SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

SisterMilkshake, chifrudo, HouseofPlane, Bigger - thanks for your contributions to this thread. I think you all make great sense (as usual).

I suspect that virtually every member of SI would support D for any member for whom an A is a deal breaker.

When someone argues that R requires "lying, rug sweeping, self-denial, self-deception and escapism" coupled with low self-confidence, however, I'm concerned, on 2 counts.

First, misunderstanding/misrepresenting R means that people who R are misunderstood and misrepresented, too.

Second, I wonder if the lady protests too much. Lots of SIers see an A as a deal breaker for themselves, but they don't attack R or people who R. Lots of SIers choose R, but they don't attack people for choosing D because, for them, an A is a deal breaker.

IDK whether the op's comments about R come from anger and really mean nothing more than anger or if they reveal that he really wants to R, if only he could get over his feelings of anger, shame, grief, and fear. It's almost as if the op has to talk himself into D.

As I say, IDK which interpretation to put on the op's post.

[This message edited by sisoon at 4:57 PM, October 16th (Friday)]

again, Sisoon, I agree with Eric, and not the people you mentioned in your post although I do like them and think they contribute a ton on this board. Rather than coming here like a wounded dog, this OP showed frustration which is fine but he showed that his thoughts are solid and well thought out. He also shows that he is evaluating everything closely enough to give the people on this board a shot to give their opinion. This board, we tolerate all types of people's responses to being betrayed and I feel it is disingenuous not to have tolerance for this guy's feelings even though some couldn't help themselves and attacked his opinions on reconciliation. He hasn't been back. Hmmm.. could it be as a result of a couple of body checks he got early on this thread ?

Everytime someone argues here that they feel a marriage can't be saved, there are many who dissent, IMO moreso than the people who try to reconcile gets dissenting opinions from those who feel they should divorce. In this case, you have the OP who says the marriage can't be saved. Let's respect his opinion and try helping him through this difficult process. I am all for people who disagree that he should get divorced and for them to express their opinion but it needs to be both ways here.

I want the OP to come back and give us more details. We are assuming the level of betrayal here but we don't really actually know what happened.

So I would like the original poster to come back and fill in the details if you can. In the meantime, I support his journey through divorce if that's what he chooses. If you he chooses to reconcile, that's alright too. But he has his principles and his standing on them is something I respect.

BTW, I will never try reconciliation again in my life after what happened to me. That doesn't mean I disrespect the concept though I really don't know how some people do it in severe cases here. However, not all of these cases are clearcut but when an OP comes on here to profess his strong will and gets picked on, something even the mods preached against last week, we need to chill as a board. That counts for this thread too

[This message edited by Western at 7:52 PM, October 16th (Friday)]

Western, I don't want to get into a debate with you. That is a t/j and we are here to support ImGoneBytheDown. I don't have any stake in what ImGoneByTheDown chooses for his path, D or R. I am neither pro D or pro R, however, I will be honest in saying that I am happy when a couple can happily reconcile, especially when children are involved.

No, my issue was his generalizations and his characterization of those who reconcile. Which were rather disparaging of people who reconcile and of reconciliation itself. He can have an opinion on reconciliation, but it doesn't have to be at the expense of others who choose differently.

I fully support ImGoneByTheDown's decision at this point to divorce. I respect anyone's decision to divorce after infidelity. I respect anyone's decision to reconcile after infidelity. I hope I didn't give the impression otherwise.

eta: for clarity

[This message edited by SisterMilkshake at 8:49 PM, October 16th (Friday)]

Imgonebythedown,

Again, I am sorry you are going through this unimaginable pain. I have been there and it hurts like hell. I am glad that you have found a forum to get all your thoughts and anger of YOUR ww's hurtful behaviour out.

You have every right to lament on the merits of R or D in your quest to get through this shit-storm. These are your thoughts and opinions about your current relationship and I admire your ability to reflect on infidelity in general.

I wish you the best on your road to divorce and hope you will join us back here again soon to give us an update, vent, or reflect some more.

