SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Wallup,

If you're not going to have consequences of the poly then don't even bother doing it.

You *have* to have a game plan going in, or else you're going to find this nice quasi rational stage that you're in all of a sudden become 13 Year Old Female Emotion Time Stage again.

You're looking at using a poly for some sort of closure but without a finality around it you'll just create a larger maelstrom. Now is the time to plan where the next chess piece goes.

I mean, are you going to let her lie to you forever. She lied to you for months about having a boyfriend, she lied about calling him the second she was out of sight and now you're saying there are still no consequences outside of having to walk around with crocodile tears for another six weeks? I'm not trying to goad you into anything, I'm genuinely wondering what your end game is with this particular portion of the process.

(and to the 21 minute NC call, I meant the one at the sister's house, right? That's the one that I meant. I think you are very wise to poly a 21 minute call, needless to say)

Eric - I know. I know. I know. I don't know (see what I did there?) what else to say. I need to think it through and communicate those consequences before Tuesday. I just don't know what they are. It also depends on which question. Should the consequence be divorce regardless? I don't think it should be that automatic. My hesitation is simply being able to, or willing to, follow up on the consequence, otherwise it's just an empty threat.

No - the call at the sister's house was like just a few minutes. I'm comfortable with that as she came clean on how that went down. The 21 minute call was right after I confronted her at my house. This was the supposed "I want to work on my marriage, but I'll always remember you" call.

@Walloped - didn't her "your not being fair to me" remark get you even a little angry? I'm trying to understand you and what motivates you. When I read that remark she made I read it several times - she is awfully impatient for a woman who just sent 3 people she supposedly loves into therapy and torched an otherwise happy family. After she spoke to you that night I don't know how you were able to focus on the Giants game and feel "content" at all. Is she feeling a sense of her power returning?

Also without consequences - how exactly do you intend to set boundaries and keep her honest?

Walloped, do you feel somewhat rushed by your IC? By your wife? Cause I feel it from reading your posts.

There's no doubt that there's an urgency to know as much about her affair as possible. This gives you a solid base from which to make your decisions.

But, it's like you've just been in a terrible accident, both legs with compoud fractures, needed surgery. You're getting the casts off tomorrow and everyone wants you to be walking without crutches on Monday!

WTF!

Shouldn't you have at least as long as the duration of her affair to get your sea legs back?

Shouldn't you have at least as long as the duration of her affair to get your sea legs back?

fWW agreed to one year for me to recover for every month of her affair. With our MC's approval.

[This message edited by setecastronomy at 4:21 PM, September 25th (Friday)]

No Valentinessucks – we only want him to wiggle his toes. Sort of to discover if his spine is broken too. As is we fear Mr. W is lying in his hospital bed terrified of wiggling his toes because that just might confirm his fear that he’s worse off than he thinks.

Setecastronomy – your key is with MC approval. So I guess you were active in MC for that year… Mr. W isn’t.

Oh, don't mistake that agreement for complacency. It was that for the equivalent periods of time, she wasn't allowed to say "Why aren't you over this yet."

Our MC lasted barely six months. We've been doing pretty well since then, as long as she stays on her ADs. (Clinical depression and sudden weight loss are a bad combo.)

@Valentinessucks you are correct - Walloped wife is attempting to rush this and seem impatient. I wonder where she got the guts to question Walloped's fairness..because that takes a total lack of awareness to phrase it like that.

Walloped.

IMHO the poly has little purpose without a reason/goal and consequences.

Way too often we have posters here whose spouse fails a poly only for the situation to remain unchanged.

I have a feeling that the main worry you have regarding a possible fail in the test is a renewed and deeper lack of trust. She fails and you don’t have any reason to believe anything she has told you. We can just imagine the impact that would have on possible r.

Personally I don’t like ultimatums one isn’t ready to keep. If you aren’t ready to make passing the poly a requirement for further r… then try using a more open “ultimatum”:

- Make the importance of openness and honesty clear to her

- Make it clear that NOTHING she tells you now can be as damaging as a truth that might be pulled out as a consequence of a failed poly

- Make it clear that a failed poly due to a lie or a hidden truth will seriously dampen any belief or hope you might have for reconciliation – a lie will set you further back and is more likely to make you lose all hope and will to reconcile A LOT MORE than a big truth told now.

Wall and really anyone.................

Are there punishments for ones who cheat? If so, what are they?

Can't beat them up or send them to their room without dinner or video games.

