SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

doneGone:

I have created more problems than I have solved. I never expected to be answering questions that belong to Wishes. I will say that we did not open our marriage in any way.

I'm glad you didn't open the marriage.

HurtButHopeful?

Who was this abusive person you brought into Wishes' life when your marriage was still very good?

How did he inflict emotional, physical and psychological abuse on her?

Were you aware of it at the time? Why did you allow it?

Did Wishes protest and stop the abuse?

Did you?

DoneGone:

These are incredibly perceptive questions but I do not think I have enough wisdom to answer them without making the situation worse.

Why does it take wisdom to answer simple questions?

Let me just say, and hopefully it is enough. I encouraged her strongly, very strongly, to have a familial relationship with a close relative who had inflicted great damage on her in the past.

Why did you encourage her to have a relationship with a person who had abused her in the past? Who was this person? How had they abused her?

Over a period of 8 months, this person continued the abuse to the point that Wishes was seeing a therapist, on meds and losing her health.

Did you know this person had resumed abusing her? During those 8 months, did they abuse her the same ways as before? Physical, Emotional, Psychological? If the answer is "Yes" did you try to intervene? How? Why didn't Wishes say, "NO!" She was an adult, had adult children. Surely she had gained some adult skills to protect herself.

I just did not see it and although I didn't ignore her pleas for help, I basically reinforced that she could do this. She did, but she couldn't. She did come out of the situation damaged. I have no desire to speak in riddles.

You didn't see the abuse, yet you didn't ignore her pleas for help. Sounds like a riddle. Please explain.

How did she plead for help?

Hopefully this is enough to convince you that Wishes was not well at the time of her affair. I am the last to excuse her but I do have a little more understanding now.

It is beginning to sound like you are making excuses for Wishes. She has convinced you that it is your fault her relative abused her the months proceeding her first texting EA with the coworker.

She has convinced you that her EA and her later PA were due to her being "damaged" by her abusive relative, and it is your fault for encouraging her to continue that relationship with the relative.

I am beginning to understand. She is rewriting marital history now. While she takes responsibility for the actual affair, and says she loved the "power" she got from it, she is now not taking responsibility for it because she says you were a monster and she was damaged prior to starting it.

Why do you and your wife blame you for the relative's abuse?

Wishes is incredibly angry with you, and both of you have said you were a "monster" prior to the EA. How were you a monster, when now you are saying that the relative is the one who abused her?

Why don't you just clear it up?

[This message edited by HurtButHopeful? at 3:26 PM, March 28th (Monday)]

DG

This is already the third version of an alleged "abuse" that I count since the thread was open. First, it was some horrible physical abuse inflicted on her (by you), then it changed to the "abuse" of screaming and shouting (which is nonsense) and now it has turned to some alleged "abuse" by a familial third party. If you referring to her allegedly being abused by her father in the past and this is the familial third party, then I still call bullshit on this excuse as an explanation and accusing you for her responsibility for cheating. Still, she's a narcissist and nothing else. If you want to understand why, then do the reverse gender test! If this was a guy then he would be called out and the bullshit, you'll be advised to kick him to the curb and file for a RO. Do you know how many times I was advised by familial third partied to do things that could harm me? Countless times! Guess what I have a brain, I have responsibility so most of the time I wasn't doing what's wrong for me and if yes not blaming others for my bad choices and then use the vindictiveness to become evil and act in a most heinous ways.

There is a saying that the way to hell is paved with good intentions. Still not a reason to conduct yourself the ways your ex was; still not an excuse for cheating and still does not make her vindictiveness less harmful. Still, she's a classic narcissist bully who won’t take responsibility, who will accuse others for everything and who thinks there is something special about her problem that she deserves special treatment. You eventually made a mistake in regard to your advice to her but it's ultimately her decision and responsibility to accept it. You didn't put a gun to her head so you didn't force her. As she cheated she knew very well to enforce her entitlement on you and not vice versa! So, where she wants it then you do not really force her but when she doesn't want it then you do suddenly force her. I call bullshit on this. And given her overall conduct as well as that of the thread I hardly believe you forced her. Probably she wanted this too but as something went wrong she took your advice out of contact and turned against you. In the bottom line, when something goes wrong, even very wrong, that mere fact doesn't make it an "abuse".