Good luck to you and your children.

{{{Hugs}}}

Thanks all!

It is really encouraging to see the support here; surprising too, at least for me, I nust say. I have not disappeared or can't handle other opinions and critics. I'm just not always am able to reply immediately or have the mood to do this. I hope you understand it. Actually I see that I am getting here more support than I thought I would get. I am thankful and grateful for that. I actaully thought that I would be more attacked so it's really great to see that I am not alone in this. Many folks here asked questions to calrify the issues and I promise to answer them later as this is exactly what I was looking for and think that it could help me to approach the path I have chosen in the best way. I'll come back later to answer the question and clarify other things.

[This message edited by ImGoneByTheDown at 2:15 AM, October 17th (Saturday)]

I think what hits so close to home for me in this thread is the envy I have for SI-ers like ImGone and Spaceghost. Envy? Yes. Because I wish I could have just ended it on my second dday.

Although my husband is the embodiment of a remorseful spouse, I know deep down that infidelity is a deal breaker for me.

But, thirty years of a life together, all the complications of this farm (not an operation for one person to handle)... a good life. He's a kind and nurturing man, a good partner.

But, I feel nothing more. I was so over the moon for him until 2/14/2014. That broke. It's dead. But, we have a wonderful life together.

Pretty much every bit of what ImGone wrote resonated with me. I just chose not to follow through because, well, that's my choice, isn't it?

Has his post hit a nerve because it's what many of us would want, that clarity, that definitive path right away after dday?

not a problem, sistermilkshake, as I hinted above, I have all the respect in the world for you. I just felt it was right to let the guy vent and give him leeway. I know there are two sides to the debate.

I am glad OP has come back. I hope he posts more here soon.

i finaly see a BS who i can relate with.... not risking yellow cards

Has his post hit a nerve because it's what many of us would want, that clarity, that definitive path right away after dday?

Not for me, Valentine, as I had the clarity of what path I wanted to take right away after d-day.

Valentinessucks

I want to start from the end and begin with your last post because as standing opposed to those who tried to claim that I disrespect people who chose to reconcile you are an example of reconciling partner that I respect and admire. Seems like contradiction? Actually no, because, you are truthful about the nature of what you've done not trying to deny, rug sweep and so on. I can understand that not everyone can follow because of various different reasons and enforce their beliefs – both men as well as women. Yet, you are truthful about it and this is a good reason to admire you even if you didn't do what I believe had to be done. I'm sure your honesty and truthfulness helps you a lot to deal with a situation that might be not easy at all.

What I criticize is indeed the concept of reconciliation as in regard to infidelity but not the person itself. I think you mention it between the lines but I'm not angry with the people that attacked me on my attitudes because I do believe it was not from a place to hurt me but most probably from a place of difficulty or maybe even hurt and pain. However, in the same way that I understand that to a certain degree when dealing with those problems we can't completely divide between the general and the personal aspect of the thread meaning taking things in proportion, I hope that other people can understand and do the same. I can't come to ask for support, stating I am going to divorce but saying anything about the reason because someone would misinterpret it as personal attack.

Wouldn't I be attacked and even more for such a stance being described for good reason as unreasonable and ignorant person who have knee jerk reaction without knowing what I am doing. At the end, I'll have to explain it and we would be at the same point that some people will misinterpret the things I'm saying. I am truly sorry if someone took it personally, but in the specific paragraphs that were quoted and other I mentioned not one, not two and not three times that it is for me so; that it is how I see things. Other people are entitled to other opinions and that's o.k. Maybe, I should state it more time and I accept it. Most probably, I missed to point it more as the first post was difficult for me and I'll be more aware of that. Thanks again, I am grateful for your support and supportive of the decisions you made.

Now, some other poster tried to portray me as either being ignorant or incapable of understanding the process of forgiveness and reconciliation. I want to explain how I see it. First of all what I was criticizing was the concept of reconciliation and not forgiveness as in regard to infidelity. I think in one section I mentioned them together but besides of this I was oposing reconciliation, not forgiveness. Why? So, let's explore how I understand it. It that sense, I think that forgiveness is very important for me, but it has nothing to do with reconciliation.

