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WW and I are preparing for a formal "disclosure" of the affair.

I feel I know most, if not all, of the information I need to have about the affair, but I'm told by our MC and IC's that it is helpful.

It is a formal event where you both sit down and read out written statements about what you did.

For Edith, she will be admitting to all parts of the affair that she committed. I will make a formal statement to her of the impact to me of the affair. Then we will both make statements in how our actions contributed to the ill health of the marriage before the affair (not to be confused with causing the affair). Then we will both make statements of boundaries in which we state what we need to keep ourselves safe going forward.

Supposedly it will help formally express all that has been felt and done piecemeal over the last 27 months of trickle truth.

I will, at the end of the disclosure, ask Edith to have a polygraph to confirm some token points of the disclosure to ensure she is telling the truth. I am really done with lies.

It will probably take a month or so to be all done with it. Hopefully by Christmas I will then have moved out of the "What have you done!?!" phase of the affair to the "Ouch! That absolutely killed me!" phase. After then a year or two of anger and disappointment at my lot in my marriage, then a couple years of disgruntlement and acceptance.

One day, hopefully before all my children are off to college, I won't wake up and think of the affair within the first few seconds. Maybe I can even go a whole day without feeling sickness or pain. It's hard to even hope for that at this point.

But, life moves on, and we will either get better or we won't. At any rate, I won't be in limbo that much longer.

Thanks again for all of the help, commiseration, 2x4's and encouragement.

Then we will both make statements in how our actions contributed to the ill health of the marriage before the affair (not to be confused with causing the affair).

This part bothers me. Even with the parenthetical disclaimer, I would have a hard time juxtaposing affair issues with marital problems issues. I don't see the value in making them two parts of the same discussions and in fact see it as aiding in conflating the two.

I yearn for the day we have done enough affair healing, so we can deal with the underlying problems in our marriage.

It is a formal event where you both sit down and read out written statements about what you did.

I want to make sure I understand this. You are to sit down and listen to all of the details from her, and then give your impact statement in the same sitting?

I will, at the end of the disclosure, ask Edith to have a polygraph to confirm some token points of the disclosure to ensure she is telling the truth. I am really done with lies.

You dont believe her anyway, so why bother with some kind of formal reading of what she has done.

And then go on to a polygraph. This sounds like a redundant argument. Is she going to once again blame you for what she did wrong.

When it comes to affairs and healing and closure, it is all about the truth, the entire truth about what the WS did, and the why and how it will never happen again.

If Edith reads out some formal statement of all of the things she did, that sounds like that should be it, but she has lied with TT throughout everything.

And then the polygraph.

It just sounds to me like you are all going through hell just to get Edith to be totally honest, and this has gone on for a very long time.

If she has not been honest before, why do you think she will now....

My thinking is, you do not trust a word she says, otherwise you would not have a polygraph after all of this. How are you going to deal with what she has done, and the only way you can is to understand the why and then forgive.

Has she ever given you a valid why, instead of blaming you for everything. Without a valid why she did this, forgiving is rather hard to do. Just keep that in mind NP.

Getting over what she did is what is holding you back, plus all of her lying and TT and you do not believe her.

What is the polygraph for, other guys, how many times, what. Because as far as I know, emotional questions are not valid with a polygraph.

I can tell you are having a very hard time getting over what she did, and she made it worse with the constant lying and blaming it all on you.

You need to find a way to get over it. And if a polygraph does it, great, but I sense, you cannot fathom what she has done. And that will take a hell of a lot more than a formal reading and another polygraph.

OK cut the end of this dysfunctional chase.

Quit pussy footing around and grow a pair and demand that she take another poly. Ask about the Monday night, event. Get the truth because at the end of the day, you aren't ever going to get strong enough to leave, and demand the respect you deserve. So if you don't demand it do you deserve it? I guess not.

