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I absofuckinglutely hold both of his APs equally responsible. AP1 turned a friendship into a financial bonus for herself. I don't think WH saw her and their 'relationship' for what it was until a few days after DDay. AP2 got off on having As with older married men; she's despicable because she WANTED to be insert herself in someone else's marriage.

No, neither made a vow, but they still broke moral codes willingly. They knew he was married, and they both still made initial overtures to him. It just kills me that he wasn't strong enough to keep his vow, but if they'd been decent people, they wouldn't have encouraged the As, either.

if the WS had proper boundaries no one could make them cheat.

It's not an all or nothing thing. Holding the AP accountable for his/her part in the A is not the same as saying s/he made the WP cheat (unless the AP held a gun to the head of the WP).

AMEN to this topic.

YES, both are responsible IF the AP knows the person they are involved with is married.

My beliefs: My WS is 100% responsible to ME, to HIMSELF and to our RELATIONSHIP when it comes to commitment and vows.

AP is 100% responsible for her 50% in the affair. She knew who I was and backstabbed me over and over again. She never apologized.

Equally responsible for the affair, but the WS is responsible for the betrayal.

IMO here's why I agree to holding equal

if the OW/OM had proper boundaries (presuming they knew the WS was married and effectively they didn't care) than they should have felt disgust - not desire - at the thought of being nothing more than an ego-kibble object

but I get that it's the WS that first betrays oneself and sacrifices integrity on their inner selfish two year old "I want to" alter

This topic was being hotly debated back in 2001 when I came here often during my husband's affair. We have been very successfully reconciled since 2002.

I had and still have very strong feelings on the culpability of the affair partner (If they knew the person was married, of course).

I held the Track Rat in my case just as responsible for the affair as I held my husband. Read that last sentence VERY carefully, because it seems to me the posters who wish to believe only the married partner is responsible gloss right over the part about where I HOLD MY HUSBAND EQUALLY AS RESPONSIBLE.

That does not let the Track Rat off the hook, however. I also have never forgiven her, and my life and our marriage has carried on quite nicely.

Relevant details for me include the fact that my husband was very remorseful for his poor choices. I threw him out of the house the night I caught him at her house, thinking he'd just turn around and go back to her (I was okay with that because I was done). But, he didn't. He went to his mom's house and had to explain to her why he wasn't living at home anymore. The following day, he went to the Track Rat's house and broke things off with her. That was two days before Halloween.

When I showed up at her door after seeing my husband and her sitting on the couch watching TV, she wouldn't answer it because she saw me, too. He answered it and I said he needed to get his ass home so he could explain to his children why he didn't live there anymore. He said after I walked away he turned around to look at her, and she was smirking. Only for a second he said, but right then he knew they was done.

Prior to the front door confrontation, I had consulted two lawyers and knew my rights. Three months after I kicked him out and me barely talking to him, he asked me to go to marriage counseling with him. I refused at first because I was done and as far as I knew he was still with her. I wouldn't talk to him about anything but the kids, the house and money, so I didn't know what their status was, but after really thinking about it, I decided to go. It seemed like a good idea whether we divorced or got back together. Our first counseling appointment was New Year's Eve day (I had started seeing a counselor for divorce counseling three days after I kicked him out of the house). On Valentine's Day he showed up at my office with flowers. One of my co-workers asked if I wanted to call the police because they all knew we were separated. He looked pretty harmless, standing there with a basket of posies in his hands. .

We started dating (without our kids knowledge in case it didn't work out), but I still made him stay out of the house for a year (he stayed with his mom, who was old and needed the help, so that actually worked out good).

I also refused to have sex with him until he got tested for aids and then another six months and got tested again. He agreed to anything I needed to feel comfortable.

Then he broke the news to me that the Track Rat's kid had gotten a job at my husband's place of employment. I about lost my shit on that one because I knew she had put her kid up to it. She was way over involved in his life and though he was an adult, she treated me like her was 12. I told him to get out of my car (we would meet in parking lots away from the house to discuss things so the kid's wouldn't hear), but he explained that he had gone to his boss, confessed to him what was going on and that he had to quit because I would not reconcile with him if the kid was working there (which would give her a excuse to hang around there). The boss took care of it. She had also threatened my kids and myself after my husband broke off with her. She had her children calling my husband. She had no remorse whatsoever.

THAT is the only context in which I know her. I think of her as a shitty woman (for being so willing to do that to another woman), a shitty mother (because my husband had taken her son under his wing and mentored him in their hobby which is how they met), and a shitty human being (for not respecting even the most basic societal rules (don't hurt other people, especially children)! Plus, she was a two time loser, working on her second divorce.

