SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

meleanoro & jjct, thanks a bunch for those nice comments. I'm trying to be as clear as I can in writing out my thoughts and thinking about the right things to do, both to make sure that when it comes time to make actual decisions I've really thought it out, and hopefully other people will see some patterns that might apply to them, maybe help them a bit too.

Anyway, it's really nice to get compliments like that when things seem so dark, so thanks a bunch!

99% of the advice given to you in this thread is total shit from bitter people who don't know anything about women or relationships. The winning strategy here is to behave like a confident, charming man:

Tell your wife you've sorry for acting like such an ass during this entire ordeal. Explain that this is because you still love her, still feel strongly bonded to her, and are in terrible pain from the fact she's having sex with other men. She will understand all this and will be deeply sympathetic.

Tell her you know that forming relationships with other men is a profound emotional and physical need for her. Tell her that you will always love her but that you understand she needs to be free to have these new, amazing experiences. Tell her that nothing that has happened has tainted the wonderful memories you have of the past 19 years.

Tell her you forgive her for the affairs she had toward the end of your marriage and that she should not feel guilty about any of them. You understand she was in a very difficult, very stressful position, and that if you were in her place you probably wouldn't have done any better.

Tell her you believe that you both want nothing more than the best for your sons, and that you are committed to working with her to find the best possible custody arrangement. She will understand that boys need their father and will be very agreeable to this.

Be sure to look her right in the eyes when you say all these things.

If your body fat is above 12% and you can't bench press your body weight then you probably look like crap and need to fix that. My favorite sites for this are "rippedbody.jp" and "marksdailyapple.com" but there are many others. There is a brisk market for men in their 40s with strong, lean bodies, as you will find out.

If you have anxiety, depression, or a racing mind, and eating a healthy diet doesn't help, strongly consider getting your mercury fillings removed. Many people report feeling completely different after having this powerful neurotoxin eliminated from their bodies.

Buy yourself some new, fashionable clothes in a style that you like. Buy a very nice watch. Get a stylish haircut.

When you have a positive psyche, an excellent body, and good style, women will appear out of nowhere trying to snag you. Fall in love with the one you like best. Enjoy your new life.

[This message edited by plaljrs at 2:11 AM, August 18th (Monday)]

OK, that last post from plaljrs was a little strange.

But I may as well provide an update. Very businesslike and fairly distant between me and STBX. I'm putting together spreadsheets of assets and we're discussing some goals for custody. Meetings with lawyers and others have started. High level stuff and compiling documentation so far.

Even though we're both in the house we're designating one of us as the person with "custody" so the other person is free to do whatever during their time. A taste of things to come when real S takes effect.

(BTW: looks like STBX won't be staying overnight in a hotel with that other guy who's in a committed relationship. They're still meeting for drinks. I think the reason I cared before was mainly the worse she behaves, the worse I feel about having asked her to marry me. And vice versa.)

Also, plaljrs, my body fat is very low. I play competitive sports about four times a week. I have a very nice watch. New clothes are being phased in. New BMW, not that that should matter at all. People who know me tell me that the social scene should be favorable. But, not sure I want a woman that cares that much about this material shit.

Just need to let go some of the anger that I'm still feeling. That will take a while since the depth of the betrayal is so deep. Ironies like giving her so many (half?) of the assets that I busted my ass to provide (at the cost of stress and high blood pressure) chafe me. Until we have a deal locked down it will probably be hard to put the anger aside.

But that's the way the game works, doesn't matter for shit what she did, she gets a boatload of $ and a new life. I suppose I could demand that she pay me for the money spent on Ashley Madison fees and hotel rooms. And maybe time and cost for IC and MC sessions where she was lying to everyone. Not a big amount but symbolic in a way.

Serious question BTW, for anyone out there: with a non-remorseful STBX, but one who is acting reasonably and assuming she doesn't try to screw me over too badly on the settlement, what does forgiveness mean? I think forgiveness at least means she would have to really understand the destruction she has caused, but of course that doesn't seem to be happening. So is forgiveness possible? Is it warranted? If so, when? Is forgiveness equivalent to letting go of the anger?

