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Just saw your post on his FB page does he reveal where he works do some digging.

is using him as a crutch when she feels upset about us.

This is really wayward twisty thinking! She is using him when she is upset about your relationship. What is the most major issue in your marriage right now? Her continued relationship with this guy!

Will she write out e NC letter with you and let you mail it?

I looked at his Facebook page last night and it looks like he's single.

I am guessing there are more than a few BW's on here that found their WH's Facebook page made them look single also.

IU Hoosier

This is already starting out troubling. First, the guy lives in Canada. Broken Black Bird hit it right. Who the fuck cares whether he is married, divorced, or very likely singe. The major problem in your marriage right now is your wife's still refusal to really want to be done with this guy. You are entering marriage therapy in a threesome and it because your wife cannot get herself to write a simple fucking no contact letter with teeth or her refusal to make the fucking call again with you sitting there. You rightly got exercised and mad as hell when she said that crap, but if she cannot bring herself to do that how the hell can you believe she is going to stay NC for months or weeks.

Unless she appears with posts on his facebook with pictures or he on hers, now you are going to waste some time or energy worrying about whether he is single. You better assume he is and spend your energy watching your wife.

You said you feel helpless to track her and watch her. Well, if you feel helpless, she wins again.

So how about some of these steps BEFORE MC starts:

(1) another NC e mail that you read and a phone call that you listen to

(2) instead of relying on her word to block him, which can be undone in a moment, how about changing the damm phone number. That way if there is any contact found by getting the records from the phone company, the SHE HAD TO INITIATE IT.

(3) Ditto for her e mail address. This is called transparancy and you are not getting it. You are getting what she decides to give you.

(4) Does she have an I Phone. You can track where that is easily.

(5) Does her phone have Instagram, or any other social media apps that you do not have the passwords for. Then change that ASAP.

Of course nothing is perfect but the goal is to make it more difficult for him if HE truly is the problem, which I doubt. YOUR WIFE IS THE PROBLEM!

You need to put a GPS on her car, and let her know you expect her to let you know her whereabouts if she deviates from her normal routine. the alternative is that you go to counseling not having a friggin clue what she is up to except what she tells you. You really going to feel secure with that.????

If she thinks that is not fair, too fucking bad. You dont think it fair that she wants a boyfriend

Stop focusing on worrying about him and sitting there and letting her tell you how wonderful he is. The MC's job is to pull that shit out of her. You need to know what she is going to do to heal your marriage.

And you need to ask her how she intends on knowing if he is still even going to be interested in her during this process.

Your ace in the hole is the lie detector test and if at some point you do not use it you are cliff walking without a parachute.

You CAN keeo track of her much better than you think if you put in the effort and she wants you to, which is questionable.

Who the fuck cares whether he is married, divorced, or very likely singe.

Because IUH would like to see his wife out of the fog.

And one of the ways to get the WW out of the fog is to tell them, yea, this OM is married. That usually breaks the fog pretty quick.

Hopefully, telling his BIL will break the fog.

While in the fog, there is not a hell of a lot a BH can say to get through to his wife to end the stupidity.

Craig , IU Hoosier has already looked at the FB and stated he is pretty sure he is single. And right now she is getting what she wants , time, space, and not a lot of proving accountAbility. What's the hurry for her to come out of dog unt she believes it is ready over if she screws up again. What shod she belle over that now. He has told her that twice before and now she is in MC with her boyfriend still waiting

. It should not be hard to finalize if he is single, my bet he is.

So them he has to get her out of fog some other way

And one of the ways to get the WW out of the fog is to tell them, yea, this OM is married. That usually breaks the fog pretty quick.

Really? That hasn't been my reading experience here. In fact, the experience I've seen work more often than not is kicking them off the fence. Not waiting around until they maybe might decide to end the fantasy affair on their own.

Really?

Yes really.

If his wife believes this OM in Canada is some KISA, than yes, finding out he has lied to her and is married would knock her right off.

This is not like a PA going on. This is some kind of long distance EA. As far as I know. This seems like some kind of romance novel EA.

IU Hoosier

Like someone said, therapist is like NCAA tournament, one and done. You need to decide what YOU need the answers to in order to want to move forward., You are paying for this and if you are sitting there and feel like you are going to walk out of there not finding out what you want to, then just bail out.

I think you should make it clear that unless you make some progress, meaning that you feel she is starting to detach from him, that you are calling it off. I CANNOT believe that you think you have unlimited time here before she breaks the NC unless she comes out of this fog in ways that you can see.

Many waywards lie to the therapist and continue with AP while they are in therapy.

If the therapist does not make you feel like they are going to not condone what she is doing regardless of the reason, you need to bail. Why she has done this DOES NOT matter if she refuses to stop unless you agree to let her have her boyfriend and you.

You have to have a time limit in mind without telling her that you can last with this other guy hanging over your head, waiting for her to drop the axe on you. Unfortunately that is where this is at now.