It is important for me at least because of three main reasons:

1. If I don't forgive I may become a prisoner of my past and thus suffering with no end

2. If I chose to give up on any romantic relationship, which is what I want right now, simply because of my lack of trust, so it must come from a place of forgiveness, acceptance and self-love; otherwise, it is hateful escapism, anger and fear which are not conducive to happiness

3. If I will chose in the future to be in a relationship with another woman, I have to let go and forgive my wife because otherwise she would poison this new relationship by being some ghost or phantom hanging over our heads. It would not be only disrespectful and unfair to the new woman in my life but I would consider it as a kind of infidelity and unfaithfulness because I can't provide her undivided attention, affection, care and support because no matter for what reason, even hate and anger, my thoughts are consumed with another woman

Chifrudo, mentioned that all philosophical paths and thoughts claim that forgiveness and reconciliation I more difficult. I disagree and it is only partially correct. All philosophical and religious paths claim that compassion, forgiveness and love are difficult. No such thought or spiritual path forces you to reconcile with cheaters. I come from a spiritual path that put such great emphasize on it, but it not requires me to reconcile. I WILL FORGIVE MY WIFE for the abuse and trauma she inflicted on me, but I never, ever, reconcile with her and give her another chance to maybe abuse me once again. Period!

Moreover, HouseOfPlane, mentioned that my wife actually owns my head and my planes after divorce are showing that what I'm doing will not bring happiness, because I'm into punishing her and not forgiving. Wrong, it's me begging, pleading and behaving with no self-respect would be such a thing. The truth is that in order to be truly happy forgiveness is not the only requirement and it is not enough. One need at least some degree of wisdom learned from what happened and it must come from a place of security, not fear. If forgiveness is coming from a place of fear and ignorance, it's not genuine forgiveness but more of a masochism and self-hate. In the bottom line, true forgiveness can come only if both parties are hold in the equation of compassion, not only my wife but me too.

Why this insight is important, because if for example a woman would be abused by her husband, physically, verbally, emotionally and otherwise – no one with right senses would tell her to forgive and see him unprotected because otherwise it is not conducive to her happiness. In that case, as I already said, my wife is the abuser and perpetrator and I am the abused and victim, so claiming taking care of my security is somehow not conducive to my happiness, well let's say it's a little bit of a double standard. It's the exact twisted phenomena of the damsel in distress and the bad guy syndrome. She is not a damsel in distress and I am not the bad guy so what I am doing is indeed conducive to my happiness. It's not punishing her but protecting my-self – plain and simple! If she feels punished it's only her stupidity that brought her there, not me. Think before you act and actions have consequences as I said.

Notthevictem

Thanks for the advice.

Journaling and exercising can be great; I'll definitely do this! As to drinking so along with smoking I don't drink at all (don't use alcohol) so that's not a problem

HollyHell

I agree with you that anger is of no use and not a healthy emotion. However, I also believe it is unhealthy both to suppress as well as acting on that anger. I do try to practice letting on so that it will disappear on its own way. I am much better now and will continue to work on letting go on it. It does give me great deal of suffering and I see it. I am not approaching it heedlessly. The only thing I partially disagree with you is on the statement that she's not some rancid hellspawn who tricked you for 15 years. I mean this is one possibility; the other one is that she is like this, which I tend to believe. Either way, I have to learn to let go of the anger and practice forgiveness (not reconciliation) as I already mentioned.

YearsOfPain25

Thanks for your post. It was very helpful and opened my eyes to aspects I did not consider before. You mentioned the need of my wife to work on her-self for the sake of the children. Right now, this is what happening. However, I have no control of what happens when we are divorce; I can't make any claims or tell her what to do.

