SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

theDrifter - You've made your perspective known. If you cannot support Walloped, please step away from the thread.

Everyone else - let's get the focus back on supporting Walloped.

I am a BH and understand that after 60 days a man is still desperately trying to "get things back to normal" and will lie to himself about how he feels. The temptation to compartmentalize her cheating and convince yourself that "time heals all wounds" is overwhelming. To support a BH in the wake of d-day doesn't mean telling him his decisions are solid and that his plans and outlook are perfect. If you are saying that looking at the other sign of the coin is forbidden on this forum then - fine - I'll go away.

[This message edited by theDrifter at 2:52 PM, September 24th (Thursday)]

theDrifter - First, I just want to let you know that I have no problem with your posts. I may not agree with them, but I'm okay with them.

And I do agree that I don't want people to simply tell me everything I'm doing is fine - people here were honest enough with me and upfront about the things I was doing that was wrong and helped me get onto a track that enabled me to deal with my mess. I found those 2x4's hard to take, but very helpful.

In all cases, I believe the goal of folks posting on threads in JFO should be to help the BS get themselves out of infidelity (as Bigger would say) and determine a path forward. Meaning, help them deal with their situation with their spouse, find out additional info, get into IC, focus on taking care of themselves etc. Basically, provide advice and direction. Once the BS has made a decision to either D or R, then support it if you agree, or point out areas of concern, food for thought, potential pitfalls, etc., if you don't.

I look forward to everyone's continued advice and support, whether you agree with me or not, as I'll be the first to admit that left to my own devices, I would have been navigating blind. You've all helped me tremendously, regardless of how you personally feel toward me or my wife and I thank you for it.

[This message edited by Walloped at 3:17 PM, September 24th (Thursday)]

(I'm not a BS, WS, or OP, just a BC and mods corrected me for posting. Sorry!)

[This message edited by JustLearning at 4:42 PM, September 27th (Sunday)]

Walloped, I personally think you're handling this situation as well as, or better than, anyone I've witnessed. In fact, you're handling it so well that I honestly first thought you might be a troll. You are a helluva lot more evolved than me. Kudos to you.

I think it's important to remember that all of us here have our own experiences, worldviews, and biases. That clearly shows up in how we respond to one another's posts. A wise man (person?) listens to all perspectives and tries to see the situation from that person's perspective, glean any relevant information from going through that process, and then apply that model to their situation to see if it's relevant. There's the whole spectrum of folks here, all the way from the divorce right away to the forgive anything because nobody's perfect. I would recommend running your data through multiple models.

Keep on keeping on.

JustLearning,

There is another option, which frankly is my largest concern here. I think there is a more-than-decent chance that Wallup will never be able to reconcile this but that being stubborn, refusing to quit, intertia, family pressure, codependent behavior or whatever will not let him confront the problem head-on.

Basically my least optimal outcome is Wallup waking up five years from now still feeling like a victim . As one of his loser anonymous internet friends that's what worries me the most based on my read of what he's like and the situation as a whole.

I could be wrong. The reason I speak up is that hopefully by providing full disclosure of what I'm feeling that Wallup will better be able to digest what I say, and put it into its proper perspective.

So, we're left with pure conjecture (on ALL of our parts) about Walloped's WW and what's going on in her head and character. But, to me, rooting for non-reconciliation is tantamount to saying, "I hope that either WW never repents or BH is never able to live with them even if they do." That's what I hear.

Yes, I see that what I said appears to be a contradiction. What I am trying to say is that I understand that many men choose to reconcile and, to some degree, they are successful. Maybe they initially stay to keep their family together, fear of abandonment, or they love their wife enough to give her another chance on blind faith alone. I think all of these men believe that they will be able to get past her cheating, forgive her, and find peace of mind. No one should ever say these men are wrong.

Other men are devastated and turn their back on their wife and their marriage on d-day. They know it's going to be tough on the children but they believe they will be able to work that out. They just cannot accept what she did and she will be forever tainted. No one should ever say these men are wrong.

The fact is that, over time, people change. They gain experience and maturity and that changes their perspective. Many BH's who reconciled a few years ago now question if they did the right thing for themselves. Old wounds begin to bleed again and the entire episode of cheating can start all over in their hearts and minds. He now wonders if he was sacrificing his life for the perceived happiness of others. Now he's prepared to re-examine everything on a journey for true peace of mind. These things happen - ask any counselor.