You will have her in an environment where she cannot dodge your questions. Do not let her babble and try to turn this around that it is your fault.

And if in a very short time she cannot be convinced that what she has and is doing is absolutely wrong and that it is an affair just like her friend banging the other guy, then this is hopeless.

If his wife believes this OM in Canada is some KISA, than yes, finding out he has lied to her and is married would knock her right off.

This is not like a PA going on. This is some kind of long distance EA. As far as I know. This seems like some kind of romance novel EA.

We don't know what his wife believes. It doesn't seem as if she is willing to tell him either.

We also don't know if it is a PA. We only know what someone known to lie has said. She isn't exactly the epitome of honesty and truthfulness.

If it is all fantasy, all the worse. That would mean that whatever her relationship with the Canadian is, it is ALL fantasy. Finding out he is married won't kill that fantasy. Heck, knowing SHE is married doesn't kill the fantasy. She'd just fantasize that he'll leave his wife for her. What does she have to lose? Her marriage? She doesn't seem to think she will.

We don't know what his wife believes. It doesn't seem as if she is willing to tell him either.

seem to think she will.

She is only telling him what she wants to. Your post is spot on Broken BlackBird. Everything now rests on either good snooping, luck or her

integrity.

[This message edited by Badhurt at 8:12 PM, June 4th (Wednesday)]

She did say last night that every time I gave her the ultimatum of stop talking to him or we are done, she would feel more trapped and it drive her to him. I know this is total BS and called her out on it.

Glad you called her on this nonsense. She is using that as a scare tactic to get you to let her continue in her fantasy and keep you hanging while she "decides" if she wants to stay married. It's manipulation and blame-shifting. "See, you DROVE me to this with all of your ultimatums." Nonsense!

I still believe there is, at the very least, a burner phone. Another SI member (long ago) mentioned looking for the CHARGER, rather than the phone. The charger is smaller and easier to hide, and likely will be hidden in your house while she keeps the burner phone with her when she goes to work. If memory serves, the other member found the charger hidden deep in her H's closet, and the phone was actually hidden right inside the attic access panel that was, conveniently in his closet. IDK - more food for thought and maybe time to really look around for a charger rather than a phone.

I have mixed feelings about MC at this point, because I honestly think she's using that as a stall tactic. She's still trying to keep you in the M while she "decides" if she wants to stay. It WOULD be interesting to see how one session goes - if the MC takes her to task and YOU can also get a feel for how she is "presenting" this.

Were you able to get to the VAR and hear the convo she had with OM at 1 AM while driving around??? THAT, I think, would be very telling.

Hang in there, Hoosier and keep posting.

IU Hoosier

I hope you are reading these posts from these other people. So far no one thinks you are getting a good deal here . You got the bull shit last night and you have accepted it even though you called her on it. Given her history of lying to you what has she offered you to make her accountable. Nothing but her word . I just can't understand why you are not demanding more from her regarding transparency. She does not know about the VAR so she has given you nothing.

You believe she is just going to block him he just accepts that with no more explanation and you are clear for MC.

You have told her one more mess up and she is done. You've told her that twice before.

I agree how she presents this will be interesting . And I hope you are not having any bed time conversations with her about him because all you are getting is what she wants you to know.

Stay as strong as possible and please increase your methods of snooping. Use the people here who know how to do it. They can help you if you let them

I dont trust her anymore, but I also don't know how much more transparent she can be with me. She has given me access to all her email accounts, both phones, & social media sites like Fscdbook. She has given me answers to all the questions (lies or not).

I agree, I wouldn't know if there was a burner phone, but I have looked everywhere and haven't seen one.

Not sure what other questions I need answered right now. I don't think she knew this guy before or her friend. I don't think it was anything more than make out sessions and a lot of sexting (both will need to be dealt with after we decide if this is something I want to work out.

She told me she would like to start going to see a MC ASAP and has given me the option to pick them out myself.

Here are my two options as of now as I see them (both include the D papers continue as is):

1) accept she has stopped talking to him & go to MC, while I continue to snoop looking for contact.

2) Decide she's still talking to him and not go to MC. It's over then

Right?

Last night she told you she could not break up with him on phone or e mail.. You got pissed. So when she last communicated with him her A was still on because she admitted she could not do it.

How can you monitor her work phone at her office . You can't.

You are committed to the therapy

Get in there ASAP I guess and don't back off. That is my best advice to you at this point.

You MUST get her off this fence and the therapist must be fully aware this is NOT to get you to accept what is happening

I think you're right and I would do what you are doing.

If you still love your wife, I would go to MC.

as I've said and others, there has to be NC otherwise the MC will be pointless. How do you know if she's keeping NC? You check, but essentially you don't know for certain. Your gut will tell you if she's still in contact.

