considering how you think too much, do not fall for false R once you file. Think back to the false R's so far.

Just stay strong and realize this is most certainly the right thing to do for you and your son.