SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Yes, both the WP and AP are equally responsible for participating in the A and the damage. The WP needed someone like the AP and AP needed someone like the WP to make it happen. And it wasn't just with anybody, it was this person. They're special because they were willing to be that kind of person.

If the AP was your friend, that's its own special poison.

This is very true. If there has been a friendly and/or trusting relationship between the AP and the B, the feelings of anger and betrayal are real. The entire A is a poison that needs focusing on and attention. For some Bs to get rid of the poison, its necessary to deal with those negative and hurtful feelings toward the AP.

I don't think it makes sense to assume that a B is giving too much focus, time, or energy on the AP. It sounds like good advice however it may be asking them to stuff, ignore, or overlook some aspects of the A that are very real and hurtful. All of this takes time and this includes working through the thoughts and feelings about the A, which definitely included the AP.

I wholeheartedly agree with this! The OW knew my husband was married and had children (he was placing ads on various online cheating sites always using a variation of "I'm married, must be discreet") and didn't give a damn about the damage her actions would cause. While I place most of the blame on my WH, I also blame the piece of garbage who continued to pursue my husband after he initially broke it off, wrote on her FB that she was going to come be with him when we moved, and had the audacity to lie about it to me when confronted.

Now I'm waiting for blood work to come back praying I didn't get an STD from said whore. They never used condoms. Talk about selfish.

Yes! Both are responsible. Both were broken, messed up people. Both made awful choices. I have no clue what OW got out of their relationship. She was a beautiful young single woman- why go after a married older broken man? She is responsible for her poor decisions and was ethically irresponsible.

Sure, but one of the things you need to consider is that there will be always more than one AP out there. Had this one not come along, another would have. Being concerned with the AP is not going to fix your root problems. Recommend you fit the AP beneath you and not give them too much time provided the AP is not fishing and attempting to linger.

[This message edited by still-living at 9:52 PM, July 21st (Tuesday)]

I think there are a few reasons why BSs are told to focus on WS vs AP: (let me just say I am not talking about situations where AP's were your BFF or family member-because you then had a relationship with them before and outside of the affair. I also am not referring to AP's who didn't know the WS was married)

1) as stated earlier in this post, some BSs focus all their energy and anger at the AP and view their WS as a victim. That is a very dangerous place to be. It is easy to be angry at these APs that we do not love or care about. We want there to be a reason that our most trusted and loved one would do this to us. It is often easier to see them as a victim...but the truth is they aren't. They may have a myriad of issues that led them to this point that aren't their fault, but the cheating is. The WSs made a hundred little decisions along the way that led them to the moment of broken vows.

2) there is no real way to heal the relationship with an AP. To progress past this whether in R or D. Healing has to occur. At the end of the day they are no one to you and you are no one to them. I'm not saying the AP's shouldn't face consequences, they should. But emotionally they can't give you anything. Your WS can. The WS know every little detail about you. They love and care for you. They are the ones who can aid in your healing.

3) What does holding the AP partially responsible look like? Or mean? Are we talking about consequences? In my mind those are two separate things. But maybe we are looking at it differently. I think it is impossible to reconcile if you ever shift 100% of the blame off our WSs. If we need to lighten their load by making it 50/50 that doesn't equal success for longterm. That means that 50% chance of our WS's being faithful is always up in the air?! Beyond their ultimate control. And that...just isn't factual. I guess I think of it like the saying about marriage it isn't truly 50/50 it's 100/100. That sounds more accurate. WS are 100% responsible for cheating and knowing AP's are 100% responsible for being the cheating partner.

I think when most people on this site are saying not to focus on the AP it isn't to stand in judgement...it's to help protect us, the BSs, who often have a history of not knowing how to protect ourselves. After so much time with gas lighting, rug sweeping and TT...we have been conditioned to often put ourselves in emotional danger. I think SI is just trying to look out for us and help us. The efforts may be misguided but I really do believe there is a good intention behind it. These are just my thoughts on the matter.

I haven't read any of the posts since my last one because I didn't want to perpetuate a fight anymore.

But, in response to the last two. Maybe that's where things get mixed up. And, I think I've said this before.

Acknowledging the responsibility of all parties in any situation does not lessen the responsibility of any one person. Everyone is responsible for their own part in anything they do or are involved in. For example, a bystander who does nothing as another person is raped is probably not a rapist (depending on how actively s/he watched). However, that person can be held criminally responsible for depraved indifference for doing nothing as another was harmed.

Just because there could be more APs in the future or there might be more than one AP from the past does not negate the responsibility of any one of those APs.

