SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

...as with all cheaters she is first and for most devastated about losing her perks, entitlements and benefits of the marriage not so about hurting her husband.

You don't know that.

I'm going to agree with ImGoneBytheDown on this.

His point is exactly what we mean when we talk about regret vs remorse. There is regret for loss of the AP, getting caught, getting in trouble, etc. But remorse is realizing the pain that you caused the other person.

I see nothing controversial in IGBD's statement.

I agree with you and normally, the remorse doesn't set in immediately. It takes sometime of work and witnessing the devastation in the betrayed one to get to that point. As you say what I mentioned and explained fits into it. I even didn't say as many others he should divorce I just say whatever he does and especially if he choses to reconcile he must just understand and adress those problems. His wife too and for her it's more important. That's all

Her intentions were evil in nature.

That is a broad statement, evil, I dont think so.

Her intention was to do something different, cross boundaries and hopefully not get caught.

I believe evil intentions are purposely done to hurt others. She did NOT have an affair to purposely hurt her husband.

I believe evil intentions are purposely done to hurt others. She did NOT have an affair to purposely hurt her husband.

For something to be evil, it can be either an active (= on purpose) or a passive (= being callous or don't give a shit about anything and any outcome) intention. Passive aggressive behavior can be also evil; neglect and withdrawal of affection is abuse. By the way, by the description of her personality (he described her as being "also a very stand-offish person, who people find hard to approach") she may fit very well into all of those categories. Evil is not defined by the active or passive element of it but merely by the intention and other things, whether it is active or passive. Whether she was just callous or some more active narcissist is irrelevant. The fact that the intention was and the impact was evil says everything. Everything else is minimization, gas lighting, rug sweeping and so on.

If she hadn’t evil intentions but would at that time of the affair be guided let's say by compassion and loving kindness towards her husband instead of an stand offish and arrogant behavior, she wouldn't have cheated by definition and wouldn't be able to do so. To understand it is not a matter of reading minds; it's simply a matter of being honest with oneself. It ain't easy for anyone of us to do this as it is very often hard to admit we were fooled and hurt to such extent by the person we loved and cared for selflessly. Yet, as to the betrayed one to truly heal, to trully be able of forgiveness, to truly reach the point of letting go and succesfully reconcilling the marriage it is crucial to admit that this happened; as to the betraying party it is crucial to understand it, to truly get it, as to the damage done to the betrayed one and from here to true and genuine remorse.

[This message edited by ImGoneByTheDown at 1:46 PM, December 23rd (Wednesday)]

man, this thread is a trigger. a lot of emotions and a lot of good advice.

there seems to be patterns that most wayward spouses follow. the trickle truth, the crying, and blame shifting. this story is a bit different. MrsRedbaron did some cruel acts.

if i was a forgiving type of person:

i'd demand for total transparency. all website passwords, all computer and cell phone passwords.

i'd demand a polygraph test.

i'd demand STD checks.

i'd demand no contact with the other man.

i'd never allow her to have male "friends."

i personally would not drink to excess any more. EVER!

there'd be no more couples sleep overs or couples vacations.

it would be a long time before i'd trust her out on the town drinking by herself.

but honestly i feel there is a burner phone somewhere. i feel there are other men. the ease and cruelty she displayed in fucking their friend is gut wrenching. no way this was her first "fling." they purposely made sure Redbaron and the other man's wife drank to excess and passed out. notice they did not. they stayed sober enough to plan the fuck sessions and go through with them. the whole situation was crafted to allow them to fuck during the parties.

whether or not RedBaron stays with his wife or not is up to him. redbaron, if you listen to any advice... listen to this one... stop drinking so much.

She is sorry and remorseful as I said earlier, but she is also working on her part by reading, counseling, researching, both about the deep rooted problem that led to this and about how to fix it going forward. She appears very empathetic towards me, and when she talks she quite clearly understands how I feel, the gravity of what she has done and she only gives reasons when I probe, otherwise she is clear that its a crime she committed and she did it because she wanted to and was easily able to suppress her guilt towards me and its simple as that.

