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My husband said the same things about trusting him. I told him if we caught one of our kids doing drugs, we wouldn't just trust that he/she stopped. There would be a period of us verifying that there was no drug activity and no activity that could lead to drug use. We'd never accept "You're just going to have to trust me." Same thing if they were caught sneaking out, etc. I told him that after a betrayal the magnitude of what he'd done, if he thought I'd be more likely to trust his word than that of one of our kids after being caught breaking trust, he was crazy. That made sense to him. He handed me all his passwords to everything.

He who has nothing to hide, hides nothing. Period.

Thanks for the suggestions.

First, a ploygraph is out of the question...I know it's drastic, but I already thought about that route.

There is something deeper, I don't know what, guilt or something. She's told me a couple times when he's called her for work, or she had to call him, but she's always had difficulty telling me when he reached out with non-work related topics. For example, the text was a couple pics of his flowers in planters in his yard.

I know I have to set the limits and what I need for us to get over it and that means full disclosure. It's just that I felt we have gone over all this during our counselling but as soon as we are outside of the office, the agreements go out the window.

When we were seeing individual counselling, hers told her I needed to get over it since it was over and she should have her privacy. WTF! I still don't understand that one.

From the beginning she has always wanted to repair this her way and I've repeatedly stated did she think her actions have helped our situation or made it worse.

I am scared to death if I draw the line or really push things, it will end the marriage and if it is really over then it is all a shame.

I will continue to plug away and work on trying to get answers.

Are conversations always get heated and doesn't really accomplish anything, but in the morning, or a bit later, cooler heads prevail and we're able to talk constructively.

Not constructive if she will not let you see her electronics.

She is still lying, otherwise, what reason in this world is she keeping you from looking at her ipad. There is no valid reason that you cannot look at her stuff.

Try and talk to her rationally one more time. In a real marriage with complete trust, if a husband asks his wife to see her phone or ipad, there should be no discussion at all, there should be no worries at all. She lets him look and use her electronics.

Turn it around with her. She says there is no trust if you have to look at her phone or ipad...that is ridiculous, there is no trust if she cannot just hand those things to you.

She is obviously hiding something.

Look man if you don't draw the line now your going to regret it for the rest of your life. Now is the time to stand up for yourself and what's right. Your wife is doing you wrong and abusing you. You're the offended party here. She doesn't get to call the shots. If you are worried about her ending the marriage because you won't allow her to run things the way she wants to run them then I don't know what to tell you. Bottom line is you are going to have one shitty life with her if you allow her to sweep everything under a rug and continue her behavior.

She needs consequences and you are the only one who can give those to her. Best of luck to you I hope you find a way to deal with this.

Now is the time to stand up for yourself and what's right. Your wife is doing you wrong and abusing you. You're the offended party here. She doesn't get to call the shots. If you are worried about her ending the marriage because you won't allow her to run things the way she wants to run them then I don't know what to tell you. Bottom line is you are going to have one shitty life with her if you allow her to sweep everything under a rug and continue her behavior.

This is true, my friend. You can't let her dictate your fears and insecurities.

Ask yourself this: Will you be able to be happy in your marriage again if you believe that she isn't cheating....but DOES NOT CARE about your hurt and pain? If the answer is yes, then I would continue ahead like you are, with caution and avoidance of confrontational topics. But if you realize that you can't accept those terms, then it is much better to act now, then to continue this path until things become even more unbearable.

Your WW will never have remorse without empathy. What has she done to ease your pain? Honesty? Nope. Transparency? Nope. NC? Nope....while the affair may be idle, there is still contact.

How can you reconcile with this?

Keep reading. Keep posting. Start to learn, accept, and truly understand that losing her is not the worst thing that can happen. To continue a life of mistrust, and lack of emotional intimacy can be much, much lonelier.

Geek, you tip toe around her, you try to nice her around, try to negotiate/bargain/make deals.

Even the stuff with OM's wife, sending a request from a fictitious account talking about her husband has a lack of respect, why not from your own account.

Front up, stop hiding in the shadows and take ownership of this.

