SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Yes, those feeling are natural. Within a few months, you'll see things very differently. We all do.

You don't want W1.0 back. You want something you never really had. In time, you'll understand that statement.

Even if she decides she doesn't want to divorce, that's only part of the process. You have to accept reconciliation. And to do that, you have to understand what she did and why.

And you will reach that point. You probably will feel like most of us do then, which is happier just to move on and find someone with integrity down the road.

I follow many stories here. Yours is one of those stories where I don't see true reconciliation as an outcome. Either you'll get divorced and heal during this process or you'll take her back without doing the work of reconciliation and this cycle will eventually repeat.

As for the FIL, yes, he's disappointed. But it's still his daughter. So don't put too much on him.

Saveus, I know you want your wife to realize what she has done and to R. But that has not happened and certainly doesn't look like it is going to happen.

In fact, she is doing the exact opposite of R.

I can't think of doing anything more opposite of R than what she has done. And it looks like it is getting worse.

Other than long term Individual therapy for her, I just don't see where she wants to change. And until someone wants to change, they are not going to change and they are not even going to realize they are the one doing something wrong.

For the most part, a person does not really want to change unless the circumstances he/she currently are in changes and the requirements to survive within that changed environment forces them to adopt, thus "change".

Saveus, when you do file and have her served then the conditions have changed. The environment of the relationship will have changed. How she copes with that is up to her, but you have a plan to move forward. She will likely have a plan to preserve the current conditions and resist change. The legal process in D will be the driving force to press that change and you will be in the driver's seat for this process.

There's a slim chance she does get hit with a bolt of reality and comes to her senses. At that point you can require of her to work hard on herself, seek therapy to find the "why", live honestly like a nun (no more drinking and dating other men), be a better mother to your son, and show you through actions that she is worth "considering" R.

But in the mean time, she will manipulate you until she herself "changes".

Buddy, you deserve WAY more than this. You son deserves WAY more than this. There's a better woman out there that deserves a life with you and your son. For every inch you have given her to "change" she has taken it, wiped her ass with it, crumpled and tossed it back into your face. You should be FURIOUS at this stage. However, nothing delivers that fury hard to the heart than cold, unemotional indifference. Time to shut down all communication channels to your heart from her. She deserves no more time and no more ground. Stay the course and don't read into anymore of her manipulative behavior. Just document it for the sake of strengthening your custody argument. Believe me, after she gets served she will give you PLENTY of material to document.

You've gone quiet saveus. This concerns me and I am wondering if these perhaps conflicting quotes have anything to do with it.

That is why I know I have reached the end of the road.

and:

Twice yesterday (during my attempt at a 180) wife v1 reappeared.

You do know she is manipulating you? Tell me you do. She pulls the strings and you dance. You 180 and she becomes her former self. She wants control. Full control.

I hope you are steadily working on your papers and finances and things to do with custody and this is why you are quiet. You are too busy to read and reply. And it is not the case that you are falling back into the victim state and telling yourself that this marriage will work. Well, if that is the case, that is your choice.

Just check in, let us know how you are and where you are at.

UKg x

[This message edited by UKgirl at 4:48 AM, June 24th (Tuesday)]

I'm fine and not shying away entirely from the 2x4s heading my way. I did call the solicitor first thing on Monday. Had a couple of setbacks which you will quite rightly point out I LET be setbacks. I ended up speaking with my WW. So, YES, I'm having a wobble (from your perspective). No, I haven't filed. Yes, I am quite probably being manipulated. One last throw of the dice. Have had some honesty this morning but yes, this could well be stalling and manipulation. My eyes are open. Don't give up on me just yet (know you won't).

I know the temptation is to wait, oh this one last chance, and then there will be another.

Like Nike says - Just do it. If she is really going to change and do the work to fix her broken self, it won't matter if you have filed.

But every day, time you wait, she is able to manipulate, and weaken you, and your resolve.

You can have additional throws of the dice while filing.