I don't see any value in screaming or yelling or throwing her clothes on the lawn unless you've simply had enough. The threats only had partial effect on her. Her continued clinging to this POSER when all they did was kiss, (yes, I think it's possible that they only kissed, strange, but possible) seems to indicate some sort of issues she's working through. so go to MC. Since you get to pick one, make sure you screen them. Tell them the back story. see how they react. Pick someone that sees things your way.

maybe there's other issues? For example, does she want children and you are refusing? That's the kind of thing that causes a woman to question things. I'm not suggesting that's it, but I'm suggesting there may be some underlying issue here. And this POSER doesn't sound that special. He's a got a toddler with a girlfriend? I don't know the guy but so far he doesn't sound like a stand up guy to me. And if ALL she did was kiss, and yet despite the thought of divorcing she's still clinging to this contact? just seems like somethings off inside her head. MC would be good.

[This message edited by mike7 at 9:37 PM, June 4th (Wednesday)]

Yes. If she's promised no contact (not just "stop talking") as a precondition to MC, and violates that, you would be wasting your time except as an investigative tool. But this isn't an academic inquiry, is it?

Her only reason to contact him would be an NC communication to which you should be a witness.

I don't know your living situation but at minimum hard 180 would be in order until there was physical separation. There would be nothing to discuss but divorce-related issues. Let her run to him, but don't pay the bills for it. I'm sure you have this figured out already. Hard 180 if she won't go NC, I meant to say.

Any news on the VAR front? You should find out so you'll know where she's coming from for MC purposes. Do the old "compare and contrast" technique I'm sure you survived at IU. I'd be tempted to bring it with me to MC to play should she flat out lie. Play it, ask for rational explanation, then leave. Unless, of course, you drive separately, in which case I'd be more tempted to leave it in her car to hear the pre and post communication, if any.

Badhurt is 100% right on this point: you can't continue to live with her the way you are doing. Being Sherlock Holmes all the time has to be wearing on you given everything else you're facing.

Imagine where you'd be if you hadn't prepared the D papers -- I suspect those are the only thing that's made her think rationally at all.

Good luck to you.

[This message edited by Schadenfreude at 9:46 PM, June 4th (Wednesday)]

Glad you said IF it is something YOU still want to work out . She needs to understand she is on trial here not you.

If you can hd that attitude it will help you

Good luck

We all want you to come out of this either way with your dignity and self esteem intact

I can tell you are very conflicted, and keep getting contradictory information. Here are my observations and feedback, for whatever they are worth:

1. Trust is gone. Your life is consumed with this. Totally understandable. Trust isn't forthcoming with a very remorseful WS.

2. Its probable she only kissed this guy. For a guy she "only" kissed she is considering throwing away her marriage, or is unsure of her feelings. This by her own admission. (kissing the guy is PA).

3. She is asking for MC now, but given (2) I don't see an indication of commitment.

4. She agreed to NC, but has been unable to keep this promise. Even with you knowing about this, she seems like she is "weighing" options.

5. She sees your marriage commitment as an "Ultimatum". WTF? With a threat that you are driving her to OM? Hell yes its an ultimatum. A vow, a promise, with it or against it, friend or enemy, BLACK and WHITE. I read her waffling "feelings" as her checking out, and wanting a plan B. A high degree of mania on her part IMO.

I am usually very pro-R. But indecision is a decision in this arena. It doesn't sound like she is on board. Trust is hard to recover, but you and her have to take some baby steps. If she can't minimally commit to NC, that's HER decision, and you should see that for what it is. If she is breaking that promise, you have every right to not trust her, which begs the question: what do YOU want to do? It takes both to R, but only one not to.

Remember, we only see what you post here, so you have the most information on where your M stands, and more importantly, where YOU see it going . My advice is OVER communicate if you really want to R. Otherwise, maybe not if you need to build a D case. Leverage any and all support you can from your and/or her family. IC may be more valuable than MC.

Keep in mind that this WILL play out, and however it goes, you will eventually get pas this. You have to move forward, with or without her, and she should absolutely accept that. That has to be your mantra right now.

Like the rest of those reading your posts, I can feel your pain.

IUH,

Let me tell you a little story:

On Dday, I confronted WH. He admitted PA with coworker. I asked him to leave. He moved in with relative in the neighborhood.

We did start MC a few days later. WH kept saying that he wanted to R, but at the same time he kept contacting OW.

HUNDREDS OF TEXTS & CALLS back & forth for months, before & after Dday.

After Dday, while we were separated, I even followed them at lunchtime, on my days off, & caught them having lunch together twice.

OW changed her phone #. After a couple of days , I noticed so many calls/texts to this new #--- I called it from an unlisted #--- & she answered.

WH & I were sitting in MC that night. I asked WH (who was saying he wanted to R)

IN FRONT OF THE MC :

"Have you had any contact with OW?"

WH: "No, of course not."

Me: (taking out printed copy of phone record showing 20 calls/texts that very same day to OW's new confirmed phone #):

"Then what's this?"

Its called cake-eating.

A WS will do this for as long as you will let them.