SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I'm so very sorry mhca. I'm not surprised. She has no idea what she's doing to you and the kids. Even if you say it doesn't I know this shit still hurts. My heart went into my throat reading that email chain. BTDT. She's just never going to get it. She keeps following the same pattern.

There was a brilliant post by MegM in a wayward thread yesterday. I hope no one minds me quoting it but I think it's very pertinent to this situation with your kids:

MegM - My therapist did a lot of work with me on my own parents infidelity and its effects on me. He explained that children experience parental infidelity as a traumatizing threat to there safety and security. They register is as basically 'life threatening'. Therefore when they are aware of affair issues representing or see the BS trigger, they can basically trigger back to their experience of trauma as well.

^^^^This is exactly what I went though as a kid. When your stbx pulls an event like staying out for the night or doing something that triggers you, she fails to see that it triggers the entire family even if they don't know it's infidelity related. She doesn't see consequences. She never has. She only wants what she wants regardless to how other's feel.

I would start documenting everything. This is why you need custody of the kids. If you really want to lessen the impact on the kids, could her parents help? If they knew what was going on with their daughter, even more so what sort of an impact this is having on the kids, would they reach out to her? No one can reach her to knock any sense into her because she doesn't see anything wrong.

Even though you can detach (regardless this shit still hurts), the kids cannot detach. Have they started IC yet?

yop

eta - typos

[This message edited by yearsofpain25 at 1:51 PM, August 12th (Tuesday)]

mhca, listen to everyone here. Particularly to the kids IC thing.

* Don't argue with her, or check if she's seeing a man. Not your problem if the kids are not with her, and you're just inviting pain as she lies and gaslights you - plus it's fun for her, the same dynamic that she had in M she gets in S - I say to hell with that crap!

* Take your kids to therapy if you haven't. My kid goes every week, as I'm worried about what she's exposed over there. But at the same time, it would be too painful for me to pry and serves no purpose. My own IC plus a child therapist (at our church) keeps me honest and keeps tabs on my kids' development and issues. And she's obligated to inform if there's something seriously going on/talks to dd8 and myself about the proper moral examples to give DD8 according to our beliefs. Works out well. And if it comes down to a custody thing, it's clearly in the best interests of the child. I am not dating until D is final. This is also in the kids' best interests at this time, as she goes to a religious school.

So focus on the kids' best interests, putting both you and her out of the equation. Be the stable parent.

When it comes down to talking to Ls, educators and judges, who do you think people will listen to? The wayward with the chaotic life and a sense of money entitlement, or the stable parent who took them to therapy, takes care of them at least 50/50, pays for their support and veils for their safety? Trust me that the judge has seen it all, and can recognize an entitled wayward.

Don't let her make you out to be the "jealous, controlling husband". That's her only narrative to get more $ from you through the Ls, and she's winning by you engaging her like that. Think about how that exchange will look in front of a judge.

Detach, man.. Focus on caring for your kids, who really are suffering through this.

[This message edited by GotPlayed at 2:01 PM, August 12th, 2014 (Tuesday)]

I just told her I'd take care of the kids so she can sleep over with the guy.

The problem is a pretty typical one for her: she can explain why it's ok ("We're separating, they're not planning sex, no big deal, whatever...") but on another level is so offensive and tone-deaf and plays into all the shit she's been doing during the A that it makes me sick. I don't know whether it's intentional or she doesn't see it or doesn't care, or what.

I need to detach and protect the kids, you guys are right, thanks.

It's both mhca. She's fucking with you and she doesn't know anything different. She keeps following that same pattern. I for one am no longer in the maybe she was at least in the good mother camp. That stops knowing that she is now knowingly deliberately effecting your kids.