Some poster wrongly stated her that divorcing instead of reconciling is avoiding risks and uncertainty. Wrong, a person who divorce undergoes immense risks as well as uncertainty. The only thing we avoid is a proven cheater and us adding un-necessary and spin off uncertainty to a world and reality that is uncertain anyway. As a man the risks are huge:

1. Being potentially alienated from your children

2. Serving as ATM while having little or no contact with the children

3. Financial loss

4. False claim of domestic violence and many more

I've researched it, it is unbelievable what men have to endure (women too)

So, this is another thing that can be very problematic. Any idea how to handle this best? It would be really appreciated

You asked me why she confessed. Her version, she didn't want to lie and the guilt. In my opinion it was a combination of this as well as the fear of getting caught

You asked me why she cheated. I have an assumption over this. Yet, it's unimportant; she must find it out, yet me not wanting to reconcile is putting me on the position to insist on it. Maybe, I'm wrong! I would like to hear your opinion

Merida and StillStanding1, I am not going to abandon my children! I also agree after reading the responses here that going abroad at this stage which is fragile for the children is not good. I'll have to find a better way to detox myself from her, spend quality time with myself while not hurting my children. I will do these adjustments and I thank everyone who opened my eyes on it. I am also sure that I will need advice and maybe counseling if there is such thing on how effectively to co parent with here. I hope she agrees to do this. I am more concerned right now of losing access and contact with my children rather to abandon them. Divorce does not mean I am out of their live and I hope my wife understands it and will not resort in the future to revenge tactics because I decided to divorce her.

Chifrudo

I have already addressed the points on forgiveness to Valentinessucks

"I see this a lot on these boards and, frankly, I think it is bullshit. We have all betrayed our spouses in ways large and small"

No, we have not all betrayed our partners in that extent and depth and this is both, the false equivalency cheater want to manipulate betrayed spouses into believing as well as the damsel in distress and the bad guy phenomena. We also not all have betrayed their spouses even if we all have wrong our loved ones. Most people do not murder, cheat and abuse. I have done nothing of this infidelity shit not only to her but also to other women prior to her. So, I'm NOT ON THE SAME LEVEL AS HER and to adopt that lack self –respect, lack of self-esteem and self-hate. Yes, I've done wrong, yes I made mistakes, no I didn’t do what she has done (if she wishes I'll go to polygraph), thus I'm am morally superior to a cheater and her cheating on me means she is not my equal. What is so hard to understand here! It's very simple, no need to complicate things!

"I think that all or nearly all of us are capable of infidelity"

Being able in theory of infidelity is not the same as being able to practice it reality. Most people do not practice it. Why? It is actually irrelevant: they are more self-aware, wiser, less entitled, have morals, have boundaries, coping skill, add whatever you want. Some do not do this. Period!

- Good people can do bad things. This is simply a fact. A refusal to acknowledge it doesn't make it less true.

No, that's cheater think that cheaters try to manipulate us into it. Once again, it's me and don't take it personally, but it is the mental Gymnastic through which truth is suppressed and of course once again in my opinion bending the truth in that way does not make it less truthful. Good people can do bad things; evil people cheat on their loved ones.

- Have you ever done something wrong? If you were remorseful, how would you want to be treated?"

I have done many wrong things, were remorseful, sometimes forgiven and sometimes not. However, being truly remorseful I was never angry with those who haven’t forgiven ne, I learned to let go, to forgive my-self and move on. However, I have never, but never, done that kind of evil. Never wanted, do not want right now (as revenge affair) and will never want. I'm not a cheater and never will be!

Dismayed2012

Thanks a lot for your post; it is eye opening on what happened to you.

Nekonamida

Thanks

HouseOfPlane

As with Chiefrudo, the first part of your post I answered above. Anyway, in the second half you wrote:

Ever heard of Hanlon's Razor? Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.

