SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

thanks bigger im trying to stand firm in my stance and right now she seems to be done and im trying to cope with the fact she could jus give up soooo damn easy I dnt understand but I understand that I never will understand as dumb as that sounds and I do deserve better and want better im jus very hurt and im not used to being vulnerable I guess

Hotrod

Like Bigger stated you cannot keep her from her stuff and why would you want to. She's making a choice which is what she has done since she started her affair in the first place. She's pissed you are standing up to her and her BS. Although painful and even though you have attempted to force her hand numerous times she has decided to test your mentalty again.

Tell her by all means come and grab your stuff.You pick the time, your choice not hers. Have someone with you when she does because in her state of mind you never know which way her boat will float.

It is time to sit back and concentrate on you and let her see how life will be now that she really is on her own.

Do not be confrontational let your support person help you deal with her as it will be an emotional time and if anything is said in anger it may be irrepairable.

Hotrod,

I'm proud of how you're handling this. You're definitely moving in the right direction. What's important is to keep taking these steps forward.

There's an old saying...

When you're going through hell... keep going. It's the only way out.

Bigger has given you a lot of great advice, and I would suggest you hang on to every word he writes. There are a few points in particular I want to address as well.

- You mentioned you told your WW that you want to move forward, but that she will have to be the one to file if she wants to. I can see what you're getting at with wanting her to "own her shit", but at the same time you have to own yours as well. You made a very powerful statement, but then handed her the power. YOU ARE NOT A VICTIM. You are an empowered individual who is capable of navigating through the adversity to a healthier future. Think about it this way - you're standing at the train station ready to get on the last train out of Shittesville. Your WW is lolly-gagging around having a good ol' time rolling around in it. You've told her you're moving forward on that train and that you would prefer if she comes but that won't stop you. The choice is hers of course and you've informed her of what your plans and expectations are. The train has just blown to all aboard whistle and you've just told your WW that she will have to put you on that train.

There's two things wrong with this picture. The first is assuming that she has any incentive to file for divorce. Why bother? It's messy, it's work, it's reality and she sure as hell doesn't want to be dealing with that. That's why she's having an affair in the first place. WS's will often delay divorcing as it means their security and safety will be cut off. The second, and more important thing, is that she does not determine your future. She does not control you. Yes, she has input into what happens in the situation, but you are the one who is making your own decisions. Talking to a lawyer and getting papers in motion does one thing and one thing only. It protects you and your rights. Getting these logistical issues taken care of does not mean that you are divorcing or reconciling - you are protecting yourself however this ends up. This is not something to fool around with, lest you pay the rest of your life for allowing her to take advantage of you.

- We've talked about compartmentalisation and how the WS's can do this. Well, here's a little tidbit that many of us aren't aware of. We can do the same thing. It's a coping mechanism, and although it may not be the highest form in emotional maturity it can be effective in helping you move forward. Bigger mentioned that we need to keep the practical matters and issues separate from the emotional ones and this is very true. Keep your communication with her to email only. This gives you a paper trail and gives you time to think and formulate a response. When WS's see that their BS is willing to move on, they will often pull every string they can think of to try and keep you under control. They can rant, scream, accuse, cry, and throw you the odd scrap. Ignore the emotional darts and respond only to the pertinent issues. When they pull your strings, just let go of the string and let it snap back in their face.

- With her grabbing her stuff, it is hers legally. This is why you need to consult that lawyer. I would do like the others suggest and take pictures and put a list together. And as Bigger suggests be strategic and don't pay your lawyer $500 to argue over the $25 toaster. How do you respond to this request of hers? You let her take her stuff and have a witness stay at your house when she does. Better yet, you ask her when she is going to come over so that you can plan your activities (huh, what's that? you have a life?). Another option is to cheerfully offer to move her stuff out for her. Demonstrate with action that you are moving forward and that if she doesn't get her act together that she is the one at risk of losing you.