Of course, many of the men who stormed out and divorced the cheater question whether they really did the right thing. They wonder if they were as selfish as she was by allowing pride and shame to blind them to the idea that there were other choices. Maybe they would have ended up divorced anyway but they'll never know.

These are typical outcomes from infidelity and the whole thing is very complicated. I am an extremely pragmatic person and am very careful to look at all sides of an issue before acting or commenting. I am a BH. I have several close friends and relatives who are BH's. And I've read the stories here and many other places. I've concluded that ending the marriage after infidelity is the best way for a BH to recover. It's a tough journey for sure, but is it tougher than months of trickle-truth and years of working to reconcile? Is it tougher than fake-forgiveness that so many BH's offer in an attempt to put the whole thing in the rear view mirror only to have it all crash down on them a few years from now?

So, I know and accept that most men are going to try to reconcile with their WW and many of them will succeed to some degree. I know many of the compelling reason's that motivate a man - especially a good man - to try everything to stay and work it out. I respect these men and my heart breaks for the pain they are enduring and that's why I advocate for divorce. If it was my brother and he asked me for my advice I would advocate for divorce. If it was one of my son's asking I would advocate for divorce. My reason is simple: a man will heal better and faster by divorcing and starting over. His self-esteem begins to heal immediately and the triggers begin to fade much faster. And I believe he is more likely to be a better father to his kids when his mind is not cluttered with contempt for their mom. I don't care about the WW or the marriage. I care only for the injured party(s) - that being the BH and any children. I don't think painting me as some kind of villain is accurate.

Eric - Believe it or not, this worries me too. Terrifies me, actually. And in many ways, choosing divorce would be easy. I'd get out of infidelity faster, probably heal faster, maybe move on faster. Plus, I have a large black/white moral compass, sense of justice, what have you, shouting at me to just divorce her and move on. But I figure I can always choose that path. Once down that road, it's harder to pull back. But I can work toward R and see where that goes. What do I have to lose? Time? I've got 27 years invested in this relationship (don't quote sunk cost fallacy - it's not an economics project), so what's an extra 6 months to a year, or two? And if I see it's not going in the direction it should, divorce is always available as a choice for me. The key is for me to get to the point where I'm fully okay with that. Basically I choose from a position of strength and internal stability, and am good with either one.

[This message edited by Walloped at 8:22 PM, September 24th (Thursday)]

I don't care about the WW or the marriage. I care only for the injured party(s) - that being the BH and any children.

theDrifter - I liked your post. And I get your point. But regarding the above quote, all I can say in response is that I do. I still care about her. In some ways I hate the fact that I do cause if I didn't I feel like life would be so much easier. But I do. And I care about my marriage. Even if she didn't. I still do. And yeah, I probably don't care as much about my own well being as I should. What can I tell you? I'm a flawed man. So my decisions take into account my kids, her, my marriage, and me - probably in that order. May not be healthy, but it is what it is. If I only cared about items #1 and #4, I'd be right there with you. But I don't. So am I setting myself up for more pain, hurt, uncertainty, disappointment? Very possibly. But I may not be and I think I'm willing to risk it.

Walloped perhaps its time you put a higher priority on your own healing than your wife's welfare. How can you be there for any of them if you have not healed yourself? I do think you should show this to your counselor and discuss this.

W,

Trust me, you've impressed me with your self awareness or I'd be screaming louder.

My sense is that if you are tenacious to settle for that worst case scenario that you're also tenacious enough to stick around here with us losers. The time to chat about sticking around too long is just intellectual masterbation at this point.

As an anonymous internet advisor the pragmatic path here is to let each individual blaze their own trail because each trail is individual. We'll be there for you if you're about to walk over a cliff.

I totally agree with eric1

I always say divorce or reconciliation isn’t the worst outcome of infidelity. Immensely worse (and unfortunately extremely common) is remaining in untreated infidelity.

This doesn’t require that Mrs. W sees OM again, or has another affair. For all we know she can grow from her “mistake” [hesitate using that word. It’s like calling WW2 a “misunderstanding]. Maybe the problem will be that Mr. W never regains trust, finds love, respect… Usually the couple find a way to cohabit without ever addressing the real issues. Sort of learn to ignore the parade of pink elephants marching around the room.

Usually untreated infidelity happens when the WS and BS don’t realize the scope of the task ahead. We talk about 2 years as some magic timeline. IMHO the two year mark is when you sort of discover and decide if you are making progress… It’s like getting second wind on a long run… You still have a long way left but you get a sense it might be worth it and you might make it.