Gloves off mhca. Document everything. Push or 100% custody. Many guys here have gotten it. Talk to 545. Lawyer up. Protect those kids. You are the the stable parent. IC and you take them. She's doing the damage and your left to clean up.

yop

MHCA

I am stunned and appalled at what I just read. Unfortunately, I happen to agree with the other posters, this is just the tip of the iceberg. Asking you to watch the kids while she goes to a hotel drinks and spends a night with a man? Oh, but don't tell the kids "cause it's not a big deal"???? The papers haven't even been filed yet! I would go with the gloves off kick her out and have her served sighting adultery now. You can always go with collaborative bargaining later. You are obviously a successful businessman, play the game first from now on. Detach yourself, protect your kids, go for full custody, and inform her parents and friends of everything! You owe her NOTHING including respect going forward.

No more nice and civil, she isn't.

Still angry but taking deep breaths. Mentally pulling away. Anyway, she reponded to my telling her I'd handle the kids while she was away:

Thank you. It really wasn't a big deal to me, and I could change the plans if needed.

And I couldn't help myself, had to reply even though it probably does me no good at all:

Your call. I'm not sure what this guy is thinking if he's in a real relationship, spending the night in a hotel like like with another woman. And if his kid is there then that's appalling. But I guess people have to make their own choices. Clearly we have different value systems going and I have to accept that. I'm stepping back. See you tonight.

She's flying back from the east coast with my kids tonight. Haven't seen them in 10 days. I miss them.

Update: she replied:

[Guy's name] is a friend. If we were still together, you would meet him if he was in [our town]. There is no interest other than catching up. I would never do anything in front of his or any other child. There is no threat to anything or any one.

However, I will take your concerns into account.

Oh lord. I'm stepping off this train. I can't take it any more.

[This message edited by mhca at 4:58 PM, August 12th (Tuesday)]

It's a game mhca and she knows how to play you. She knows where to pull at your heart strings. Whether it's just to enact vengeance on you for filing or if she's trying to make you jealous to remind you how you feel about her I don't know. Either way she gets an emotional reaction from you and she gets some ego kibble from the other man.

Look to be blunt... You are still protecting her (or so it seems to me) in regards to being a good mother. You have hidden her secrets, become her baby sitter (although it get that's a hard one when you are their dad and don't resent getting the time alone with them), have seen her get upset with ds15 because he expressed concerns with you about something his mother has said. You talk about being relieved to detach from her (totally get) but don't seem to admit at least on here (maybe you do in R and I'm completely off base ) that your children don't. You state how toxic she has become but I can't find a single post where you have said that she might be toxic to your children, despite the many posters who have expressed their concerns about it. It is if you deflect it by just concentrating on how angry she makes you!

I get that this is overwhelming and maybe all you can cope with at the moment, lord knows you have been through so much that this could be the case and no one would really blame you. However, ask yourself why you can see the person she has become as your wife, but as yet haven't appeared to be able to admit DIRECTLY, what she has become as a mother. Are you still holding onto the view you have of her because she still hugs the kids, looks after the physical needs and seems to love them still? Because that doesn't make her a fit mum. And when you are out of her life, there is no completely stable person in the house any more to temper your wife's obvious selfish streak. So, she's playing games now with men, how is she going to play later on when you no longer care who she is fucking? What is she going to teach the kids in the house when you aren't there, she doesn't hold the same values to you, and holds some pretty fucked ones instead. Why do you seem to not admit that you aren't the only person to be betrayed and hurt by that. And whilst you get out your boys don't.

I know that is very in your face, I'm not trying to push you too hard, but listen to people like yop and megm who have felt infidelity from a child's perspective. I get you don't want to get vengeance on her by taking everything you can and it shows real character after what you have been through. But this isn't about punishing her, it's about the most healthy environment for your kids, do you really feel that a 50/50 split or less for you, is the best thing for your kids? And I don't say this because she cheated originally. If she had shown an ounce of getting it and giving a shit and you still decided to divorce, then I would get you wanting to split 50/50 but she is still showing EXTREMELY poor decision making and does not seem to get why this will effect the kids. IMHO that isn't a great environment for children and could also completely ruin your kids relationships with their mother by seeing that.

Anyway, just my opinion. I really am rooting for you mhca!

