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You have got to get the VAR from when she left the house before you start MC. You need to know what she was telling him. And get an idea of what he said . She had to call from the car at 1am.

People create false FB all the time and she could have separate email address.

Try to panic her into a mistake by calmly telling her you are planning to get all the phone records from the phone company.

ANYTHiNG you can do to put more pressure on her will increase the chances that if she is lying to you she will in her haste make a mistake or call him. Unless you buy into the shit that that would drive her to him it can help you. How about out of the clear blue sky tell her you and she are switching phones. He does not know your phone number so if any calls come from Canada when you get the call log

I would also very calmly tell her that the first time you do not feel she is being totally honest with you she will either take a polygraph or move of out your home. Then she has something hanging over her head just like you have the OM hanging over your head.

No yelling . Just let her know you are going to aka but not all on her terms.

You MUST have something that scares her enough to either be honest or make a mistake.

You CANNOT call asleep at. The switch here. And for heavens sake get the GPS tracker on her car. She can get to see him by taking a few hours off from work. If she is paid by he hour look at her pay stubs for any time off she has taken.

You are in the real danger zone now because if she is still lying to you it is going further underground

If you do not operate under the assumption that she is GUILTY until proven innocent you are going to get burned again

Ok, I'm at that point. IU, brother, given your WW's lack of remorse, you're looking at the rest of your life. VARS, monitored E-mail and cell phone. Do you want to live your life like this?

She, not you, needs to step up to the plate.

Strength

I don't really see the motive of trying to put more pressure her. She's lying? OK Divorce! Is that what you want? She said she wants MC and she said she won't contact the OM. If she does again, it's over.

she admits she's been in contact.

She's saying she won't while they go to MC.

She knows it's over if she continues.

Why ramp up pressure? To discover a lie? Their marriage is already on a knife edge. All she has to do is call the other guy now. You don't have to discover that she's been lying.

If she's been lying? So what? So they divorce. They're already on that path. IU is trying MC to see if there's something to save.

I don't see the point. He's got a path. Either they make it or they don't. He'll know by her actions and by his gut.

She all of a suede wants MC right away so OM is sure to still be there. Why not make her stay NC for a period like two or three weeks while he interviews MC.

She won't want that even though he agrees to MC because she wants all her options still there. Why all of a sudden she wants to rush to MC immediately.

The last four weeks have bed on her timetable.

If she cannot have NC for a little bit why spend the money. Don't know why with what she has done you advocate doing it all her way and accommodating her to keep her in comfort zone.

i'm not advocating all her way.

he insisted on NC in order to go to MC. I advocate that as well.

what more do you want?

I want him to do everything humanly possible to insure that he catches her if she is lying again BEFORE he invests time, heartache, and his health. You are right he eventually will know. Better sooner than later if she is lying.

His gut has been wrong so far from the beginning because how devastating this has been. That is why it went on so long before he got to where he is now.

You and I are not arguing about NC or MC. We disagree on whether to let her calmly go about her business while IU Hoosiers has to do all the wondering and detective work. And I hope you are not saying just trust her completely and get another DDay that he had no idea was coming

trust her? Oh hell no!

And for what it's worth, I don't have all the answers. This is an interesting case. I'm just advising what I would do based on what I've read. I may be wrong.

Normally I'm the first to recommend filing if the WS refuses NC. But i think this is an interesting case. She still must go NC if there is to be any progress. And I would certainly be keeping tabs. I would probably still be in detective mode. But I don't think I could refuse if my wife said she would go NC and wanted MC. I would certainly refuse if she was in open contact. Then it would obviously be a stalling tactic.

Mike

We r in agreement. I a just advocating a much more aggressive detective mode for IU Hoosiers protection. I am not telling him not to do the MC. I am telling him he has not done everything he could do to protect himself while this is going on. Most of the people following this, including you I believe do not think she is fully committed to anything at this point but buying herself time. This will not be a comfortable time for IU Hoosier so why should it be comfortable for her.

She needs to believe that she is not going to fool him anymore and he is going to insure that and that she is going to have to alter her behavior for this to work.

Why would she believe that now? She has crapped all over him for the last month.

Everyone posting here knows that addition D Days are more devastating in many cases than the original one. All I am advising him to do is to make it impossible for her to get away with anything or think she can.

That might just make her tell him she wants OM. Would that not be better than investing his soul in her anymore.

no argument from me. i know you're just trying to help him too.

personally I would find it infuriating if my WW had established a "relationship" with another guy and was refusing to end it. I can't imagine I would have much patience.