Wrong, evil is always connected to stupidity (ignorance) and is always rooted there. If evil was not rooted in ignorance but wisdom, which is a contradiction, then it would be impossible, hence wise and self-aware people do not do that things, hence they are wise enough to understand the consequences. If they didn't they were not wise enough. The only validity I see in your statement is that evil rooted in ignorance and stupidity is indeed forgivable, however as stated above it does not equal and by definition requires or equals reconciliation. By the way, I even don't need to tell her that I forgive her. Just to forgive, that's all!

Bigger

I do believe that people who transform from infidelity are special and even more than this in my eyes almost saints. I do think such people do exist and happy that those are the moderators here. Anyway, I think you haven't really understood what I have written on the concept of reconciliation, simply because the notion you wrote in your response is incorrect. However, I don't want to go deeper into that as it seems that it is triggering or is at least causing people to interpret it as though I am hostile to people who reconcile. I outlined it above.

Wk55hn

Are you curious how your wife came to cheat?

Well, curious might be the wrong term. On one level, I don't give a shit why she cheated because I won't let me into the position of blaming my-self for it (she does it neither). Second, I don't buy the FOO issues as a reason to cheat. Almost everyone has FOO issues, but the majority does not use it as excuse. I don't buy the mental issues too and she has no mental problems. I think I know why she cheated but me not wanting to reconcile does not make me in the position to demand that. I do think on the other had that it is important to her. She must work it out. That is something different and maybe could be interesting to know

What was her behavior throughout the marriage?

Nothing has pointed to that, at least nothing I was able to notice

Were you happy with her before this?

Look, we were happy although as with every marriage there were up and downs. We worked through and I can't remember that when she had issues and brought it I did not do what has to be done to address it. I am sure it would have not be different this time if she was unhappy with something

Who was the guy?

She had a few female friends and it is someone she knew over them. I must admit I didn't like group of her friends. Anyway, now she's cut contact with all of them all together.

[This message edited by ImGoneByTheDown at 2:38 PM, October 17th (Saturday)]

I really respect someone that is decisive and straightforward with their decision. I commend you ImGone for that. I so wished I had stuck to my guns On DDay#1. I flew home (working out of state) and went straight to my attorney and filed for D before XWH#2 ever saw me. Then of course I got the blame shifting, rug sweeping love bomber who hoovered me back in with more lies. Unfortunately I did not discover SI until after DDay#2. At the time people kept telling me not to make any rash decisions and to give XWH#2 time to think about it and that maybe he would finally show remorse for his LTA. It never happened. He just kept wanting to rug sweep and blame shift for the 3yrs of false R. Unfortuately I allowed it and still have trouble respecting myself for it. I had always been a decisive person before and really loved my husband and I really thought he would finally step up and be a man. He never did.

I just wanted you to know that everyone is entitled to eat this crap anyway they choose. Whether to D or R is an individual decision. Some of us take years to decide, some such as yourself don't. Hindsight is always 20/20. I do think it helps to vent in a place where you are heard and supported. You just have to take what is relivant to you and leave the rest.

Imgone,

Here is my story, the end of my marriage .........

I was just trying to hash out what I had to do next and the near future. At one point, I realized that having the one night stand was actually not me. I was the one who was faithful for 10 years, loved my wife unconditionally, and promised to be there for her throughout our marriage. So why should I throw my self-respect and dignity away all because she screwed up? I would be losing by letting her push me to the edge like that, not winning.

But even with deciding not to go through with the ONS, I knew I had to talk to my wife and let her know how I was feeling and what I wanted. I texted her and told her to try to get home before 6pm so that we can have a talk. She asked me if something was wrong and I told her that we just needed to talk about us because I didn't want to alarm her for the entire day.

I get home and we immediately sit down to talk. I tell her that I love her and that what I was going to tell her wasn't easy. I begin by telling her that the last 6 months have truly made me happier than I was in the 4 miserable months of separation. I had hope that the happiness that I had would be enough to get us back on track but every time I thought things were progressing in the right direction, I would have my moments of darkness. Moments where I would look at her smiling and acting normally as if what she did was deleted from her memory even though I knew it wasn't. Moments where I would realize that when she cheated, she unraveled all the love and beauty that our relationship had produced in the last 10 years.

