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MHCA

When she says she will regret it for the rest of her life she probably will. You know why? Because there is no guarantee that she will ever have the luxury of being a SAHM again and have a good man like you provide for all of her creature comforts . She will be a good old fashioned working stiff at age 46 for the first time in a long time. And her best talent for the last year has been hooking up on the internet.

That is what she regrets. That you called the OM wife and found out about the burner phone number she had. If you had not done that you would have been blindly ignorant and she would have been right back at it.

I reject that she is broken. She did not get manipulated , coerced , or forced to place her ad in Ashley Madison. She just did not love you enough not to do it. This was entirely different that a drunken one night stand.

Every time you get a little sad, you need to remember everything she did to you and the disrespect for you her behavior was.

So yup, she regrets it. Her life is also going to be a new ball game.

And PS. She regrets it so much she probably has ready had her first fuck buddy date with her d college friend. Give me a break.

Stay strong

I think what you are doing and how you are feeling is normal processing of loss, a stage of grieving.

From my memory of your posts, my impression was that your wife was very, very angry with you for something, or very resentful, (and very very selfish) though if I recall she never mentioned anything to you. She didn't tell you about it, and she acted out by cheating. At some point she disconnected from you and the kids and even her old self and became some unrecognizable evil person who could cheat and lie so easily. Her friend told her about AM, and she thought it was a great idea. That was not always how your wife was. She had an anger, a resentment, a friend who fueled the fire, and something within her that was very selfish and didn't allow her to ever consider things from your point of view, didn't let her to step outside for even a second and consider the big picture, consider the consequences. Then when she was caught, the defiance of not telling you, telling you it's none of your business, you get what you get and don't get upset.

All of these stories seem the same to me, but I won't soon forget your wife and her antics. There is one thing I remember from your story that I think is not seen that often, and that is how she hissed at you after you told other man's wife, and you asked how she knew, and she said "I have my methods" or something like that. Given her situation at the time, telling you she wanted to reconcile, there she was cheating on you and lying to you, yet she was so angry at you for just telling the truth. You don't often see that level of moral disconnect, even on a forum like this where every thread is about cheating.

Oh mhca, I really feel for you. You are in such a difficult place, and just from reading your last post I get the sense that you are still bewildered by the events of the last 8 months. That all seems normal to me. It is going to take time to completely disconnect from your stbx and I imagine it will get easier once in-house separation is finished and you you can physically disconnect as well as mentally. Be kind to yourself and let yourself grieve!

I know by your own admissions that you have not been the perfect husband throughout your marriage. I remember you saying how you have struggled with alcohol. I have always wondered if that has held you back from seeing your wife for who she is/or has been during her affairs. This sense of maybe you had it coming, maybe you deserved it after what you put her through. I do know at times you have been incredibly easy on her, maybe that's just you, I don't know, but I've always wondered if it's been because you know what it's like to lose your way. I guess I'm just putting it out there because I hope that isn't the case. What your wife has done goes beyond cruel, and in my honest opinion, beyond the fog of normal waywards. Not because she continued her affairs, but because of the way she treated you when you stood up for yourself, when you called her out to the obs, those actions... Give me chills in all honesty. Just make sure you cover yourself and kids as you move forward. I hope she wakes up to herself and sees what she has done one day in the honest light it deserves, but I wouldn't hold my breath. If you get any sense that she is attempting to manipulate you with notes like she gave you the other day, just remember the day she confronted you about telling the obs, the look on her face and the haughty way in which she acted like you had broken her trust because you had promised, under sufferance, not to tell the obs. Hold onto that until the divorce is through. Sending you hugs mhca, I get the sense you really need them!

Afterward WW gave me a note as I was leaving that said she'd regret what she did for the rest of her life

Sounds like she at least acknowledges she has made a mistake, but doesn't truly grasp the gravity of it all and the far reaching effects of her betrayal to you, your kids, the rest of the family. It's still about her and what "she" will regret.

Instead she would rather maneuver around the consequences, avoid owning her shit, and continue running down the dark path on the wayward way of life as an AM junkie. She can't maintain the pace forever and the truth eventually catches up to her and will begin to knock on the door demanding to be met. It is unavoidable. But when it does, her own hell of her own making will truly begin to unfold. It's best to observe from afar and out of reach so you don't get dragged into it with her.

And hopefully at that time you will be in your happy place in life and your boys can escape to you when mom gets "crazy" again.

Thanks everyone. As you can tell this is really hard for me. Twenty years means you can get pretty attached to someone. I think the main problem is that my STBX isn't quite as transparently toxic as some of the other stories you hear, like where the guy cheated during the honeymoon, or laughs about STD's or some of the really bizarre stuff you see.