I may seem strange in my response, but I think you should consider THE BIG GUNS.

Tell her how much you love her and how you could not have imagine life without her, but you are not a doormat. Pack some suitcases and LEAVE.

Give her something else to think about besides a guy from Canada! ay?

Please disregard my previous reply. I obviously need to keep reading in the thread. SORRY!

oKAY....I'm ready now. I've got a million things I want to say but I wont.

I too had a husband who was "just a kiss". His entire story made amazingly good sense AND...he told me "the truth" right out of the blue. He said he just could not live with the guilt and he had drinks with a woman one night while away on business and he was wrong! And he was so horrified by his behavior blahdeee blahdee blah.

So fast forward 2 years YES I SAID 2 YEARS! The one part of the story that I could not make sense of was the following: HE KNEW HER NAME-FULL NAME...AND HE KNEW HER DAUGHTER'S FULL NAME AND THE GIRL'S AGE AND WHERE THIS WOMAN'S BUSINESS WAS LOCATED (In another country). I never not once told him I found it very strange to remember that kind of info after ONE night of drinks and a few kisses.

Facebook got better and voila! there she was...right there on the facebook 2 years later. So I had to be sure it was her so I verified that she hung out at this particular hotel-hubby said she used hotel for swimming and working...GREAT MEMORY HUH? So I send the whore an email FROM MY EMAIL ADDRESS and this dumbass slut's response is "OH IS THIS LIMPDICK FROM MY <HUSBAND'S COMPANY NAME HERE>! REMEMBER this email was sent 2 years AFTER A NIGHT OF DRINKS where he remembered a ton of personal info about her. Apparently it was something in the drinks because she was having the same memory magic that a few drinks and one kiss brings.

I knew then that I had NO idea what the truth of my life was. I was in shock SHOCK. I nearly died from the aftermath literally. So after years and $$$ I now know the truth of my life. As far as I can verify I have not had a real husband in 8 years. I cannot verify the 13 years before that.

So why in hell would I tell you this old story? to very gently get tough with you. If I could give you a strong stablizing hug I would.

Please forgive me if I hurt you. The truth is that your gut knows the truth. Her response has not even resembled anything you would have LIKED to have seen from her. You got NOTHING. She did not beg. She did not cry. She didnt even get angry as if to be scared of your response. When someone reacts in control it is BECAUSE THEY ARE.

So consider this..why is she still in control?

Well somewhere in her life she has learned to control the flight or fight response. ALL serial cheaters have learned how to control it. Some lawyers, psychologist, and all mobsters do it as well. It is studied through interrogation video.

My second point...the "good" friend. The friend that was "pissed" at her about the other guy. The friend she is now telling how AAAAWFUL the other friend was <whispered: that ole slut friend> how she was so evil to her husband by screwing around and why she does not even speak to that old slut friend anymore

And she has only seen that guy once but gosh...she is CERTAIN that the guy's name from Mexico is ERIC oooor nooo maybe that was CHARMING! YEAH that's whom she met in Mexico...Prince Eric Charming

Okay so how is our high school/teenage girl fairy tale going? Let's summarize the story she is creating. @e have uhm Hypercontrolled Queen Guinevere speaking to her lady in waiting as she extoles the virtues and virility of her King but oh gosh...she met Prince Eric Charming <sigh heard from lady in waiting> and whatever shall she do? She has such love for her King and the virtue of Virgin Mary but he is such a charming prince. The magic in the air is so very powerful. An evil sorcerer has blessed their love in evil. She is drawn to Prince Charming as surely as a moth to a dragon's flame <as good friend faints and marvels at all the magic of unrealized loves> And now Guenivere's behavior is now forgiven by the ladies in waiting because she is a victim...yes! A VICTIM OF MAGICAL LUST! Poor poor Gueneviere...its all so sad and magical at the same time <and good friend runs to the burning hamburger helper as she wishes that SHE had met prince charming on the beach!> Oh OH...and dont forget she had to slay the evil slut friend as virginal sacrifice.

So now YOUR wife...Guinevere...is no longer the Kingdom slut and she retains her royal reputation with her lady in waiting and any mutual friends while CONVINCING the good King Arthur (you) that it was indeed a single kiss...... when in reality it was very likely not. Why do I think that? Because in the fairytale that SHE is writing for you and her friend/family...she was loyal & loving to you whole heart & soul. She had a pristinely innocent one kiss WEEK IN MEXICO horrified by evil slut's whoring around. She was so happy to be home with her king. In fact, she was so grateful to be rescued from those sex fiends...safely back in the arms of her King...hidden from the evil magic...that she decided to send a few naked photos to prove it....but of course she would ONLY give naked pics to prince eric charming...riiiight?

