SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I would not confront him until you find a way to contact his BW. He will immediately start doing damage control. That is what happened in my case. It took a phone call and an admission by my WH to convince him I wasn't making things up because "I am miserable and I want everyone around me to be miserable too" (the OW's words) You do not have to reveal your source either.

GKG

I hope you are ok and formulated your plan.

You have received great advice from everyone and Bigger is right on the money.

Now get a copy of her journal if you think it will help you in the future and confront your wife.

You should also find the OM's wife and let her know what is going on.

Good Luck

HM

Ok everyone, sorry it took so long for the update. I followed BIGGER's advice and it played out exactly how he said it would. I confronted my wife about her cheating and she completely denied it. (Shocker) She did admit to lying about a "girls trip" when she actually went out to see him but says they are just "friends". (Yeah right) She also shows no remorse for her lying about the trip either.

What blows my mind is that even after reading it in her own words that she had sex with another man, she continues to lie straight to my face about it. The fact that she does keep lying about it is a clear indicator that she is not serious about trying to save the marriage, which saddens me greatly, but I know now that she is a pathological liar and I don't want to be with someone like that.

But thanks to all the advice on this thread, a great weight has been lifted off my chest.

GK you have every right to leave her.

As you run off into the sunset let the pos's wife know.

Otherwise come back and vent and help others here you seem like good dude take care.

I hope you have seen an attorney and on your way to be out of this mess.

You will be better off . Why would you want to live with a woman like this.

Being with a liar is actually worse than being with someone that had an affair. An affair can be gotten over and there can be R.

But with a liar, there is no talking. I don't know what wire comes loose in the mind of a liar and I will never understand their ability to stand there and lie like a 5 year old at the cookie jar.

The only thing I have read about this kind of lying is that they are so internally ashamed of what they did, they have almost convinced themselves that their lies are actually the truth. But the key word is almost...which means, they still know the truth and stand there making life miserable with the constant denials and lies.

Does she even have an excuse for why she wrote she had sex with some guy. Even the worst liars have some kind of excuse.

Unfortunately, since she refuses to even admit what you already know and she refuses to even be honest, there is not much you can do.

You cannot R with a liar.

Are you going to tell this OMs wife?

What blows my mind is that even after reading it in her own words that she had sex with another man, she continues to lie straight to my face about it. The fact that she does keep lying about it is a clear indicator that she is not serious about trying to save the marriage, which saddens me greatly, but I know now that she is a pathological liar and I don't want to be with someone like that.

Unfortunately this may not be quite as willful on her part as it seems. Caught up in the dynamics of self-deception, compartmentalization, and cognitive dissonance, she has a very tenable grasp of reality right now. Plus, they are both writers... who knows what kind of crazy story they think they are now acting out. While she is in the fog, you cannot believe anything she says.

Blow up the A, notify OM's BS, and good luck on the fog clearing.

Caught up in the dynamics of self-deception, compartmentalization, and cognitive dissonance, she has a very tenable grasp of reality right now

How long does that last. What stops it.

I have read about all of those "reasons" to lie, yet the person telling the lies, has to know the truth. So what ends the cognitive dissonance, because with that going on as a reason to lie, there can be no R.

Well, GKG2014, since you have carefully protected your source of information, it will only be necessary for her to have time to update her journal, and you will probably be able to find out if she had sex with him again (I assume she went on the trip) and/or what her true reaction to the confrontation has been. In any event, I think you are right-headed in your thinking about your situation and your marriage...Perhaps you should consider going on a "betrayed's" retreat...?

For God's sake see a lawyer, and also protect your assets and credit card balances from future dalliances.

And heed what Bigger says...

B-Bp

I am not an expert but I think this is where really knowledgeable IC and MCs earn their stripes. Think of times in our lives where all of us have said something like, "I can't believe how badly I was fooling myself about getting that [grade; money; promotion]" or we see someone we care about clearly deceiving themselves... in those cases, who is it that is actually doing the deceiving, and who is it that is being fooled?

How can it be the same person?

So how did your confrontation end?

Did you two decide to end your relationship?

Did she make any offer or sign of wanting to stay in this marriage?

Was there any conclusion to your confrontation?

Look – You can (and IMHO should) force the issue.

You definitely should tell the OM’s wife. To me that’s a given, an unavoidable responsibility we all have.

