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the threats and ultimatums haven't worked. she snuck behind his back. I agree she's open about it now. What i'm suggesting is a last ditch appeal to her loyalty and morals. Sometimes being calm is scarier than losing your shit. Do I know it will work? No. I'm just saying what I would do. And if my wife didn't comply, I would divorce her. it wouldn't be negotiable. it's a take it or leave it appeal because I couldn't live with this disrespect. but I would at least appeal to what we had meant to each other, and our past, and our love, and ask her one more time. If that doesn't work, what's the point?

[This message edited by mike7 at 7:25 AM, June 4th (Wednesday)]

I would not be so sure the VAR will tell him so much. he has had it installed for a few weeks now and so far has not told us he heard anything earth shattering or revealing. That is because IU Hoosier has allowed her to keep all of her same cell phone and e mail addresses and apparently has not gotten copies of all these things from the providers. She is walking around his house, calling him from her cell phone, so why sit in the car. She is away from him all day at work and can talk to PM as much as she wants on breaks, lunch etc. She's probably also still sexting him to keep him real interested.

Or she is using a burner phone. If she was talking to a lot of people in the car, he would have a lot more details right now.

She is doing what she wants, how she wants, and when she wants with no real consequences. I do not consider the D papers after the original shock that meaningful because she knows that does not happen instantly. She's had the papers for weeks and it means nothing to her.

I think everyone is in agreement that if IU Hoosier wants to keep his dignity despite the hurt he has to make some decision and initiate more action to bring this to a conclusion.

i hope it is not affecting his job performance but don't see how it could not. He might want to confide in his supervisor so if his job performance is slipping he may get some understanding there. IU Hoosier endured this for a month telling no one but us here on this forum. Hopefully, that ended last evening.

My two cents: if you make her feel attacked or cornered, I think she runs.

Key is how you frame this.

Communicate in a way that gets you what you want by leading her there (instead of ordering her there).

Make her feel safe with you. Show her respect (even though she doesn't deserve it) in the hope that she'll mirror that.

Something like: neither of us knows how this will end. Because you are my wife, I owe it to you to see if we can work through this in MC.

I am willing to try to forgive a deal-breaker (infidelity). I am asking that you do something that you are struggling with right now and honor NC from now until whenever one of us decides trying to save this marriage is a lost cause.

I don't need you to promise that you'll never speak to him again. I just need you to promise that you won't speak to him unless / until you decide our marriage is a lost cause and that you'll inform me when you reach that conclusion so I can exit the picture and we can both move on (you, with OM, if that's what you want).

I get this isn't ideal. It's not shock and awe and its not a pledge of her undying love and a guarantee of a future together.

But it's probable the only step you can expect her to take given where she's at in her thought process. If this isn't going to be enough for you to want to stay in the M to see where this goes, that's understandable. But it may be the only way you get her buy in and the first step to getting this back on track.

This is such a low bar that, if she can't agree to it, you're toast.

Can also tell her that if what you feel for OM is special, those feelings won't disappear and you can move on with closure knowing you gave the M one last chance. Tell her that if OM cares for you, he'll honor your need to seek resolution on your marriage without interference.

He has already tried this approach twice and she has continued to lie to him. This says she can keep OM on hold and he will rely on her good faith to be truthful with him.

This "nicing" her back has been disasterous when he forgave her initially and told her he wanted to work it out

Your suggestion here seems to be telling IU Hoosier to put himself totally at her mercy . She has already REJECTED multiple requests and demands to go NC

IU Hoosier, I hope you do not take this route

My two cents: if you make her feel attacked or cornered, I think she runs.

I agree, and running is many times just a defensive action and not the chosen action of the WW.

I don't need you to promise that you'll never speak to him again. I just need you to promise that you won't speak to him unless / until you decide our marriage is a lost cause and that you'll inform me when you reach that conclusion so I can exit the picture and we can both move on

And that is certainly fair and calm enough...I would add no more delays though.

I thought IUHoosier was looking at all phone calls and texts throughout this.

I have not heard a thing about the OM once calling his wife. Which I do find odd.

The VAR from the other night should be telling because she already admitted she called him after she left the house.

I think IUH should look through everything he can and find out just how much communicating has really gone on.

Once again, it sure seems like there is much more to this than he knows. And I only say that because I have never seen a WW act like this and be so indecisive over a kiss with a guy that doesnt even live in the same country.

But just because I have never read about it here, doesnt mean that that is not the way his wife acts. So who really knows.

