SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Dear Red Baron,

I'm so sorry that you find yourself here. You are very articulate and it seems clear that you are seeking to understand or explain what is essentially unexplainable to those of us on the receiving end who would not, could not have considered doing this to our spouse.

From the way you described your delight in your relationship from the outset, your wife took an unimaginable risk with something very precious.

I echo other posters who encourage you to take what you need from our well-intentioned posts, and leave the rest.

We've all been betrayed and felt the deep, raw pain. And we each have our own ways of dealing with the betrayal as we work to rebuild our lives.

I highly recommend individual counselling. For me, while it didn't change my circumstances, it was very helpful as sort of a steam valve -- letting me get everything I was feeling out and come up with strategies to move forward.

Time will be your greatest friend and your worst enemy. You WILL be okay and things will get easier to handle as you move forward. Unfortunately, it just has to be gotten through and it can seem like you will never be at peace again. But you will.

Just take care of yourself day to day, at this point. Don't feel pressured to make any significant long-term decisions right now. In fact, may be best to put off the big decisions until your emotions have stabilized.

Best to you, Red Baron.

I've been reading books, articles, research papers, journals and forums; on human psychology, researches on the mindsets of people who cheat, surveys, personal experiences of people like you folks here, and their findings etc. I can see the why of it, and the psychological profile of people who become like that due to childhood problems and complexes. But I still did not deserve what came my way.

Red Baron

Do not spend a lot of time or energy trying to figure out why your wife did it. You might as well put a bank robber on a couch for psychoanalysis. Why did they rob the bank with all the money in it? Answer: It was exciting, they liked the money and everything was great until they were caught. Now that they’re facing years in prison they are sincerely upset with themselves and wish they had never started robbing banks.

I know she hates herself for destroying all the good she had for some excitement, but I can see how she senses the huge loss too, have seen her up at night crying and or just sitting in the living room staring at space.

Red Barron

Yes. Just like a bank robber thinking about going to jail.

Your wife is not broken. That’s a copout. She’s normal and thought what you didn’t know wouldn’t hurt you.

I could be wrong but I think she is basically telling you the truth.

She was (and still is) an exceptionally attractive woman, but also a very stand-offish person, who people find hard to approach (but love dearly once they know).

Red Baron

Even though she’s attractive she’s doesn’t have guys trying to pick her up very often. She and the other man (OM) were around each other all the time. He got to know her and was very comfortable with her. It probably started out as naughty fun. He pinched her butt when they were right in front of you and his wife.

I got up to piss, and saw the two of them having sex on the ground, less than six feet away from my tent.

Red Baron

Then it became a game to see how much they could get away with. They were even discussing their score (three times before, this makes it four). The fear of getting caught and the risk taking added to the excitement. Hence the quickies when their spouses were around. A hotel room wouldn't be as much fun.

It was also great fun to act normal knowing their little secret when the four of you were together.

Basically it was free fun until she was caught. The other guy was safe because was in a good marriage too and would never leave his wife. She was planning to grow old with you and would have carried on with him for years if not caught.

I have noticed that this happens to women about 40 even in very happy marriages. This is especially true if they have or are about to have an empty nest. They give the reasons your wife stated. Basically it’s fun to know that they still have it.

http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=552588

Read the above thread by SpaceGhost. He has a great deal in common with you. It’s long so you might just read SpaceGhost’s posts.

To her credit, she did not deny anything, accepted the facts and did not even make excuses.

Red Baron

How much credit should she get? You told her that you saw her having sex and overheard that they had sex three other times.

She admitted that they had sex four times. So what? What would she have done if you told her that you think she might be having an affair? Would she have freely admitted to having sex with him four times?

Your wife is only sorry because she got caught and the affair is no longer free. If you're guilty you don't discuss how your score just went up by one. You're ashamed of it.

Then, in late November this year, we arranged a camping trip to celebrate the guy’s birthday.

Red Baron

Ask your wife if they arranged the camping trip so that she could give him his birthday present.

[This message edited by Graywolf at 7:06 PM, December 22nd (Tuesday)]

They seemed to take particular delight in carrying on this affair right under your nose, sometimes almost literally. To do it in your home or right outside your tent where you could (and did) catch them at any time shows an almost evil level of disrespect.

It seems your wife was almost a goddess in your eyes, so I know this is a particularly brutal thing for you. Believe me, I haven't posted my story here yet, but I know very, very well what you are feeling. I will never forget what I saw and heard with my own eyes and ears.

About the things she has told you, I have no idea what is true and what is not. By her own admission she has betrayed you for nine months, and usually did it in a time and place where you could have discovered her at any moment and suffered the devastation you are now feeling. From the outside looking in, there seems to be more cruelty involved than excitement. Most people would find that situation nerve wracking to the point it would take most of the joy out of it. The fact that she liked this is extremely troubling.