It does sound like she is doing everything she should be doing to help you heal. If you can or not is up to you if you can.

The fact she was able to suppress the guilt is called compartmentalizing. Some people have that ability and usually learn it, along with lying at an early age. Usually a defensive reason to hide the truths.

You said that they had not communicated in 6 months, yet you caught them in November, that makes me wonder if they are communicating another way. 6 months was July and yet you caught them together in November.

Continue reading and going to therapy and see how your emotions feel when the shock starts to wear off more so.

She is willing to do a polygraph test,

What is the test for?

It can't be to see if she was having sex.

To see if she wanted to be caught and have you divorce her? that is the question to ask her. She always did it to where you were close by.

so what questions do you need to ask her?

If she loved the other guy?

She did it because married life was boring her?

She wants other men to come on to her so she can have sex?

To see if she wanted to be caught and have you divorce her? that is the question to ask her. She always did it to where you were close by.

Her actions after getting caught pretty much show this was not an exit affair.

I think one important question would be, were there any other guys.

The polygraph test is NOT to determione if she had sex with OM. It is to determine if she is telling the truth that it was only the four times, which most of us do not believe. And that does matter because the truth matters.

And the second reason is to detemone if she needede "excitement" with any other men he does not know about.

And the polygraph test is to see if she comes up with more TT before it even gets done.

Red Baron, SCHEDULE THE TEST IF SHE SAYS SHE IS WILKLING TO TAKE IT.

I know we are not supposed to focus on the pos om. But again, while I am not violent, if somehow your foot connected with his balls in a vicious swing, accidents do happen. Your betrayal is a double betrayal. At some point you need justice. Definitely coordinating with the obs is important. You need to know who pursued whom. This is very important. If she did it, then in my mind, it's a guarantee that she has done this before. You need to know how this started. What is the status of the OM? Was it just sex? An affair? Are there feelings involved? That pos om has answers that you need. I also think the status of the other marriage is important too. The way this has been written is that it is just pure sex, just for the supposed thrill of it. diabolical and wretched for sure. I read somewhere that in affairs, the male BS is often consumed by the actual sex in the relationship and female BS are more bothered by the emotional component (heck, it all bothers me ) However, if is it just purely a sexual act, is this something you can live with? It really sounds like a midlife crisis.

ummm hammering the OM 6 feet from your tent is evil IMO

I again agree with Imgone.

Look He needs to think this over, the OP does. It's a pretty bad betrayal.

BTW, he described her as closed off initially. So what does being closed off to do brazen things mean ??? Something is broken there or hidden..

Just saying ........

Drop the word evil, that is total nonsense.

That pos om has answers that you need.

Don't bet that he will be honest at all. In fact his lies could confuse you more.

I read somewhere that in affairs, the male BS is often consumed by the actual sex in the relationship and female BS are more bothered by the emotional component

That is true, and if this is some kind of midlife crisis, it is doubtful your wife had any feelings for him at all, it was all about the something new.

And that is something she needs to figure out, be honest about and then you can see if you can deal with this.

RedBaron

Never do this:

Drop the word evil, that is total nonsense

as the only nonsense is rug sweeping her behavior and letting her escape her deeds with the self proclaimed princess syndrome that among many others led her to cheating and that will leave her with that wicked and vile mindset as it was. Stand your ground and let her work hard to step higher to your level and never do the other thing of stooping low to hers. If you want a true reconciliation she must adjust herself to your level; not you to hers. Everything else is rug sweeping

I don't know how many times she had sex with POS, the poly will tell this but from what she's said according to you so ALL THE FOUR TIMES WERE DONE AND CONSUMED WHERE YOU AND OTHER BS WERE NEAR TO THEM AND COULD AS WELL AS CAUGHT THEM AT THE END. THIS IS HUNDRED PERCENT OF THE TIMES and hundred percent of time (even less) is not coincidence; it was done on purpose and planned. It's not only the fact she did it when you were aside to her but she did this always

It's not a mistake, it's even not evil but this is the highest and most heinous expression of evil a betrayer can inflict upon his partner. Don't delude yourself as to your wife's true nature RIGHT NOW. She's not that princess and if she wants to be with you as with all mental syndromes let her heal from this - not rug sweeping it. She can change what she is right now and become a decent person, yet with both of you rug sweeping it, it will not be possible.