You are both invested in the cycle of words/promises.... proven to be lies over time... followed by the confrontation... and then the backing off. Your 180- her disappearing acts(to OM).... until the next round of professions and promises.

She does this- so that she can cake eat- and -you do it- to hold on to and feed the hope that inflates and deflates with each go around.

Yes. She can pull her head out and re commit to the marriage. But in most cases it is a show of strength and not compromise that precipitates this.

I know it is hard. This crappy cycle ends when you say so. You don't have to throw your hope for the marriage on the trash heap, but you do have to start requiring more of and for yourself. She may not be able to rise to that. But you can.

[This message edited by redrock at 8:10 AM, June 24th (Tuesday)]

Have had some honesty this morning but yes, this could well be stalling and manipulation.

Every one of us has been manipulated. We could write books on being manipulated.

What types of honesty? And pertaining to what?

It almost seems as if the WS has a huge box of lies and when they feel their BS getting angry or about ready to leave, they open the box and toss out a few honesty pieces.

The BS then thinks, okay finally. Then the WS shuts up and gets defensive and no more honesty bones.

Then the WS starts messing up again, starts the affair again and the cycle starts all over.

If you've ever had a dog, you know exactly what this is like when you give your dog a treat once in a while.

Saveus,

The process of divorce takes many months, sometimes even a couple of years.

In the UK the process can be stopped by you at any point right up until the very last minute. It's not a runaway train. Even when the nisi is signed you can still halt the process. Only when the absolute comes through are you divorced.

Starting the process off puts a stake in the ground. It tells her that you are prepared to "SAVEUS" and by that I presume you mean you and your son?

The wayward hates to face up to reality! Divorce is what happens when you won't quit fucking another man.

How are you travelling Saveus?

Hi everyone,

I'd like to get back to each of you one by one but it's probably better that I just update you on the last week. Sorry for the monster post but it really helps AND acts as my journal of what's gone on.

So, last Sunday. I last posted that my WW was going to take our son out. I spent a slice of the morning upstairs listening to sad songs and bawling my eyes out. Pathetic, I know. No-one saw or heard me. No-one (by which I mean my WW) came to check on me. My DS came upstairs at one point to get something from his bedroom. I dived for the front window and peered out into the street. Don't think he saw how upset I was.

When I went downstairs, my WW was ready for a fight. I couldn't help but tell her I'd been upstairs crying (big mistake) to which she replied, 'oh right of course you were'. For some reason that hurt.

I had plans to be positive and get outside in the beautiful weather and sort the front and back of the house out (the house has been increasingly neglected over the last couple of months). Of course, as my WW pointed out, she can't drive at the moment, and had promised to take our son out to Pick-Your-Own (strawberries etc).

I tried to avoid a fight but in the end my WW put our DS in the middle by saying things like, 'daddy doesn't want to come out with us today', and telling me in front of him that I should 'do the right thing' and put our son first DS broke my heart when he got upset and said to me, 'daddy, I don't want you to leave!'

She also threatened to get the OM to come and pick them up if I wouldn't drive them to PYO.

I had to get out so left to go round to my uncle's as I needed something from my car (he's a mechanic and was taking a look at it for me). As I left my WW came downstairs, shouting something or other and forcefully grabbed me by the left arm. I shrugged past her again (not dissimilar from how her hand got broken) and got out the front door, with my WW shouting something about me not coming back after me.

I sat on a wall for a while, texting a fellow SI board member. A thought became clear in my head: she couldn't drive. Our joint account was empty. My WW was - for once - completely dependent on me, hence the black mood.

I stayed out for maybe a couple of hours. Spent a good 45 minutes lying on the grass in a local playing field talking to my Mum. I went home expecting an empty house. All was calm. WW and I got into a chat, not a row. She refused to answer who she was with on Friday. In fact, she walked past me a flicked her middle finger at me.

I really felt like she was cracking up.

