SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Does she say "I love you" without you saying it first?

Are you seeing any remorse?

Or is she just grieving the loss of her affair partner?

No husband should ever have to witness his wife grieve the loss of her affair partner!!!

So what more should I do? I'm all ready pushing as hard as I can without her jut shutting down. I'm going through with the D papers. I have the VAR. She says she's not talking to him, but then theeatens if I keep pushing, she might. Which I reply to with "then we are done and I will never talk to you again." She cries, blah blah

What do the D papers look like? You said you handed her "preliminary D papers" in a previous post. What exactly are those? Because she has made no move to get herself an attorney (from the sounds of it), so I'm going to assume you didn't SERVE her with divorce papers she had to respond to.

What did you give her?

How far along is the divorce? Has it been filed with the courts?

IU Hoosier

Everyone who has just posted has basically told you the same thing in different words. You asked yesterday if you could ever get back to the way your marriage was. Well, the answer to that one is NO under the current circumstances.

When you tell her you will never speak to her again she cries and then you melt. That should be followed by this statement.

THE NEXT TIME I HEAR YOU THREATEN ME WITH CALLING HIM WILL BE THE LAST. I would tell her you are NOT going to MC until your lawyer drawers up the final divorce papers. Then you will go to MC and that she IS going to get pressed and if that is going to make her call the POS then tell her to do it now so you can end all of this shit. You have to be at the end of your rope with all of this.

Again and again you have resisted becoming more intrusive in snooping on her, and here she has told you that she just might ruin to him if you piss her off and so you got mad.

She is going to blame you for everything that she does.

It is time for you to stop being Mr Nice guy and put your real gloves on.

if you believe she is going to keep her word on anything with her attitude you are dreaming. After the conversation you just relayed here, it might even happen tonight, so where the hell is she going to be tonight. ????

I disagree totally with Tom67 on leaving the house and not telling her where you are going. She will not give a shit and will use that as a reason to call the OM and then blame you.

You are asking what else can you do. IUH, sometimes the answer is NOTHING but divorce her. Let her move to Canada and see how she likes that (will not happen)

Do not count on her family either. She is their family and blood is thicker than water and she is their family.

How in the Lords name do you still want to be with someone who is treating you like this. Im sorry IU, it is beyond my comprehension.

In you initial thread when you caught her planning her little tryst we all told you to stop her from doing it. I am almost of the mind after watching what you have gone through that you might have been better off to just follow her with a PI and then you would have had the information that you need to end this thing.

You are going through slow torture here and it is going to effect your health

She really means it when she says she does not want a divorce. She threatens you and is ripping your guts out by the day and her Canadian is just waiting for you to say something she does not like,.

It's interesting, all the women who have posted know exactly what she is doing and have been trying to tell you she needs to feel the consequences not be coddled.

Move the divorce to the next step and stop telling us about her tears. I dont think anyone reading this thinks that she does not deserve to shed some tears as we watch you get manipulated.

I have never heard of anyone reconcilling successfully with someone who blatently threatens them like she has done to you.

Sorry for the 2X4 but please stiffen your resoplve not to get crapped on any more, and that means divorcing her if necessary.

She should be earning MC, not having you desparetly going. You want to sit there and listen to all her problems and why she is entitled to treat you like this or do you want to hear that she loves you and will do whatever is necessary to save your marriage. You ain't getting the second part of that statement.

IUH, I just copied & pasted an old post into a new thread for you to read, called:

"If you love them, divorce them"

[This message edited by mchercheur at 4:12 PM, June 6th (Friday)]

Badhurt I just want him to start the process of detatching and living his life.

And yes he is being too nice.

But being in the same house with her while she is grieving the loss of her affair partner isn't helping either.

Get the book "No More Mr Nice Guy"

And "Married Mans Sex Life Primer"

The limbo you are in now sux.

Perfect time to do this. Go get a copy of "Not Just Friends", then give it to her. Tell her "You want to know how I'm feeling right now? Read through this. It describes where I am exactly."

I agree with that. Have her read the book. See what her attitude is after that.

She continues to say you are pushing her to call him.

I would also ask her if he is calling her? If she says yes, ask her if you pushed him to call her also?