Again, I know how confusing this is. There is nothing wrong with feeling vulnerable - this is a very good thing in fact because it means that you are open to growth. She is not giving up on the marriage - truthfully she is giving up on herself and that it what she is trying to run away from. For some it is easier to run away than to face one's self, especially when one has made such selfish, destructive, and hurtful choices. A little secret though is that no matter where she runs, there she is.

Don't beat yourself up. You healing is a process and every process takes investment of time and effort (yes, I do suppose that was another thermo reference). When you can walk, you walk. When you can only crawl, you crawl. And when you gotta claw your way on your hands and knees, you dig 'em right fuckin' in. But eventually you're gonna get somewhere and eventually you will stand tall.

I know you hurt man. But that just means that you're human. And that is a very good thing. It means you recognise the need for change. The need has made itself known. And guess what? When the need arises... so do we.

[This message edited by SerJR at 8:08 PM, April 7th (Tuesday)]

I wish I could claim credit for this masterpiece but I can't. It belongs to very wise member from another website. It should be etched in the minds of every man and woman who has been the victim on infidelity.

Just Let Them Go

The end result?

The end result is to respect yourself in the end,

let go of the people that don't value you or respect you.

That is the end result.

The quickest way to get a cheating spouse back is to let them go with a smile on your face wishing them the best in life and hoping that everything works out in their relationship with their affair partner.

Seriously, the quickest way to get them back.

Nothing else works better or quicker.

Let them go.

Agree with them and their feelings, "you should be with the OM, I hope he makes you happy, good bye"

Wouldn't that be true love?

If you really loved your spouse, and wanted them to have what they really want in life which is the other person they're in love with, wouldn't letting them go be the approach if you really love them?

Why focus on the affair or the drama associated with it?

Just let them go. Give them their freedom.

You can take a good hard look at yourself in the mirror everyday and improve yourself but do it for you, not for someone else, the changes will never stick when it's done for someone else, do it for your benefit and you will probably make those changes last much longer if not indefinitely - because it's for your benefit and you realize the importance and value in that benefit because YOU are involved.

I will never tell someone to change to entice a WAW back when she's been cheating on him. I don't care how bad a marriage, there is never an excuse for cheating. That is a personal decision that someone makes to cheat on their spouse. If a marriage is really bad, leave, get a divorce, speak up to your spouse and tell them flat out "this marriage sucks and if things don't change I'm going to leave you and find someone better" and if things don't improve, leave that person.

But cheating, no excuses.

Think about cheating.

A wayward spouse who cheats on their spouse goes behind their back, secretly, telling lies, feeling guilty, getting angry at their spouse for getting in the way of their fantasies but never owning up to their actions, never admitting what they're doing. If a person who cheats on their spouse felt justified in their actions, why hide and go behind their spouses backs when they start cheating, why lie, why make up excuses about late nights at work and going to a friends place and sleeping over because they drank too much and any other such nonsense?

Deep down, the cheating spouse knows there is something inherently wrong with their actions otherwise they wouldn't lie about their actions and hide what they're doing.

Fighting the affair? For what reason?

To compete with the OM or OW for your spouse?

What message does that communicate to your wayward spouse?

They have lots of value and you have none because now you have to compete with another person for their love? Competing with your wayward spouse's affair partner never works, it just prolongs an ugly drama filled process.

And for your last point,

The easiest way to show you will not tolerate cheating in your relationship is to let that person go. That is the easiest and most effective way to show this.

"Look wife/husband, I won't be in an open relationship with you, I won't give you X number of days, weeks, months to make your mind, if you really feel like you need to sit on the fence on this decision and can't decide between your affair partner and me well I will make the decision for you, you can be with them because I'm no longer an option. I love you and wish you a good life with them and hope it works out for you because it didn't work out for us. Now the best thing we can do for each other is to make this process as graceful and peaceful as possible for us and our children, I'll contact a lawyer/mediator and get started on the process of our legal separation/divorce."

You give them what they want.

You don't fight them on this issue.

You agree with their feelings,

they want to be with the other person, fine they should be with the other person, let them be with the other person.