If your WW claims that OM is only a “friend” then you could suggest you and WW make a conference call with him and his wife to discuss the situation. After all – if they are only friends and nothing unbecoming happened during their visit then both marriages should be fine with this being out in the open. Who knows… maybe you two couples can be friends… See how your wife reacts to that.

The confrontation ended when I said to her, "There is no way for us to move forward until you become true to yourself and start telling me the truth. But with you sitting there lying straight to my face when we both know what is going on just makes things worse."

She doesn't seem interested in saving the marriage and didn't at the time of confrontation.

I need some time to do some soul searching but I think I may need to end the relationship. I am a very forgiving man, but I won't ever be able to forget. The question I need to ask myself is, do I want to live the rest of my life in a relationship with a person that I cannot fully trust anymore and agonize over this time and time again? Probably not.

If your WW claims that OM is only a “friend” then you could suggest you and WW make a conference call with him and his wife to discuss the situation. After all – if they are only friends and nothing unbecoming happened during their visit then both marriages should be fine with this being out in the open. Who knows… maybe you two couples can be friends… See how your wife reacts to that.

I like your style BIGGER.

GKG

Let's summarize what has occurred since you posted :

(1) your wife goes to a conference and fucks another man

(2) she lies to you about a girls trip and goes out of town to visit him and fucks him some more .

(3) not only does she do the above she documents in detail for you with everything but a video.

(4) you decide I think not to copy the whole journal because you do not want to make her mad .

(5) you finally confront her and with concrete evidence and she not only denies everything and gives you ridiculous story about nothing happening, she is totally unrepentant and tells you she could care less.

And you think she cares if she is married to you anymore???

You are now officially in a totally open marriage and it looks like you have decided to just suck it up and accept it.

What do you think is going to happen at the next out of town conference. ??

Actually with her attitude she may just come right out and tell you she is going off to fuck him again.

BIGGER has given you a suggestion and you like his style. But nowhere I. His suggestion did he suggest you just continue to be married to a woman who goes and fucks other men. His suggestion was for you to finally do something and "out" your wife's boyfriend to his wife. Nowhere have you indicated you have any intention to do anything but search your soul. This is not your fault!!! Your wife is a liar and has and is humiliating and disrespecting you .

This OM is not local to you , but the next one will be. Right now she will just probably stay on contact with him which I am sure she is doing while you sit and soul search.

You will be doing a lot of forgiving if you do not take some action since you let her just shut down the conversation and intimidate you.

I would not do what BIGGER suggested because your wife will just call OM and warn him what may happen. His way might work if she have a shit about you and had any desire to R with you. At this point you might want to consider calling an attorney and filing for D so that you can see if she reacts to any real consequences.

You are an intelligent man but you are still in such a state of denial and refuse to move into the angry stage so her attitude will not change nor will her affairs.

I apologize for the bluntness of this but this is not an open marriage or polyamory support group and I assume your reason for posting was for suggestions how to deal with infidelity, not live peacefully and quiet with it.

[This message edited by Badhurt at 5:40 AM, August 24th (Sunday)]

GKG

I wanted to share a post from another BS that was dealing with his remorseless WW.

Check #3.

I hope this helps you. I also wanted to add my thought that you hopefully take Bigger's advice about contacting the OMW.

Good Luck and keep posting. You have a great head on your shoulders. Do not let your WW keep poking holes in your heart.

She only has that power if you let her have that,

HM

If you are with an uremorseful wayward spouse, things are going to get worse, not better. You are certainly not going to start healing. that happens when they become remorseful, or you are free of them.

so divorce the bastards. They are not worth being married to.

However.

Maybe. Just maybe. Maybe that pathetic excuse for a spouse isn't the limit of their potential. Maybe they have it within them to actually be the person you thought they were.

Hell.

Maybe they can be MORE than you or they ever thought. The wayward spouses on here who are remorseful are incredibly self aware, rounded human beings. They stand no nonsense. They examine themselves for their faults relentlessly.

They make you want to stand up and applaud. They make you want to be a better man. Wouldn't it be nice if you were married to a person like that. THAT would be fucking awesome. Well, remember why you fell in love. you believe that person is worth more, or you wouldn't still be reading this post.

Filing for divorce MIGHT just make them:

1. Realise what they are about to lose

2. Take a long hard look at themselves

3. Recognise that their bullshit, lying, and manipulating is pointless, because the clock just keeps ticking.

there are countless tales on here, including my own, where nothing happened until the BS retook control of the relationship. The WS sat on the fence happily destroying the BS, wrapped up in their own little drama, UNTIL the BS decided they had had enough and took control.