I have heard the exact same statement or excuse from my fww before also, she wanted something of her own. And I have read it many times from other WW's.

The wanting something of their own is common. And yes, that is when you read everyone else chime in, get a dog then. But it seems to be a common thread among WWs.

Tom,

The thing is. She has not lost her affair partner. She has not maintained NC with him for more than two or three days. She has flat out told IU Hoosier she could not and has not broken it off with him on the phone or e mail because it is too difficult.

Do you really think that if he just walks out and she is sitting there all night that she is not going to call him. The 180 stuff only works where the WW wants to reconcile. She wants to do what she wants.

Craig

Good point but if she says yes he called her, how does she know that if the phone number is blocked????

All these books are great books IUH but your spare time right now should be spent watching her like a hawk

[This message edited by Badhurt at 5:05 PM, June 6th (Friday)]

I had this pasted in my journal. It was written by LonelyHusband

If You Love Them, Divorce Them

Newbies - if you love them, and they are not remorseful, have a think about starting a divorce. OK, so this one is going to take a little explaining, because it's very counter intuitive and divorce would surely be the last things on our minds.

Here's your checklist

You

1. Feel your life has imploded

2. Are devastated

3. Cannot understand how to survive the next day

4. Desperately want to save the marriage

5. Believe you love your spouse

6. Have something in your gut telling you your spouse should be doing more

7. Feel like you would "know" if they were completely remorseful and just don't feel it.

Them

1. Are defensive

2. Do what you ask, but only because you get so upset.

3. Don't go above and beyond, don't amaze you with how much they do to help you

4. Get angry or defensive

5. Use any of the following

. I'm confused

. I don't know if I love you

. I need to find myself

. You're being too demanding

. I probably had the affair because you....

If they above rings true, divorce should at least be on your agenda of options.

Right then I suppose I'd better justify this.

Look, why would you stay married to such a person? not only did they devastate you, but they are continuing to hurt you. There's no reason to be married to a person like that! You want to be married to someone that protects you, treasures you, loves you, and makes you feel loved. The person you thought existed didn't. that person is selfish, cruel, heartless. They are a liar, an adulter. Who wants to be married to a loser like that? What they have done is perfectly reasonable grounds for divorce. so do it. Divorce them immediately.

You have to accept the reality of your wayward spouse's situation. They are confused about whom they love, whom they want to be with. The worst case scenario is that they will continue the affair, and because the affair is addictive, and makes them feel good, they will do this in all situations possible, no matter what the effect on you is. You are probably thinking that your situation is different. It really isn't. If the worst case scenario doesn't happen then your spouse is going to exist in a sort of limbo, not knowing where to turn. All this time your soul will be dying because you will not be able to comprehend that the person you love didn't come running back into your arms once you caught them or the affair was exposed. It does happen, but it's very, very rare. Much more likely is that you will both exist in a limbo, not knowing what will happen next, or how to move forward. The WS will be confused, and the BS will be utterly devastated. This shit needs to end, and it will ONLY end when the BS says it ends. If your WS says they need time, or distance, or space. If they say they are confused, they are lost, they "regret" the affair, or "reg that you got hurt" then they DO NOT GET WHAT THEY HAVE DONE TO YOU and will NOT get it until you put your foot down and say enough. It's terrible enough to be the victim of infidelity, but the sad reality is that somehow you have to dredge up the strength to fight for you spouse if you want them back, despite what they have done to you. Fighting means tough love. It means putting an end to their nonsense. It means waking them up to what they are about to realise. Or even letting them go if they do not wake up. It means instigating divorce proceedings.

Beginning divorce proceedings has a number of benefits for you

1. Self Respect.

Infidelity trashes your self respect. Claim some back by taking control of the situation. Now the relationship is taking a path YOU have defined, that YOU are in control of. As a new BS you will crave control, crave rationality. Beginning a divorce will give you this control.