...not sure I want a woman that cares that much about this material shit.

mhca what a great response to that post - I think you are a very dignified man - in every sense.

Forgiveness? I think the forgiveness isn't about them per se, it's about letting go of the anger/hurt/bitterness,each and every time. Recognising that they are broken and don't wish to change and that all the feelings we have towards them won't change anything in them. That if we keep on forgiving them (and we need to keep doing it as they keep hurting us) that we release ourselves from bitterness and hatred and refuse to let it shape who be are becoming and the choices we are making.

Now, I don't know if you're a Christian? I am, and for me there's the other level of having been forgiven by God for all the broken choices I keep making (by God who died for me even as I was effectively hammering the nails in), I'd be a hypocrite not to forgive the other broken people around me. So as hard as I find it, I just have to keep doing it...over and over

But forgiveness doesn't mean a free pass, it doesn't mean forgetting, or rug sweeping, or pretending they haven't hurt us. If we keep allowing people to hurt us, knowing they show no remorse, that's a form of self harm. We forgive, but we also protect ourselves with good boundaries and refuse to collude in their brokenness.

Mhca, my take is forgiveness can be something we consciously grow into but not forced.

Initially in digesting the repeated betrayals in my relationship, I suspect I internally pushed for forgiveness in hopes of easing my pain.

Your timeline is pretty new/short. Perhaps you can see how it feels now to accept forgiveness may not come for years, and rather than a singular event, be an act of softening over time.

Forgiveness for me means understanding and accepting another person behaves in ways I choose not to. And that is their choice, however harmful it may be. But I also can decide to limit my exposure to such people.

It never means condoning a choice, or not implementing comsequences designed to protect me.

It mainly means letting go, so I may have peace. It's much more about me having sanity than "giving" anything to the person in need of forgiveness.

Hi mhca, a wise soul around these parts recommended a good book to me on the forgiveness topic called How Can I Forgive You? by Janice Spring. The point is whether you choose to give the gift of forgiveness or not, the point is letting go of your baggage. Some people have to do this by forgiving. Others can't forgive but there is freedom in that as well.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0060009314?pc_redir=1408079062&robot_redir=1#

I have chosen to not forgive in my sitch, but not to remain bitter and jaded because of it.

The choice is yours to make and there is no hurry make that decision.

MHCA

First of all, as others have said, I would ignore that moronic post you just received . It obviously was some form of sick joke.

I would suggest you also not worry about forgiveness. There is absolutely nothing to forgive her for. She thoughtfully signed up on Ashley Madison , went numerous times to fuck other men, treated you contemptuously, humiliated you, and them tried to deceive you further by wasting your time in MC while still having a secret outlet to restart her affair with the fuck buddy she liked the best. What on earth is there to forgive her for. ??? Your goal should be to forget you ever knew her name, not forgive her. And when you find a decent woman, and you will , this piece of shot wife of hours will be a distant memory.

Both of your children will figure out the divorce was because their mother behaved like a whore, and they will figure it out just by watching her behavior. Don't worry about whether or not she is staying overnight with her new boyfriend . She is going to fuck him too, had the meet up planned before you called it quits and does not need to stay out overnight to do it.

There was no mention of her even being in contact with this guy until she wanted to hurt you with it.

So just keep moving forward as you are doing and try your best to get as much of her out of your life as possible, and give her as little as your lawyer deems necessary.

When this is over you will find a good woman. She will spend most of her social life flat on her back in hotel rooms as her quickest way to drown herself in ego kibbles will be to head right back to her computer to Ashley Madison.

There is no need to forgive her. And no need to respond to posts like the one a few back. You are above that .

Thanks everyone. Forgiveness is going to be a tricky issue for me. Mainly because of what happened during false R back in March. I looked deep (and I mean, deep) inside myself to forgive her. I knew about her Ashley Madison adventures but thought they had been over since December.

I knew she wasn't really taking responsiblity. All her apologies were forced and insincere, and she hated talking about any of the A stuff. But the anger was burning a hole in my stomach and I somehow found forgiveness.

When I offered it to her (in MC) I said that I didn't want the A to define our M, and with tears in my eyes I looked at her and forgave her.