For all we know, the OM just listens when she calls and is doing nothing at all to provoke this. Too many questions. And that is why I think IUH should look through everything. Too many unanswered questions can lead to indecisiveness.

Craig & Blindsided

Where in any of her actions do you see any reason for him to accept that she will keep her word on anything. he has told her his trust in her is shattered and he does not believe anything she says.

And you think the guy in Canada is nonchlantly just hanging out waiting for her phone calls. Please don't tell me you believe that.

And she tells the OM, "Honey, just let me see how I feel after a while and I might choose you", and IU Hoosier is supposed to accept that hanging over his head and on top of everything else begin to trust her???

Craig, you and i both assumed that IU Hoosier would be MUCH more aggressive in getting more information other than the VAR. To my knowledge, that is part of the reason he is where he is. Some of us suggested he call phone company ad get records and ask for help on the forum from techies on here on who to retrieve her e mails since he did have access. by now, she probably has a new private e mail and if he calls her at work there is no toll charged so her work will not know.

She is obviously not have a LOT OF CONVERSATIONS IN THE CAR OR HE WOULD KNOW A LOT MORE.I think from the beginniing her cunningness has been underestimated out of IU Hoosiers denial initially and trying to hope he could reason with her.

But it still all boils down to the fact that SHE HAS NOT AGRRED TO STOP CONTACT, SHOWS NO SIGNS OF ANY WILLINGNESS TO DO THAT, AND NOW IS AT THE POINT WHERE SHE IS NOT EVEN HIDING WHAT SHE IS DOING FROM HIM BY ADMITTING SHE IS IN CONTACT WITH HIM

Howe on earth do you reconcile with that????

I agree with MC or "couples counseling" as being a waste of time at this point. I think she is doing this in hopes that the counselor understands her situation, sides with her position, then convinces IU to go along with WW's game plan while "handling" IU's emotions through the process of WW "deciding" which man to pick. She wants couples counseling so that you "accept" the situation as it stands now.

IU, she has shown you who she is. Do you really want her back? In times of crisis, people really reveal who they are at their core by how they handle it. Whether the people stay the way they are largely depends on whether they make the effort fix themselves or not. You cannot force them to do it. Keep moving forward with the D as you are now. This is your only light house in this shit storm.

Tell your in-laws what is going on. Provide them copies of all the evidence of what you have so they know the truth. Don't do it in hopes they will pull her out of the fog. Do it so that when she does eventually tries to justify her mistake to them, they will know otherwise and call her out on the bullshit and the M rewrite.

Maybe at that point the fog breaks, she realizes the horrible mistake she made, THEN does anything and everything to get you back, even after the D is final. At that point you can demand the total and absolute truth, transparency, accountability, whatever you need that makes you feel safe with her. At that point you can judge whether she is remorseful and willing to do whatever it takes to fix her broken. At that point you will be strong and detached enough to determine if she is someone you really want to grow old with again.

You are finding out now how incredibly selfish she really is. She quite likely was this selfish all along. She has a lot of fixing to do to earn her way back into your heart.

badhurt:

Howe on earth do you reconcile with that?

People on here have reconciled with their spouses doing much, much worse.

It is all up to IUH what his end of rope is going to be.

And we cannot assume anything like his wife is sexting, his wife is talking to the OM much more.

That is why IUH has got to get more information, more proof. And yes I know, the getting of proof can go on and on.

But all we DO Know for certain is that his wife has admitted to her friend on the phone that she has NOT called the OM but doesn't know how long that would last.

Then she admits to IUH that she did call him.

And then called him again after that fight.

One question is when and how did his wife call the OM before that fight at 1am?

From home on her on own phone is the assumption, but I dont know.

I also think MC is a waste of time in that she is looking for a third party to validate her fog thinking. That is just a waste of time.

Telling her parents is a far better choice for a third party intervention of this mess, to get her out of this foggy fake romantic novel thinking.

Except the mystery here is that oft-repeated question: why?

If IUH meant what he said that he'd keep the marriage if WW wouldn't contact OM, the counseling plan might be his only chance to rapidly learn whether the M can be saved. Her infatuation with OM doesn't make any logical sense at all.

Any legitimate counselor would see her as acting beyond irrational. And, one hopes, would, question her on her motives. That questioning would occur in counseling. No counselor worth his/her license would suggest that he go along with her " plan" to explore her feelings for OM.while passively sitting on the sidelines.