Hey RomanticInnocenc (and YoP, and MegM, and everyone):

You're right. I deserve 2x4's for not confronting the issue of how fit a mom my STBX is. She certainly compromised our family by having the A, and there were some incidents where she compromised the kids for her own selfishness during the A (showing up late for a travel game because she was busy texting in the hotel, for example).

But: I'm so conflicted. There's no doubt whatsoever that "on paper" she's a very good mother. Gets them to their appointments, reads to the younger boy, prepares healthy meals, goes to most of their school meetings, arranges time with other kids, and the like.

And outward appearance is that her love for them is sincere. But I've also seen her compartmentalize and put on masks so readily and deceive so smoothly that I don't know what her real feelings are to them.

I haven't seen any verbal abuse but DS15 says she gets "upset" sometimes. Especially after I've criticized her behavior.

The fact of the matter is that she was unfaithful, and that made the M untenable, and therefore the family has disintegrated. And the kids will suffer for that and I hate that. It may have broken up anyway but that's hard to say.

So, we know she's not a good example as far as fidelity, and she has some narcissistic tendencies. Her empathy quotient is very low. Her image is very important. She needs external validation. Etc.

But what kind of mom will she be? Is she toxic to the kids? I'll admit to some level of denial in not wanting to think about that. And the real answer, for now anyway, is I don't really know.

In California, it's very unusual for two parents who want custody to get anything other than joint legal and physical custody, and usually the split is close to even if that's what's desired by one of the parents. What would it take to tip the balance? I have no idea. What's best for the kids? I know for sure they need my presence, and hell of a lot more than 20%. But how much? I just don't know.

Also in California, it doesn't usually matter how horrible the infidelity was, how many men, how disgusting the behavior, or how deep the deception. As I understand it, "no fault" is taken to the limit here. In a contested custody situation the court could look to child evaluaters to change that, but the evidence (I think) would have to be clear and convincing. I'm new and have to learn more but that's my understanding. And IANAL.

I guess I'm floundering. Cause I don't know all the implications or even the facts of my STBX's fitness. I just don't know.

[This message edited by mhca at 10:53 PM, August 12th (Tuesday)]

mhca,

I love CA. For all the "no fault" pain, on the other hand we men will get 50/50 custody by just asking and not being total idiots.

Having said that, honestly, a lot of what puts her in good mother camp (appointments, doing homework with them, preparing meals, going to the school meetings, playdates, etc) is things you could also do. It's hard. You probably will need a nanny if you work full time. But you can get it done.

I know it because I'm doing it. And STBXWW is (was?) also a good mom.

And you know what? As soon as I started doing it, she stopped. Today I went to my SN DS10's classroom for the teacher orientation. She was the only parent not there. She's not working. Where is she? Hell if I know. Yesterday she got the wrong date for DD8's school by an entire week. The school calendar is right there on her phone. She claims to worry about DD8 but hasn't talked to her child's psychologist, who has now made an appointment with me as she can't reach her. There's lots of holes in the good mom story (part of being a good mother is not betraying your family - because the betrayal also happened to the kids, as many of the now-grown kids here have shown you how they feel about it).

So think about it. As your STBXWW's world falls apart, she may very much drop the ball on a bunch of stuff. Your kids need at least one stable parent. You know who the stable parent is. It sucks, but we gotta pick up that slack.

My head spins, I'm constantly tired (SN DD10 is like having 3 kids, two of them toddlers), and work is crazy, stressful and I have essentially no money. But I'm making it work. I hired a (more expensive) sitter that specializes in special needs and she's doing great. She loves the kids and hopefully things will work out with her taking over some of the more routine things.

You are Not a Lawyer, yes. But you don't have to be, that's why you hire one. And hire a therapist for you and for your kids. Your end goal needs to be the stability of your kids, to stop this crap from occurring to the next generation. If you don't have a way of knowing if she's stable or not, better be prepared.

Sometimes I wonder if STBX is not subconsciously actually actively trying to lose custody, it gets so bad. Sometimes I just don't know. It doesn't matter though - her fitness, in S/D doesn't even enter the equation as far as I'm concerned. I enjoy my kids when they're with me, I miss them when they're not, and I have a nice, if less fancy, household for them.