And, none of this means that the WP isn't being held responsible. Yes, focusing on the WP if one wants to R is a must. Not stalking the AP is probably a good idea. However, confronting all parties can be cathartic and sometimes is necessary.

I am an intelligent, capable person. I know the difference between holding all parties accountable and focusing on one to the exclusion of another. I know where my attentions will serve me best at any given time, and how. I am not a nutcase (contrary to what my name may imply ).

Well stated Briarrose.

But I want to be sure I understand your opinion on this - are you saying that you view any hatred/action/outing/attention of the AP as a mistake - that it should all be focussed on the WS because they are the person you are in the relationship with?

Jobin, to answer your direct question to me - no, those intense feelings against the AP are pretty normal early on. And I support outing the WS to his or her BS because it's the right thing to do, period.

Those early intense feelings aside, it didn't take me long to realize that the AP wasn't my problem and not someone I should be focused on. Because it makes no sense to focus on someone who you don't even know (in my case) and with whom you have no relationship.

Sure, the AP may be a monster in our eyes, but a monster solely of our spouse's creation. The focus should be on Dr. Frankenstein, who retains the ability to hurt us further by creating more monsters. Anything that distracts from your real problem - your spouse - is a form of rugsweeping to me. The more the AP is demonized, the easier it is to see the WS as somehow less culpable, a dupe, or even a beguiled victim. I prefer to deal with reality and believe that it is the only genuine path towards healing.

I realize that the above is seriously more complicated when you have a Double Betrayal situation. This shit is tough enough when only one person you love stabs you in the back.

I am not sure it "could have been anyone" for my H. AP was a "friend" of ours who knew lots of stuff about him (including his weaknesses) simply because I had confided in her.

She then used her proximity to him and our family, and the fact that he trusted her, to pursue him. It was pretty slick. I don't know if it was planned, or just instinct.

My H had good boundaries at work. He traveled internationally and never gave a moments thought to a tryst that surely would have gone undetected. He described the idea of an affair to me as "unthinkable" before the affair - and he meant it.

Part of the reason he let his guard down is he thought she was trustworthy - that it was safe. Like, with friends. Now -- she may have felt the same way -- but still, I don't buy that a wayward is always gonna cheat. Sometimes there is a perfect storm and the wrong person at the wrong time. Is she more to blame? No. But how could I say she was less to blame when she knew me and betrayed me too?

thanks Sal, I understand your position now I think.

Doesn't sound off the mark to me to be completely honest. I say that NOT trying to take sides and acknowledging (as I have said several times) that each situation - though they often sound very similar - has it's own unique and horrible features...

Feel like I should add though - while I agree with the logic of your position (mostly), in all honesty I have come to accept that emotionally I will NEVER forgive the AP in my case and have unresolved feelings of a need to impose consequences on him...

As the website says "life is short, have an affair" ....partner castrated

[This message edited by jobin at 6:01 PM, July 22nd (Wednesday)]

I want the AP to feel some consequences. I posted some time ago about writing a letter and was mostly advised against it, but I'm going to send it. I want her to know my opinion of what she did, that I hold her partly accountable for the destruction of my relationship although the main responsibility lies with WS, and that I feel no respect at all for her. I want her to feel shame and never to do what she did to anyone else. To be aware, if that is possible with her.

WS must fully account for his responsibility too. He is the one who initiated all of it. But she collaborated, thoughtlessly, with no empathy or imagination towards me. Her responsibility is more abstract, towards another human being she made no promises too, but she needs to know the potential for hurt in such thoughtless wrecking. I want her to know. I don't see why I'm the only one who should suffer consequences from their disgusting, stupid behaviour. I dream her clothes are in my room and she has shat on them and I have to clean them. In some sense the AP leaves their baggage and unresolved issues in our relationships. It is not a clean deal where you can clearly outline each person's responsibility but I do want to acknowledge that she is partly to blame.

I met people while I was contemplating having a revenge affair who were decent and told me to sort out my relationship or what I wanted before throwing myself into something that would just confuse me even more. And there we have it. I've done the same in the past with other people. That's what you do if you have any sense of wanting to build, to relate and to be decent.

Yes I agree with OP and Linda McD. On this one.

The OW is just like an accessory and co-conspirator in a crime. Many OWs also prolong the crime because they were looking for a financial upgrade when the WH was looking for casual sex. They fake pregnancies., entrap with pregnancy and use emotional blackmail tactics. Many APs are predator.