So, you start divorce proceedings. what are the possible outcomes.

1. They sort themselves out and start to "get it"

Keep the proceedings going until you are damn sure you have someone who is remorseful, not someone who is just playing up to get you to stop. You can always restart the process. In the UK its awesome because there are several points where you can basically press the "pause" button, and then start it rolling again. However, if they really do realise what they have lost and start to fight for it, then you can kill the process. That's what happened for me, and I'm convinced it's what a lot of people need to be doing.

2. They get angry and leave

Wave them goodbye with a smile. Good riddance - all you have done is start a process you would have to have gone down in the end anyway, so all that's happened is that you have shortcutted the process, saved yourself from tolerating their craziness, and retaken control of your life. Hell, they may even come crawling back. It happens. what happens after that is of course, up to you.

3. They continue lying and cheating

Well, sounds like a good reason to divorce someone to me.

Look, I am VERY pro marriage. I believe that with a remorseful wayward spouse, and a forgiving Betrayed Spouse, marriages can be stronger and more fulfilling than they ever were before the affair, because neither partner is now taking the other for granted. Both are working at the marriage. I would rather get to that point without the agony of betrayal, but hey.

However, I am NOT pro foggy remorseful spouse. It breaks my heart to read post after post from betrayed spouses who have just been stabbed in the heart and still have the courage to want to save their marriage, whilst their WS is still in foggy lala land. It's sickening. Nothing ever changed until the BS retakes control, so when I say "divorce them", what I really mean is "retake control of your life, and put time limit on the pain".

so, if you are with an unremorseful spouse, who is hurting you, think about divorcing them. It's an acknowledgement of the reality of the situation you have been forced into. It doesn't have to go the full term, but either way it's a win win situation.

People always say "dont make any rash decisions for six months". But that is assuming both people are back on board. If your spouse is still hurting you by lying, minimising, getting angry or defensive, then no-one expects you to put up with that for six months. you're being emotionally abused. Put a stop to it. Give it a time limit.

I love my wife with all my heart.

However, I wish I had started divorce proceedings against her the moment I realised she was not remorseful. We might have made it, we might not, but I would not have been put through six weeks of hell that he left me far more traumatised than the original affair did. If you love them, then be prepared to let them go. It's your best shot at getting them back.

[This message edited by happyman64 at 8:47 AM, August 24th (Sunday)]

By the way GKG how was the vacation?

How was your wife on the vacation?

GK;

The confrontation ended when I said to her, "There is no way for us to move forward until you become true to yourself and start telling me the truth. But with you sitting there lying straight to my face when we both know what is going on just makes things worse."

Sorry but that’s not an ending. At best a coffee-break.

An ending in this situation needs to be a decision for action.

That action could be my suggestion of talking to OM and OMW. (BTW Badhurt – I never suggested he give WW any forewarning about the call. But you raise a good point and one that GK needs to be clear on: NEVER warn or tell WW that you are about to contact OM or OMW. And Badhurt – what in h@ll do you see in my post supporting an open marriage or polyamory???).

My original post stated:

“…Like I say: You are free to do whatever you want but until or unless you verbally and clearly tell me that you want to save this marriage and accept some conditions that will help us in doing so then I am simply assuming you have chosen him and thereby chosen freely to end this marriage.

I will act accordingly and start the process of terminating this marriage.”

THAT would be an ending to the confrontation. Not the end of the marriage necessarily but definitely an ending to the confrontation. It would give YOU a path to progress and her a clear picture of your intentions.

GK – Phone the OM wife. Tell her what you know. Nothing more, nothing less. Tell her that your WW has admitted to going to see OM; that they spent time at the same hotel. That she claims they are only friends and there was no sex but that you have reasonable doubt that’s not true. Stay within the facts that you have corroborated with your wife. Don’t warn your wife, don’t bother talking to OM. Just do this. DO NOT REFER to WW journal. There isn’t any need to at the moment. The simple fact they arranged to meet at a hotel is suspect enough.

And GK – FINISH the confrontation.

My first message here. I am curious why your wife wrote these very intimate details in a journal in the first place? I would be terrified somebody would read them. Who do they benefit? Maybe I don't understand journals. But, my guess is she wanted you to read them someday. Yanno - going through her things at her funeral? It's just funny she didn't leave it out for you 'accidentally'. Yep - I would definitely keep that to yourself about reading it. Awesome advice to this man, folks!