Bizarrely - I know, I'm hopeless - everything must have calmed down as I ended up taking WW and DS to the farm for PYO. By now though I was trying (misguidedly) to enforce the 180. WW spent the time there asking stupid questions about strawberries (seriously) and asking if I was going to ignore her

After PYO we went to our son's favourite local kid-friendly pub. Sat in the garden watching him bombing around with loads of other kids, it being a glorious summer's day. WW and I barely spoke. Frankly I blanked her for several hours. In the end she decided she'd walk home (20 mins - this from the woman who said she couldn't walk our boy to the local park, 100 yards away, in the morning) so I left with DS. Got him ready for bed, as usual. I stupidly tried to reason with her by text (she wasn't picking up - again), saying her son was well used to not seeing her in the mornings and evenings, and offering to come back to pick her up. She replied half an hour later to say:-

I've said goodnight and I'll be back in a bit. Stop trying to guilt trip me! I already told [DS]. I'm still at [pub]. You can check if you like?! You had time alone earlier and I'm not having a go about that am I ?!

My 'time alone' was the hour or two spent wandering the streets (not sipping wine on a gorgeous evening watching the world go by) - yeah, great quality time with myself

I tell you one thing though (and I've said this before but keep 'falling off the wagon') - the 180 has instant results with my WW (and I fully appreciate manipulating her is not the point). During that afternoon she kept saying things like, 'you're on that phone more than me these days' and 'good job I'm not paranoid!'. Then, when I mentioned a waitress was a bit barking mad but at least she had personality, WW said, 'why don't you get her number then??'

She turned up back home sometime around 8.30-9. Early for her but then I suspect our/her meagre finances had run out. First thing out of her mouth, 'I'll bring the strawberries in then!'. Oops, I'd left them in the car. And I thought I was on for Husband of the Year 2014 too. Second thing? 'That's not staying in here', referring to the kids' toy golf set my Mum & Dad gave DS on Saturday - the problem for my WW being my parents, not the toy. Third? 'Did you wash DS's school shorts? Did you even look?' (no, granted, I hadn't). All of this went sailing over my head.

While she was out I showered DS, read him a story, listened to him read a bit of his book from school, put him to bed, hopped in the bath, ironed my work clothes, tidied the kitchen a bit and made DS's school lunch. Not that I'm asking for thanks (as my WW would have it)!!! And I'm clearly not perfect

Inside the next hour, wife version 1 (henceforth referred to as 'W1') returned. Suddenly she was being very nice. Even looking for my work trousers for me.

So, Monday rolled around. I already posted here early on Monday morning about my feelings over what I was set to do - file. So, picking up the story a little later on... I called the solicitor from my car after taking DS to school. You couldn't make this up - the solicitor I'd met face-to-face with left the week before on next-to-no notice to join the RAF!!!! Only the night before I'd read online (checking out her background/references/experience etc) that she'd been in the TA (Territorial Army) and had spent a year (whilst training to be a solicitor) in Afghanistan.

I had a bad experience with a horrible secretary at this particular law firm so very nearly wrote them off. I then realised I was only cutting off my own nose. The phone rang and it was another solicitor, who answered all my questions from my email last week, and discussed divorce again, adding quite a bit of detail I didn't previously realise. Very constructive and I was quite convinced I could work with her. She did advise not to start D proceedings until completely ready, mentally.

I drove to work.

By now I was having a wobble (as predicted here). I'll admit that finances played a part - the solicitor wants £900 up front (that covers EVERYTHING except if WW & I couldn't sort child arrangements/finances through mediation/between us) which neither I nor the company had right then. I ended up calling my WW. We talked. And argued. She conceded a few things that until recently she flatly refused - NC call, counselling - but still refused to change her email/phone number. I was wasting my time trying to get her to see that she should WANT to do these things FOR ME, not out of some misguided notion of 'being controlled'.

I had to pick our DS up from a friend's house after school, at 6pm. All the way there (a forty minute drive) I was talking to my WW (she offered to call me as I left work). Again, mostly very frustrating. I got angry. WW retreated more and spewed out a few horrible remarks. I pulled over, making myself late, and called my MIL. Very supportive as ever, but despairing - what could I expect? No-one knows how to deal with my WW.