You will never convince a person to change their feelings with your arguments and logic. You can not find one member on this website in a situation where they are dealing with infidelity where they got their spouse to change their mind about how they feel about their affair partner.

You can't say "don't love them, love me instead",

you can't say "look at me, I'm better in every way compared to your affair partner, pick me instead of them",

you can't say "you took marriage vows, you promised to love me"

I agree, you don't have to make it easy for your wayward spouse to have an affair, but when you let them go, "lovingly detach", you don't have to worry about making it easy for them. It's no longer your concern, they can have you or them but not both and not at the same time and since they've chosen to have an affair, they've made their choice, there is no profit in fighting that decision. Let them go and move on with your life, that is the quickest, easiest way to get them back.

You definitely don't support them financially and enable them, that would be weak, wussy, clingy, insecure behavior - something in you telling you that you need to support them financially while they're having an affair, hoping they'll realize how nice you are and come back to you.

Just let them go, have them move out or you move out and live a good life without them.

"my WW jus asked me when can she come and get her stuff wow cnt believe shutting her phone off and her $$ supply off didn't knock her out of the fog and wake her ass up to wat she is losing."

Hotrod, she's not in a fog. You're the one in a fog.

You wonder if she wants to put an end to the marriage. She ended the marriage a month ago and you haven't noticed yet. You are still in the fog. You think she will see what kind of garbage she hangs around with, then she will wisen up and come back to the good guy you are. Well there is a rule of thumb in chemistry, "like attracts like". She hangs around with these people because she has a lot in common with them. She is a party girl, and when a party girl marries a good guy, it may work for a year or two, but after a while, the party girl misses her party friends and finds her good husband a real bore. Has she ever told you that you are boring?

Giving you back the wedding ring was the clincher. This should have gotten you out of your fog. Chalk your marriage down as a great learning experience. That's all it will be in the end. She has made her move and left you. That was her part in terminating the marriage. Your part is to get out of your FOG and have her served with the divorce papers.

You're a good man, and from one good man to another, start looking for a good girl. There are lots of them around, but they are just harder to find than the party girls because they just don't stand out as much. GOOD LUCK!!!

Thanks serjr I'm sure u have heard this but u r a smart man and thank u for ur awesome insight and advise I agree I made a mistake in giving her the power to file herself once u and bigger explain u make it easier to see that I need to file to set my future in motion one way or another and I cnt Thank yall more for opening my clouded eyes and she is doing exactly wat u r saying she is trying to use my big heart against me cuz she jus messaged me again asking if we can meet up jus the two of us and meet in a public place and talk so now that I cut off all $$ and sense of security she is trying to stay in touch cuz she is scared to lose me or at least that's how I see it anyway maybe I'm wrong but again I responded with R u going to tell the truth about everything and of course no immediate response but ser jr u make me feel like u no me somehow cuz u hit the nail square in the head about being vulnerable cuz broke down today and weep like a girl becuz I hate feeling vulnerable and take it personally when I do like it's a bad thing and many people keep saying women would die to have such an emotional loving man and I'm jus ready to find a woman that deserves that

Thanks marbou88 I am definitely in a fog and I jus hate that I did everything I could and it still wasn't enuff to make it work I jus hate failing and I understand it's not all on me Im jus soo mad I was a terrible judge of character to ever have Givin this woman my entire hear and soul and trust only to get shit on in return but I'm going to stand up and march forward and find a woman that is l000 times better because I deserve one

Hey hotrod4094. You really have some of the SI greats pulling for you and posting here - I'm so glad you found us.

I don't have much to add from the fantastic advice you have gotten except for little things. Don't be too eager to be at the finish line here.. it takes a lot of time to process. What happens with a lot of members is that they start to get down on themselves for not being stronger or "fixed" way too soon. You seem like someone who likes to work hard on problems and to correct them - and this is one of the trickiest things to work through because we have to learn a lot about life and relationships with new eyes.

Be gentle on yourself. Understand that your vulnerability means that you are capable of great love and great trust, and that's actually a good thing. It means you are a person worthy of that same love and trust.