I also believe that WS who continue to protect or idealize their APs after the crime is exposed do so in an effort to not face themselves and the horrible things theyve done to their spouses and children. So it is very important for healing and recovery for the AP to be seen as the lowlifes and predators they are. It's perfectly normal and justified for BS's to direct some big anger in AP's direction. I personally don't like someone trying to steal my life and my husband and I take that as a very personal attack against me.

This anger and rage and hatred I felt and still feel for MOW has nothing to do with my fWH. MOW made this personal between us.

The feelings I have for fWH are separate and not diminished or affected by this in one bit.

[This message edited by whattheh at 1:42 PM, July 26th (Sunday)]

Agree 100% that there is shared (though maybe not equal) responsibility, and that we as BS have justification to hate the AP. Especially true when AP is someone that the BS knew prior to the A. In my case, that person wasn't a friend, but rather a friend of a friend, so I don't feel betrayed in that sense, but I do feel unquestionably justified in my hatred. I imagine that people who had a more meaningful relationship with the AP would have even more rage and justification.

And, none of this means that the WP isn't being held responsible. Yes, focusing on the WP if one wants to R is a must. Not stalking the AP is probably a good idea. However, confronting all parties can be cathartic and sometimes is necessary.

Well said. There's plenty of blame to go around. Just because I want to smash in the AP's head doesn't mean that I'm not holding WW accountable. WW made the CHOICE to do this to herself, to me. I don't know if I can ever forgive her for that. She was the one who was supposed to care about me, was supposed to be a faithful partner.

AP didn't give two shits about me (though he pretended to on several occasions) or my relationship with WW, and I likewise didn't give a shit about him. That doesn't make what he did any better, and there are no excuses. He's a terrible, terrible person. He hurt OBS just as WW hurt me. He's disingenuous, manipulative, and pathetic. A world-class loser. And he deserves punishment for his actions. But WW hurt *me* more.

That said, I also still care about WW, and I could care less if AP died tomorrow.

Actually, scratch that. I hope AP dies tomorrow. I really do.

[This message edited by memday at 3:22 PM, July 26th (Sunday)]

My AP's are victims too in my case, lied to, told he was divorced, I ran off with a man..lol. What I do know is that they were sluts as far as I see it, I mean come on..you never see the guy at night, no dinner in a restaurant or even movie...never go to his house AND give him blowjobs and sex!

Give me a break...their at fault for being easy and stupid but in my case not responsible for equal culpability in the sad state of my marriage now.

I don't recall ever reading here that the AP was not responsible for half the affair nor that the AP did not set out to destroy your M. I don't know where you got that from. However, your WS is the one who you need to focus on because, unless your WS was completely addled and mentally incompetent, he or she SHOULD HAVE SAID NO.

As a member of polite society, the AP does owe you and anyone else a modicum of decency, but the person with whom you are in the relationship made a promise of some sort to you and will betray you again if you let him or her off the hook, even partially, by focusing on the AP.

Yes..they are BOTH responsible for the affair..they met on Ashley Madison....you know...'Life's short.be selfish and hurt other people' !!!!! Should be their new cheating slogan....

Sure, but one of the things you need to consider is that there will be always more than one AP out there. Had this one not come along, another would have.

I don't think this is always necessarily true. It is certainly true for those WPs who are serial cheaters and/or are trolling for an AP on websites or bars or wherever. It is not true for everyone who cheats. If you had said, there could always be more than one AP, or another could have come along, that I would agree with, but not would. Do you think everyone who has cheated has more than one AP? That's what you're saying here.

The assumption that those of us who hold the AP responsible for his/her actions haven't considered this is ridiculous.

I do believe that my WH was not looking for an A. If this woman had not pursued my WH the way she did, he would not have had an A with her. Is it possible that another woman like her could have come along and the same thing had happened? Absolutely! I never denied that. But, again, that doesn't mean it could have been anyone or that another AP is right around the corner. There were plenty of other women at the gym, at his work, and everywhere else he had ever been. There was at least one other woman at the gym who was screwing a bunch of men there. She flirted heavily with my WH. She did it in front of me until she realized I was his wife. He didn't fall into bed with her or anyone else.

As just about everyone on here says, it takes a certain kind of broken person to want to get involved with an otherwise attached and committed person, to have an A.

I think it's an important part of healing - yourself, I'm not even talking about the M - to realize that when your spouse betrays and cheats on you, it could have been with anyone. It wasn't because the AP was exceptional, beautiful, seductive, a predator, whatever. The cheating happened because the WS had something broken in them, they aren't a safe partner.

I get this, but I do believe that in my case, it really could not have been anyone. At one point, the point at which I recognized that had it not been her, it would not have happened at all, that was a VERY scary revelation. Hpwever, now that I truly get the dynamic at play, that does not "freak me out" anymore.