Because of how I felt that way, we were essentially at ground zero and back to square 1. We had to basically date again before we could even act like husband and wife. For me personally, I had to take a step back from time to time and see why or how my wife betrayed me the way she did. Why she couldn't come to me and tell me that she was lonely and feeling neglected. After all, we would tell each other EVERYTHING. She didn't tell me she was hurting so instead, she selfishly let another man have her in bed. She had many opportunities to step away that night but she didn't and that stings.

Sleeping with my wife the last 6 months has been hell. I told her that even with the very occasional number of times we did sleep together in this period, I felt like I wasn't sleeping with my wife but rather another man's wife. I am so disconnected every time and have to endure sporadic thoughts of whether or not she did what we were doing with the other guy. Having sex was no longer something pleasurable that we did as a couple but rather a challenge we had to do as individuals. She started to tear up at this point about to interrupt me but I told her I needed to tell her more.

I explained that no matter how much I loved her, there was still this dark cloud that always reminded me that she cheated when I was faithful and a great husband. I explained to her the imbalance I felt because of my pride and how I once contemplating having a one night stand with another woman. She continued to tear up and kept listening. I explained to her that I realized I was better than that. That just because she did something wrong didn't mean I had to do something wrong too just to make myself feel better. It wouldn't have been fair to me nor her.

But unfortunately, my decision not to go ahead with the ONS didn't have much to do with my love for my wife as it did with with self-respect and pride. And I say that even though I love my wife very much. I told her that I realized that the ONS or anything else for that matter will probably never fix what has been broken. I commended her for trying hard to make it up to me the last couple of months but it wasn't her that was the problem, it was me. No matter what she does, I will always remember her betrayal and for me to linger on that thought would not be fair for myself or for her. I told her that I had forgiven her for what she had done but my forgiveness, unfortunately, isn't strong enough to endure years and years of anguish through a healing process I don't even know will fair well in the end.

Somewhere at this point, she broke down crying and told me that she would do anything to win my heart back because she loved me so much. I reminded her that she was a great person in that she tried very hard to do that already but I was just the problem. I told her that I loved her enough to finally let go, let her find someone else that she can start over with and can see her for the woman I once saw her. She broke down and said that I was the only one she wanted to be with and that she would never want to be with anyone else again, that she couldn't because her heart belonged to me, etc. I felt a little bad but reminded myself that this was best for me and this would be my true and only selfish moment, not with a stupid ONS.

I told her that I would be filing for divorce in a while but in the meantime would still be living at home, staying in our guest room. I told her that the house and 2 of our cars will be hers while I take my own car (a classic) that I spent years to restore. And everything else will be split according to what our attorneys agree upon. She cried some more but I told her that I loved her and that she had been a great wife for 8 years but all great stories must come to an end at some point. I gave her a kiss on the cheek and gave her some space to cry and gather herself. As for me, I'm not sure what the future will hold but I will surely take my time and do what I need and think is best for me.

Has his post hit a nerve because it's what many of us would want, that clarity, that definitive path right away after dday?

Clarity is nice, but not sufficient. I think Bigger asked the profound question...

Do you feel a sense of relief and purpose with your decision?

ImGone, this is what folks ultimately want you to have. Relief and a sense of purpose to accompany your clarity. How do we help you to get there?

ETA: just saw your post. I think you are ready for the D forum, my friend. Best of luck!

One more ETA, in your post above you wrote

because I'm into punishing her and not forgiving.

That is not what I was saying. I was implying you were into punishing and not detaching. Both punishing or forgiving = staying in your head.