I'm jus ready to find a woman that deserves that

Don't worry about that right now. The person who deserves your energy and attention right now is YOU. You need to treat yourself with that integrity and kindness now, and the rest will follow.

We're here for you.

I am just blown away by all the good advice and how kind and awesome you people have been to a total stranger it has opened my eyes to how many great people there rilly is in this evil and cruel world again I cnt even express my gratitude for every kind word and ever bit of great advice im humbled

As some of you following this thread know, hotrod is my son and I have reached out to my veteran SI friends to help him. I have stayed off this thread for many reasons, one of which is I am very close to this and I worry that watching his pain is clouding my judgement. I want to take away my child's pain which is impossible.

There is one point that he keeps going over and over and is beating himself up with. Let me explain and hopefully you can find the right words I have struggled to find. WW has very little support system. She does not have a strong stable family in her corner, trying to help her and question her decisions. They are enablers and do not have HER best interests in mind. What hotrod is beating himself up over is the fact that walking away from her means abandoning her in a time of great crisis. A time when it appears she is in great need of help. We feel that alcohol and other things are possibly clouding her judgement.

He made vows to stick buy her in time of need and in sickness and health. Right now this is a time of need. How do I explain to him that he isn't being a bad husband and abandoning her?

Hotrod I promise to back off this thread now and let the others give you clarity on this issue. Sorry for going all "mom" on you here. I just love you so damn much.

It's called a sh*t test.

Man/woman finds courage to be strong and stick to their guns.

Move temporarily surprises the partner.

Partner then tests out this new found integrity to see if it's genuine whilst simultaneously trying to reassert their dominance.

Your mistake amid the bravado and bluster was telling her she could file.

She won't. So she puts the ball in your court and waits for your reaction..you're not going to file, you've cut her off, she can get a pre paid phone, and continue her activities.

What else can you do? She called you out.

So you file and make this real. Show your integrity is real and squash that sh*t test.

Your wife is not remorseful. You're trying to win her back and your threat backfired. Even if she does come back it has to be for the right reason..you and not the fear of losing her lifestyle.

File then go dark

Unless or until she gets her head out of her ass, you can't be her support Hotrod. She will see that as weakness and use it against you for her own advantage.

In fact until she gets her head out of her ass, she won't listen to good advice from anyone, she will only listen to what she wants to hear.

YOU ARE NOT A VICTIM. You are an empowered individual who is capable of navigating through the adversity to a healthier future.

Don't be too eager to be at the finish line here

The two above statements are important.

The first one more or less nails what we have been telling you: You have all the power you need.

It might not be the power you WANT, but it’s definitely the power you NEED.

The second one is also important in the context that YOU have the POWER. It’s also within your power to control the speed.

There isn’t any rush to file. Do it at YOUR speed. Do it when YOU are comfortable with it. But always keep up the pressure on her that she needs to move on with or without you. Filing or divorcing isn’t the goal. The goal is getting out of infidelity. It’s like a forked path: Right now you are on the early stretch. At some point you reach the fork where you file (because your WW is still in infidelity) or you work on your marriage (because she commits to it).

It’s OK that she wants to talk. There really isn’t any way forward without talk. But the ONLY thing that you want to listen for are the words that she commits to the marriage and cuts off OM.

Look – I think two things are important right now as far as talking to her is concerned:

She is clear on what you want. It’s obvious you want to reconcile, but it’s also clear you realize it can’t be at any cost. In order to reconcile she needs to commit to the marriage and she needs to end the affair. So you need to make that very clear:

“I am willing to do a lot to save this marriage. I know I can improve and we can make this marriage better. I would be willing to seek help and do what’s required to work on our marriage. BUT I also know that losing you isn’t the worst outcome. Sharing you is infinitely worse. Right now I am at best sharing you while we are separated and you are seeing OM. While that’s going on our marriage is dead and all that’s left is to bury it. If you commit to the marriage then we can start trying to create the marriage we deserve.”

