SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Is this an assumption you are making or trying to put words in my mouth for questioning a person's perspective?

No, it is a serious question to you. At what point do our perceptions become questioned so hard just because we are the wayward? I often see a waywards "narrative" questioned so hard, or they are told that that wasn't what happened in their marriage that they give up. How do we know what happened in their marriage? How do you know that amigone's perception isn't dead on? Does it matter? Or does what matter is the action of what she did with that perception? Should we not be focusing more on the actions of what the wayward has done with these perceptions and feelings? Teach them to have different coping skills and self soothing methods?

Tired girl,

I am trying to offer some input on different coping skills.

Blaming is a coping skill. Most of us do it. We do it to justify our actions. We do it protect ourselves. We do it because it is likely a childhood behavior that we find acceptable.

It builds walls. It builds resentment. It shuts down communication. It's extremely common behavior, but is it healthy?

At what point did I ever use the word blame?

We get the exact same thing on the BS side. "The A had nothing to do with you", "the A was not a malicious attack", "it's only about where the WS state at the time".

It sure felt like a malicious personal attack, but that doesnt make it so. Infidelity, financial infidelity, alcoholism, drug addiction, gambling, hell even domestic abuse (as crazy as that sounds) is not a personal attack.

This whole *discussion* screams of Don Miguel Ruiz' 2nd Agreement. "Don't take anything personally. Nothing others do is because of you. What others do and say is a projection of their own reality, their own dream. When you are immune to the opinions and actions of othrrs, you won't be the victim of needless suffering.

In my opinion, easier said than done, but definately something to strive for.

*edit from arguement to discussion

[This message edited by AFrayedKnot at 10:09 AM, July 10th (Friday)]

I never said you used the word blame. Nor did I imply you were blaming.

What I did was speak about the action of blaming. I focused on the action.

Lonely Lucas, blaming is also not a bad word but it is when used here, often. Blaming is assigning responsibility for a wrong. Recounting mistreatment and cruelty of another is not blaming, though. It's giving witness testimony. That is even allowed in court, you know.

I can be very capable of correctly seeing, feeling, interpreting my husband's actions as well as owning responsibility for my responses to them. The effort some have to slog through in order to post about this and work through this on this site at times is so sad and really is offering no support or advice, other than, "how do you think they feel and are you sure you're correct in your "perception" of events. Yeah, it wasn't nuanced.

I've read your profile walkingoneggshells, and I'm not understanding your posts at all now. You brought someone into your home that was clearly an enemy and had all intentions of leaving. Your affair partner outted both of you to your husband after he had become a friend and you watched then walked away to be with him. Regardless of what you told yourself about your marriage, whether it was fact or fiction, I'd imagine that would be the real focus. So if your perceptions of living with an alcoholic and the shit show that goes with that were very real and valid, how on earth did you feel the solution was to embed an enemy and then leave with the enemy? That is far more than an incorrect perception deal. When he dumped you you stated you realized what you had done. Did you? Or did you realize you were alone and had kind of an "oh shit" moment? Since he was also married how about your "perceptions" of his wife's suffering by your hands and collaboration?

Now, lets look at this another way. Living with an alcoholic is no picnic. It's emotional and physical abandonment along with putting your family (and others) at extreme risk. Not a real vague cloudy nuanced environment. Sucks for all. Massively. So you protect. Yourself, your children, and you leave. Would that be a perception thing? Or would it be a healthy response to a fucked situation.

It seems the reason one's perceptions are questioned are really not because they're not valid, but that there seems to have to be some significant mental gymnastics needed to make staying ok when one falls flat on their face while handling escaping/leaving some pretty real shit dealt to them in some cases.

I'm not interested in self delusions or warped justifications. I want to find and deal with the internal processes that failed in protecting ME. I'm not on a crusade to sacrifice myself for my husband or my marriage. I wasn't brought into this world to make up for someone else's very real deficiencies and lacking just because I fucked up dealing with the above.

Thank you to the owners of this site and the volunteer staff that run this. I am requesting my profile be deleted.

Walkingoneggshells, I understand your husband's response to me on other post now very well as well as his very clear anger. Dear God. If your post to me was that your incorrect perceptions were used to "justify" the actions you recounted you've only just begun. He's very very far from safe.