[This message edited by HouseOfPlane at 11:32 AM, October 17th (Saturday)]

want, that clarity, that definitive path right away after dday

IMO I don't think the point of offering differing viewpoints and caution about acting "in the emotional moment" is the same thing as dissenting against having clarity

it is simply pointing out that it is hard to truly KNOW your reality when first hit with this sh**storm called Dday is all ... and at only two months in, what seems like a "good plan" like all plans of the future, two years out, seems to have shut a lot of doors without opening windows if those plans were made simply from unconscious reaction to offense

we all, I believe, want to achieve clarity. I have not often read clarity as I have rage, pain, sadness, confusion, and a whole host of other thoughts and plans that simply put really aren't about anything other than "get out of the kill zone" in the JFO first post... So, to me, while that is obviously a good first step, like so many have pointed out here there are children involved so it's not just really all a "simple" plan about self-protection, is it, in the bigger picture sense.

And then there was his mentioning his choosing to just live alone long term afterwards = is that healthy? Maybe... but than why, if that was in his nature to be solitary, did he choose to get married and have children, was all I and I believe others were asking in posting to slow down somewhat to process and really get some clarity about how many moving parts re-shaping everyones' lives involves. So many realize he's riding a roller coaster for awhile.

So yes, fine if the choice is to D. The consequences can be that clear cut in the short term. But no, I do not think it envious to be so quick to judgment when so many times it seems that life is neither black nor white when inspected a bit closer

just my two cents

***posting as a member***

I'm really heartened to see people respectfully posting to each other on this very divisive subject.

As I read, I can't help but do it with the same lens that I try to look at the rest of the human experience.

We can purport to have the correct outlook and course of action for all of humanity all day long, but one size never ever fits all. Each of our experiences and paths are so different, that to start putting people in buckets based on our own viewpoint is shortsighted and unfair.

Divorce is right for some. Reconciliation is right for others. Do we all handle the aftermath perfectly? Heck no! Can we try and lend our experience to others in hopes that we can save them some pain? Totally.

It's when we start labeling others as weak or incorrect because they don't subscribe to our ideology that we've lost sight of what it means to live authentically. We need to take in each person and moment and find our own truths in it, and carve out our own path, correcting course when we see a better lightened path.

I'm very leery of people who say "Do this or you're wrong" and I'm so proud of all the posters here who can respect the infinite differences in our situations and character.

Edited for grammar.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 11:39 AM, October 17th (Saturday)]

Anyhow, the way I see it is that the more confident, the more self-aware and the more respecting people are inclined to consider and look at themselves, the more the perceptive dissonance arising in our minds trough such a self-deception is too much inclined to appear as betraying your own ethics, your own basic moralities and your whole world as well as being in fact apt to leave an everlasting and disgustingly repulsive scar all over your face that you will be sickened to look at each morning in the mirror. Just because by lying, rug sweeping, self-denial, self-deception and escapism reconciliation can be achieved and technically "successful", it doesn't mean this reconciliation or "success" is worth it.

This is what you posted. I understand you used the qualifiers "for me" a few times, however you then went on to use the words "you" and "your" meaning "us" who have reconciled. If you had instead have posted this paragraph using just yourself, I would have absolutely no problem with what you had posted about reconciliation. Do you see the difference and why those who have chosen reconciliation may have felt a bit bashed by you?

Anyway, the way I see it is that in my confidence, my self-awareness, my self-respect as I look at myself, the more perceptive dissonance arises in my mind and I feel it would be self-deception and I would be betraying my own ethics, my own basic moralities and my whole world as well as being in fact apt to leave an everlasting and disgustingly repulsive scar all over my face that I will be sickened to look at each morning in the mirror. Just because by lying, rug sweeping, self-denial, self-deception and escapism I can achieve reconciliation and technically be "successful", it doesn't mean this reconciliation or "success" is worth it.

SisterMilkshake

First of all, I used "you" and "your" in general terms, not adressing specific poeple. Besides, I mentioned that in this specific paragraph, I missed to mention that it is for me. Once again, I appologised and will be more careful. I will apologise again and if necessary even more times.

However, it does not take away what I think about reconciliation, not poeple who chose it. Do you prefer me not talk about it and and not telling the truth about my true feelings and emotions? Poeple told me what they feel and think and it was not pleasant to my year but I don't react that way because it's better to be said if certain boundaries are not cross.