2. A bullshit time limit

An unremorseful wayward spouse is a nasty piece of work. They will lie, manipulate, and continue to betray you. They will protect themselves and their lover at your expense, and the expense of any children. They will tell you everything you need to hear, but only when you drag it out of them in agony. They will be difficult, argumentative, angry and defensive. Basically, they are unpleasant people. Critically, they will CONTINUE to be unpleasant people until YOU do something about it. They will sit on the fence, wrapped up in their own feelings, whilst your soul dies. You may think that YOUR spouse is different. They arn't. beginning divorce proceedings puts a finite time limit on their bullshit. They can lie to you, make you feel like YOU are the bad guy, give you every excuse in the book as to why they are not stepping up and fixing the marriage, but the clock is ticking.When they clock expires, you are free of all teir bullshit and can start the healing process.

3. Vision

A BS's world is very dark. We wonder how to survive today, never mind tomorrow. There appears to be no future. We can see no life without misery. We can see no freedom, no light, no smiling, no joy. All ahead is dark. Start divorce proceedings. Now you have a future. It may not be the future you had ever hoped for, but it's a future. Sometime to aim for, something to plan for. Something that will force you to get some sleep so you can organise your life.

4. Healing

If you are with an uremorseful wayward spouse, things are going to get worse, not better. You are certainly not going to start healing. that happens when they become remorseful, or you are free of them.

so divorce the bastards. They are not worth being married to.

However.

Maybe. Just maybe. Maybe that pathetic excuse for a spouse isn't the limit of their potential. Maybe they have it within them to actually be the person you thought they were. Hell. Maybe they can be MORE than you or they ever thought. The wayward spouses on here who are remorseful are incredibly self aware, rounded human beings. They stand no nonsense. They examine themselves for their faults relentlessly. They make you want to stand up and applaud. They make you want to be a better man. Wouldn't it be nice if you were married to a person like that. THAT would be fucking awesome. Well, remember why you fell in love. you believe that person is worth more, or you wouldn't still be reading this post. Filing for divorce MIGHT just make them

1. Realise what they are about to lose

2. Take a long hard look at themselves

3. Recognise that their bullshit, lying, and manipulating is pointless, because the clock just keeps ticking.

there are countless tales on here, including my own, where nothing happened until the BS retook control of the relationship. The WS sat on the fence happily destroying the BS, wrapped up in their own little drama, UNTIL the BS decided they had had enough and took control.

So, you start divorce proceedings. what are the possible outcomes.

1. They sort themselves out and start to "get it"

Keep the proceedings going until you are damn sure you have someone who is remorseful, not someone who is just playing up to get you to stop. You can always restart the process. In the UK its awesome because there are several points where you can basically press the "pause" button, and then start it rolling again. However, if they really do realise what they have lost and start to fight for it, then you can kill the process. That's what happened for me, and I'm convinced it's what a lot of people need to be doing.

2. They get angry and leave

Wave them goodbye with a smile. Good riddance - all you have done is start a process you would have to have gone down in the end anyway, so all that's happened is that you have shortcutted the process, saved yourself from tolerating their craziness, and retaken control of your life. Hell, they may even come crawling back. It happens. what happens after that is of course, up to you.

3. They continue lying and cheating

Well, sounds like a good reason to divorce someone to me.

Look, I am VERY pro marriage. I believe that with a remorseful wayward spouse, and a forgiving Betrayed Spouse, marriages can be stronger and more fulfilling than they ever were before the affair, because neither partner is now taking the other for granted. Both are working at the marriage. I would rather get to that point without the agony of betrayal, but hey. However, I am NOT pro foggy remorseful spouse. It breaks my heart to read post after post from betrayed spouses who have just been stabbed in the heart and still have the courage to want to save their marriage, whilst their WS is still in foggy lala land. It's sickening. Nothing ever changed until the BS retakes control, so when I say "divorce them", what I really mean is "retake control of your life, and put time limit on the pain".

so, if you are with an unremorseful spouse, who is hurting you, think about divorcing them. It's an acknowledgement of the reality of the situation you have been forced into. It doesn't have to go the full term, but either way it's a win win situation.

People always say "dont make any rash decisions for six months". But that is assuming both people are back on board. If your spouse is still hurting you by lying, minimising, getting angry or defensive, then no-one expects you to put up with that for six months. you're being emotionally abused. Put a stop to it. Give it a time limit.

I love my wife with all my heart. However, I wish I had started divorce proceedings against her the moment I realised she was not remorseful. We might have made it, we might not, but I would not have been put through six weeks of hell that he left me far more traumatised than the original affair did. If you love them, then be prepared to let them go. It's your best shot at getting them back.