Your hike out of infidelity is a lot like a major mountain expedition. D-day and where you got so far is basically only the foothills and the first gullies, cliffs and valleys. Right now it’s like you have reached a plain or plateau and way ahead you can make out the outlines of mountains that you fear will make your hike to date seem like a pleasant stroll in the park. So you are pacing yourself… You might even be stopping in camp longer than necessary, or you might be walking in circles to avoid reaching those mountains.

Sometimes that’s OK because you need to gather your strength. You need to see the best path to take. But if you are walking back down the foothills or not making progress… You are in danger.

Do that and eventually you will feel OK for the time being on this plateau. Both you and Mrs. W will be content for now. Camp will feel fine. Canned food taste good… for now.

But you will never reach your destination…

Where I think I differentiate from others suggesting you work at R is that I think you need to sort of put on the concept and wear it. Commit to it and work at it with some passion. I’m OK with changing your mind. I’m OK with trying something, realizing it’s not working and then changing directions…

I’m OK with you 6 months from now telling Mrs. W “sorry but no cigar”.

But I’m not OK with stagnation.

That’s why I suggested the strangely-named group MC option (I can never remember the spelling)… It’s not ideal but it just might be the kick up the first of the next hills on your journey.

That’s why I suggested you ask your IC to recommend MC’s.

Frankly Mr. W… IMHO one is either married or not. I’m not talking about the ring or the ceremony or the contract. I’m talking about the emotions and relationship. You are in this void right now and the cause is undeniably that your wife forgot that simple fact: You are either married or not. For three months plus she wasn’t really married. Not to you. Then there is the confusion and trauma after d-day. But IMHO… I think that if you two don’t commit to active R work then you two aren’t really married and it’s by choice.

Frankly Mr. W… IMHO one is either married or not. I’m not talking about the ring or the ceremony or the contract. I’m talking about the emotions and relationship. You are in this void right now and the cause is undeniably that your wife forgot that simple fact: You are either married or not. For three months plus she wasn’t really married. Not to you. Then there is the confusion and trauma after d-day. But IMHO… I think that if you two don’t commit to active R work then you two aren’t really married and it’s by choice.

I like that Bigger. I think it is very accurate.

So Walloped how is home life now after resettling in for a little while?

Retrouvaille Bigger, and another awesome post!

very good post Bigger as always

[This message edited by Rain1177 at 12:28 AM, September 25th (Friday)]

I actually disagree that Wallup is stagnating.

I have an aquarium. When I buy a new fish sometimes it swims around, hesitantly, for a bit to make sure nothing will eat it. Mentally that's all W is doing now.

Eric - Believe it or not, this worries me too. Terrifies me, actually. And in many ways, choosing divorce would be easy. I'd get out of infidelity faster, probably heal faster, maybe move on faster. Plus, I have a large black/white moral compass, sense of justice, what have you, shouting at me to just divorce her and move on. But I figure I can always choose that path. Once down that road, it's harder to pull back. But I can work toward R and see where that goes. What do I have to lose? Time? I've got 27 years invested in this relationship (don't quote sunk cost fallacy - it's not an economics project), so what's an extra 6 months to a year, or two? And if I see it's not going in the direction it should, divorce is always available as a choice for me. The key is for me to get to the point where I'm fully okay with that. Basically I choose from a position of strength and internal stability, and am good with either one.

Faulty logic.

Not necessarily stagnated but definitely slowing down and IMHO at a risk of getting stuck in the mud…

I recall his IC was suggesting MC – I think his IC might have the same concerns as I do. That’s a guy that has the benefit of meeting Mr. W face-to-face.

At the same time I will agree that going too fast can be just as damaging as going too slow.

Mr. W – the key issue IMHO is being self-critical and aware of the issues. Feeling safe(er) is fine, on the hike I mentioned it’s OK to take rest-days. The key is to be aware whether you are resting or whether you are avoiding having to move on.

Retrouvaille

Damn, I always get that name confused with the animated movie about the mouse that becomes a great chef.

I agree with kimichi. Divorce is theoretically always available but after whatever time frame the social pressure to remain married grows to a pretty significant degree.

Right now not a person in the world would blame W. In a year he becomes the bad guy to his kids, mutual friends, etc.

It should not change his time frame but is an external variable that W needs to factor into his equation.