I'd welcome any judge or child psychologist to my home. If there's no other reward to this than a couple of well-adjusted kids, I'll feel it was time and money well spent.

Since your wife took the trouble to read here, but didn't want to do what it takes to recover, you can count on her reading here simply to get a feel for your legal strategy ahead of any actions you might take.

So beware - do not post anything you are discussing with your lawyer, or bounce ideas here on how to protect your legal rights. And those who want to post legal strategy would do well to private message those ideas instead. Because any idea you give here, you're also giving to her.

She's treating you like you're stupid with this "friend-overnight" thing. She thinks you're a chump. So button up the information leaks until after the victories.

[This message edited by k8la at 6:50 AM, August 13th (Wednesday)]

Please, please, I'm begging you, run! Don't walk, run away from this woman. I was in the same exact boat, about a year ago. She has completely disconnected from you. I still hear the same feelings in your text responses to her I saw in my own when I transcribed 6-mo of text messages between the two of us for court use.

I can see you still care. I can see you still have that tiny glimmer of hope. I can see the pain you feel (I felt it) when you discuss her blatant disregard for your feelings and her obvious plans to have sex with this man. I dealt with the same thing. Realize this is not going to be fixed. She is not going to reconcile. She is, for now, lost to you. AND as soon as she realizes the implications of divorce to her life she will lash out. And you, as a male/provider, have the deck stacked against you.

The BEST thing I could've done? Started NC with her. I feel like I was pretty wise with my communications, but I'm only in the middle of D. I can definitely see how anything you say, however, can be used against you by a crafty lawyer, and believe me, she WILL GET A CRAFTY LAWYER.

Protect yourself and protect your children. NC now. Move out. File today. End this now. DO NOT WAIT. Do not communicate ANYTHING unless it is directly related to the children. Keep texts to a minimum, and try to use emails when you can. All this I wish I believed when this started. Please, please take measures to protect yourself and believe this relationship is over and only harm can come from holding onto it in any degree.

Also, do not ever be alone with her. If you are, start your phone recorder. She will lie. Just in case I didn't say that loudly enough, SHE WILL LIE. Please protect yourself!

I am probably projecting, but your situation seems much to familiar for me not to do so.

Wow.

Reading this gives me chills.

I am feeling the same way and reading about how infidelity hurts the kids is absolutely heartbreaking.

My WH has no qualms about anything he is doing, doesn't see how it has affected the kids at all and has made no effort to get them into counseling. I have. I am.

My state is also a 'no fault' state and through my attorney I have learned that infidelity/affairs can be brought in with child custody cases only so maybe that will be your in. I was told to document dates, times, etc everything to do with the kids, save text messages and try to discuss things via email as much as possible as to make a paper trail. Also with voice recordings make sure it is legal in your state otherwise the other party has to be aware that you are recording them.

Doesn't seem fair that these selfish spouses can cause all this turmoil in our lives and not see how it is affecting the very people they claim they aren't hurting the most...the kids.

A good mother sets her selfish wants aside, for the well being of her children.

A good mother does not actively seek out fuckbuddies on fuckbuddy sites.

A good mother does not risk her life, or her children's father's life b y engaging in very risky sexual behavior.

A good mother does not cause the father of her children enormous, life altering pain.

A good mother protects her children, in all ways, at all times.

Was she a good mom before she decided to cheat? Quite possibly. She might have been a GREAT mom. But she chucked that title out the window when she signed up for AM.

I have no doubt she loves her kids..but not all mothers are GOOD mothers.

My mother has been an OW for years. I can not begin to explain how this has affected me. Even before dday. Im sorry, I can't recall if all of your children are aware that mom has been cheating. But, one day, they will put the pieces together and know what she did to destroy their family. And the fact that dad offered R, but she couldn't stay NC with her OM.

It always shocks me when a wayward believes their actions don't affect the kids. Such delusional, self serving bullshit.