My next point...I think the majority of people here would verify that the types of reactions common to people with real remorse is one that includes the phrase, "OMG Im SO SORRY I DIDNT MEAN IT I SWEAR IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN AGAIN I WILL DO ANYTHING ANYTHING I TELL YOU I WILL QUIT MY JOB I WILL CUT MY BOOBS OFF I WILL ACTUALLY IRON YOUR SHIRTS EVERY DAY I DID NOT MEAN IT FORGIVE MEEEEEEEEEE

Followed by what many here will happily tell you about: HYSTERICAL BONDING and yes it can have its benefits but Im sure I would never know!

The final point and the one that is the deal breaker for me was her request to stay in a hotel. She quickly said "oh no no no...I dont need a night out of the kingdom....uhhmm but maybe I'll go hang out at kingdom's horse stables for a few weeks...or even a month? Just to get the ole royal thoughts in order...they are all mussed...dear"

So all kidding aside you are probably beginning to understand my point.

The "good" friend is being gaslighted just as badly as you are dear. You simpy cannot believe what is in front of you.

Your wife is engineering her environment...WELL.

The reason she simply sat with no reaction in the beginning was because she was in unPLANNED territory. She had not expected to be uncovered in that manner. She did not respond because she did not want to make a mistake.

Take the naked photographs for example. You have 3 choices:

1. Naked photos from the virginal wife are really no big deal as long as she only sends them to Prince Charming.

2. Uhm a not so virginal wife is very well accustomed to the flirtations and games of internet/real life infidelity where phones, computers, and photographs become surrogates for actually being there and this was NOT THE FIRST TIME SHE HAD FOUND PRINCE MAN OF THE MOMENT. If the photographs ARE her first time WITH THIS GUY then she has done it before (does she send to you maybe?) Because of the hotel request I suspect she does it ALOT and he is married living nearby. why?

When her timeline included "tomorrow after the counselor"? Uhm did you watch her go into the counselor's building? I found it incredibly odd that she asked YOU to find a MC? Psychologist ALWAYS recommend the marriage counselors because there is a PURPOSE to MARRIAGE COUNSELING AND IT SHOULD BE ADJUNCTIVE TO THE INDIVIDUAL THERAPY.

In the cheater's world it is more likely she wanted to talk to "him" and find out a way out of "this mess." There is nothing to consider when you get caught in an affair. If you WANT your husband you move heaven and earth to make him happy. If you do not want your husband you start easing your way out of your marriage and prolonging the agony for the betrayed but the comfort of the infidel. When she said "Tomorrow after I think about it "YOu should have picked up your car keys and LEFT...stay gone a week. Tell family and friends where you are...but she should have heard CRICKETS from you. If she has the AUDACITY to ask for time then get on with it!!!

I've said a lot. I find myself wanting to apologize because I remember when I was you. I wanted desperately to believe and I wasted YEARS believing his calm, cool exterior and perfect stories but nagging little misfit details.

Now advice...because she has openly said, "i cant just tell him goodby with a phone call blah blah blah She is feeding you a classic virgin fairytale. She is relying on your manly vision of his uber feminine wife. She KNOWS you dont see the cheater/manipulator. I bet she does not even see herself as a cheater..or maybe she does. The point is if a person AAALMOST cheats and spouse finds out YOU SAVE YOUR MARRIAGE...not some vague one kiss person!!! If you are firmly entrenched outside your marriage then you use D-day to get out of the marriage. But if you are playing around on the side like a f&cking game THEN YOU FIGHT LIKE HELL FOR YOUR MARRIAGE when you are discovered...SHE DID NONE OF THAT!!!! IT IS BIZARRE

Listen...the time will come when you sit straight up in the bed and realization washes over you. Whether she is there or not or whether y'all are working on the marriage wont matter. You seemed so uhm purposeful when you came here asking for insight. You are not likely a man who would feel empowered by having been a cheated upon husband who is the last one to find out.

She said the famous, "I love you but Im not in love with you." and "I need time" and "It was one kiss" and "just naked pics but first time i swear" and "I cant he is my soul mate after one kiss" SHE IS HAVING AN AFFAIR. Now there is a possibilty the mexico guy could be a SECOND guy whom she is using to throw you off the track of the real affair partner. Try looking at your situation through that scenario and see if it clears up any questions you have about her behavior. Do not use her conversations with good friend as an indication of her affair related behaviors and tactics. She is trying to save her reputation with a nice person AND save her affair AND try to keep you calm and happy so you dont mess up her playhouse.