Amigone, it's unfortunate you feel the need to leave. I wish you peace.

Please keep in mind, I was only trying to point out behaviors that could have possible failed you in the past and could in the future. A question you yourself asked.

Take care.

tired girl,

I will respond to you, as you asked a direct question.

First of all, I had simply asked amigone whether the opposition she described was real or perceived. A question, never once in this entire thread have I stated that her perception or all wayward's perceptions were inaccurate. The point I was attempting to make was to only entertain the possibility that her perception of her husband's behavior might not be entirely accurate. Which, btw, does not negate any aspects that are accurate.

I don't think this is just a wayward problem. Perceptions are universal and without the proper communication, our perceptions can facilitate a lot of resentment. For example, HT's perception of our marriage was that we were solid. Had we been communicating about our perceptions of our marriage we wouldn't be members here, no doubt.

I think understanding our perceptions and how they were formed is vitally important in our healing because without that knowledge we are just really white knuckling whatever action we are changing. As important as the action is, it's also equally important to understand what led up to that action.

My action was having an affair. Since I stopped that action am I ok now? Hardly. I need to figure out why and how I got here. Looking at what my perception was is part of that process. Not the whole of it by any means, but definitely an important piece to that puzzle.

Maybe I am coming at it from such a different place WOES because I was told for so long in my M to HL that my perceptions were wrong, when in fact they were right. Also I have a son with Aspergers, I know exactly what behaviors she is talking about when she starts describing them, I have seen every single one of them. Her perception isn't off, any more than mine was.

Where we were wrong was the action we took based on that.

I know that you feel that changing the perception is where it is at, but I can't change the fact that HL was indeed cheating on me, the way I was perceiving he was, and she can't change her H's behavior due to him being Aspergers. However, our actions can totally change in protecting ourselves so that we don't betray ourselves, or betray our partners.

I have worked on changing some of my perceptions of the world around me. Most of what I have worked on is changing my behavior in how act towards that world.

Amigone,

You are obviously an intelligent woman. I do understand your situation - my son has a high level of asperbergers. Yes. It's hard.

Now go back and read your post on page 2 in which you referenced the marriage box.

You appear very self focused. Full of resentments. Some valid, some not. Only you know. But remember something, despite all your husbands 'failings' he never deliberately screwed you over and didn't betray you.

Read your post again now. I bet he's wondering the same questions but from a very different perspective.

Introspection and being focused on yourself aren't the same thing. Not even in the same ball park.

Two of you went into a marriage making vows. One of you betrayed them. The same one that still seems to be carrying a crapton of grievences around and bitterness.

where is YOUR empathy? I bet his list of grievences is every bit as long as yours.

That's what I see in your posts. You bitter. That bitterness is poison. Its (IMO) part of how you wound up a ww. Your introspection just seems to be more of the same disguised as digging.

Note: 1: edited due to mistake. 2: edited lest others seize on that mistake, which isn't vital to the post's point, and ignore the actual points I do make.

Note: I'm on a phone. If errors occur in spelling, etc because I'm on a phone then I don't need them noted to me. If the post is intelligible - its sufficient.

[This message edited by william at 2:27 AM, July 12th (Sunday)]

Double post

[This message edited by william at 2:22 AM, July 12th (Sunday)]

William,

Her husband never joined SI, disliked Si, refuses to acknowledge that she had any kind of EA, and therefore has never posted on SI. The work she is doing as wayward in this situation, IS purely to fix herself.

I will be honest I have not read every sing post here so some on may have said this or responded to this already. My question is if the feelings you have are your perception of reality and then you get new or clarified information. What if that information doesnt change your perception? An example from my recent life. Ex is giving me the cold shoulder, other then to ask me the time or if it is raining he says nothing to me. He does not say hello to me, he does not say goodbye when he leaves. He is effectively doing a version of the 180 since I told him I am keeping my child. I called him on it because I was tired of bit in my tongue, i'd done it our entire relationship and a lot of our R and I was tired. Now mu perception was he is now turning his back on me because I am keeping the baby and being as cold as possible to distance himself when 3 days ago he was telling me he loved me. So my feelings based on the perception of reality I had was anger, hurt, sadness, pain, and more anger. When I confronted I was told he was not giving me the cold shoulder he was simply angry at his situation and had nothing he wanted or needed to speak to me about so that was all. If I go by his perception of reality he is angry and is dealing with it in a way he felt was safe and healthy. Although my perception of what was going on changed my feelings towards it remained the same.