A man brave enough to fool around with another man's wife obviously has no respect for you or his own wife. You wife promised no contact,obviously didn't block his email which can easily be done. Didn't tell you. So why does she get a prize? Why does OM still get a pass to continue contacting your wife?

Are you protecting OM? Aren't you angry that another man, whenever he feels like can yank your wife's chain? Or that it can start up all over again?

Also, I would be very leery of buying the old line 'it was just a kiss' or 'it was just a hug'.

I was told it was just a hug... Found it through trickle truth that they screwed dozens of times. Keep your eyes open. you may want to do some digging. She is staying in contact that is not a good sign. She is asking you to trust her when she has given you no reason to trust her. Liars should not be trusted stop letting her turn the tables on you.

I am nearly two years out and my husband still gives me full access to all of his electronics and calls me when he goes anywhere and keeps a tracker on his phone so I am able to see where he is at all times. He goes above and beyond to prove where he is and who he has or hasn't spoke to at all times to help me to get through this and rebuild trust. He never gets angry when I ask or when I don't trust him..he knows I'd be an idiot to trust him after what he put me through.

Your wife is hiding something or she would not be acting this way.

When he contacts her she should be telling you so that you can handle it as a couple. My FWH did the same thing to me while we were in false reconciliation. When I found out she contacted him and he didn't tell me I threw him out. That is when I regained my power and true R began. He admits now that he was just seeing how long I would let him get away with it. He knew he could go screw her and he knew I would take him back. When he saw that I might really leave him all bets were off. The last time she contacted him he handed me his phone and let me at her. Then we sent a no contact letter together and sent it certified mail. I tell you this as one example of how true remorse should look. You are currently in false reconciliation. It is the worst kind of hell as they try to make you feel like you are crazy. We'll, you are not crazy! She is if she thinks you will put up with this.

I am scared to death if I draw the line or really push things, it will end the marriage and if it is really over then it is all a shame.

Drawing a line and pushing her off the fence is the only way to save the marriage. All logic goes out the window. Have you read about the 180?

http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/faq_bs.asp#FAQ11

Thanks everyone, it was an emotional roller coaster weekend!

First, I should say, that I have in the past checked her emails, facebook, linkedin, work computer, and phone (when it wasn't locked and she stepped away) and found no trace of contact which was a relief. On occasion she has told me there was contact in the past but she has always said it was difficult for her and painful to have to re-visit our conversations about the emotional affair. It's over in her mind and she is not replying when he does send her something so she doesn't want to disrupt our progress.

As for the weekend, I confronted Friday night and made her promise to hold her emotions, not react and basically not say anything as I need to confess and get something off my chest. I told her I checked her ipad and she then started to attack me about me trusting her, when did I do it etc, so I told her to stop and I'm talking now. I told her about the trust and I was overwhelmed that she would let our marriage end instead of telling me the truth that he contacted her. I spoke with a counselor Thursday night (our benefits has the ability to contact one on the phone) and told her that it was positive that she didn't reply as she can not control what he does. However, if our marriage is to continue, she has to provide transparency and be honest about everything or this is not going to work. I do believe it is over, and that this asshole is an arrogant prick who has no respect for other people.

The night ended well with an understanding and in the morning she agreed to show me her phone at the end of each day. We talked again Sat night and I reinforced her actions and behaviour and if she thinks it is helping us or making it more difficult to move on. I also mentioned that when she does these things, it makes me question the honesty and truthfulness of our other conversations.

Last night we decided to take a break from the discussions but before we went to bed, I asked what we decided about the phone etc. She agreed to give me her passwords and to be fully transparent and honest.

Our next couple counselling is not until a bit more than a week, and it's at this point I will put the counselor on the spot to either reinforce the transparency and full honesty and no more of this negotiating how we move forward.

Thanks again everyone, your input has really helped!

Just wanted to give an update.