Remember and remind yourself about the basic truth I said in the beginning of your thread: we are what we think; everything we are arises within our thoughts; with our thoughts we make the world". This is the mindset, the narative and the perceptions that are at the root cause and level of her cheating as everything inlcuding our actions are stemming from the mind. This is what she needs to changed and to replace her old and wicked mindset as well as the vile narative and evil perceptions with healthy ones. Without that she would never be hunderd percent safe and she might fall back into bad actions and behavior as the old mindset could kick in unless she has challenged and changed that

[This message edited by ImGoneByTheDown at 9:34 AM, December 24th (Thursday)]

Reading your story was like a punch in the stomach for me. I can almost feel your pain. So many people cheat that many folks thinks we should just not get so freaked out about it and accept the fact that it's nearly impossible for people to stay faithful. To them I give my middle finger. Most men cannot accept sharing their wife - not once - and accepting that "its hard" to be faithful is a ridicules concept.

We do not have children

We are both work and both are at pretty decent jobs,not any significant joint assets; so we are financially quite independent

Divorce her right now as fast as legally possible. Don't waste one more day or one more tear on her - it's simply not worth it. No one is worth all the tears and painful work that trying to reconcile takes, but if you had children it would probably be worth an honest try. But that's not the case here - and you've already observed that you could go through all of this pain and end up divorcing her anyway.

Right now your whole world has been turned upside down. I know what it's like and I know how desperate you might be to do whatever it takes just to get things back to normal. You might be desperate enough to convince yourself that you can forgive her and hope that time will heal your wound. You might try to convince yourself that she won't want a man's attention and desire next year and start all of this shit all over again. If you ask her she'll say that she would never do it again and she's so sorry and she feels horrible and all of that bullshit, but the fact is that she is a cliche. A woman getting a little older who wants to prove to herself she can still attract men. She wanted all of the breathless thrills of sex with someone else right under your nose. And before any of this happened she would have told you just what she's telling you now - that she would never do anything like this. Never.

No kids. No messy financial entanglements. Putting yourself through all this drama for one more second is masochism. End all contact with her and divorce her.

[This message edited by theDrifter at 6:42 PM, December 23rd (Wednesday)]

i'd like to change what theDrifter wrote:

from: You might try to convince yourself that she won't want a man's attention and desire next year and start all of this shit all over again.

to: you might try to convince yourself that she won't want another man's cock in her and desire his ejaculate and start this shit all over again.

She wanted all of the breathless thrills of sex with someone else right under your nose.

divorce her and let her have her fill of cheap thrills. these affairs rarely last. my ex moved in with one of her affair partners. they cheated on each other and split in an ugly separation. not until MrsRedbaron experiences the empty and lonely life of fucking around will she truly understand the depth of her damage to you and your marriage.

real happiness is where you find someone who will laugh with you when times are good. she will cry with you and offer a shoulder when times are bad. happiness is when you and your wife share dreams and protect each other from nightmares. happiness is trust. happiness is that tender kiss at bed time and the hug before leaving for work. it's a smile that is for you and you alone.

MrsRedbaron proved she is none of this.

damn Redbaron, there are a lot of people on these forums who experienced the pain of betrayal. this is a pretty hardened bunch. to see this kind of response should tell you something.

Very sorry for ur double betrayal TRB

I have to agree with Mybiggestmistake's post. Ur wife cheating has many awful aspect, she made a double cheating also the way she betrayed you shows how damaged she is.