She seems to all the world like someone who would never do what she did. It's hard to square the image of the devoted mom and good friend with someone who could have hurt me the way she did. But she did, and we are where we are, and I have to move on, but it's really fucking hard.

RomanticInnocenc, you seem to have a lot of insight and see some really important things that often I'm slower to see. I do know what it's like to lose my way, and I've always been forgiving and understanding and always wanted to ascribe best intentions to people. When I was drinking and depressive (several major severe depressions) my STBX didn't have a great bedside manner but she didn't leave, she stuck with me. 12 years later and her infidelity struck, I figured I owed her the benefit of the doubt but got burned for it. Oh well.

I don't know if she resents me, or harbors anger or even hates me on some level. In the wake of D-Day #1 she accused me of having been very angry for a while. I don't think that's true but I was frustrated with her and certainly withdrawn based on her constant criticism. Maybe she was angry and projecting. I've seen projection from her before.

mhca did you expose her to all her friend and family ?

if you did not i suggest that you do it or else she will twiste the reason for the divorce after

I've seeing a lot of people who regret not telling

the reason of the divorce

I think most of her sisters know she cheated but don't know the awful details. At this point I think it would just be spiteful for me to expose all that shit so I don't plan to.

This morning she woke me up around 5am, said she hadn't been sleeping. Wants to work it out, start MC, etc. Says she's been NC. We talked for a while but it was hard to take it all in. I just can't set myself up for more pain.

I have followed your story, and am so sorry for your pain.

But she has shown you who she is. Believe her.

No matter how hard it is.

MHCA

I, along with everyone else following your dreadful saga, knew this was coming. So, I suspect, did you. Is this your Doug Flutie "Hail Mary" that you referenced about two weeks ago? Only you know.

Questions

Biggest one is this: Does she really understand or want to understand what she has done and the immense pain she has caused for YOU?

Is she as SWAT said, "in it to win it" Do you believe this?

Will she do the work to heal you, her, and your marriage? Or is this just fear of the unknown and of being a cheating divorced mom of two and alone?

What do you REALLY want? BTW I posted on your reconciliation plan post that I believed you still loved LKLV5. Do you or is it really dead? If it is, you owe yourself, your boys, and her to move on. If not, can you be all in? You were until April but I can see why you wouldn't commit to R then. She sensed that and held back, what do you think?

Comments:

I cannot imagine the pain you have experienced. I cannot even fathom it. Never met you, but my respect for you is off the charts....

I also said in your reconciliation post, the "fog" would begin to clear, and it is clearing: FINALLY! But, I have read and read where many WW's take 6 months to over 2 years to come out of it. Reality is hitting her hard (as it continues for you) Yeah, she gets a pile of money, but I honestly think that is not what its about. I really believe she loves you. I really do. She fucked up royally, no question. Can she fix herself, really own it? Will you even give her that chance, and if so, will she grab it with both hands? Only you and her can answer that question.

Best

Imalive

Imalive, I'm just interested as to where you get the idea that mhca's WW loves him. Please don't think I'm trying to attack you, I am genuinely interested. I honestly haven't seen anything myself to indicate that she does. Given mhca's posts are inevitably biased but I don't remember him writing a single thing that truly indicates love. There have been some on the fence stuff that she has knocked out of the ballpark to the negative everytime she's had an opportunity to show real compassion and empathy. Her posts showed consistently not getting it and I certainly haven't seen her back here trying to Wade through her appalling behaviour and decisions.

Enthusiastic t/j

Mhca, only you know what is in your heart. Only you know if you could ever open back up to her. I just want to say that if you decide there is even the tiniest chance, still continue the divorce, it doesn't have to go all the way through, but still continue the process. If you want to give her hope that maybe, MAYBE, there is a chance, you give her a list of needs that she must fulfil, no shared working on stuff, no you sticking your neck out with the possibility of it getting lobbed off again. She fulfils your needs period, see if she is capable of doing that with receiving very little in return, that always seems to be a large indicator of their commitment.

If it were my needs I'd be asking for-

-a very comprehensive timeline

-ic

-polygraph

-no meetings with men

-proof that she no longer has any contact with all ap's and her mc friend and any other friend that has been involved in her affairs (as in she calls them all in front of you)

-open access to everything

-a tracker on her phone life 360 is a decent free one

-no lies and no hiding from the truth

-complete loyalty to you during the time she decides to try this.