Hmmm I feel like I am not explain this right. I believe a lot of the feelings and emotions that surround the difference perceptions of our reality we can have can be handled simply by communicating instead of assuming and reacting based off the assumptions of someone else's actions. A lot can be avoided that way.

Also sorry if this was a t/j but the part about feelings and perceptions really got to me.

I have to back up WOE.

The debate isn't about whether your feelings are valid. I agree that you will have feelings based on what you perceive as the reality. The part I can't agree with is that "perception is reality". It may feel real. But it isn't always. Feeling strongly about something doesn't make it more true. I can feel strongly that the sky is purple. I can feel unheard because everyone continues to tell me it's blue. But I just know it's purple. It still doesn't make it purple.

Schizophrenia is only one example of threats perceived by the person that doesn't exist in reality. In their reality, yes. But their reality isn't healthy and isn't real to a majority of the population looking inward from the outside.

I perceived that at the time my wife was not affectionate and loving during the affair. Going back and re-evaluating that time, what I perceived was horribly wrong. My wife wasn't. Sure, maybe due to children she spent less time than normal with me. But, she was still the same loving affectionate person with an added amount of stress. She did even more for me to make me happy. She said she loved me more than the day she married me. I lied to myself to allow me to become more irresponsible because I was running away from being an adult and wanted to go backwards in the relationship and be an immature teenager again. So, honestly I can't and will not let my perception be an excuse to my selfishness and horrible coping skills. What I perceived was wrong regardless of how I felt or what emotions they elicited and the feelings, wants, and desires I had at the time were unhealthy and certainly far from normal. They were basic and immature and extremely destructive.

BTW: I married because I loved my wife and wanted to share it with her. For what I can do for her and for what she can do for me. I was in a very healthy place for 8yrs with her and us.

Then I just began to break down with being a responsible father. Was I unhealthy before? Yes, but that is part of life. We all have a bit of unhealthy in us. If we wait to marry till we are all full of healthy and wisdom, well some of us may never marry or we may be in our 70s having children. (I was 30) We grow and learn. Some of us are better at it and have had different experiences at life that make us more capable of dealing with stressors that come along during marriage. IMO M should be what it is in wedding vows. Some of us will falter. You can't prepare for everything and have a perfectly utopia safe M. Going into it, you never think that half of what we do would ever happen or apply to you. You just have to rebuild and learn and make it better. Focus on why you did it and allowed it and try your best to be better.

Amigone, it sounds like you are making yourself crazy preparing for all the variables and trying to control too much. I see a ton of insight in Williams post. Reread that.

I think for many of us communication is the key. Now, we know what to communicate about. What to ask ourselves and each other in the M. I know I sucked at communication before the A. I just didn't know how. I can't put into words what comes so naturally to my wife. Half the time I didn't even see the problems or issues I had. I do now. I learned. Communicate your perceptions and work in an open environment. I think WOE does this very well in their M and I see that in many of her posts. Unagie hit the nail square on.

sorry duplicate psot

[This message edited by Zugzwang at 1:10 PM, July 14th (Tuesday)]

Amigone

I have also pondered and pored over numerous articles and research regarding infidelity...and marriage. I have come to believe, that the purpose of marriage should be to start or raise a family in a stable family setting. Every other benefit of companionship and commitment, to me, doesn't require a marriage certificate. I don't believe lack of marriage leads to lack of commitment, nor does marriage equate to commitment.

Are most of us asking ourselves this question before we get married, and is this asked enough? No I don't think so, and the reason for that is probably that social norms will not be questioned and researched to the same extent as that which appears to be out of the ordinary. Few question the societal norm in the first place, and whether that norm should or does apply to you. Its like the many women who choose to not have children, it goes against societal norms, and there is now research into why that is. But no one asks, why do we have children - its seems normal and in line with evolution and survival to want children.