Really...you just dont jump up and send naked photos to a virtual stranger if you are worried about your husband JUST uncovering your very bad behavior. NOT NORMAL

Lack of emotional response on DDay NOT NORMAL

Asking for hotel separation NOT NORMAL

so much is wrong with the scenario she is writing for you guys. And who is benefitting from her writing? You? nope you are the one walking around with divorce papers as y'all live as husband and wife. Her? Sure...does she SEEM particularly upset? like her world is coming to an end? If she isnt acting like she is scared for her future THEN...

And can I just say it is rare that a post gets this much activity. People are drawn to you because you seem to have such a calm, respectful manner. If she wakes up you may fix things. But if you want to get away from this there is NO doubt you will be okay. You WILL be happy again. You will find a partner in life. Dont let your petty fears interfere in your nightmare. If the implications for her behavior are too big to manage dont make excuses for her actual behavior...just leave and make a fresh start.

[This message edited by angerisme at 2:40 PM, June 7th (Saturday)]

that's a pretty good post. I think you hit on what everyone else senses. She just isn't acting normal. Something is amiss. You might be right. your story sounds very believable.

I've also thought that maybe this vacation in Mexico, where she got a taste of single life, has opened her eyes and now she's thinking that she just doesn't want to be married anymore. i don't know.

Hang in there IUHoosier. I'm sorry you're going through this. You don't deserve this shit.

[This message edited by mike7 at 5:07 AM, June 5th (Thursday)]

The vAR from the other night. If she is not on it you have to find the burdened phone, because at 1 am how did she talk to him . It also means she will be talking to him all during this. You need to realize how important this is to know that

IU Hoosier

When you set up the MC appointment, calmly sit her down and tell her that if she has any ideas that she is going to have you accept her having a boyfriend that there is no sense going . That you are going to see if you can ever rebuild trust in her.

After the appointment is when she will call h, and until proven otherwise you MUST assume she will and is still lying to you.

With the week end coming up what is she telling you her plans are. She is stressed more than the last three weeks from all of this and if you fall asleep you will be on for a terrible surprise.

Remember what YOU said. That you do not believe a word she says right now. Do not forget that. Even those of us that are telling you to try the MC still think she is manipulating you.

Isn't it Occams Razor that teaches the simplest explanation is usually the right explanation?

Maybe there is a much simpler explanation. She wants out of the marriage, but isn't sure. She's good on psychobabble -- codependency-- without being coached on the use of that term. Maybe she's been self diagnosing?

If this, as long suggested by Mike7 is true, the lack of remorse, the lack of emotion, makes much more sense. Dudley Doowrong is just a bystander and convenient target in that event.

MC stil a valid investigative tool IMHO, however. IUH needs to know whether to cut his losses , and,an MC session will help him know.

I agree. I think it is that she does not want to be married anymore that drives her insanity. Her first response o. may 12 that she did not know if she loved him anymore. OM is the happy recipient of her emotions.

IU Hoosier, each week end you have not posted and come back with. Ad news on Monday. If possible and if you are still interested in advice you may want to rethink that.

I would think if she had any real interest in R she would be asking to spend some time with you, not away from you this week end. There will be you first clue. Don't call for the she needs space crap

We haven't talked about weekend plans yet. The VAR from the night she drive around at 1 AM was just her talking to this OP for about 30 minutes on how she didn't think she could talk to him anymore, even though she still wants to. His English was really broken, but he said some BS about loving her. She didn't say anything else really. Just the same stuff over and over.

And what did she say when he said he loves her.???

Well now that you know what he is telling her you know he probably will not give without a fight.

After hearing that you should be more concerned about this week end than ever

Grab her phone and see if his number is blocked when she is not expecting it

The reason i think it is important is that if she wants to be away from you with girlfriends, especially those that you know she will talk to, it means she wants to talk about HIM, not you. And if she is not out tying to connect with him her mental way of coping and pining for him will be to spend time talking all about her relationship with HIM to her girlfriends looking for understanding.

She should be talking about YOU.

[This message edited by Badhurt at 6:55 AM, June 5th (Thursday)]

The reason i think it is important is that if she wants to be away from you with girlfriends, especially those that you know she will talk to, it means she wants to talk about HIM, not you. And if she is not out tying to connect with him her mental way of coping and pining for him will be to spend time talking all about her relationship with HIM to her girlfriends looking for understanding.

She should be talking about YOU.