I would hear her words on tape talking to him from her car that late night before agreeing to counseling as I suspect they were more honest about her feelings than anything she'll tell IUH right now. If ambivalent, then counseling might work.

Nothing prevents IUH from continuing the divorce case. What does he have to lose? If the M is over, he needs to know that.

She does probably feel threatened and has considered running. That doesn't do a thing to preserve a M.

badhurt:

Howe on earth do you reconcile with that?

People on here have reconciled with their spouses doing much, much worse.

It is all up to IUH what his end of rope is going to be.

And we cannot assume anything like his wife is sexting, his wife is talking to the OM much more.

That is why IUH has got to get more information, more proof. And yes I know, the getting of proof can go on and on.

But all we DO Know for certain is that his wife has admitted to her friend on the phone that she has NOT called the OM but doesn't know how long that would last.

Then she admits to IUH that she did call him.

And then called him again after that fight.

One question is when and how did his wife call the OM before that fight at 1am?

From home on her on own phone is the assumption, but I dont know.

I also think MC is a waste of time in that she is looking for a third party to validate her fog thinking. That is just a waste of time.

Telling her parents is a far better choice for a third party intervention of this mess, to get her out of this foggy fake romantic novel thinking.

Craig,

I agree with he needed more proof but IU Hoosier probably now understands he probably should have been more aggressive in doing that, but of course at that time he had SOME belief that she was being honest with him. The other night, IU Hoosier woke her up about 12 midnight or a little later and that is when she admitted she had called him. The answer to your question is was she home until she went to bed? If she was, the she called him on her own cell phone. She then left the house and called him again on her cell phone because at 1AM it is highly unlikely she went to someone else"s house and IU Hoosier has not gotten anything from that night yet from the VAR.

You are right, there is so much we and he do not know and at this point unless she confesses it, which she will not do voluntarily, that goes to before the Mexico trip. There are a million unanswered questions. A POLYGRAPH is the only way other than her confession at this point that he will ever get the answers or proof you are asking him get.

You are spot on on the MC. I also believe she is just looking for a therapist to take a few weeks or another month or more to give her stall time.

It's a waste of money until she has a husband, and NOT a boyfriend and a husband, which is what she wants at present.She really does not want to choose. The Canadian lives out of town and i really think what she is after is IU Hoosier being OK with her having a little sexual escapade with him once in a while. That may be from watching her toxic girlfriend in Mexico enjoy herself with her husbands blessing. That is what her friend has. How it all came about IU Hoosier will never know they way things are.

One last thing. You stated some have reconciled after much worse. Read my story on my profile and see if you dont think that qualifies. But i did not R for A FEW YEARS AFTER THE D, and right from the beginning my wife did ALL the things she was supposed to and I still divorced her quickly. IU Hoosier is getting NOTHING from her but lies and deceit and refusaL to tell him anything other than what she gets caught lying about.

AGAIN, how do you try to R with that.

Posts: 3111 | Registered: Jun 20

02

Actually, a polygraph is not a bad idea. Even the mention of it could make her think twice about lying...if she is lying about that trip or since that trip.

I agree with everyone that MC is a waste of time and money at this point.

If you have a decent relationship with her family expose to her parents and siblings and a few close mutual friends.

I would do this today.

Otherwise she gets to eternally cake eat and you are in limbo hell imo.

Any legitimate counselor would see her as acting beyond irrational. And, one hopes, would, question her on her motives. That questioning would occur in counseling. No counselor worth his/her license would suggest that he go along with her " plan" to explore her feelings for OM.while passively sitting on the sidelines.

Exactly, which is why the moment she realizes this couples counselor is going to tell her that the only way to fix this is to drop the OM first she's going to drop couples counseling because she won't have any support for her idea of a M with fun on the side.

Waste of time.

I doubt she has told her current IC the truth. She's going to tell everyone her rewrite version until she finds additional "unbiased" support for it. Her current "open marriage" buddy, possibly other friends on that Mexico trip, and captain canada are supporters if her rewrite.

My question is where the hell is the remorse?

As far as I know it generally follows behind realized consequences.

Craig,

The polygraph at this point is the ONLY WAY he is going to get the truth and know what the hell all of this is about on all of this thing. I'll bet my life she will NEVER agree to that. And that in itself is the true answer.

IU Hoosier can know what to do by forcing the issue on that and it will be over one way or the other in less than an hour.

Jduff, not only is she not telling IC the truth, according to IU Hoosier she is not even really discussing it.