After I picked up DS, suddenly the tone changed by text. My WW asked me to pick her up from a pub in town. She said she'd been there all afternoon crying. She certainly looked very red-eyed.

I scrapped my plans to go to the cinema with my best friend. Stupid of me, I know, but I hoped WW & I could continue the more positive vibe plus I didn't feel in the mood to see my best mate who, so far, knew nothing about any of this. WW & I didn't talk or not until we had fifteen minutes productive chat when she went to bed. Earlier in the evening, she fell asleep on the bed for a while (avoidance).

The next morning (Tuesday) I woke up around 5am, feeling worried sick. Sent my WW a long text demanding honesty about her secretive behaviour at the weekend and offering to take Wednesday off to calmly discuss our future (I know, I know, I know...). She replied mid-morning when I was at work, with a load of honesty - it had the ring of truth to it, so I was inclined to believe her. Even when she said something she knew would be hurtful, I could tell it was genuine and purposeful, not vindictive and spiteful. She told me all about Friday and Saturday, who she was with and where she went. Even when I pushed her on a point that might usually cause her walls to go up, she answered frankly and with understanding.

She did however stick to her plan of seeing her girlfriend(s) on Wednesday. A bit later I challenged this, pointing out that saving our M was a bit more important (though without the note of sarcasm). I told her to think it through (though it shouldn't be necessary), talk to her mum (who was coming over to take her to the eye clinic at the hospital and get back to me later. I left work, drove the forty minutes in the wrong direction to pick DS up from school, then another hour back in the opposite direction to take him to his bowling club (not that I minded). Anyway, long story short, by 9pm she was reading back my texts in the wrong order to justify her decision to stick to Plan A (see her friends) and to 'prove' that I'd OK'd it (as if that mattered anyway).

So, Wednesday... WW appeared before I took DS to school (unusual). I was niggly with her (she accused me of 'attacking' her as soon as she got up) as I was frankly very let down she was putting her social life (again) ahead of our marriage. We didn't argue but there was an atmosphere. At least, on my way out the door, she confessed that she HAD emailed the OM five times that night our son had a high temperature. 'But you don't understand', she said. 'You know he [OM] has health problems and I was asking how he was' . You couldn't make this stuff up (except I now know it's quite normal with WSs).

After dropping DS to school I sat in the car and WW and I spoke on the phone. Again it veered from positive to downright frustrating. She carried on with her day. I didn't know what to do with myself (so work suffered again - I didn't go in at all yesterday). Found myself sitting in a supermarket car park calling Relate (marriage/relationship counsellors).

Went home (once WW out) and called my best friend. Weirdly, while his home line rang & rang, he text me from work asking if everything was OK. I text back and he called me back. Told him everything. He didn't exactly sound surprised. He's very methodical and sees the world slightly differently to anyone else I know. He's very practical, wants to fix things. But this one he didn't see as fixable (his own parents split when he was 3 or 4 and he got quite emotional when telling me some of his best memories are of the weekends he spent with his dad - his basic point to me was that there IS a way through this and that I would not only survive it but prosper, and that DS would be OK).

He did drop a bit of a bombshell on me, however. He and my WW (then girlfriend) kissed at a party we threw many years ago - probably in 2000/2001. He explained the usual reasons for not owning up before and sounded quite crushed at the memory. He has been like a brother to me (Best Man at our wedding) so, whilst I was obviously disturbed at this latest turn of events, I believed him when he explained his guilt and how wretched he'd felt the next day. Obviously, this is another betrayal (and explains why my WW made an under-her-breath remark about me not being able to trust him back in about week two, which I just took to be out of spite) and something else I now have to deal with. Of course I am now worried sick about TT from him. I should be seeing him tonight so I'm going to ask him straight out. TT will destroy our friendship. Finding out the worst right here, right now, runs the same risk but I've learnt is by far and away the lesser of two evils.