So you go and LISTEN. You make your demand and conditions clear and right now they are simple: Commit to the marriage and join my trip out of infidelity OR remain behind while I leave.

The second point is to enter no argument. She commits or not. That’s it. No negotiations. Therefore no need to argue.

She tells you that you were inconsiderate: “I’m sorry you feel that way. If we were working on the marriage then this is something I would address. But since you are committed to your affair I see no gain for us to open this issue.”

She tells you that you work too much: “I’m sorry you feel that way. If we were working on the marriage then this is something I would address. But since you are committed to your affair I see no gain for us to open this issue.”

She tells you your nasal hair drives her nuts: “I’m sorry you feel that way. If we were working on the marriage then this is something I would address. But since you are committed to your affair I see no gain for us to open this issue.”

She tells you it rains too much: “I’m sorry you feel that way. If we were working on the marriage then this is something I would address. But since you are committed to your affair I see no gain for us to open this issue.”

Get it? Non-confrontational, don’t enter arguments, stick to your demands.

You have some great people helping you on this thread. On a side note to their advice the "when can i get my stuff" could be her attempt at hoovering you. Just be aware that once she is in the house she might throw you scraps (I love you) that will mess with your mind. You've been doing great, stick with it.

WW has very little support system. She does not have a strong stable family in her corner, trying to help her and question her decisions. They are enablers and do not have HER best interests in mind. What hotrod is beating himself up over is the fact that walking away from her means abandoning her in a time of great crisis. A time when it appears she is in great need of help. We feel that alcohol and other things are possibly clouding her judgement. He made vows to stick buy her in time of need and in sickness and health. Right now this is a time of need.

Hotrod, you are not abandoning her. She is the one making these choices. She is the one continuing to make these choices in spite of the consequences. She's holding on to the edge of the cliff and you've reached your hand out to her. If she spits in your eye and lets go, there is nothing you could have done. And jumping off that cliff after her is not going to solve a thing.

You've been supportive for the entirity of the marriage. This "time of crisis" is entirely her doing and you were fully there for her when she made that choice. The most loving thing you can do for your WW is to let her deal with the reality of what she is creating. You do her no favours by shielding her from those consequences. The only way she can grow is for her to step up. So how do you honour your marriage and vows? You stick up for it and ensure that you do not let any toxin fester within it. You can't heal while the toxin is still present. And right now it is your WW's behaviour that is being toxic. So, you set the bar high for her and hold her accountable for her decisions and behaviour. You can't "love her better", you can only set the stage so that she can take the necessary steps toward her healing. And by letting her do her work for herself, you give her her only real chance of doing it. You lead with YOUR integrety, you lead with YOUR values, and you lead with YOUR self respect and respect for your marriage.

Again, you let her know that she is welcome to join you if she is willing do her part. And you let her know that it is her choice and that you can't do her part for her. As Bigger has said, the goal isn't to divorce and it's not even to reconcile. Those are just the paths toward your destination of removing infidelity from your life. And like he said you gotta do this your way and at your speed, but keeping in mind what may be necessary to protect your future. I also agree with meeting her and discussing, but paying attention to the two points he mentioned. Make your boundaries clear, and do not engage and allow her to pull your strings. If you do meet, keep in mind that there exists a pause between what she says and your response - take this time to collect your thoughts and reply rationally instead of just automatically reacting to what she says. What you need in your marriage is simple - it's either 'yes' or 'no'. 'Maybe' and something in between only means that you will be stuck right where you are.

(((((hotrod))))))

Welcome to the group that none of us ever wanted to be part of. But definitely welcome, to a place where you can find tremendous wisdom and support among the pain and confusion.

You have have some great people here sharing what they have learned - I hope that it is helpful and supportive as you make your way through this.

It sounds like you've handled things as well as you could over the last few days - tremendous!

I understand how much of an emotional roller coaster this is... you can know in your head one thing, but your heart takes a long time to come around to that same feeling. Be easy with yourself - know that you are worth taking care of, worth making a priority, worth far more than this. I understand wanting to help her. I felt the same way with my WH at the time. I begged him to see what he was doing and I was sure that he would wake up one day and regret, and see what he was doing, and change. But that didn't happen. And what I realized, with lots of therapy, was that it wasn't my job to fix him. He was who he was, and he had to be the one to want to change..