They would be my basic needs to even consider R. I'm an advocate for R if it is possible (never thought I'd be) but not if it will cost your sanity and your soul. This is so hard with out all the crap she has already put you through, if you have already detached enough that you don't think you could care, then keep moving forward. At this point I don't think you owe her anything other than a fair divorce!

Says she's been NC. We talked for a while but it was hard to take it all in. I just can't set myself up for more pain.

So I'm guessing that the meeting with the old college flame didn't pan out?

Oh well. Filing for D is like putting it on autopilot. From here on out you do what you need to do to find peace and the break from the pain while the course is set. Your WW has to do the real work to convince you otherwise. If she really felt remorse and wanted save the M she would do all she can to be proactive about it, not just talk about it.

DBL post

[This message edited by Jduff at 10:16 PM, September 1st (Monday)]

(MHC)...what imalive posted.

I guess I'm feeling a little...fragile. I presume the best thing to do is move forward to D as prescribed. I think she's waiting for me to call a time out or something but I just don't see that anything has fundamentally changed. I told her when we talked that she still seemed like a mystery to me. Sometimes I get the feeling that I have deeper understanding of some of the people that I see on dating sites (from reading their profiles) than I do of her. And I've never actually talked to any of those people, let alone met any.

I'm exhausted too, haven't slept right for over a week. Probably a bad time to think too hard.

One interesting angle, I asked her a couple weeks after deciding D why she stopped posting on SI. She said it was "too negative." Sigh. Welcome to my world.

I'm going to reflect on all the wisdom you guys have sent my way so far. Thanks again. Even though it sucks to have to be on SI it's one of the handful of things helping me keep it together these days (IC and kids being the others.)

Appreciate all the hugs and 2x4's equally.

[This message edited by mhca at 2:21 AM, September 2nd (Tuesday)]

I presume the best thing to do is move forward to D as prescribe

I think you're right mhca your wife didn't show any kind of true remorse ,and she's only saying this now because she doesn't have any other option

I’m very pro R mhca, but I don’t think that you can with Lklb5. I think many of us saw this latest crossroads coming. Lets stick with the facts from your story and what you are dealing with.

I have no doubt that Lklb5 is full of regret. Maybe she’s just now starting to feel remorseful. Very possible. I also have no doubt that she is probably lonely and scared. None of these are grounds for R. What has she done to show you she’s a candidate for R with you? Has she done any of the minimum of what you need? Even if you have been firm on D, she should be showing you something in the realm of remorse if she truly wants to move forward with you. I have been reading the Wayward forum for almost a year now and I have seen plenty on what remorse really looks like. IMHO from what you have written here Lklb5 hasn’t shown you anything at all to show that she’s a candidate for R.

WIth the date thing last week. I didn’t want to bring it up and deliberately didn’t in my last post because I didn’t want to cause you any more pain. Regardless of whether or not it was a “date” or not, here are some facts on that action of hers. Originally it was booked as a sleepover. Then after the blowup here on SI and with the impact on your kids that event was going to have, it was changed to drinks. Does either really matter? The fact is that if she really wanted to even have the slightest shot at R or if she had any empathy for you, she should not be going out with guys, even if just “friends” because of what her past actions have shown you. Especially a “friend” that she was flirting with earlier on FB. Where this "friend" may or may not have an SO, doens't matter as she has shown that she prefers attached men. She could use the excuse that “but we are going to D”, which is fine, but then why turn around after the date and give you a message and say that she doesn’t want to D? Did she realize that her “friend” only wanted her for one thing again? Regardless, if she had a heart she would not have gone out or even have booked the date with said friend because of her past actions. Was this another passive aggressive move on her part to either 1) hurt you, or 2) try to get you to call it off to see how you felt?, or 3) is she really that oblivious to think this night out was ok? All 3 are really horrible.

Regardless of past issues in the M, if she truly wanted to move forward with you, you should be seeing apologies fairly frequently if not daily. She should be telling you, and more importantly showing you, why she loves and deserves anything more than just being civil with her. She should be bringing up the A’s and be willing to discuss them and then letting you determine whether or not you want to discuss them. At this point, all she has done is given you a note expressing her regret and telling you that she does not want to D. Before the latest note all of her words were hollow or destructive. Are they any different now? I don’t think so and here’s why.

She tells you that posting was too negative here on SI. Really? That thread that she started or people posting to you too negative? And she can’t handle that? How is she going to handle the 1000000000x more negativity when dealing with you on a very raw and personal level? All those bags that you put down because you have detached will be right back. The trigger of walking by the hotel. How will she deal with that? The trigger of going back to MC and her lying to you the first time you were in MC. How will she deal with that? All that she did through the holiday’s to you. How will she deal with those? How will she deal with you greatest fear that she will do it again? How will she deal with the negativity on a daily basis when you lash out at her for everything she’s done (all BSs so at one point or another). How will she deal with the negativity of the As being discussed daily? How will she deal with your negative mood swings?