Hope you can manage 4 teenaged girls that model their futures after their mothers lying and manipulative behavior, and warn any possible partners they bring into the fold of this f'd up family......

Seriously NP you are already years into this, and are still at the discovery stage. Your kids will be on social security by the time you work through this shit. Your therapists must love you. My god at this rate, you will be able to singlehandedly pay for college for one of their kids.

How sad for your kids. They are sure to repeat the dysfunction. I'm sorry for being so brash but the ownness is on you. YOU are the only one who can make her, your wife, accountable and give you the love and respect you deserve, and create consequences when she is incappable or unwilling to do so.

Quit pussy footing around and grow a pair

Seriously? How is this at all helpful? NP5 posted here for support, not to be emasculated?

I realise your intentions are good but if you can't support NP5 perhaps you should step back from his threads. Besides, this was just an update, not a request for advice.

at the end of the day, you aren't ever going to get strong enough to leave

How is leaving your family necessarily a display of strength? NP5's children are his world. Why should he have to leave unless he decides that is best for him and his children. Given the shit sandwich that every BS here has been handed by their WS, I think they all show strength just making it through each day and they do it in their own way.

NP5, please continue to update us on your progress.

[This message edited by T123 at 5:23 AM, November 5th (Thursday)]

My WW and I have four children. We divorced and I got custody. Trying to maintain my career and raise four kids myself was a disaster. My employer was very forgiving but I materially damaged my career. At the time of the divorce my oldest son went from being an A student to a D student, and he remains damaged in many ways.

My wife and I remarried. My career has recovered some. And the three younger children are prospering.

But my wife is a WW, not a fWW. The qualities that make her a liar and cheater remain. (These include mental health issues, not just immorality). Her honesty is maintained by my having to monitor her continually.

Those that say that staying with a wayward spouse sets a poor example for the kids are, in my opinion, fools. Divorce severely damages kids. It also may damage the monetary foundation used to raise those kids.

Notperfect has no perfect options. Each is bad. But one is less bad. Why beat him up? It is his wife who is the selfish one.

Notperfect, I think your time would be better spent getting an ironclad one-sided post-nup, GPS on her phone and in her car, all passwords to all devices, and controlling her bank accounts. And if she balks, then divorce her. If she agrees just make the best of it until the kids are older.

Counseling won't help your wife until she wants to change. And less evolved people don't generally want to change until they hit rock bottom. From what I have read here, your wife has not reached rock bottom because you allow her comfortable existence to continue.

[This message edited by PlanC at 6:01 AM, November 5th (Thursday)]

While each of our stories are different and there are generalizations each of us has out own truths too.

My post while harsh, is attempting to get to a Man who has allowed his wife to lie and abuse him over a very long period of time. This man has waxed and waned of even attempting to get at some truth. He for the longest of time, even over a year, was conflicted, and allowed himself to be manipulated into believing his wife and her lies, that she wasn't having sex, they were just friends, it was all his fault, and he also has shared that manipulation and abuse being spread to his children, from his wife making a young girl be party to her secrets and lie to her father, to another behaving in a manner that mirrored her mother, and was abusive to him.

There are situations where some families choose to stay together, and it may be right, but until this woman fully owns her actions, and stops the bullshit, she continues to set a horrific example of what a wife, and mother should be. NP has made it clear that they are not going to be destitute should either choose to D. They have resources that will allow them to D and still a sense of normalcy, and this will allow at least one (NP) to become strong and healthy, and supportive again.

NP - I realize that I came out of the gate last night relatively harshly, but we all know I'm not known for being warm and fuzzy and certainly not for blowing sunshine. I do feel you are at a crisis and breaking point. I hope during your absence in the last few months you have taken some time to get stronger, and gain some perspective.

We are all here to support you, me included. Others can tell you that when I see abuse or dysfunction that is hurting the kids it makes me a little bit crazy.

T/J here...

Divorce severely damages kids.