I think that she has a lot of issues to fix them , make ur priority for the now is urself and ur own healing. Let her work on herself and fix herself , to cheat u in this way showed a lot of her true character .

Wish u the best dear

to: you might try to convince yourself that she won't want another man's cock in her and desire his ejaculate and start this shit all over again.

WTF is wrong with you people?

The OP comes here saying he is shattered beyond words, and reeling from these mind images, and you are figuratively grabbing his head and forcing him to stare at them while you piss on his wife, a person that you don't actually know but already completely hate, but that he still inevitably has feelings for.

Is that really what he needs at this moment? Really?

RedBaron, you will make it through this. Carve your own path. Take care of yourself. Eat, drink, talk with friends, keep your life going.

Sending strength!!!

She has zero respect and love for you as a partner. That's the only way she could do what she did so callously. It makes me flinch for you and it makes me angry for you. My advice, you don't need that in your life.

WTF is wrong with you people?

The OP comes here saying he is shattered beyond words, and reeling from these mind images, and you are figuratively grabbing his head and forcing him to stare at them while you piss on his wife, a person that you don't actually know but already completely hate, but that he still inevitably has feelings for.

I agree and the language used in many of these posts is exactly what is chasing away the BS that just found out.

It is not helpful in any way...

Nosmilesleft -

RedBaron,

I am so sorry you are here. What a blow. Please, please take care of yourself. Please eat, sleep, exercise. See a doctor for sleep aids or anti-anxiety mess if you need them. I did.

Look, you've already gotten a great deal of good advice. And please try and ignore some of the harshness of some folks in their posts. Emotions can run high here. Still tough to hear though.

A few things I wanted to point out.

1) A polygraph test is a must. Frankly, I find it difficult to believe they only got together times in 9 months. My wife's affair last 3 months but her and POS had sex 20+ times. Be prepared for a revision to this. But as others have said, the poly is less about information and more about honesty and transparency. In order to do what she did for nine months, your wife had to lie to you through omission for that period of time. If you are seriously considering reconciling with her, then openness and honesty is a must and unfortunately you don't know if you have that with her right now. People who cheat lie. Simple as that. She may have noble reasons she tells herself like trying to spare you from pain, or it may be simple self preservation, but lying is common. Parking lot confessions are also very common.

2) Your wife did not have an affair. This is troubling. Many wayward spouses get lost in the fog of the affair with feelings of love, etc. she didn't. This was calculated. She wanted the excitement and thrill of high risk sex. I'm so sorry, and as gently as I can, this means that the thrill of doing this was more important to her than her marriage. She was willing to risk it all for this. That is very telling. It's a punch to the solar plexus to hear, and it's something I still struggle with frankly, but that's what it was. A decision to cheat, damn the consequences. I'm so sorry.

3) Remorse vs regret. Red - your wife is not yet remorseful. She is terrified. She got caught and now she might lose you. So she'll do whatever you want her to and whatever she thinks will help ensure you do not leave her. Remorse means understanding the pain that you are going through and that she was the cause of that pain. Remorse is not about her and her crying. It's about you. It's about doing whatever she can to help heal you. Finding herself and going to IC is important for her.. But making sure you get what you need is paramount.

4) I would stop going to marriage counseling. You are not there yet. You both need individual therapy. MC can come later.

5) Evil - No, your wife is not evil. Just very very selfish. Her personal need for excitement trumped everything else that was important to her. While some could not handle what she did, only what you can deal with counts. But of course the question is why wasn't what she had enough? Or if she needed more, why didn't she communicate that with you and instead looked elsewhere? That could be why some are questioning the number of times or the nature of this. How do you know it wasn't a full blown affair? Because she told you? Sorry, new rule of belonging to this club - don't trust and verify. Yes, the one person who was supposed to have your back in everything is now no longer trustworthy. Sucks. But there it is. A polygraph will help determine the nature of this and whether it was high risk sex a few times or something more.

Please take care of you. Keep posting. Unfortunately we've been there. You are not alone in this.

Best.

-W