We discussed my dilemma with my other friend, the one who it looks like has been calling my WW. We'll talk this through tonight.

During the afternoon yesterday my WW emailed me a photo of her and her friend out where she said they'd be. I'd be pleased were it not for the fact the last time (the only other time) my WW has done this she found time to go and have sex with the OM on the way home. As the day went on her texts got weirder and more self-serving:-

I promise you with all my heart I am in the g&d [pub] with her having lunch!! Xx

I'm just checking! Not completely groovy as Sol and I had a lot of booze! Just being honest! What can I say?? Xx

I took DS to a pub (my God, it sounds like we live in pubs!) with a bouncy castle after school. Had some quality time with him. Took him through the car wash as a treat. Popped to the shop for some essentials. WW called me there asking where we were (it was 7.30pm and normally we'd be at home, DS getting ready for bed). She wasn't angry, more like paranoid. She then told me she WAS going to be coming home soon but her gay friend from that disastrous Friday was coming to meet her. He'd give her a lift home later.

Next I heard she called from a pub several miles in the OPPOSITE direction, where her friend had taken her. She made one or two comments I'm sure were for the benefit of her friends, e.g. 'I really am not happy about having to check in with you every five minutes' (er, I never said you had to, nor have you anyway), and 'if you really need an exact time I'll be in...' - that kind of thing.

I spoke to my Mum around 9pm then my MIL. She was great again. Very frank and understanding. Quite upset in places. We are both worried about my WW's drinking (amongst other things). She stressed what I already know, that I can't change WW. She urged me to go to bed, that WW would find her way home somehow. I said I felt like I was worrying over a teenage daughter, not a wife and mother.

At half ten she text to say she was back at her gay friend's house. Bear in mind this is where she apparently was that terrible Friday when she decided to walk home. I didn't reply.

WW woke me up (God knows why) at 12.40am (I think). I didn't have anything to say and quite frankly was irritated at being disturbed.

I have no idea what is going on inside her head except I am now realising this behaviour has been going on for YEARS. Possibly our entire 16 years.

So, anyway, that's where I'm at. No divorce filing. Right now I feel like giving her a timeframe in which things HAVE TO improve, and 180, 180, 180 her. I'm still seeing the Divorce Lawyer at the CAB at 10.30 this morning. WW is very unhappy about this. I don't entirely understand why. But after her avoidance this week (and delaying tactics - I do see that) I have made it quite clear I am not changing my plans.

Go on then, tell me where I'm going wrong (er, everywhere).

Next time, I'll try to post more frequently. If you've read all this, thank you.

Thanks for the update Saveus.

I read it all, and frankly, my summation is thus:

- Your WW is still acting like a single woman (i.e. going out and getting drunk until dawn).

- Your WW's 'gay friend' is actually a cover for her to meet OM...I guarantee it.

- Your WW is actively dressing you down when you try and impose any sense of responsibility on her to make you feel safe.

- WW resents you for asking her to tell you where she is when she disappears at will.

- WW admits that she is still in contact with OM.

- TT keeps pouring out that suggests your WW has been playing around on you for years in some fashion with pretty much everyone you know.

- Your WW is openly mocking your sadness and feelings about her affair. 'Of course you were inside crying'...Unbelievable.

- Your WW dangles contact with OM like a blackmailed threat when things don't go her way.

- Your WW is trying to blame her behaviour on you, and even worse, is relaying those lies onto your son to make you look like a shitty father.

Now for you:

- YOU are still excusing her behaviour by going slightly 180, and then cancelling said 180 as soon as she bites and gives you but a taste of civility.

- You still haven't filed for D, and henceforth she still doesn't get the fact that her actions have consequences.

- Despite a few more fights and some TT, you are exactly where you are as of D-Day.

I'm sorry mate, but this is going in circles. I have no more advice to give, you know what you have to do....I'm just afraid you're going to endure this bullshit indefinitely.