I think this is a dangerous generalization to make. My older two kids were 2 and 5 when their unrepentant cheating mom and I split up. In fact, it was very difficult for them and created more obstacles for their emotional maturity and sense of stability than their intact family counterparts.

But I'm pleased to say they are amazing grown ups now. High achievers (a Doctor and a Veterinarian), in healthy relationships with wonderful partners and possess deeply caring moral souls.

My youngest is now 17 and while her mother and I are doing our best to reconcile after WW's marital hiatus, and our daughter is certainly damaged, despite us not splitting up.

This is an admittedly tiny sample size, not offered to suggest that divorce is not a damaging event, just to illustrate that family dynamics affect children in myriad ways and a simple statement of cause and effect does an injustice to the many factors that influence the emotional development of kids.

</soapbox>

NP, I think you should absolutely skip any discussion of marital problems. Your WW needs to lay down pride and ego and get really real with what she did.

I struggled for 2 YEARS... Not with TT but with my gut screening that my WH's story didn't make sense. I finally asked for a polygraph out of the blue. This was actually for me...to force my mind to let go and put my questioning to rest. Ha! I got an avalanche of truth before the test!! He passed the test and was brought very low....really humbled. And he finally reached real remorse.

My WH has also listed all of the things he did to me and the price I have paid for his behavior. This is just a partial list: damaged my health by giving me an STD, endangered my children with the STD (he performed oral on her infected crotch...chlamydia can live in the mouth....I kiss my children), gave me PTSD and traumatized me, ruined intimacy with lies, completely broke trust, destroyed forever our innocent love (we were 19 and grew up together)....etc. It was a longer list but you get the point. I made him go over this list so he could really see the impact. The WS must hit BOTTOM for real change to happen within them. If your WW is trying to blame marital issues on her affair then she has not gotten it yet.

A polygraph is great. For us, it ended 2 years of lies and let me know exactly what and WHO I was reconciling with. It also made my WH see who he really was when it was all brought out into the light. Looking at the selfish, childish behavior that he displayed made him very ashamed and determined to never be that person again.

Wifehad5,

Yes, it is a very formal event. Before hand I tell her IC and my IC what I would like to know and in what detail. Edith then tells it all, in a very detailed fashion, from start to finish leaving out only details that I have chosen not to know. It is a way for my wife to take full accountability, from start to finish, of the choices and actions that she had made and done.

This is what many waywards do the moment of discovery. Unfortunately, Edith chose to continue the affair and double down on the lies and betrayal, gaslighting and blameshifting to such an extent that it nearly matches the pain and suffering I experienced from the affair itself.

I have taken some time off from SI to work on me and get some perspective. I attempted to withdrawal from Edith, not to do the 180, but to have some time alone to rebuild myself. This attempt was a failure in that Edith so desperately wanted me with her and I so eagerly sought her desire to comfort and console me, that it was very short lived.

I have been doing research and believe that she expresses symptoms of Borderline Personality Disorder (high functioning). This greatly explains so much of her behavior that I am astounded. It doesn't make the A or the betrayal feel any better, but the rage and defensiveness and blameshifting I understand better. We have chosen not to seek testing or diagnosis, but to go ahead with DBT therapy, which is said to be very effective in bringing the effects under her control.

I don't feel I need the disclosure. Edith desires it under the recommendation of her IC and our wonderful MC is very encouraging. From the way they explain it, it will help put the "discovery stage" in the past. I'm all over that, just so it's the truth and the full truth. I do feel I need a polygraph to confirm several points, one of which is the Monday Overnight with her BFF when the OM was in town. I need that. I also need to check out a couple other points that I find hard to believe and I want to verify that she hasn't broken NC.

Edith is starting the DBT therapy and I am doing EMDR therapy. We also both have IC's and a MC, so yeah, we are burning through a lot of cash. But not all we are working on is affair stuff, so I can't all attribute it to her choices.