Thanks everyone. I'm still in a stunned frame of mind. I'm going to respond to your comments soon.

At the moment I'm reflecting, yesterday she revealed the name of the guy she's planning to spend the night with "to catch up." If my memory serves, this guy had an open marriage (apparently divorced and in a new relationship now, don't know the terms of that) and he and my STBXWW exchanged "flirty" facebook messages before the Ashley Madison shit started last year. This was something she admitted to early on to deflect me finding out about the second Ashley Madison account.

Fuck my life.

[This message edited by mhca at 1:44 PM, August 13th (Wednesday)]

MHCA

I know you don't want to do this, but I would make sure to tell the kids when they ask where mom is going, "she has a sleepover date" with another man. Don't lie to them, she has told enough lies to last them a lifetime. Besides, kids are more perceptive than we think. I would not be surprised if DS15 has already figured out she had an A.

Some more thoughts. Sorry I'm scattered right now and not ready to reply directly to your great comments but I will (I promise!).

Went to IC today. Talked about how I've had the last 10 days alone to reflect on the last 8 months and how it's a pretty grim landscape. The depth of the betrayal is so stark when you step back from the day-to-day interactions with WW. Nothing has caused me to think for a moment that D is the wrong course. It also confirmed the need for me to be strong for DS15 and DS10 because they need me.

My mind is still blown away by her planning to spend the night next week in a hotel with another man in a LTR. A man she flirted with over facebook while we were married before her A. I try to imagine doing something like that if the tables were turned and I just can't imagine doing it. How could I have married someone who would do something like that? Oops.

Got the retainer agreement from the L today. Wheels are turning. STBX selected a L too. Still collaborative unless she lies or manipulates.

I wonder if she's still reading my posts?

Oh mhca, I can feel the pain permeating through your posts. Your stbxww is still being incredibly selfish and cruel. You really need to disengage from her. Kids and finances should be all you discuss, if you don't have any other contact then she has less opportunity to keep jabbing at you with the knife that was in your back. Intellectually you know that D is the only course of action that protects you from this woman that has become your wife, but you still have to mourn the future you thought you had, the woman you thought you had married and the family you thought you'd always have. Don't beat yourself up for your grief, just try and hang on to the anger long enough to get you through the D, you can fall apart then and really start the real healing, away from your stbxww.

I can't imagine the extra pain you must be going through on top of the original betrayals. It's good you are still seeing an IC to help you through. Just hold on mhca, try and see from outside of your situation the kind of woman and mother that your wife is, and decide what you think is the best for yourself and the boys and then just take each step as it comes!

Thanks again everyone. The SI community is awesome. I can't imagine working through this horrible experience without your help. And I say that as someone with the benefit of weekly IC and a loving father who listens to me for hours on end. Finally to take a little closer heed to some of your comments, and by the way, if I don't respond directly to some of your points it may be because WW probably is reading and I don't want to make an awful situation even more awful. I responded a bit to the custody issues and the "fit mother" question earlier by talking about how things work in California: Good in that there isn't really a pro-mother bias, but bad in that sole custody isn't really possible in any but the very worst situations and even this case of infidelity doesn't rise to that (believe it or not). But to some other comments:

MegM via YoP: Children experience parental infidelity as a traumatizing threat to there safety and security. They register is as basically 'life threatening'. Therefore when they are aware of affair issues representing or see the BS trigger, they can basically trigger back to their experience of trauma as well.

I've mentioned several times that I think DS15 knows of the infidelity. I don't think I've mentioned exactly why yet so I'll explain. Beyond just the months of drama and reasonable inferences that a very smart, analytical teenager can draw, there are three important facts:

1. He (along with DS10) woke up the morning of Christmas Eve and found me, his reasonably stoic father, crying unconsolably on their grandfather's couch. And then being a basket case for weeks afterwards.

2. He knows that the following week I lost my temper and yelled at her in a public place (hockey rink where our kids were playing a tournament, I'm so sorry I allowed that to happen).