Immediately I knew it as a mistake. I didn't get any acknowledgement from her -- it was as if she didn't need or want forgiveness. And the the MC took the conversation forward, away from the A.

I felt like a chump, like I'd been played, and that what I looked so hard to find and offered up with painful sacrifice had been ignored. I should have expected it, that had been the story all along.

So forgiving again (if that ever happens) won't come easy.

But I still need to step away from this anger for my own sake. And for the kids. Dealing with an unforgiven co-parent seems like it will be hard. On the other hand, shouldn't she have to do something before I offer forgiveness? Ugh.

Forgiveness is overrated and not necessary for you to heal. I Suggest you pursue indifference instead.

But I still need to step away from this anger for my own sake. And for the kids. Dealing with an unforgiven co-parent seems like it will be hard. On the other hand, shouldn't she have to do something before I offer forgiveness? Ugh.

My IC told me that holding onto the anger and bitterness will only make me angry and bitter and unable to move forward in a healthy manner. That being said, I am in no place ready to forgive him as I also sat in MC and gave him my heartfelt forgiveness with tears streaming down my face and he gave me nothing in return...no empathy, no remorse, no sincere apology. Instead I heard "I don't know how to stop seeing her, I am emotionally attached to her, night shift is so lonely and I find myself drawn to her"

So forgiveness will be a future goal of mine. I will not let his infidelity and brokenness define me. I need to heal myself, my kids and then if it is time, forgive him. He has done this to us, our marriage, our future and our family just as your wife has. Someday I will stop blaming myself.

But I still need to step away from this anger for my own sake. And for the kids. Dealing with an unforgiven co-parent seems like it will be hard. On the other hand, shouldn't she have to do something before I offer forgiveness? Ugh.

Mhca, you don't have to forgive in order to be well. With the amount of injustice I was served at the hands of my own personal offender I could not forgive. It's not that I'm not ready to forgive, I don't want to. On many levels I can't. Too much injustice in my life.

But that doesn't mean I have to sacrifice my soul or any part of my well being. That book I mentioned above is about coming to terms with acceptance. My offender will never apologize or do anything to earn forgiveness. Expect that yours won't either. You don't need her to do anything for you to be able to move forward with acceptance and begin your healing process. In fact, I recommend her having nothing to do with your healing process. Too much injustice there that will never be set right. Acceptance was the concept others mentioned to me here. Acceptance, not forgiveness is the message that book drives home.

Not that I want to pile on or pick on anyone, but you have a really bad example of "forgiveness" in your own life to avoid. Did your stbxww really "forgive" you for your past bouts with depression and drinking? You said that it had been years ago. That you thought you were past it as a couple and that she had "forgiven" you. I for one believe her when she says she does resent you for those things and that they are just a piece of her brokenness. Another piece of her brokenness is her passive aggressive nature to "forgive". She "forgave" by rebelling through omission and signing up for AM. She withdrew from you physically and emotionally. Her brand of "forgiveness" was manipulative, her way of getting even, her way of obtaining power and being in control. In other words at her core she is angry, petty, envious, and above all selfish. This is someone who believes relationships are a power game. I bet you have seen this passive aggressive form of "forgiveness" throughout your marriage? The angrier she gets the quieter she gets? She continues to act out by going on dates (in this case now under the guise of a drink date)? I keep mentioning a pattern. Does this ring true at all or am I off the mark here? She's pissed at you so how is she going to forgive you or help you forgive her? She's going to follow her passive aggressive pattern and find ways to hurt you. She's a conflict avoider that's only going to give the illusion of peace while she continues to plot in her passive aggressive narcissistic character.

Her illusions of peace are going to continue to cost you dearly mhca. I fear that you still do not see her for what she is. She's awfully quiet right now right? Not telling you how she really feels now but will lash out in a passive aggressive manner at some point. Outwardly she humbles herself and accepts blame for the A. Inwardly she feels innocent and gloats. That was apparent from her posts. She continues to not change herself or battle these demons. Her relationships will follow the same pattern. Even the ones with your kids. Like I said mhca I feel like I'm watching history repeat itself again. I could be wrong on all that but I don't think I am.