[This message edited by mchercheur at 5:05 PM, June 6th (Friday)]

He's not being indecisive unlike another poster here. She's not being remorseful or even particularly contrite. Is she sorry the tryst was disrupted? Maybe.

I would not put up with much discussion of other issues now such as the town she lives in. Collateral to whether the M survives.

Flat out do you want to remain married,to me or not? That is issue number one.

Then discussion of contact. It will focus her foggy mind on what is at stake.

If she waffles on remaining married, IUH will know the story. He'll,simply tell her that he is unwilling to remain married to someone who has somebody else in mind. Sorry, WW, but I guess it's true that things don't always work out like one hopes they would. And that's as emotional as I lett her see me if I were in his shoes.

I assume the D is progressing per courts calendar. IUH should know that approximate timeline.

But, at the center of it is whether WW wants to remain married,,and if so can she meet his requirements. That's all that matters right now.

I doubt she's thought that reconciliation will be a long, painful process. Too bad for her.

Good point but if she says yes he called her, how does she know that if the phone number is blocked????

All these books are great books IUH but your spare time right now should be spent watching her like a hawk

Questions asked in a normal, everyday way, out of the blue, can produce interesting answers. Is the phone blocked? Work phone would not be.

The book is for her to read, not IUH, though he can if he wants to.

After reading that book, she might actually start seeing some sense and she might stop and actually think before she says ridiculous statements like every time IUH says anything she might be pushed to call this OM.

From the tone of the last phone call she had with the OM, she doesn't really sound overly interested in this other guy.

Craig,

IUH specifically said she got JEALOUS when POS told her he would hang with his ex this week end. That hardly sounds uninterested to me. And if she was so uninterested, why cant she bring herself to call the OM up and tell him its over? With IUH standing there, and why is she willing to have her marriage end for some guy she is not that interested in.

For some reason, you want to keep making excuses for her and think the proper course is to plead do whatever she needs to be happy and for him to live like a mutt like he has had to do for the past month as long as he gets to MC. And you seem to feel he should not do anything other than what he is doing now to see if she is lying again when she has not gone more than a few days without contact with this guy

And i might add all over a supposed two day kiss only affair.

You are entitled to your opinion. How's he doing so far letting her call the shots and threaten him that she'll reach out to OM if pressed. Would you want to trade places with him right now.???

Hoosier

The only reason why my confrontation had the effect it did was because I didn't care anymore if the marriage was over. To me, the cheating took it to over. And I was fed up. And I had HAD IT. I was scary done. My husband got that message loud and clear - and he definitely was scared at how dead my voice was.

Have you had enough yet?

Her cavalier attitude only happens because you allow it.

Get quiet. Get scary quiet to trigger HER insecurities. You're insecure because you no longer have a marriage and your limbic brain knows it. So you're being careful around the problem in your life, hoping that somehow you can avoid pushing her out of the marriage.

Buddy - she's OUT OF THE MARRIAGE! She's still keeping you as her back-up plan. But make no mistake. OM is still on her mind and her fantasies and she's threatening you with it.

Forget about nicing her back. It's time to call her bluff and tell her, quietly with as few of words as possible that you are done. No marriage counseling. She's threatening you and you are not going to counseling under an infidelity threat. She's either committed to the marriage or she isn't.

Be DONE. It takes a while to get divorced and that's all the time she should have to show you how serious she is about being married to you.

[This message edited by k8la at 8:57 PM, June 6th (Friday)]

i guess i agree with K8la. I think this crap about if you bring it up it makes me feel more trapped is just that, crap. she's basically threatening you that if you keep asking, I'll contact him. really? you're threatening me with infidelity? she is only thinking about herself. she's choosing you at the moment because she realizes that's what's right for HER. She still isn't thinking about what she'd done to YOU. I think if you really got sick and tired of it, like K8la did, it would probably change the dynamic. but you have to do what you feel is right. I couldn't put up with watching my WW grieve the loss of her AP. that's fucking bullshit.

One afterthought here.

Do not fall for sympathizing for her "grieving" for her lost affair opportunity. Get hard hearted about that right now - like two weeks ago right now!