While Edith isn't now the perfect remorseful WW, she is working hard on herself while working to keep her practice going and being a mom to 5 kids. It's a huge huge job and we are both straining to keep the ship afloat. She is no longer blaming me for the A. She is facing her "horrible choices" and with sorrow and sadness owning up to them. She has tremendous grief, regret, anxiety, and even, at times, remorse. She has taken a long time to come around.

Tush, I've got a good pair! They have made 5 wonderful, beautiful, smart, kind and moral children. They are, surprisingly, very calm and even tempered (like me!). I love them so, and yes they mean everything to me. I think I'm done having children, so I don't really need to grow any more... But you have always been there for me to stand up for myself, and I appreciate that. I am working on boundaries now that go beyond having to do with the affair and everything to do with having respect for myself as a father, husband, and man. There is behavior I will no longer tolerate and I will insist upon it or I will choose to remove or distance myself from them.

Rips, after the May 5th polygraph, she finally fell and started to show humility. It's been a process for her. Holding on to lies require you to justify holding those lies. That's were blameshifting and defensiveness will eat your soul. I have a feeling that there may be just a bit more, but I could be wrong. I'm going to check just to make sure. Without the first polygraph, I don't think I could have stayed married to her. She was horribly cruel to me during that time.

Regarding divorce. I am open and prepared to divorce Edith if she cheats on me again, just a little, or if she stops working on herself. I am just not prepared to go back to the way things were, even before the affair. I see that she had a boatload of resentment that she cultivated and cherished and used to badger and belittle. She was abusive to me emotionally, verbally, and physically as well as our children (to a lesser extent). The affair was just the capstone of a decade of abuse. I no longer will tolerate this. She knows this now and accepts that she must change.

The Oct 4th TT was bad too. We were both just weeping for an entire weekend and we are both nearly at rock bottom. When you hardly have any further to fall, everything looks like it's turning up.

Edith has resolved never to be that person again. She's said she is going to be the best wife anyone could hope for! I want to encourage her to be totally honest and genuine and sincere. I know she can do it! She used to be the best wife and she can be so again.

We need to finish this once and for all. We need to get it all out in the open and look at all it's ugliness and vile cruelty and just accept it as having happened. Set a course to fix what we think is broke in her (and me) and improve and get better.

Thanks again for all your thoughtful comments and please keep us in your prayers!

NP5

Slight t/j....

Tushnurse is spot on in her first post. It may have sounded harsh, but many of us who are aware of the OP and his story understand exactly why she said what she did. His wife has abused him...And their children..terribly. OP responds well...albeit a bit slow...to the much needed 2x4's. Some people require hugs and sugarcoated advice...which is fine....however...there are other members...long time members...who need the 2x4. Tushnurse has been nothing but supportive of this particular OP. I'm sure he would agree.

Husburned,

I yearn for the day we have done enough affair healing, so we can deal with the underlying problems in our marriage.

It is hard to set aside and ignore the HUGE elephant in the room to discuss marriage stuff, but it is worthwhile. Sometimes I think it is a distraction, and in the beginning Edith used it as such to blameshift, but I can see how it is giving us both hope to work on how we can improve us aside from the affair. Our MC has chosen to work on marriage stuff and pretty much shove aside the A--treat it as a symptom of brokenness. I believe it is a symptom of Edith's brokenness, not as a symptom of marriage issues. Even in a flat, dull, loveless marriages, the morality of the vows should still bind us to be faithful. The fact that she chose to have an affair to deal with HER ISSUES is not on me at all. It is not a function of marital disfunction, as I see it. So why would I go to a MC and expect them to fix it? If it wasn't caused by the marriage, then why would a marriage counselor address it?

I believe A stuff belongs in the IC realm. Her IC is to figure out how she got so screwed up and to fix her. My IC to figure out how I can recover, build me back up, establish healthy boundaries, and move on to be a healthy me, with or without her.