Your MIL has stated 'you cannot change her'. You admit she has behaved like this for 16 years. So now you have your answer. You can file for divorce and perhaps MAKE her look inwards at why she is the way she is, or you can endure a future of being a willing cuckold while you make excuses for her behaviour and continue to live in misery. Filing is not a fait accompli, it simply gives you 12 months to ascertain whether she is going to make an effort to change.

I am so sorry mate.

P.S. Have you ever considered that her going out and spending money you guys don't have on regular drinking is her way of stopping for from filing? She's possibly manipulating that as well.

[This message edited by Hurthalo at 1:59 AM, June 26th (Thursday)]

She also threatened to get the OM to come and pick them up if I wouldn't drive them to PYO

nuff said.

Time to wake up and smell the coffee, Saveus

You are very focused on her and her drama. The 180 is about focusing on you. It is 'try and try again' until it feels more natural to you. There is calm and peace later on this road, but not with your wife it seems to me. Refocus your attention away from her and her toxic behaviour (whereby your DS's well being is sacrificed on the altar of her need to score points), there is no salvation there. It is on re-membering who you are, literally, and when you begin to see that, you begin to see how co-incidental she is to that. Get some tools to help you, whether it's exercise, new hobbies, mindfulness, all of which need to be done on a daily basis, you NEED the fitness of mind that theses daily practises will bring.

Kids are not oblivious. If you think your son doesn't know what's going on, you are wrong. Hell, she is dragging him into your arguments.

Everyone is telling you the same thing..even her own mother.

You put this in your last post:

No-one knows how to deal with my WW.

Yes we do...and so do you. You are just unwilling to do so.

It's difficult, saveus. It took me a long time to find my spine...as well as many other betrayed members here...and we are trying to save you from extended misery. Eventually you will reach your breaking point, and either choose to live the life of a cuckold, or remove yourself from infidelity. I hope that you choose the latter.

saveus,

you get uniform advice on this thread. 99% says the exact same thing.

your only chance to end the manipulation, the (probably still ongoing)affair, to find out the truth, to protect yourself, to protect your son = file for divorce.

you agree. yet you dont do it.

the more you delay, the longer you hold things off = the less likely this has anything other than an incredibly bad outcome. filing doesnt mean you get a happy ending, it does mean that there is a chance. not filing = automatically bad ending to this. the longer you wait the worse the outcome.

when do you file? what will it take?

when do you file? what will it take?

I keep asking myself the same question. All I know is I'll know.

I thought that point had come on Monday morning. But things happen for a reason and the solicitor I met with this morning at the CAB now gets my vote. She was brilliant. Reassuring and had solutions for everything. She was the first solicitor to identify I am not ready yet but to say, 'let's take a look at how divorce would look if you were ready'. Her firm is more expensive than my previous choice but I thought she was excellent.

I post here to keep a record for myself as well as for your input, which you know I always appreciate. But please don't think I'm always saying, 'what should I do???'. I knew someone would point out the error in my statement that 'no-one' knows how to deal with my WW. I saw the irony as I was typing the words. I know 99% of the advice on here is the same and that I'm forcing you to repeat yourselves every time I post, but that does not mean I am not listening, or don't think your advice is correct.

I do, but I am in the middle of this storm and think my WW is one complicated, mixed up person with many unresolved issues. I want to help her. But I know I cannot unless she is willing. Just bear with me.

I'll continue to post, of course, but please don't think I'm not listening when/if I do.

[This message edited by saveus at 7:46 AM, June 26th (Thursday)]

Thanks to everyone who's replied this morning.

Pleasure mate, we're just worried about you.

You cannot change her Saveus. You cannot. It has been a quarter of a year now and she shows no remorse. She continues to rub it in your face.

There is an oft repeated phrase on this site:

Don't

Even

Think

About

Changing

Her

I.e. DETACH. She has been this way for 16 years. She has fucked other men your entire marriage, you have told us this.

I just don't get it, but ultimately I don't have to I guess?