So why forgive? She is not going to show you anything to earn it. She can't. She doesn't know how. No empathy for you. Why forgive her? It's your choice to forgive if you want. But it's a gift. Not something that's earned. Look what she did with that gift last time when you poured your fucking heart out. She took your heart and ate it. You can forgive, but don't feel you have to. What most perceive forgiveness to be is an assumption based on beliefs. It doesn't have to be. It can be acceptance so that you can move on and heal without dismissing the injustice of it all.

yop

Forgiveness is overrated and not necessary for you to heal.

This^^ Some people need to forgive to move forward with their life, some do not. Don't confuse the need to forgive with basic acceptance. I have accepted what my XPOS has done because there is nothing I can do to change the past, and that has freed me from letting it define me and my future, but I will never forgive or forget.

Thanks everyone. The concept of forgiveness is a difficult one. I read a bunch of things before I offered forgiveness last time. I thought I understood but either I was wrong or I just didn't understand the depth of depravity I was dealing with. Or a combination of the two.

The one thing I know is that I need to detach and move past my anger. My STBX wants things to appear normal, happy, joyful. Once I'm out of the picture she'll be able to have that charade.

And I'll also have normal, happy, joyful. But I'll insist on it also being authentic. (I remember once, she said she hated the word "authentic." I guess now I know why.)

We need to be apart. She can have the best life she can put together for herself, either genuine after a total tear-down and rebuild, or a facade. For me, I feel like I've already done the tear-down and have advanced to the rebuild stage. Slow but steady.

I guess I need to accept that she's broken, that she doesn't understand it, and it's out of my control. I don't need to forgive her, but I suppose in some way eventually I'll sympathize a bit with her brokenness. If forgiveness comes, I'll welcome that. If not, acceptance will be the key to releasing my bitterness. In the mean time, I'm going to protect myself so she can't hurt me any more. And I'm going to keep my eye on my precious children to make sure they don't get dragged into any of this.

YoP: Your post has reminded my of many things before the A. There has been a streak of selfishness that I should have been concerned with. I'm not pure either, I've been too concerned with my own interests plenty of times. But to answer your question, your remarks do ring true. Too true. Thank for you taking the time to help me stay on track.

Thanks to all of you. It's been so god damn hard. Sometimes I wonder how I could stand another moment of this.

[This message edited by mhca at 10:43 PM, August 18th (Monday)]

Softcentre: Now, I don't know if you're a Christian?

Actually, kinda the opposite. I'm an atheist.

But, I do believe in forgiveness, and I do believe in redemption. But it has to be justified.

To me forgiveness means you let go of the anger. I think WS's think it is letting go of the anger and accepting their bad behavior and letting bygones be bygones. I think you can forgive a person and never want to be around them again in your life.

Do you ever see mothers of murdered children tell the convicted murder that they forgive them? Does that mean they will be visiting this guy in prison or writing them letters? No. It just means they are letting go of the pain.

I don't think you have to rush into forgiveness, though. I think it may take years to get into the proper mindset to forgive. It is hard to forgive somebody when they are still twisting the knife in your back. Once you are divorced or truly reconciled, then maybe you will be able to get the distance from the pain and allow yourself to forgive her.

Hey mhca, haven't seen you post anything for a while, just wondering how you are travelling?

Hey RI, thanks for asking. Things have settled down a bit. Attorney meetings. STBX and I met with a financial specialist earlier this week. Stuff like that. Normal but with a layer of sadness overlaying everything, like an oily fog.

At one of the meetings I got irritated about being there (thinking we're discussing how the outcome of her betrayal is walking away with this or that large amount of cash) but kept my temper for the most part. Afterward WW gave me a note as I was leaving that said she'd regret what she did for the rest of her life. I guess I feel a little better that she understands the damage she did, but I feel worse knowing how little she did to try to help us recover from it.

Now, even after the denial and blame-shifting and all that ended, after all that she still couldn't open up to me. She still feels like a stranger.