Marriage IMO is necessary for society to develop, to provide a level of stability for the next generation, for civilization. Whether marriage should be monogamous, what that marriage should look like however differs widely across countries and depends on your society and culture. For instance, I live in a country where it is not unusual for some men to have many wives. Its culture for some sectors of society here.

I agree, it is something we should understand about ourselves better before entering that contract with someone else, to ensure we are not making promises we cannot keep, to ensure we are contracting with someone who shares our worldview and opinions on what this contract should look like, and if not, to be sure and willing and able to make the sacrifices necessary to honor the ones we love in keeping that contract, rather than only discovering this about ourselves, after we have broken those promises.

I believe anyone trying to understand infidelity is better served by reading something like Mistakes Were Made (But Not by Me) than any infidelity site or book.

The most profound research in human behavior in the last 50 years has the following attributes:

1. It is among the most consistently proven of any behavioral research in history. In fact, it's the finest and most consistent research I've ever read.

2. It is poorly understood by field practitioners, like counselors and "gurus." (One survey suggested that more than 70% of practitioners had never even read any of it)

3. It definitively documents what might be the most impactful tendency we have that we didn't even know was happening.

And the short hand is this: when we act badly towards someone, it has a bigger impact on how we view them than it does how we view ourselves. People who believe they have harmed someone experience significant changes to their memory of events and their memories of their historical emotional response to that person.

The brain is simply wired to believe, "if I hurt you, you must have deserved it." This simple unconscious logic has justified slavery, and death camps, and behavior that seems so cruel as to be inhuman.

And it also impacts the thoughts and justifications of a cheater.

Consider: Almost all of what we've ever known about infidelity trends has come from self-reporting of people AFTER they cheated. After they (our) thoughts were impacted by our terrible actions.

Consider: recently, infidelity sites have begun polling people who haven't yet acted on their urges, whose logic and memories haven't altered to explain away their actions...and the results are strikingly different from what we thought was certain. They go directly against all of the truisms we've relied on, prior to realizing just how destructively something like infidelity acts upon our feelings, memories, and logic.

nd the short hand is this: when we act badly towards someone, it has a bigger impact on how we view them than it does how we view ourselves.

Maybe at first, but once the wayward is remorseful, oh the way I viewed myself was life altering.

tired girl

Where we were wrong was the action we took based on that.

Just curious about that comment. Based on what? How Amigone's husband was treating her based on having Asperger's but they didn't know it and wrongly perceived it as what (he was an asshole? he was abusive?)? How much is his behavior based on his condition and truly out of his control? How much of it is truly intentional? Just questions, I don't know a lot about it. How far you hold someone with that condition accountable for their behaviors? I know that it was already implied that someone suffering from manic depression couldn't be held truly accountable for their actions from the suicide post, so now from what I see a line is drawn and he is held accountable. From what she has stated it was shitty. But, with his condition is he accountable? Was his shitty attitude justified in cheating because of her perception of the M before being diagnosed justified? That is what it seems like she is grasping for to me. Then on the other foot she states, Hell no. But understandable it is understandable why people cheat when treated poorly as opposed to ummm getting out?

You might be able to answer those questions. Sorry she left, but I am still curious about the accountability thing with Aspergers.

I can understand her questioning M though. I remember from an earlier thread where she mentioned marrying her husband for some of those "cold traits" she now seems to have attributed to his "check out" on the marriage. So I can understand why she would question her sound mind when choosing to be with him as a life partner.

This thread is just too interesting. What about perceptions based upon unrealistic expectations? Example. I expected to be treated like a King in my Castle and do nothing but work for the money coming in and nothing else while my wife meets me at the door each day with a smile on her face and outstretched arms like I was the only player in a drama and she was just merely part of the backdrop. If that expectation wasn't met then surely I perceived that my wife didn't love me and value me because she wasn't treating me with utmost affection and desires. Leaving me feeling unloved and dismissed and not valued. Resulting in taking everything my wife still did and finding someone else to have fun with.

Got to change my expectations and perceptions to something healthy and real.

Yeah I don't feel like that anymore, but yep that was it. Perceptions can be wrong.