3. He is not an idiot.

So I can't imagine that he hasn't put two and two together. And yet I feel like I can't just directly say "we're divorcing because your mother cheated and lied." I suspect in the eyes of the court that would make me look guilty if custody got ugly. And it just goes against my nature to talk shit to the kids about their mother. It just seems so wrong. And then the kids would just see me being hostile. So it's a horrible situation because, if he knows, and we don't acknowledge it, then he will see we're keeping secrets about the fundamental thing that turned his life upside down. I guess ideally she'd tell them, but she wouldn't. And she'd probably blame-shift anyway so I don't actually want her to do that. I feel like there's no good answer here. (Parenthetical note, infidelity sucks ass if you didn't already realize that.)

YoP: Even though you can detach (regardless this shit still hurts), the kids cannot detach. Have they started IC yet?

They will. I know I keep saying that, but they will. First step is the evaluation of the child specialist who is part of the collaborative divorce team.

GotPlayed: Don't argue with her, or check if she's seeing a man. Not your problem if the kids are not with her, and you're just inviting pain as she lies and gaslights you - plus it's fun for her, the same dynamic that she had in M she gets in S - I say to hell with that crap!

You're right of course, but it's hard to watch the woman I loved for 20 years act so poorly and just stand by. Something I know I need to get better at, and I think I am.

So focus on the kids' best interests, putting both you and her out of the equation. Be the stable parent.

Trying soooo hard.

YoP: She's fucking with you and she doesn't know anything different. She keeps following that same pattern. I for one am no longer in the maybe she was at least in the good mother camp. That stops knowing that she is now knowingly deliberately affecting your kids.

As GotPlayed suggested, I want to get to a place where it doesn't matter whether she's fucking with me or just doesn't get it. I can just focus on what the kids are exposed to and deal with that directly. And if she wants to play sleepover with some college pal then she can have at it.

imalive: I am stunned and appalled at what I just read.

So am I. One of the reasons I write this stuff out is so I can refer back to it to remind myself that, oh yeah, that actually happened. And to hear from people here who understand just how awful it is since clearly WW doesn't.

GotPlayed: Having said that, honestly, a lot of what puts her in good mother camp (appointments, doing homework with them, preparing meals, going to the school meetings, playdates, etc) is things you could also do. It's hard. You probably will need a nanny if you work full time. But you can get it done.

Weird irony here. The A has been so devatating to me and my work has suffered to the point that it's very likely I'll be pushed out of the company soon. There's huge turmoil here anyway, my VP was fired, reorg, etc. So I might not make it. BUT: I can afford to get fired. We've done well enough I could take a few years off and focus 24/7 on the kids if that was the best for them. (Still in California, wouldn't get sole custody, but I could be the most devoted father ever.) And it would be her fault because her A caused the underlying work problems to start with. During false R she even pressured me into not taking a leave of absence when I was doing really badly (I later found out that my being at home would be inconvenient for her texting habit.)

k8la: She's treating you like you're stupid with this "friend-overnight" thing. She thinks you're a chump.

Yup, and one of my conditions for R was her making me feel like she wouldn't make me a chump again. I used those words almost exactly. That condition wasn't met. Interestingly, the very first words I told her after my initial confrontation back on D-Day#1 were "You must think I'm a fucking idiot" based on her failed attempts to conceal the truth from me.

Kingsj: I can see you still care. I can see you still have that tiny glimmer of hope. I can see the pain you feel (I felt it) when you discuss her blatant disregard for your feelings and her obvious plans to have sex with this man. I dealt with the same thing. Realize this is not going to be fixed. She is not going to reconcile. She is, for now, lost to you.

You're right. The thing is, after 20 years (I proposed to her in the summer of 1994) a person's brain is wired so the partner is literally part of them. Removing that person isn't done with the flip of a switch. The brain actually has to be rewired to fully separate. And I was unhealthily enmeshed to start with, so it takes time. I have the feelings of caring, the glimmer is an emotion but logically I know it's over. I so wish I could detach at will, but regrettably being human and not having a convenient PD, I can't.