I took the kids to a ballgame tonight and on the way back, walking to the metro station we walked by the hotel where she had her trysts (using their economical "day rate.") Very convenient for a SAHM. I wondered if I would feel anything about that but it was such an ordinary looking place it didn't really register. I wondered if she went with him to the sex shop across the street. I think she probably did because during false R she bought a sex book, very out of character for her. So I'm assuming there's another lie of omission.

So it's so sad, because I feel like it might have worked out. We might have used this as a springboard for openness and vulnerability and finally talking to each other about the deeper and more important things but she just wouldn't. I'm not sure whether to call it a mid-life crisis or something else. She doesn't love me. Or she's too weak. Or she LMBNIILWM. Or really does want the M to end but wants to pretend it isn't her doing. Or she has some PD. Or some another cause. Mystifying, like the whole fucking eight-month drama, it's just crazy and frustrating. The ultimate mind-fuck.

And actually, it bothers me that I even give a shit at this point. It's over. We're divorcing. It's her fault that we didn't get a shot at R. My decision, but her fault. I gave her opportunity and opportunity over months and months and she just mailed it in. Pretended. Defended her ego. Defended the other men (because telling me their names "wouldn't be fair to them.") She just couldn't do the work. And finally I just hit the wall, I couldn't absorb any more pain. I had literally nothing else to give. Nothing.

So now there's nothing to worry about other than dollars and cents and selling the house and figuring out custody. I have to heal on my own, she has to heal (or not I guess, maybe she never will) on her own.

So I've got at least seven more years of co-parenting to do with her, probably two or three or four interactions a week. I'd like to think I know who this woman it is I'm dealing with, but I don't. I really don't know her at all.

I wonder if maybe, even subconsciously, she got off on hurting me? She was the powerless SAHM, and I'm the guy that goes out in the world. Did she envy me? Want to knock me down a notch or two? When I cried did she feel powerful? It's a possibility. Again, don't know. We would have had to have been honest with each other to find and fix stuff like that, and of course we didn't come close to that.

I felt a wave of anger this afternoon, and then watching our baseball team win, I felt sadness. Did I mention that the night of D-Day #2 I took DS15 there to the ballpark? On his birthday? Maybe the worst night of my life. Can't really say there was a trigger tonight though. After choosing D there don't really seem to be triggers or flashbacks like there were before. Maybe now my brain knows they're irrelevant. Not going to R, so nothing to do with the trigger signal.

Sorry for rambling. As you can tell I have a lot of work to do, in IC and elsewhere. But I'm coming along. I'm actually happy a few times during the day. I feel like my interactions at work are getting better. Coming home after work (yes, in-house separation sucks) is a drag, but I hope that won't be too much longer. And the kids are hanging in well.

Already talking to real estate agents. Probably not too far from a place of my own, and we might do very well selling this place (San Francisco market, seems to be on an up-cycle).

Today's horrible memory du jour was during false R, when she asked me why I thought what she did at first (dates and groping and kissing and texting with guys from Ashley Madison) was such a betrayal. "It was just a cup of coffee." She said that while she was already fucking one of them though. She knew why it was such a betrayal didn't tell me, instead she was asking me.

Is she still that person would could do such a thing? Is she a different person? I don't see that she's actually doing anything to change so why would I assume anything actually has changed? Why assume she's ever telling the truth? It just fucking sucks.

I'll stop now. Could go on much longer. Thanks for reading if you made it this far.

That was a powerful post. Thank you for sharing that with us. Sadly, I don't know what to say except recommending counselling for you&the kids, but I wanted to say you've been heard.

Best wishes to you and your family!

Hi mhca. I know that it's easy to get caught up in the what ifs, the who is she really, the fact that she is regretful, etc. She probably doesn't know what is wrong herself.

However, what you need to stay focused on is what you do know about her. She hasn't told you how she really feels and continues to be passive aggressive. That question about betrayal is an ultimate p/a move. She continues to not fix herself and probably has no idea how to. For these reasons she is not safe. Especially for relationships but probably not safe for negotiations either. She's not going to tell you what she's really thinking or feeling. This is what she continues to show you and you need to focus on. Be wary mhca. I worry about you.

You posts are fought to read mhca but I will ways be listening. Stay strong!

yop