GK – Phone the OM wife. Tell her what you know. Nothing more, nothing less. Tell her that your WW has admitted to going to see OM; that they spent time at the same hotel. That she claims they are only friends and there was no sex but that you have reasonable doubt that’s not true. Stay within the facts that you have corroborated with your wife. Don’t warn your wife, don’t bother talking to OM. Just do this. DO NOT REFER to WW journal. There isn’t any need to at the moment. The simple fact they arranged to meet at a hotel is suspect enough.

So I just messaged the OM wife and am waiting for a response. I had to send a FB message since I don't have a phone number to contact. I also followed what you said on your original post during my confrontation and she continued to deny and gave no indication that she wanted to save the marriage. So it's a pretty clear that this marriage is over.

I am curious why your wife wrote these very intimate details in a journal in the first place?

I don't know. Pretty stupid if you ask me.

GKG

In your confrontation, did you give away the fact that you had access to the journal. ??? If she does not know you actually saw the journal them you might now still have access to it.

I am hoping by now with her attitude you do not give a shit about her privacy or care what she thinks. If you can I would get the journal so you know everything. And copy it.

It does not seem unless you have skipped a lot like this is a torrid love affair because you have not stared any other changes in her behavior. Had you not seen the journal was she just acting no or distant??

It does not matter at this point really. You can go to all sorts of elaborate actions to snoop like VAR, but you know she will do it again with him or some one else so you should hand her D papers and get it over with.

You cannot R with WW that does not acknowledge anything. If the OM wife makes a stink with OM you will know if you message got through. I hope you have OM wife multiple ways to contact you and told her you had proof.

Remember how I predicted her reactions at confrontation? Well – here goes her reaction once you tell OMW:

Soon after you contact OMW then OM will contact your WW. She will be totally furious and tell you that you causing problems in their marriage is the final straw. That your overreaction is the reason your WW no longer thinks the marriage is salvageable.

She will also probably tell you that OM and his wife were having problems. Maybe even that they were separated. It’s also quite common to get the “his wife has health/mental issues and he is only in the marriage to help her and now YOU have destroyed that” sort-of-spiel.

She will stick to her no sex story.

Ignore her reactions. Her huff-and-puff will last as long as it takes for her to realize that you are committed to ending infidelity. At that point she will either start coming back towards wanting to solve the marital issues or head towards divorce. Either is an acceptable solution to the present situation.

What the above reaction will tell you is that there IS ongoing contact between OM and WW. That he has a way of getting in touch with her.

Now – Let’s be clear that based on what you post I think this is a full-blown affair. I do NOT see them as “just friends”. But BASED ON WHAT YOUR WIFE HAS SAID then I suggest the following reaction when and if your WW blows her stack over exposure:

Offer to have that conference call with OM, OMW, WW and you. Not that I expect your wife to accept the offer but simple common sense and logic say that IF what she says is true then they shouldn’t have anything to fear and should be able to convince you two that there wasn’t any sex.

If your WW does not commit to the marriage in a clear way then start the process of terminating the marriage. Tell stakeholders in your relationship (parents, in-laws, close friends…) the truth as your WW has admitted:

-She sneaked a visit to a hotel to be near OM. She has admitted to this.

-OM was at the same hotel at the same time. She has confirmed this.

-She claims nothing inappropriate happened but:

a)you think lying to you and sneaking off to meet another married man at a hotel IS innapropriate even IF her claim of no sex were true

b)you have no reason to believe her claim that there was no sex.

Be careful in your wording: Don’t tell others that she had sex with OM but rather state the known facts and then your logical deduction.

About telling OMW.

Stick to what you know and can support.

Think how you would react if an unknown woman would take the time to contact you and tell you about your WW possibly be having an affair.

You don’t really have to “prove” anything. You don’t need glossy photos or the hotel-maid to tell you she brought them room-service and saw them in bed (BTW – can you go over your WW invoices from the hotel?).

Have the dates and locations. Ask OMW if her husband was out of town at those days. Ask her if she can confirm the name of the hotel/s.

The ONLY reaction required is that OMW confronts her husband on the issue. She doesn’t have to believe you but if she tells OM about the call and/or confronts him about it then it WILL come back to your wife. And in 9/10 cases it’s followed by a “we should stop seeing each other” note from the OM to the WW. Being dumped is a real good reality call.