Move out. File today. End this now. DO NOT WAIT.

That would be the best for my emotional health but bad legal strategy and unhelpful for the kids. So it will take some time. I so want out of here. I will be soon.

Futurefear: Wow. Reading this gives me chills.

Me too. Ever hear of the "uncanny valley?" It's a technical term used in animation about how creepy it is when animated people are too close to being human. If they're cartoony everyone sees it's a cartoon. And if it's perfect, people perceive normal humans. But in between, it's not quite human, it's surreal, and comes across as very very creepy. That conversation made me feel like my WW is in the uncanny valley, not quite human. (For the curious: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncanny_valley)

confused615: A good mother sets her selfish wants aside, for the well being of her children. A good mother does not actively seek out fuckbuddies on fuckbuddy sites. A good mother does not cause the father of her children enormous, life altering pain. A good mother protects her children, in all ways, at all times...It always shocks me when a wayward believes their actions don't affect the kids. Such delusional, self serving bullshit.

Nothing to say but so, so true. And very eloquent, thank you.

imalive: I know you don't want to do this, but I would make sure to tell the kids when they ask where mom is going, "she has a sleepover date" with another man. Don't lie to them, she has told enough lies to last them a lifetime.

My line in the sand is I will not lie to the children and she knows this. So if they ask, I will not insinuate but I will not protect her either.

RomanticInnocenc: Oh mhca, I can feel the pain permeating through your posts.

I wish my WW had the empathy you show with that simple sentence. But I guess if she did, I wouldn't even be on this site.

Intellectually you know that D is the only course of action that protects you from this woman that has become your wife, but you still have to mourn the future you thought you had, the woman you thought you had married and the family you thought you'd always have.

Yes indeed. It's the idea of who I thought she was and what I thought our lives would be like that I mourn. I was looking at early retirement and the chance to spend lots of time with her and the kids. Living a charmed life. But that obviously wasn't what the real WW wanted and so it is not to be.

[This message edited by mhca at 3:22 AM, August 14th (Thursday)]

Dear mhca

The thing is, after 20 years (I proposed to her in the summer of 1994) a person's brain is wired so the partner is literally part of them. Removing that person isn't done with the flip of a switch. The brain actually has to be rewired to fully separate. And I was unhealthily enmeshed to start with, so it takes time. I have the feelings of caring, the glimmer is an emotion but logically I know it's over. I so wish I could detach at will, but regrettably being human and not having a convenient PD, I can't.

I've followed your posts a while now. You are an incredible person, and show strong character. You also show the vulnerability above, which is an admirable and attractive trait. (Um, I'm not trying to hit on you :)

Just want you to know your above statement makes so much sense. That you have made the decisions you've made, in the midst of enmeshment and all that wiring, is courageous.

I'm sure it must be so difficult to deal with this while at the same time having feelings for her. You have my empathy and compassion for your situation and feelings. Your kids have a mature, decent, kind, honorable father.

[This message edited by meleanoro at 3:30 AM, August 14th (Thursday)]

My line in the sand is I will not lie to the children and she knows this. So if they ask, I will not insinuate but I will not protect her either.

mhca)))))))))))))))

My own father refused to answer direct questions (@ my mother's actions) - to the point where I learned not to ask.

Though it frustrated the CRAP outta me, in the end, I think he was a genius. I have a certain sad resignation @ my mother, as little boys always will, under normal conditions (she was killed when I was 18), always love mommy no matter what...

but

I will always live my life in honor to Dad & what he did, what he sacrificed, and how his tongue-biting ultimately affected me and my boys,

because,

not too long ago, my oldest said; "Dad, I will never cheat."

To my stunned silence (& probable *icon* expression) followed up with;

"And I always respected you."

(again )

"Because you never talked bad about mom."

This is the heart-prize I've gained (THANKS DAD!) for my own tongue-biting silence.

How I danced the knife-edge between *not lying* and *not telling my boys the truth* I don't have the words to say, it was just a principle.

I learned.

In my genius-father's loving lap.