I have no answers for you. I think you've gotten good advice here. I do think it is important to realize that you will never look at her the same, and remember if you do try to reconcile, it won't be with your goddess. It will be with that woman you saw outside the tent that night. That's tough. I wish you peace and strength.

(Edited to remove a phrase that could have been painful to the OP)

[This message edited by CuckNo at 5:59 PM, December 22nd (Tuesday)]

Sorry you are here. This is one of those brazen, vile stories that stuns the senses. I don't think they have had sex only 4 times. NO WAY! She's a lying pos. The biggest redflags are doing the act while they can both be discovered. That tent one is beyond cold. It's almost as if she does not think of you as a person. Didn't care if she got caught. I try not to say this but seriously? This is a violent, act designed to punish you somehow. it's an absolute attack against your manhood. I don't say that lightly; believe me, I am a woman but this act is an act of great aggression against you. You put her on a pedestal and she thinks you'll forgive anything. Want to bet she doesn't think you are capable of leaving her? She knows she was your whole world. I bet she thought no matter what, you are never leaving her. With all due apologies, she's a fucking bitch and while I don't condone violence. She should get a real 2x4! And the OM? Whatever happened to him? She's hot, huh? well, maybe you're dealing with a narcissist who is going through a midlife crisis. Something weird happens to beautiful women when we hit the late 30's. I am telling you this because I am quite beautiful. It has been something that was a blanket for years. When I hit 35, I became very insecure. Needed validation. to my great credit, I never cheated. Just found other outlets (like building my brain getting a phd). She's going through a midlife crisis. And for the record? she's a dumbass. 35+ divorcee aint so hot! Big mistake on her part. Huge. You on the other hand, will find a woman and we love the sob stories of how to mend your heart. Take your time. You deserve better and you should know it.

[This message edited by Biggestmistake at 4:59 PM, December 22nd (Tuesday)]

Biggestmistake

you spoke truth when you posted:

And for the record? she's a dumbass. 35+ divorcee aint so hot! Big mistake on her part. Huge.

from my observations over the years:

there are only two types of men who would pursue this woman. 1) a predator who sees an easy lay. 2) an insecure man who can't seem to get out of the cycle of abuse.

a decent guy would see her as damaged goods and move on. even if she was stunning she isn't worth the effort to build a relationship with. she has a record of being a cheat. and has no problem emasculating the man she is with.

You put her on a pedestal and she thinks you'll forgive anything. Want to bet she doesn't think you are capable of leaving her? She knows she was your whole world. I bet she thought no matter what, you are never leaving her.

Biggestmistake

Listen to this.

I can see the why of it, and the psychological profile of people who become like that due to childhood problems and complexes. But I still did not deserve what came my way.

yup. Often the BS goes through a frantic effort to determine the "why", with I think a secret hope that maybe a really good "why" exists out there which will make it all tolerable and rational.

The "why" doesn't exist that can ease the pain.

She wanted to and she did, and that is the beginning and the end of it ultimately. She even told you this. It is one of mankind's oldest stories too. Happens thousands of times a day.

Keep posting, RedBaron. It helps.

Wow! Just Wow!

The response here is literally overwhelming.

I am so so thankful to all of you good people who have taken time from their lives to reply here, and to help a complete stranger; thank you for your kind words and your advice, it is so valuable to me at this point.

These 3 pages are filled such amazing insight, advice, guidance and some very very important questions, that need to be answered and ones that I need to ask myself, and my wife.

I would hope to reply to everyone, but that's not going to be possible, so I will try to reply step by step here to as much as I can, and seek futher support and advice:

We do not have children

We are both work and both are at pretty decent jobs,not any significant joint assets; so we are financially quite independent

We have already started Counseling, both independent and together

I have already gotten the three books recommended here (already had as my counselor suggested those before I came here)

I have checked in detail, there is no contact between the two of them, and there really has not been any communication in the past 6 months also. I am a techie and I checked thoroughly. So the part that it only happened when it apparently die happen appears to be holding true for now.

My wife clearly recognizes that she crossed a boundary for reasons she has never crossed that boundary before, and that it signifies an issue that must be explored and addressed with an expert, she is taking that step

She is sorry and remorseful as I said earlier, but she is also working on her part by reading, counseling, researching, both about the deep rooted problem that led to this and about how to fix it going forward. She appears very empathetic towards me, and when she talks she quite clearly understands how I feel, the gravity of what she has done and she only gives reasons when I probe, otherwise she is clear that its a crime she committed and she did it because she wanted to and was easily able to suppress her guilt towards me and its simple as that.

There are many obvious reasons why I want to leave, no need to restate those. But there is one reason why I have not done that, I am not clear yet that is the choice, and I feel if there is any hope of recovery and rebuilding, no matter how hard, I will take it, that is if I decide that is the right path for me to take.