We don't know how cerebral his wife is, but a couple years ago, in difficult times, my wife got me to go on a website called Polyamory.com. This is exactly what i think IU Hoosiers wife wants now. She does NOT WANT TO MAKE A CHOICE, and if you had her in counseling she would tell you she has so much love for both IU Hoosier and OM that she could manage both relationships, especially the OM is not local. Unfortunately, believe it or not, there are a lot of idiot therapists that buy into this as a viable option. It is a fairly popular concept among the "academic" set, and a lot of women are drawn to it and feel good because then it is not cheating. my guess is the toxic girlfriend has some kind of relationship like this.

Unfortunately, at this point, WE ARE ALL SPECULATING. All we do know is he has an unremorseful wife who is convinced that if she holds on long enough that she may win and have her cake and eat it to.

Unless IU Hoosier agrees to back down, I simply don't know why we are all talking about therapy if NC is the first and non- negotiable requirement

Until IU Hoosier gives us ANY INDICATION he believes that might happen, either he eats more crap or he makes a stand.

[This message edited by Badhurt at 12:02 PM, June 4th (Wednesday)]

Not a waste of time as IUH will know without a doubt that this M cannot be saved unless he acquiesces in her fantasy of being married and having a lover who patiently waits for her, too. At joint counseling, she'd be in the position of having to admit that's what she wants whether by agreeing its true or simply failing to reply to the very pointed question.

My comments are bases on the admission that he'd like to save the M. She suggested counseling, and as long as the chosen counselor isn't as screwed up as the trial separation one, what's to be lost by taking her up on her offer. As poker players say, call and raise.

Schadenfreude,

And what if the therapist asks that pointed question and determines it needs more appointments to resolves. He just lives with her in contact with OM during this period.

Then he bails it's that simple.

BTW, what's a polygraph going to tell him? Whether she fucked him in Mexico or elsewhere? I don't think that's the issue right now. If the M is over, it's moot. If she agrees to stop her insane infatuation, then it could bee an issue, along with why did she lie to him. He says he's convinced it was a kiss/make out session. To me, that's an A if my wife does it with a relative stranger. Why is she clinging onto it is the present issue.

There is really no need to speculate. I think what IUH heard on the VAR the other night could answer all of the questions.

The VAR could answer the questions but it has not so far.

Whether or not she fucked him in Mexico or since is important right now because IU Hoosier has said if he finds out that she was lying or if she runs to him physically now it is OVER period. We cannot decide it is not important when he made those statements.

Speaking of what IS important. Dont you think that is there is any time she will be asking this POSOM to come down here it will be this week end with all the stress she is also under. I have suggested to IU Hoosier that since he has not put a GPS device under her car, that unless she is in his sight this week end he is under a real threat of something real bad happening and that he should seriously consider a PI this week end if he can afford it. To me, that is a better investment than a therapist given her stonewalling on NC>

Here's where I am right now:

I feel like I know everything right now. The only thing I'm not sure of is if it was just "kissing" or if it was more. From what I have read in emails/texts and heard from VAR, that was it. I have heard convos and seen texts where my wife is talking to her best friend on how bad the things the other girl did to her husband by sleeping with this guy. My wife is deeply in a fog where she doesn't think this EA is just as bad and just as hurting, but I do think it wasn't anything more physical thank making out. She told me she didn't know if she could stoop talking to him, which is the same thing she told her friend days earlier. Last night, she told me she was going to stop talking to this POS until we decide if we will work. She wants to go to both IC & MC (told me I could pick the MC).

I know I have no way of trusting her about if she starts talking to him again, but don't think a polygraph would do much help in this situation. I already know she thinks she has feelings for this guy. I already know she has been sexting and talking while partaking in an EA. The only thing I need/want to know right now at this point is if she's stopped talking to the OP. A polygraph would help me confirm that if we did it in 2-3 weeks where I can ask the question "have you had any contact since Monday".

I'm going to go to MC with her as long as she says she's not talking to OP. She did tell me Tuesday morning when I asked that she talked to OP, so there was really the first time she came out with it right away when I asked the question.

She did say last night that every time I gave her the ultimatum of stop talking to him or we are done, she would feel more trapped and it drive her to him. I know this is total BS and called her out on it. At this point, I have no reason to trust her, but I'm going to keep the D process going and go to MC. The second she tells me it I find out they communicaed, I'm moving out that day.

I have told her Brother in law, who will tell his wife. So her family will all know in the next couple days.