The AP in our case was my husband's ex who befriended me as a young adolescent once she found out that I had a crush on my now husband. It really was a case of befriending the enemy. We were friends for 4 years of my adolescence. Then I had gotten a steady boyfriend and she continued to chase my husband after they dated but he had broken up with her. He finally gave up leaving every place she showed up and, feeling defeated he tolerated her presence at the places he frequented, and lived with her infiltration if his friend circle. At that point, she no longer had a need for a sidekick or to keep me close in her sights and she dropped our friendship..

Fast forward to our marriage. His communication and coping skills were pretty non-existent and we grew distant. He had an overwhelming feeling that he could not be a good husband to me and make me happy; he felt defeated, like a failure. He did NOT however agreed to get help together in order to learn how to fight through disagreements or communicate to a point where we could come to an understanding. He just kept going, either avoiding the conflict altogether or lashing out in oder to deflect and as a result nothing was ever resolved, causing him to feel worse and worse about himself and us. He wanted a happy life with me and our family but felt incapable of making that happen. She knew he was married with children, and knew he was married to me. She contacted him each time knowing that, and her intent was clear. Rather than get help to work on our issues with me so that he could feel better as a partner about how well we could work together, he escaped with a woman for whom he knew he needed to do nothing and she would tell him he hung the moon. Now THAT is all on him.

But I am sorry, what she did was pursue with deliberate action and with the knowledge hat she was affecting others, including innocent children (and she is a mother) in fact offering that she has enough love for him AND his children. Are you kidding me???? Plenty of responsibility and blame there. Sorry, but there is nothing anyone can say to change that perspective for me.... She is equally responsible for what happened to my marriage, but I have her number now and a healthier, wiser and happier husband. Let her NEVER give up and him and waster her life away. there was a time during this process where I felt sorry for her, now when I am confronted with the signs that she is still waiting for him, I think, she has control over her life and can change the trajectory of her life any day of the week. This is a choice, just like it was to pursue her ex who just happens to be married to her former friend.

Rather than get help to work on our issues with me so that he could feel better as a partner about how well we could work together, he escaped with a woman for whom he knew he needed to do nothing and she would tell him he hung the moon. Now THAT is all on him.

The cheating happened because the WS had something broken in them, they aren't a safe partner.

This^^. Absolutely, this behavior is all on the WP, just like mine. I don't think anyone who holds the AP responsible for his/her part in the A, doesn't understand this. But, it does not negate with his AP did.

realize that when your spouse betrays and cheats on you, it could have been with anyone. It wasn't because the AP was exceptional, beautiful, seductive, a predator, whatever.

I will continue to take exception to this. My WH may have continued to not deal with his issues with himself and our M, but he would not have cheated if it weren't for the manipulative predator that was his AP. That does not make her exceptional or beautiful. That makes her sick.

Putting responsibility on the AP when it fits is not to say that that person was anything special. There are people in this world who are that manipulative and seductive. They are called sociopaths. Some WPs are sociopaths. Some APs are. Anyone can be susceptible to them.

I think it is important for R and the healing of the M for WPs who were so weak and broken that they fell for that to acknowledge it. If they don't acknowledge that, they cannot ever completely heal or R.

This has been a very interesting thread to me. I have to agree with those of you who say if it hadn't been the AP it wouldn't necessarily have happened at all. He's never cheated before, after all, and I would bet my life on that fact. Last year was a perfect storm of mid-life crisis, death of his brother, frustration with job and our lives running on parallel lines. We would have weathered it out, started talking and strengthened the walls of our marriage. But she, his old friend from grade school, made the first move, sitting on the beach, talking about life and leaned over and kissed him. He said that and that is one of the things I believe he was completely honest about. (Also because it fits his pattern when he was dating me!) Did he think it could happen? I'd say yes - he was already hiding the fact that he was talking and texting regularly and I did NOT know they were meeting up for dinner. But I don't think he would have made that first move - he just didn't say no - and the responsibility and consequences for that are completely on him. But she KNEW he was married, and he told her he loved me and wasn't going to leave me. (Why he thinks that lessens the betrayal is another subject completely!) What kind of woman DOES that? So sometimes I feel sorry for her because maybe she did love him, but most of me thinks the b**ch deserves every bit of pain she feels.

In my 50s, I've never seen any relationship that is "equal," whether it be marriage, friends, family. There are people who instigate, lead, follow, go along, go enthusiastically, go hesitantly.

They have some responsible, how much each portion I doubt I could know even if I cared.