We had a big argument about the phone access. She says she doesn't trust me either as I said I wouldn't look at her phone without her permission. So know it's agreed, she gives me her codes and I promise not to go behind her back at all hours checking her stuff. I just can't understand that way of thinking. She's is finished with the OM and I believe her. But why am I so stressed? I keep thinking about contacting the OMw and letting her know. I contacted a lawyer and asked what my rights are if my W won't do anything about the OM ocassional text except to ignore. And the more I think about it, their one time alone at a conference when this first started, the more I think something physical did happen and it's eating me up! There are too many things that makes me think they did but am I letting my imagination get away? She did tell her cousin, who had a PA and always said I could talk to her husband, so I'm thinking I'd call him in confidence and in a non-direct way suggest I know my W was physical with the OM to see if he knows from his wife, but I'm afraid to put him in the middle of it. But how do I move on from that knowing my W is not able to tell me the truth about things, like the text, even though she may have told the truth about other stuff?

I've posted on other threads but it's so hard not to think about the negative!! I bought the book How to help your spouse recover from your affair, so I'm hoping it will finally allow us to move on.

I'm thinking of my course of action at our MC next week...tell her I'm contacting the OMw and just wanted to be honest with her. The negotiating for transparency and honesty!! Getting the truth without having to argue about it! We only have 90 min but it stresses me out!

I do try and focus on the positive, that it's over, she loves me, wants to be with me, and wants our family.

Thanks for letting me vent...AGAIN!

She's attacking you about not trusting her??? What's wrong with this picture?

Talk about blame shifting.

She's,still in affair mentality I think. Maybe what OM offered wasn't good enough to keep,her happy, but you know there are,lots of other volunteers out there.

Just tell her without open access to electronic devices, there is no reason for you to trust her. She has proven herself a liar and a cheat. You have not. Deep inside she knows that to be true.

Just have the consequences firmly in mind and communicated,to her if she refuses. And stick to your guns. Women do not admire or find desireable,weak men.

ageek the omw has a right to know and can be another set of eyes on this.

Your wife should not be mad at this because nothing is going on right?

If he contacts her and she gets defensive and mad at you something is still going on.

I HIGHLY suggest you find a way to contact her asap.

All you have to say to your wife is you are defending the marriage.

What if you were in touch with an old gf?

You think she would be letting you do that?

Of course not.

Schadenfreude and Tom67

I have tried...and if comes down to it, she is willing to give up on the marriage.

Next counselling, I'm going to say all the counselors I spoke with have said this is not appropriate and that trust has to be rebuilt. If our counselor doesn't support this, I'm going to look into another counselor.

I'm afraid because she is remorseful, wants to move on, so if I draw the line in the sand, the marriage ends for what? That's why I bought the book (in the mail) and want her to read it. In counseling, I'm tired of discussing this with my W, and it's up to the counselor to take a stand too.

ageek,

Firstly, welcome to SI; I'm sorry you're here.

What truly amazes me about the whole infidelity thing is that we have members from nearly every corner of the globe here on SI, and their cheating spouses all recite essentially the same script. It's uncanny.

In my case, my XWW said the same things yours has, and played and won a game of emotional chicken with me for months. The woman who, in addition to her affairs, had lied and sneaked around and hidden credit cards I didn't know she had with thousands of dollars of debt actually said "We cannot have a marriage if you cannot trust me".

When the obvious irony of that statement stung her, she followed with "Yes, I may have made a mistake, whatever, but YOU (jagged) are going to have to trust me". Yep.

She knew what I feared most at that moment: divorce. And specifically, putting our kids through a divorce. Fear and ignorance had me literally paralyzed, and she stepped in to dictate HER terms. To me. And I accepted them.

After all, healthy spouses DO trust each other, I reasoned with my pathetic self. I can be the bigger person here; I can step up and offer my trust, and do everything I can to save the marriage.

I've been divorced two years now. Yes, she cheated again. Of course she did - her actions (no remorse, dictating terms to me) were the giant red flags that we were doomed. The only regret I have today is the time I wasted being a tool, and trying to win back someone who was long gone. And ironically, my inability to stand up for myself and tell her to fuck off was the nail in the coffin of my M.

I'm a better man today for having gone through it.

I wish you wisdom and peace.

Thanks jagged.