I appologize again and am truly sorry if you were hurt, I'll try to censor next a few things so that we can discuss topics more fluently. I hope you accept my aplogy

[This message edited by ImGoneByTheDown at 12:26 PM, October 17th (Saturday)]

ImGoneBy, no you do not need to apologize more. Thank you for that. I am just pointing out that it is best to speak in the first person as opposed to using the words "you" and "your". Did you see the difference in the paragraphs?

As I had mentioned, I know you are coming from a place of pain and anger as this is all new to you. And opening up on this forum isn't easy for everyone.

You are free to feel anyway you like about reconciliation. May take is that you don't feel anyone should reconcile after infidelity. I feel you may have been heavily influenced by some of the reading you have done. A particular blog that is very against reconciliation and WS's. As sisoon pointed out (and I think Bigger, too) I don't think you really understand reconciliation.

misunderstanding/misrepresenting R means that people who R are misunderstood and misrepresented, too.

If you think so little of those who reconcile (and btw, if that is the way Valentine truly feels, I don't feel she is "happily, successfully reconciled" and that is not what reconciliation looks like) it will be difficult for you to accept our support and advice. That is cutting out a whole lot of support and, believe it or not, wisdom. As I have pointed out countless times, I support your decision to divorce.

However, if at some point you decide you may want to give reconciliation a chance, I would support that choice, too. There would be many that can show you the path to "true reconciliation" where there is no lying, rug sweeping, no escapism, denial, betraying of ethics and morals. Because reconciliation has nothing to do with those things. It has everything to do with living your life (lives) authentically.

Best of luck, ImGone, with your journey of healing from infidelity. I wish you peace and serenity.

eta: again, for clarity

[This message edited by SisterMilkshake at 12:49 PM, October 17th (Saturday)]

SisterMilkshake

"I don't think you really understand reconciliation"

I think you are doing now what you expect from me not to do to you (and others) ! HMM!. I think this is a very patronizing and arrogant statement. By the way, as opposed to me stating I don't understand anything without explaining your point, while I explained everything in depth and from various angles is how I should say is at least very problematic. I think I understand the concepts very well and until addressed in details I will not take it for serious statement. I think what you say about Valentinessucks is disrespectful to her. In my opinion her reconciliation is much more authentic of those who claim otherwise. At least it is as authentic as them

Merida

"So yes, fine if the choice is to D. The consequences can be that clear cut in the short term. But no, I do not think it envious to be so quick to judgment when so many times it seems that life is neither black nor white when inspected a bit closer"

I think labeling what I say as judgment, when I have explained everything in depth and from various angles is prejudice and judgment in itself.

"And then there was his mentioning his choosing to just live alone long term afterwards = is that healthy? Maybe... but than why, if that was in his nature to be solitary, did he choose to get married and have children, was all I and I believe others were asking in posting to slow down somewhat to process and really get some clarity about how many moving parts re-shaping everyones' lives involves. So many realize he's riding a roller coaster for awhile"

This is also unfounded judgment and prejudice. As I got married, I did not planned on living a celibate and solitary life and hide it from my wife; yet, her breaking all boundaries by lying, deceiving and betraying me changed the game and made me to make that decision. I was doing that mainly because the lack of trust I have now in relationships with women. It is actually my problem and it would be unfair to the new women in my life and the new relationship if this is how I would approached this because she probably has nothing to do with this. By the way, what does it have to do with my wife? She does not come into question in this new relationship. Me choosing to give up on relationships and romantic love does not mean giving up on the parental relationship with my children. It has nothing to do with this

[This message edited by ImGoneByTheDown at 1:24 PM, October 17th (Saturday)]

Hello.

I think it is perfectly understandable and ok to divorce her. I also encourage you to seek individual counselling to help you deal with the aftermath of the betrayal and everything. Also, when one of you two will move out, set up counselling for the kids, they need professional help in dealing with the divorce.

Best wishes