ImGoneByTheDown asked

2.Which qualities did she shows besides of remorse and beginning to get it (if it is relevant) that made you believe she has a true and genuine chance at transformation

My answer; she has shown to me understanding of what she has done, of how it makes me feel, of how wrong it is, of the damage cause and what she has destroyed. She is making no excuses and fully takes the blame, the reasoning she gives, she fully admits are just small factors and not causes and never a justification, and that there is no justification.

Here's where I ask for your help; what other behavior am I looking for? what other actions and steps can she be taking to show me? I am obviously new to this and a complete mental wreck right now, so please don't mind if my question seems naive.

I don't have any social pressures or any external factors as such that can greatly effect my decision to stay or leave, it is totally upto me. I have been considering all sorts of scenarios, all equally hard for me personally, so that is not a factor. I will make an informed choice once I have healed more, been better guided by the counseling we are undertaking, perhaps be the wiser seeing her actions and behavior during this time and of course be the wiser for the amazing advice and insight you fellows offer.

I have to say I did not reply to this because I am such an emotional roller coaster, I had to carefully chose a time when I am more emotionally stable and mentally lucid so I can do justice to the efforts you all have put in here.

ImGoneByTheDown wrote

7. Like in a business approach this topic with a probability test and risk management. Try to put your emotions aside. It's a cold calculation at that point; like a SWOT matrix and analysis in an intelligence gathering and decision making process. Consider what is the probability, what are the risks and what are your strengths, her weaknesses, the opportunities involved and the potential threats you're exposed and respectively are involved in each project, whether it's reconciliation or divorce. Make informed decisions!

This here is exactly how I am trying to do it.

She is willing to do a polygraph test, and as one of the books suggested, she is already writing for me a complete timeline of events. I have told her I will validate it over a polygraph.

In the end, the reason why I search for the causes and the 'why' and the 'how' is because I think that unless that can be known and addressed, there is no hope, and if there is no hope then what is the point of anything?

As you all here understand and have said, I am emotionally raw, sometimes I think why am I even bothering? Sometimes I think why can I not build something even better? You know, conflicting thoughts, among the unbearable pain and hurt, the feeling that the person I had blind and absolute faith in, and a friend that a trusted, got together and stabbed me in the back for so long ....

Thank you all so much for the amazing support and insights. I will keep drawing on it for a long time I think. Thank you.

Here's where I ask for your help; what other behavior am I looking for?

Usually the actions required start with a specific list -- NC (no contact), honesty, transparency and IC/MC. It sounds like you have that covered.

Then it moves to wanting to see remorse. Not just regret of being caught, but real empathy for the pain that has been caused. It seems like you are off to a reasonable start here as well.

To take it deeper, it is the search for "Why?" That is extremely important. Especially with the level of betrayal and some of the actions that were so aggressively disrespectful to you, you will want an answer that makes you believe that she has a good grasp on what allowed her to cheat. That will be followed by extensive work on addressing her character gap so that you feel she could be a safe partner.

Finally, it all comes down to your core needs. For me, it is that I need to be loved and respected within my marriage. Everything written above can be summarized by those needs. Adhering to my requests, showing remorse, figuring out why she cheated are all displays of love and respect.

Having been through a double betrayal, what that looks like is a wife who does everything she can to repair the damage she caused, continues to work on making herself a safe partner and lovingly cares about me given the lingering effects of the wounds I received (e.g. PTSD). As long as I can look back over time and see positive improvement, I continue to believe that offering the gift of reconciliation is a worthwhile move.

I can't say it any better than Crushed has just stated. Ultimately, it is going to be consistent actions over time from your wife that will help to rebuild trust.

There is nothing wrong in wanting to reconcile. There is nothing wrong in wanting to divorce. What IS WRONG is to jump on either path as long as (1) you are uncertain what you want in the future, and (2) your wife is doing what needs to be done.

Infidelity is trauma. There are no short-cuts. It has to be absorbed and processed...no matter what the eventual outcome. Cheating in itself is pure disrespect for their partner, but yours even goes to a darker level. She really needs to dig deep into that aspect. And you need to decide....after you have let this settle in....what you REALLY want from a relationship---and if your wife is capable of giving this to you.

This is one of the most egregious betrayals I have read in a long time. There are some seriously horrific ones to compare to but wow.

I know you are looking for answers and actions. But I wonder...is there anything she could say? Any answer on a polygraph? Any amount of crying? That can explain what she is. Not just what she did. What she IS?

Because what she is is someone who gets her thrills not just from having sex with another. But doing it in your house, with you there. That is a special kind of evil. Dont kid yourself about that fact. No amount of introspective naval gazing can explain away that evil. Can a person wired for that kind of sick thrill seeking ever really empathize? Does she even have the ability to understand that level of emasculation? And even if she could, what difference would it make?