I mean the cheaters do what they do and they hurt their partner and family. The partner and family has to do everything and all the emotions connected.

What does the cheater have to do? How do the get punished so maybe they learn what they have done?

The cheater does all of this mess and everyone else has to clean it up.

These answers from Wall/All might help Wall.

MWNN - No. It didn't get me mad. This is where the written word and trying to be succinct can alter the perception of what was said.

It wasn't a whine "it's not fair!" kind of thing. In full, it was that I expressed to her what I want to do and then proceeded not to do anything for 2 weeks. She'll wait as long as I need her to. She made that clear. But I said I wanted to try and move forward but was avoiding dealing with it instead. And I wouldn't let her help me either. So given what I said I wanted to do, I wasn't giving it a fair chance and wasn't being fair to our marriage. If I said I need time to figure what I want - leave me alone for 3 months, she'd tell me (and has) that she doesn't think it's healthy, but if that's what I need she's happy to wait until I feel I'm ready to move to the next step.

So no. It didn't bother me at all. Context can get lost here. And no, she's not impatient. She's willing to wait for her entire life if need be.

Valentine - No. Not rushed. I'm not diving into R. My IC's point is that I am currently doing nothing. He said do something. Anything. But don't just do nothing. There's no healing or moving in any direction by standing still. No commitment of how much to move nor how fast. Just move a little.

Bigger's analogy is a good one that expresses it well.

Bigger - you are right about the poly. My goal is concerns about trust and honesty. I'm thinking it through. We're going out tonight for an hour. Neutral ground. We also committed to spend a small amount of time tomorrow discussing the affair. I'll bring this up then.

@Walloped thanks for clearing that up - what you just wrote put the exchange in a totally different light.

I believe it would be a mistake to try to set out consequences in concrete in advance. And by that I mean consequences like D or S. Those could be appropriate consequences for something major, like learning there had also been another A.

But there are so many ways that questions can be answered that might be a little off of what you hope to hear but that aren't really indications that remorse isn't real or dedication to you is false.

Biggers approach is best. She has to know that 100% truth is mandatory and that lying will have consequences. But save the decision about what the consequences are until you review and evaluate whether something is really a lie or semantics or misunderstanding of question or some other blip.

I question people for a living and I have found that no matter how carefully you craft questions, sometimes a question is such that it is misinterpreted or just plain sufficiently unclear that the answer you get isn't within an expected range of answers even though the witness is being truthful. And frankly, the first 3 of your questions look somewhat broad and imprecise. For instance:

(1). All questions means what. All questions over the last several weeks? Including the ones she lied on and then later admitted lying?

(2) other than what you already know. Does she know everything you already know? Better to ask: since DDay has there been any contact with POS other than --- and then list each one you know of.

(3). What part(s) of conversation are you asking about? Perhaps ask in that conversation was there any discussion or comment at all of leaving me or divorcing me. A simple yes or no

(4). This is a clear cut yes or no. Good question, well phrased

This is longer than I intended so sorry for that. I just want the poly to be worth the effort for you and for you to not lock yourself into a set "consequences" position until you have heard the questions and answers and the poly results.

I am hoping it goes well.

Walloped - so sorry for the museum comment. I had no idea it was a trigger for you. Next time I need to read through the entire thread before posting!

What I believe you're seeing, and you might be recognizing this, is what I believe to be the problem with this site (and, Lord knows, it is a GREAT site!!). But what happens is that posters pick up on tiny things, often taken out of context, and attempt to analyze them to the nth degree. The amateur psychiatry comes out in full force.

For example, who cares if the conversation was 21 minutes with the OM??? First off, that's what people do when they're in an affair and it comes to an abrupt end - especially for the woman who may well have developed an emotional tie. 21 minutes really isn't that long. Would you expect for your wife, immediately after the affair was discovered, to simply call the OM and say, "We're done, F-U???" The truth is, that RARELY happens. The emotional attachment that had formed needs to be closed. I know it sucks from our point of view, but looking back more objectively you start to see, yes - I get it.

You know you're healing when you start to look at the affair more objectively. When you start to realize that it doesn't matter that she had sex here, there, or anywhere. THAT is what people in affairs do. You know what? If I was in an affair I'd probably screw the OW upside down and sideways, too. Affairs are sleezy that way - two people just getting what they COULD get at home if they had proper communication skills. But they don't.

And guess what?? Your wife recognizes this - and is willing to work on it. Good for her.