One more whimper or threat about contacting the OM and you shut the door. Firm. Soft. Locked. Make her work HARD to get that door open again.

Some might try to help you understand she's hurting? Bull! Anything she's feeling is self-inflicted selfishness. And Not. Your. Problem.

Steel your heart up! That's where your problem is!

The smartest moment you have had is when you told her last week to get her stuff out of the house. I bet you that if you sit her down give her papers to sign to end it and the threats might stop. And if she calls the OM so what. You are only postponing the inevitable.

She has given you all the answers you need

Like the others have said how much more pain can you absorb from her. This is not the woman you married and you have to accept it. Your situation is hopeless because you think that a few MC sessions are going to help you.

Why have t you told her she is calling this bastard again and ending this or if is OVER

And by the if she did that then you could get on the phone and tell this PoS that you will file harassment charges with the police if he does not stop contacting her and then he might get a is it from the Mounties. Of course, she has to agree to that which she wants no part of.

She still believes that you are going to go toMC where she can have more time to screw you over

Let's believe this fairy tale that she has not banged him. How long do you think that is possibly going to last as long as she thinks in some idiotic way you are going to stay with her while she carries this torch for OM . She wants to tell you why she needs her boyfriend and you not why she wants to be married to you

Bad your above post I totally agree with.

He has to force her to make a choice and like Swat told his stbxw "he will not be second to anyone"

He has to be willing to end the marriage in order to save it.

I agree he has to move swiftly because those brain chemicals in her head are going crazy.

He has to show her he will NOT play second fiddle to ANYONE!

He has to take care of business and follow his own path now.

My 2 cents.

Tom

If someone had told me this story without me reading it I am not sure I would believe it. I have see a lot of affairs where a woman gets hooked like this but NEVER without any sex except a little touchy feely for two days.

Remember this little Mexico trip must have occurred in April because she has been home sexting him and carrying on on the phone for a few weeks before IUH caught on. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that the OM came down there while IUH was clueless. Otherwise she is absolutely in love with a man and throwing away her M for a guy she never has slept with. That's why she refuses to answer any more questions . She probably is telling truth about only kissing in Mexico but she has done more than just seen his dick in pictures since they got back and before he caught on.

He was not keeping track of her at all until May 12.. And from mans point of view could you fall in love like POS is telling her in two days and still feel that way a month later if you had only see her naked pictures and talked to her on phone.

Just crazy!!!

He doesn't have to force HER to make a choice.

He has to make a choice. She's already sufficiently demonstrated that until OM is hooked completely, she's using Hoosier as a backup she's got to keep on the hook.

If Hoosier takes HIMSELF off the hook, saying, "no more threats. We go into marriage counseling with a serious intent to work on a better marriage - that will not happen with OM and since you keep threatening me with it, I'm. Done. Now." Then guess what - she has no choice. He has in effect forced it. By his own choice.

IUH

It is 7 am EST. she is NOT at work so POS cannot call her at work on week end. Hand her your phone and take hers. The POS cannot know you have her phone because she is not at work to warn him. How much you want to bet if you do that her phone will ring at some point from him this week end. If she gets pissed and goes leaves the house with your phone and calls him you'll have your confirmation she is lying from the VAR. He can't call her if she leaves to call him with your phone because he does not know the number unto SHE calls hiim. Then you just call the phone company and ask if call to Canada has been made. And if you hear it on the VAR and there is no call on your bill then she has a burner phone.

I assume you have not put the GPS on her car, so look at the mileage. You know how far it is to work and her GF houses. If you see larger mileage you will know she has been somewhere she has not told you

You keep asking what else you can do . Simple things but you won't do them.

Of course all this would be unnecessary if you sit her down this morning and tell her to either pick up the phone NOW and call the POS with you sitting there and end this once and for all or to get herself an attorney on Monday.

Like just about everyone said it is really now just about how much more pain YOU want to take. There is no pussyfooting around it any more.

She's not allowed to SHUT down if you do not let her

Or you can let her "grieve" for her boyfriend and you stay the punching bag.

The ladies here have said bes

SHE iS ALREADY CHECKED OUT . At some point you are going to have to believe it