My answer to all of those is… She can’t. Too much negativity is a rug sweeping statement. If she can’t handle talking to a bunch of anonymous strangers, what sort of coping mechanisms does she have to hand all of the up close and personal raw negativity that would come her way to be able to R. For those reasons, I think MC would be a complete waste of time and money for you. She needs serious IC, figure out her why’s, have the ability to express true remorse, get some serious coping skills for herself by not soothing herself with other men, kill the passive aggressive behavior so that she is able express herself to you in a healthy manner, most importantly be able to shoulder all of the load to try and heal you, the kids, and herself. Then maybe MC could come into play to help mediate some of the other issues. Until IC and some of these other things happen, MC would be a waste of time and money for you. Without a doubt. It was last time and she has shown you that. Has she done anything to show you any different. Through your posts I would say no she hasn’t.

I would honestly love for Lklb5 to get her head out of her ass and start working on herself and maybe show you some of these things. I think many of us would. But she either can’t, or won’t. She’s lacking character and heart to be able to do those things. I would love to be proven wrong but she’s had months to try and do those things. She hasn’t. Is she really giving you a note and saying things to you out of fear and loneliness? Or is she showing some real remorse? I heard someone else mention this and thought it was a wise statement… turn down the volume on what you are hearing and look at her actions. What actions tell you she’s a candidate for R at this point?

Even though you have detached I know you have continued to watch. The tone and words of some of your posts suggests it. You have a good heart and a kind soul mhca. Those are admirable traits to have and show through your empathy in other’s threads here on SI. Please don’t lose those traits. But please also don’t let those traits cause yourself any more harm. Only you can answer whether or not you want to give her the gift of R again. Protect yourself mhca. IMHO, she has done nothing to earn that gift. She show’s you that she is regretful, lonely, and scared. She does nothing to show you that she loves you or regrets what she has done. She very well may not know how to and that is not for you to fix. She very well may not know what empathy is either. She hasn’t shown you any. At all. Period.

yop

yearsofpain25 wow wise words i agree with you in every word you said

Really I think the entire situation can be summed up in 3 words:

She's

Not

Safe

And if she's not safe, then she's...?

Yes, you guys are all right. Thanks YoP for crystallizing it. She's not safe, not for me anyway. I don't know her heart and I don't see a way to get to know it. MC won't reveal it. Desire to stay married (or avoid divorce) won't either.

Isn't that strange to say after loving her for 20 years? To me it's unbelievably fucking surreal. I thought I knew her but in a very real sense we were strangers. This is one of the reasons I got blindsided I think.

We can talk all day about supporting each other, and being good parents, and having good sex, and how well we compliment each other. And how she'll always be faithful from now on. But at the end of the day I don't know her. Not truly.

She won't let me in. I don't know much, but I know this: I require knowing my partner. Knowing her deeply, understanding her better than anyone else on earth does. Or at least having that potential, like if I were to start looking for a new partner.

I don't think she shares this point of view me. Which is fine I guess, lots of men are out there who will be OK with that. They'll like the things she does more than I do: art galleries, world travel, bistros, cocktail parties. They'll love her extroverted personality. Lots of guys would support her. She'll find someone and I'm sure they'll have fun together and probably even love each other in their own way. Good for them.

But they won't really know each other, I don't think.

((((mhca))))

She's starting to see the REALITY of D and she doesn't like it. You are her 'plan B'. She says 'jump' and is expecting you to say 'how high'. Don't. go. there.

You know what? D isn't final till everyone signs off on it. In that time, if she is TRULY serious about R then she will do the work - without any guarantee of success.

Whatever you do, DO NOT STOP THE D PROCESS while you wait (ugh) to see if she is serious. She hasn't been truthful with you yet, what makes you think that anything is different now? Unless/until she does the work on herself, she is still in a WW mindset. You can't R with that. No one can.

Keep putting one foot in front of the other. Be a stable, loving parent for your children. Quit talking to WW except for kids and finances. No relationship talk. No R talk. It's all just words to her, along with little or no sustainable actions.

Stop allowing her to manipulate you with meaningless words. I wouldn't believe any 'actions' from her either - it looks like a last ditch attempt to preserve her lifestyle, not like a true desire to R. But now she has to face the reality of what she has thrown away.

She makes me sick. FTG.

Sending you tons of strength and mojo.

((((mhca))))