You will get through this. It may be hard to imagine how you will feel "whole" again, but you will, no matter what happens here, get through it.

You made a very powerful statement, but then handed her the power. YOU ARE NOT A VICTIM. You are an empowered individual who is capable of navigating through the adversity to a healthier future.

Take that statement, read it over and over and commit it to memory...

Hot Rod,

I am so sorry, but I am in the same boat as you. We tried R.. he never admitted the inappropriate relationship.. he waffled and continues to waffle and wanted to "separate"... I told him basically what Bigger wrote.

I am not giving him permission to leave our home, see this whore or others, WHILE married, spending our joint assets.. while I am stuck taking care of the adult responsibilities. That was a no go for me too.. it's not fair.

Let her go. She might come back, she might not. My STBX seems okay with divorce too, but will he a month from now? When he's alone in that apartment away from his kids? When the relationship with the whore falls apart (they always do).. will he crawl back? Maybe.. but if he does, it will likey be way to late.

Decide what you want in a relationship.. really, you are SO young. Is this acceptable to you? If not.. cut her loose.. it will get better and you will survive.

HotRod

You have gotten awesome advice in your thread as well as obvious concern from your father.

KISA

Knight In Shining Armor

Most men want to protect their women. It is natural for us to want to do that for the women we love.

But that is not always the best reaction especially when you are dealing with a woman that walked out on her marriage, has a pretty crappy support (family) system in place and sounds like she is having issues with alcohol.

So go meet with her. But just LISTEN.

Your wife has to want to do the right thing for herself and not just for you and your marriage.

It starts within her. All you can do is show her the path to take. She has to be willing to walk it.

Keep posting.

HM

What hotrod is beating himself up over is the fact that walking away from her means abandoning her in a time of great crisis. A time when it appears she is in great need of help. We feel that alcohol and other things are possibly clouding her judgement.

Yes, I fought this myself. My wife was severely depressed. However, being codependent to her issues helped get us there. Let her own her shit, you own yours. If you need to move away from her to protect yourself, you need too. That is your best way to help her. The only thing that can help at times is hitting rock bottom, that may be what she needs to figure herself out. that isn't abandoning her in time of need, its making her face the consequences of her action in the hopes she figures herself out and protecting yourself from her behavior.

He made vows to stick buy her in time of need and in sickness and health. Right now this is a time of need. How do I explain to him that he isn't being a bad husband and abandoning her?

You don't, You support him. You let him figure out how to navigate through that minefield. you need to not try to control his outcome. His path through this experience is his. I now this must suck for you but you need to watch getting too into sifting through his junk. We all have our own path through. If there is one thing we learned through this its each of us experience the hurdles differently.

Hotrod I promise to back off this thread now and let the others give you clarity on this issue. Sorry for going all "mom" on you here. I just love you so damn much.

Keep loving him and supporting him. But please be careful not to get to close to this fire. Tough I now.

Hot rod, one step at a time. I think Ser and Bigger are really shining a light through. By that I mean what is the next step. and here it is: Declare your value and make it known your not going to live in infidelity.>>

Make your boundaries clear, and do not engage and allow her to pull your strings. If you do meet, keep in mind that there exists a pause between what she says and your response - take this time to collect your thoughts and reply rationally instead of just automatically reacting to what she says. What you need in your marriage is simple - it's either 'yes' or 'no'. 'Maybe' and something in between only means that you will be stuck right where you are.

I wish you well.

I have agreed to meet her friday after I get off work and this is what she sends me

OK. Be honest with me. Are you doing ok? I still don't want us to be bitter towards one another. And the last thing I want is for us to be hurt by one another

Jus keeping everyone updated Thanks for helping me thru this shitty time in my life

[This message edited by hotrod4094 at 1:34 PM, April 8th (Wednesday)]