We have had sessions where she completely broke down. A couple months ago, I said I wasn't sure I was going to get over it and we laid in bed and she cried because she never thought this would happen to her. I believe she really tries, she's sorry it ever happened but there are defense mechanism that we are conditioned with, from past experiences, childhood, etc. From the analogy Fight or Flight, she fights and is defensive and then attacks. After awhile she reasons with what is said and is a completely different person. We have worked on how we approach things and triggers that we each have. She saw IC and stopped which was good because her C told her she needed her privacy. That should be taken with a grain of salt as who knows what info was provided and what was actually said vs what was heard.

Do I think she is fucked up, yes. Do I think she has a tremendous amount of guilt, yes. The problem is that she sees the only way to move on is to bury everything and ignore it...even if the OM text her. I'm an accountant and try to find the logic in everything, if it doesn't add up, I ponder and question it which is a force of frustration for someone who wants to discuss it once and move on.

At the end of the day, her EA is over, but her actions in no way make me feel secure about it.

Just wanted to update...

My W offered to give me her phone to check anytime I wanted, if I wanted the code (it's a work and iphone 5s so it's a thumb print to access it) I had to agree not to snoop on it behind her back.

I've been crazy at work, and under a lot of pressure so this morning I'm coming into work early so I get up to shower. I'm finished and my wife is still in bed and asks why I didn't get her (we shower together 99%) and I said I kissed your back when I woke up. I'm dressing and she asks if anything is bothering me, i said no. She knows I'm totally stressed at work and she said I seem unhappy. I finally say, well, if there was something bothering me, based on the past week, I can't tell you. This was the shot over the deck I guess, so she says so there is something bothering you. I said there wasn't but I'm just saying if there was I wouldn't be able to tell you anyway. She is now pissed so she gets up for the shower. I finish getting ready and go into the bathroom and see she's pissed and say I'm freaked at work due to the pressures and demands on my time (that is a whole other story) and proceed to get my stuff together for work. I go back up and tell my wife our youngest is up and playing in her room. She looks at me and says thanks for telling her I'm upset and also mentions she's frustrated because she knows it's about the EA she had.

I'm really torn, I'm 99% sure it's over, but why is there such resistance to see what I need from her. I don't want to say she's selfish, but how many times do I have to tell her that her actions and how she responds to me do not make me safe or that we can actually deal with this stuff. It only questions the honesty she has in talking about the A and helping me move on. If she's moved on great, but what works for her, doesn't work for me.

We are having company for dinner tonight and tomorrow we are going away for the weekend with another couple and their family so no chance to even get into any of this. And at times, I think what's the point, all the happens is that we get in an argument because we see things so differently on how to move on.

She is resisting because she is not telling you the whole truth, and the fact that she is willing to end the marriage rather than provide you with what you need to heal should tell you something.

you are being intimidated into letting her rug sweep, or attempt to, and you need to fire the idiot MC who is telling you to just forget it. You are wasting your money.

Your wife is making a clear choice, which is to guard her privacy (why?) over saving her marriage.

You do the math and see what that adds up to to you.

Sounds like it is ongoing, and after 17 months, an EA that was starting to be a PA (and likely it was more than that when you found out) is probably way bigger than that now.

and no, he wouldn't still be text messaging her after 17 months if she wasn't responding to him. It has gone underground.

The thing with having an affair - the WS has to earn trust back. That means total transparency. That means no more gaslighting, mindgaming of "well if you trusted me you wouldn't need to check." That she is even trying to pull that and listed that as a condition to "moving forward" - then no she isn't doing any real work.

are you in marriage counseling? Individual counseling?

I would recommend reading NOT Just Friends. She should read it too but at least read it for yourself even if she is still refusing to do work.

My W offered to give me her phone to check anytime I wanted, if I wanted the code (it's a work and iphone 5s so it's a thumb print to access it) I had to agree not to snoop on it behind her back.

I read this as "yes you can have access to it, but only after I delete everything off of it first."

She should be doing everything she can to make you feel safe. Not putting conditions on what she thinks is reasonable.

Forget wasting $$$ on mc and hire a PI where om and his wife live and tell her what you know.

She should not be dictating the terms and does not show any true remorse.

There is no privacy in a marriage except for using the bathroom.

Sorry this is not sounding good at all.

You should both have access to each others phone, email, whatever.