She has never apologized to me, especially for hurting my children, the bitch. So, other people may think of her as wonderful (though I know the other racers froze her out once I started going to the races again), but to me she'll always be a shitty, worthless human being.

Which is what my husband was, also. His name was Rat Bastard, get it? Rat Bastard and Track Rat. Seemed fitting at the time. The difference is he walked through glass and fire to earn his right back into our house and my bed. Even years later, we'll be having fun or laughing at something and he'll look at me and say, "I'm so sorry I did that to you." And, that is why I've forgiven him and not her. She is a non-entity to me unless I'm telling my story. But, I can tell you this, if she was on fire and I had water in my hand, I'd walk on by her, sipping it, and I'm perfectly okay with that.

[This message edited by greenirisheyes at 5:59 PM, July 20th (Monday)]

Once the WS is doing what they are supposed to be doing in protecting themselves and the marriage, there will never be any AP's. It is just a simple fact.

OK, so this AP that I've never met and might never meet is equally responsible for the affair he had with my wife. Now what?

I guess I don't understand the point of all this. Of course everyone who isn't insane is 100% responsible for their own actions, good and bad, but there are two people in an affair and only one of them is married to the BS. Not sure how this mindset is helpful to a BS at all.

From what I've seen there aren't a whole lot of APs who give a shit about a BS, his/her pain, and who the BS assigns responsibility to and what percentage is assigned to each party. But the WS damn well better care if they want to save the marriage. So that's where the focus should be. I was furious at first and wanted to kill the guy who spent 10 months screwing my wife, but that faded fast when I realized what a complete waste of psychic and emotional energy that was. Now I rarely give him a thought. Because my wife can go out tonight and create a new him in our lives without breaking a sweat. Guys like him are a dime a dozen. It's my wife who's unique, because she's the only of those I have.

Hey, knock yourselves out. Focus on who you want, assign blame wherever you want. But IMO your real problem sleeps about 6 inches away from you each night. Anything that takes the focus away from that is a pointless distraction.

I agree 100% & more! AP was my brothers wife, so NO doubt she knew my FWH was married, not to mention SHE was M to MY brother! She also knew the problems we were having at the time and took advantage of that! They were both responsible for their choices and both have to suffer the consequences!

At least my H is remorseful and wishes it would have never happened. She on the other hand tried for 25 YEARS to get it exposed! My greatest revenge against her Is living well & that she DID NOT get her way...she did not get MY HUSBAND! AND he says she never would have...he never had any intentions of leaving me! Most WH don't!

10000% what Sal said.

It is a pointless waste of time.

And, that wench was never going to take up my headspace.

Sal

you are sooo right...

the the AP's BS in my H's case divorced AP midway through the 2 year LTA...My H was panicked for a moment...but continued on with the A for another year plus...at the end of the day if my husbands marriage didn't matter why would AP'S???

Everyone is entitled to their opinion on this subject (oh I know, I am sooooo edgy haha), but mine is pretty simple:

- There are unique features to each situation

- In mine, I ABSOLUTELY hold the AP responsible along with my WS.... Rotten scumbag...

I get the whole 'don't give them headspace' and 'they didn't marry you', but I also ascribe to the theory: Adult actions? Adult consequences. Doesn't mean I ignored my WS. It's not an either/or situation. Knowingly do what he did and I just say 'well he's not really involved, please - remain in your position and enjoy your lie of a reputation.' Not bloody likely.

[This message edited by jobin at 8:08 PM, July 20th (Monday)]

If an AP is duped and doesn't know someone is married, I absolutely hold no anomosity for them. My problem is, both OW knew XWH was married/in a relationship and jumped in feet first. Not only did they know, they arrogantly assumed that he was leaving me for them, AND that they had every right to disrespect me. Granted, XWH is the one who clearly gave them that ammunition; but both of them, to this day, remain wholly unapologetic.

So for that brand of AP, I definitely believe they are equally responsible. It's just not right to KNOW there is another woman and a CHILD on the other end of the affair, and delight in the idea of breaking that up. I honestly don't know how they sleep at night.

Once the WS is doing what they are supposed to be doing in protecting themselves and the marriage, there will never be any AP's. It is just a simple fact.

Sadly, we all know the day will NEVER come when all spouses universally protect themselves and the marriage.

But let's pretend for a moment. Say an adult makes it a habit of ONLY going after married women with children. He knowingly and purposefully targets them. His only intent is sleep with them and at best he is completely indifferent to the fact that if he succeeds, there is a very real chance her family will be destroyed, and lots of people (including the woman he is targetting) will be hurt terribly.

However, despite his best efforts. Despite pursuing, lying, fawning over, complimenting - every trick in the book - he is UNSUCCESFUL. Does that mean he is a good, moral person, worthy of equal respect and kindness of a person who does not engage in this behaviour? Should I treat this person as a citizen of the world on equal moral footing as everyone else? After all - no cheating occurred therefore he has committed no wrong, right?