Confused, "...albeit a bit slow..." is an understatement. It took me forever. I'm just now getting around to the real work and bearing down on the issues.

It is hard to set aside and ignore the HUGE elephant in the room to discuss marriage stuff, but it is worthwhile. Sometimes I think it is a distraction, and in the beginning Edith used it as such to blameshift, but I can see how it is giving us both hope to work on how we can improve us aside from the affair. Our MC has chosen to work on marriage stuff and pretty much shove aside the A--treat it as a symptom of brokenness. I believe it is a symptom of Edith's brokenness, not as a symptom of marriage issues. Even in a flat, dull, loveless marriages, the morality of the vows should still bind us to be faithful. The fact that she chose to have an affair to deal with HER ISSUES is not on me at all. It is not a function of marital disfunction, as I see it. So why would I go to a MC and expect them to fix it? If it wasn't caused by the marriage, then why would a marriage counselor address it?

I believe A stuff belongs in the IC realm. Her IC is to figure out how she got so screwed up and to fix her. My IC to figure out how I can recover, build me back up, establish healthy boundaries, and move on to be a healthy me, with or without her.

Notperfect,

This is intriguing and hopeful. I know it's wishful thinking to wait until the A is fully dealt with before addressing marital issues.

But...

I'm avoiding working on the marital issues as long as we can, since:

1) I still see great temptation from my WW to blame her actions on others, especially me.

2) I am unprepared to address my tendency to not always squeeze out the sponge by the kitchen sink with the same ferocity of her affair and concomitant vilification campaign. I.e., I need to be a whole lot less angry to discuss marital issues, even though I'm fully aware I have contributed my half to them.

I suspect we will get to some period where addressing the marital issues can't wait for that distant glow over the hill of A resolution. I hope when that day comes, I will have sufficient strength and patience to address it objectively and with the positivity it deserves.

Welcome back brother.

Quick question. Why no formal diagnosis? Edith should jump at the chance. If not, that's another symptom that would fit your diagnosis. True BPD is extremely rare and VERY difficult to treat. Mostly because those suffering it CAN NOT admit there is an issue.

Strength

I agree that discussing problems in the marriage at this time is irrelevant at best and suggests it's related to the affair at worst. As long as you keep buying into it, she will keep selling it.

Why aren't you also discussing how the wear and tear of your last vehicle occurred that ultimately led to it's replacement? It makes as much sense to discuss problems in the marriage during a conversation about her affair.

The only thing that sounds meaningful is the poly. Edith has lied and lied and lied. I think what this meeting means for each of you is completely different, unfortunately. She's all about distraction with big elaborate scenes. It sounds like more bravado to convince you. I'm interested in her response to your poly request and the results from the poly.

I'm afraid there is a lot of puffery and distraction on her part. If she's not fully remorseful, this meeting will be for nought. She should be the one to take issue with marriage problems being mentioned during what is supposed to be a disclosure of her behavior. It's a red flag that she hasn't argued the relevancy. I get the feeling this meeting is to see if she can convince everyone involved without a complete commitment on her part.

Ok, dumb this way down for me.

You are 2 years into this and still don't have full disclosure. You say you don't require it and that this is all for her benefit. Did I catch that correctly?

There's going to be this formal "come to Jesus" and she's just going to magically tell you the whole truth, nothin' but the truth, so help her God, and after it's all done, you're going to say, "BTDubs Babe, I scheduled a poly. Just to make sure."

Is that right?

So what if she lies in this come to Jesus? What if there's another parking lot poly confession? Or she blows the poly entirely? Have you lined up your consequences on that? Are there any?

I just don't think she is anywhere near her rock bottom. "Almost" isn't there. It shouldn't take this whole production for her to say, "Yep, I did XYZ, on *this date*". The very fact she can't tell basic truth is extremely troubling.