In the end, what you want is as much truth from your wife as you need to heal. You need to see commitment from her that she's in on the marriage and will try her best. That you guys can both see a future together and are willing to work.

As per tomuchdrama's question:

How do the get punished so maybe they learn what they have done?

What people learn when they reconcile is that the "punishment" is what the WS has done. It is the shame, the guilt, the knowledge that they have torn apart their family. Knowing that they broke a fundamental vow to the person they love. It's coming to terms with who they were. The punishment is not what you do to THEM, but their living with what they've done to themselves.

I'll tell you this. I know how bad I hurt following discovery - and I sometimes still do. But I wouldn't trade my pain for that which my wife has to live with in a million years.

Wall and really anyone.................

Are there punishments for ones who cheat? If so, what are they?

Can't beat them up or send them to their room without dinner or video games.

I mean the cheaters do what they do and they hurt their partner and family. The partner and family has to do everything and all the emotions connected.

What does the cheater have to do? How do the get punished so maybe they learn what they have done?

The cheater does all of this mess and everyone else has to clean it up.

These answers from Wall/All might help Wall.

If a BH has this point of view - that the WW get's away scott-free - then true reconciliation will never occur. The idea that she hasn't paid a real consequence for perpetrating the worst betrayal possible is something every BH wrestles with. For me there is nothing that can "even the scale". I think that many, many WW's are not sorry for cheating but don't want to blow up their marriage. They will do and say whatever their BH wants them to and will likely will never cheat again. They had their romantic fling and will cling to those happy memories forever.

I believe that men who are able to truly forgive their wives and reconcile can let go of the retribution that they are entitled to. They accept that life isn't fair. Once past this major hurdle they have a much better chance to find forgiveness.

[This message edited by theDrifter at 5:41 PM, September 25th (Friday)]

Drifter…

If the WS gets away Scott free then there is no reconciliation.

Then that’s either divorce or the limbo of untreated infidelity.

However… whatever “punishment” the WS does isn’t decided or dished out by the BS. It’s self-inflicted.

A WS that really commits to R will realize the true extend of the mistrust and the pain caused. That WS will do everything he/she can do to make it up. There will be hours or days of remorse, regret and thoughts about why they did what they did. The punishment a WS inflicts on himself is immense and even everlasting.

If you doubt my words then look into the wayward forum and read the threads there about punishing themselves. I think it has two offshoot thread because the issue is so complex for the wayward. It was an eye opener for me seeing good people that might have cheated 10-20 years ago wonder if they deserve to forgive themselves…

(Please – look but don’t post. You have a long way IMHO to “understand” infidelity. Not that I do but that’s why I very seldom post in the wayward forum…)

Walloped,

A word of caution on the poly, from my experience only;

She may fail.....

Not because i think she is a liar, unremorseful etc

But just this, bluntly;

WSs are fucked up people, fucked up people don't get un-fucked overnight, maybe not even over a few months.

We are 22 months from DDay, I fully expect if my WW took a poly today she would fail. Her issues are that significant and that deep-rooted, its going to be another 6-12 months before she would be "fixed" enough.....

Shes working hard though, been through a lot of pain and has a hell of a lot more to go.

Everybody is different, and have their own hurdles to overcome. For my WW they wont be overcome today, and not tomorrow, but one day....

Oh and the mind movies, panic attacks, heartbreak when having sex? Complete and utter nightmare. Had one this afternoon, it broke her heart, but she helped me through it.

Best wishes

W,

I truly understand you when you express concern over poly consequences.

It's put up or shut up time. As you'll read here, poly tests are not a precise science, but parking lot confessions are.

You need to convey, and follow through, with consequences before and after. This is a horrible position to put you in, but I honestly believe you need to hold the line in order to walk away with a feeling in your gut that you have atleast a semblance of the truth.

If you walk away with something other than that then you will have taken a step backwards. Not impressing consequences will make that happen to you.

And if a consequence results in divorce, well, then that is frankly not of your doing. It's showtime for her...not you. (I appreciate how easy it is to say that from my vantage)

That's just it, Walloped, I don't get the impression you are stuck. Or, that you are doing nothing. You are in the assessment stage, are you not?

That requires some standing back and watching, while collecting the information you need to make a decision.

For sure, the baby steps: mini dates, small displays of physical affection, may be a good idea, and part of the assessment stage.

The ultimate question is this: if everything from this point forward aligned to be the "best case scenario" from a BS perspective (full truth, NC, extreme remorse, etc), can you handle what she's done? Can you be her husband, give yourself fully to the marriage?