I feel that even if unsuccessful, a person who attempts to have relations with another person they know to be married/in a committed relationship is STILL a bad person worthy of condemnation and derision...

Even if it's not my marriage they've attacked. Even if not successful. They are a BAD person in my book. And it would be foolhardy to not take at least some small mental note of that fact.

[This message edited by jobin at 8:46 PM, July 20th (Monday)]

Equally responsible for the affair, but the WS is responsible for the betrayal.

So succinct and perfect!

Sall, you're response is exactly the reason I posted it. You sound very judgmental and condescending. That is why I don't appreciate it when people post comments like, "your WH's AP could have been anyone," and "you should be focusing on your WH, not on his AP." Read above for a very short but perfect explanation.

But, hey, if you'd rather rugsweep whatever your WW's AP did, go right ahead. Whatever works for you, buddy.

It is a pointless waste of time.

For you, maybe, and that is fine for you. Just don't tell everyone else that they should feel and do the same.

Flipping it around. My WH's AP was also married. I would completely understand if her BH came looking for my WH with the desire to hurt him. My WH disrespected him and his wife, even if she was behaving disrespectfully herself. My WH should have had the moral fortitude to say, "No. I'm not going to do this because AP is married." That would be the decent thing to do. He didn't and he deserves all the animosity that OBH might throw at him.

Now, that's not to say that I would stand back and watch OBH beat the crap out of my WH. I would most certainly call the police (even though OBH is a police officer). But, I would absolutely understand how he felt toward my WH and why.

Coco, you called out my condescension and then demonstrated that you can play that game as well as anyone.

So you hold the AP equally responsible for the destruction of the sanctity of your marriage. Just as responsible as the man you married. What a unique and powerful individual she is in your life. Personally, I find life difficult enough when only a select few loved ones have the power to tear my heart to shreds.

So how are you holding her responsible and what are her consequences for damaging your marriage, since it will be her husband who holds her accountable for the damage to their marriage, if applicable.

Yes, Sall, I certainly can "play that game." But, it's not a game to me and I'm not playing. I did that not because I think that way, but to try to get you to see how the way you word your comments may sound to others. It's not very nice. I don't like and I don't respond well to it.

Why would you assume that because I hold my WH's AP responsible for her part in their A that means she is somehow consuming my life? Another judgmental assumption. She is not a part of my life. If you had read all of my posts, you would have read that I rarely think of her at all. I won't lie and say I never think of her, but for the most part she is not even on my radar anymore. Like greenirisheyes said, she's only relevant when I am telling my story.

I held her accountable by confronting her and telling exactly what I thought of her and what she had done. I exposed her for the adulterer she is to everyone that I knew that knew her. I posted her name and what she had done on some of those outing cheaters websites. I made sure that she realized that I would continue searching until I found a way to contact her BH and tell him exactly what she had done until I was satisfied that she had suffered enough. I was not going to let her walk away and go on with her happy facade of a life as if she had done nothing.

And, yes, that exposed my WH as well, but I don't care. I'm not ashamed of what they did because I am not responsible for any of it. If there are other consequences to my WH's name being out there as a cheater, those are his to bear. Again, not my responsibility.

Those were my consequences for her. I don't know and I don't care what consequences, if any, her BH has bestowed on her. I don't even know if he knows. I only have her word that she told him, and we all know what a liar she is. Once I knew that I had her running scared and she fessed up to what she had done and apologized, I was done. I forgave her and moved on as I am trying to forgive my WH.

Seriously...now we are doing to each what our WS do. This isn't a game of one up Its ridiculous, petty and ABSURD. No one has the right to devalue another's pain on this journey...NO ONE. If you blame the OP...YOU DAMN WELL SHOULD if that is your journey. If the OP is blameless...THEN THEY ARE DAMN WELL BLAMELESS. How many times have we heard of a WS rewriting marital history to make themselves justified in their behavior? Lets not rewrite eachother's history in order to quantify or justify our own.

No one has the right to devalue another's pain on this journey...NO ONE. If you blame the OP...YOU DAMN WELL SHOULD if that is your journey. If the OP is blameless...THEN THEY ARE DAMN WELL BLAMELESS.

Exactly! I'm not telling anyone that they should blame the AP. I'm saying that people need to stop telling others that they shouldn't blame the AP.

But, the fact remains that, just as the WP wasn't forced to have an A, neither was the AP. The AP is just as responsible for his/her part in the A as the WP is responsible for his/hers.

Again, with the caveat that this assumes the AP new the WP was attached. I think it goes without saying that, if they didn't know, they can't be held responsible.