You made her your world. She knew that. She exploited it. The power she must have felt over you during those months.

I would suggest you now try to take an emotional step back. Make YOU the center your world. Do you really want to spend the rest of your life with those mind movies? Playing warden, checking on her constantly? Wondering if she is just white knuckling it until the opportunity presents itself again?

There is a world of women out there that would kill to have someone cherish them the way you did with your wife. That will love and respect you the way you deserve. My 2 cents, go find one.

Once you have the timeline and the polygraph then you will have the truth. Once you have the truth then you can setup to make a non emotional decision. This may include her moving out for a few months so that the room can stop spinning on you.

Nobody would blame you for ending it. This was an awful one. The guy was getting a thrill off of cuckolding you, it is obvious and she was playing right along (and perhaps encouraging) it.

Red Baron

I do not have much to add to what the other wise folks have told you, but I do think the ONE positive thing for you here is that she has told you

"I did it for the excitement and fun'

You hav e avoided all the blame shifting and re-creating of your marital life or being told she cheated because you let the dog piss on the floor too often.

The bad part is either she is the personality type that would like to hand feed sharks for excitement or is plumb CRAZY AND CRUEL, because if it is true, and I am not sure I believe that, that they only fucked four times, it appears all of them were where either it would be easy for you to catch them or for someone else to catch them.

To me, that is a big big problem, but you have to make your owne choice.

I may have missed it, and if so I apologize, but iis the BW of the OM staying with him or divorcing him??? If they are also trying to R, you need to become "best friends" with her to make sure you have two sets of eyes on these two waywards.

With no kids, you have a lot of choice that many find harder to make because of kids. That is in your favor.

But learn you lesson. You two got way too close to this other couple to the point that it at first seemde to me like I was going to read that you all were in a group marriage. Nothnig wrong with having close friends but this obviously got way too close.

Good luck, and do the polygraph, and since she has such trouble with her impulsiveness, reserve the right to repeat it any time you want to.

I was in constant touch with her, but she has left for home for some time. But we have been comparing notes all the time, passing any new information to the other one etc.

She is also undecided yet, but we have been good friends, and have done nothing wrong, plus we are victims of this together, so we both plan to help each other through this as much as one can from the outside.

She is also undecided yet, but we have been good friends, and have done nothing wrong, plus we are victims of this together,

wrong. you are the victim here. she is the predator. she wronged you by having an affair. she wronged you by doing it in such an evil way that those of us who have been betrayed are in shock. for me, after many decades on this earth that says quite a bit.

if she is undecided, then she is still seeing the other man or men? dude, file for divorce. she is priming you to be a cuckold. unless you are willing to share her with any man that strikes her fancy file for divorce.

Sometimes I think why can I not build something even better?

the wife you thought you had is no longer there. that's why. she fucked another man in front of you, she fucked another man in your home while you were there. dude, there is nothing fixable here.

[This message edited by nosmilesleft at 7:10 AM, December 23rd (Wednesday)]

Nomilesleft, you've misread RedBaron's post.

You said this

wrong. you are the victim here. she is the predator. she wronged you by having an affair.

But this

She is also undecided yet, but we have been good friends, and have done nothing wrong, plus we are victims of this together

was about the OBS, not his WW.

She has a job, she can talk with him when she's there. She could have a burner phone. There are a ton of apps that show no phone logs. There could be no way for anyone to know whether or not they are communicating. It may be she is not still in touch. But there is no way you could know. The fact that you feel so sure about her not having contact with him and your tech skills gives me pause.

They just had sex in late November. You see no communications between them for the last six months. I know they see each other a lot, but if they were friends wouldn't you expect at least some communication between them? Maybe you know the answers, but a lot about this story does not make cheater sense to me.

Your wife is not broken. That’s a copout. She’s normal and thought what you didn’t know wouldn’t hurt you.

I'll have to go with "having sex just outside the tent where hubby is sleeping" as being "far from normal."

I wouldn't say "broken," though. I'd go with "evil." She had to be trying to get caught to do things like that, or screwing on the balcony just outside the rooms of BOTH betrayed spouses.

That's pretty fucked up, right there.

[This message edited by setecastronomy at 7:46 AM, December 23rd (Wednesday)]

I believe you described 4 events? Each and every one in a situation where the risk of getting caught was extremely high. That obviously brings up a couple of questions.

Why we're there no other events where they could *enjoy* each other's company? (Less risk of being caught)

She claims to have needed the validation, why has there been N/C for the last 6 months outside of the sex?

Is she really sticking with *I Did It for the excitement* without any blame on you? (Extremely rare)

I tend to be VERY pro R if there are children involved. Not necessarily for them, but it's an added incentive. Having said that, I'm wondering what HER incentive is to stay?

ICaughtThem

thank you for pointing this out. my emotion got the better of me. this story is a tough one.

my apologies to redbaron.