Also, you mention that you believe her A is a product of her personal issues and nothing to do with the marriage. That's lovely. I'm glad you have that revelation. The big question is, does she? Does she really?

To piggyback off of 5454, if it's suspected she has a disorder, then a diagnosis is vital.

[This message edited by Aubrie at 1:40 PM, November 5th, 2015 (Thursday)]

I do feel I need a polygraph to confirm several points, one of which is the Monday Overnight with her BFF when the OM was in town. I need that

And then what, if she has lied again, what have you decided?

Do not let or allow her to mess up this polygraph with crying and sobbing.

You need to draw a line in the sand and stick to it, at least in your own mind. When is enough enough?

You should not let any type of mental diagnosis allow for an excuse, unless constant lying is acceptable. The affair is one thing, but the constant lying is another.

The affair already happened and quite a while ago, but the lying is always fresh and new.

NP,

For me, the continued TT and lying is the soul sucking part. TWO YEARS of your life? Wasted on her continued lying and going back to this AP (I don't know the whole story but gather this from your signature). You deserve so much better.

I know a lot of people on this board advocate the polygraph, but honestly, it's my opinion that once you need that device the relationship is already over. If you can't trust her to tell the truth now, after ALL this.. she's just not going to do it. For whatever reason. You can't change her.. all you can do is work on yourself and be the best you can be for your kids.

Actions that contributed to the Ill health of the marriage.. pardon my french but F that. Marital issues can't be dealt with until the trauma of the cheating has passed. You can't even THINK about discussing marital issues yet.. you are still discovering lies.

I feel for you. Being lied to sucks. It devalues, it makes you feel worthless. I am praying for you friend. Plan C is right being a single parent sucks. And divorce does affect the kids.. but living and modeling dysfunction isn't good either. Both roads (leaving or staying) present challenges. Neither are easy. Follow what is in your heart, and compass. Don't base things on who you WISH she was or who you HOPE she can be. Take off the rose colored glasses. To survive, you must do this.

Big hugs.

It is true that BPD's (high functioning) are invisible. They truly cannot face their mirror in that regard. Edith sees some of her actions in BPD behavior, I see much more. I'm not here to slap a label on her--There is a wide range of behaviors and no one size fits all here. She has rejected that label, as almost all high functioning BPD's do. That's why their invisible.

Would you see a crazy dentist? Would you send your kid to do a sleepover where the mom might threaten to commit suicide or rage uncontrollably or be abusive? Edith hasn't done these things when people are around, only when it's just us immediate family -- that's the high functioning BPD. They are so concerned about losing the intimacy and the closeness that they over control and chase away their loved ones through defensiveness and criticism in an all out effort to avoid being "discovered" as despairingly lonely. Affairs often occur as a result of them desperately seeking intimacy and enmeshment that no one person can fulfill. Thus bringing to pass her greatest fear--me leaving her. She has told me a number of times in the past, "My greatest fear is that you'll leave me." So I reply, "Then why did you do the one thing that would make me leave you!?!" Her reply is, "I don't know!!"

Is she BPD? I don't know, maybe. I'm just an engineer, ok? But I can read and see what the symptoms are and a lot of it is a match. I don't really care if she BPD, NPD, Bipolar, or just plain normal. I just want her to get the help she needs to get control of herself and work on being a safe and happy mom and wife.

She has agreed to do the therapy and that's what matters to me. GET. THE. HELP. It is supposedly highly effective. Without it, I'm done trying to fix us because it's just going to get worse and worse.

Also, the format of the disclosure is a standard format that our IC's use. Edith and I had no input into that.

Edith does now understand and readily admits that the affair is all on her. She's doing much better in that department. She is just so worried that I'll leave her that I think she's clinging on to a few last things so as to not send me over the edge. She doesn't realize that it's those last few things (I think) outstanding that I need before we can move forward and get better.

Yes, it's been 2 years of A and TT. 2 years of my life gone, never to return and thank God--I could not go through it again.