The difference between her real abuse and your mistake is intention. You, as you maybe unconsciously or even unwillingly stated in this thread, made unknowingly a mistake. Making something without intention to harm can't by definition be an abuse. Cheating by definition on the other side is almost in 100% of the cases done with intention whether you planned to hurt the betrayed spouse or not so despite this fact is always abuse. In the case of your wife cheating for the second time, with burner phones and secret e-mails was pre-mediated and done with intention. It is not you that are the abuser, but it's her. And the way to claim otherwise that you are the abuser and the villain and her that is the victim is a typical trait of a narcissist. Other poster told you that you have to forgive yourself for being human as in response to her cheating. As a trauma and abuse survivor you have to forgive yourself for this as well and the mistakes you made (that have nothing to do with this abuse). Unless you do this and go NO contact with your abuser as IGOTTHIS mentioned you expose yourself to further manipulation and harm. You did the most terrible and unforgivable mistake for a narcissist namely calling them out and cutting the source of power they had over you. You deprived the narcissist of the power and now it has become a crusade for her to punish as well as regain the power over you. Listen to IGOTTHIS and read the book I suggested you

[This message edited by MrSpock at 3:47 PM, March 28th (Monday)]

DoneGone and Notperfect5

Please read this, both of you.

https://selfcarehaven.wordpress.com/2014/07/21/five-powerful-ways-abusive-narcissists-get-inside-your-head/

You know DoneGone, quite a few people on TAM were wondering if you and Wishes was the same person - how SILLY is that ?

No seriously, how silly IS that ?

Manfromlamancha-

You know DoneGone, quite a few people on TAM were wondering if you and Wishes was the same person - how SILLY is that ?

No seriously, how silly IS that ?

It would be beyond trolling and go into sad pathetic existence territory......

LaMancha,

The writing styles and associated thought processes are not consistent.

I agree PlanC.

True...but the DG in this thread...sounds completely different from the DG in his first thread.

You know...I commented that I had skimmed her thread, and found her to be remorseful. Seeing everyone else's response, I decided to read the entire thread, including the responses from the TAM members. Before, I had just skimmed through her posts. I missed a few.

I have a different perspective now that I've read the thread in its entirety.

Your ex had an affair with the co-worker. Not all affairs are about lust and passion. You were right in your original response to that affair.

She's quite narcissistic.

The response to Alaska77 was out of line...and very usual for DG.

Something is off here.

I see you trying so hard to answer these questions and the twisting and writhing by posters over attempting to piece it together that follows is painful to watch. Don't worry about trying too hard to make them understand. It's almost impossible without full disclosure which may or may not come. And that's ok. As you saw, I tried and failed miserably over at TAM.

Earlier in the thread, Wishes reached out to me in private as a safe zone after she realized I could feel the depth of her past trauma without her saying a word about its details. I’m glad she did, because she is amazing and has had a big impact on me. You did good picking her for your wife. It breaks my heart what has happened to y’all. I think the biggest tragedy of this story is that neither of you saw the full extent of this fall out coming and realizing too late that people do indeed have breaking points. Many of us who have walked the same trauma road end up walking dangerously close to the breakdown point without realizing it until sometimes... like here.. its too late AND can do it with such style, ease and “strength” that no one ever detects there is a problem until kabloom… except she was showing big signs of danger in her health prior to blowing apart completely. What made you not pull the plug when you saw her disintegrating? If you were able to change that time frame… what would you have done different now that you are looking back at it?

I wish you had had the vision to protect her until she could better protect herself and I wish she had already been in the place of knowing truly when it's ok to not people please so hard, but she just wasn’t as is common to long term histories like hers and mine. I had to learn to do the same and it took a very long time. I am grateful she is on a path of recovery. I am grateful you are working on seeing the parts you need to own. Acknowledgment alone was probably a huge release for her.

Of course none of us know where this thing is going to end up. I think you followed some very damaging advice to “level the playing field” and in turn added to the trauma she already has with your words about it when she cannot afford anymore. I understand the thinking behind why, but at the end of the day was just cruel and feel you ended up even injuring yourself in the process as well as her. I am glad you are making amends. Very wise and gives me hope in who you are to her. I hold out the greatest hope for you both to heal whether together or apart.

My biggest piece of advice would be to make an intentional effort to not add destruction to destruction. Choose to be constructive in spite of destruction. All the additional injury only compounds the problem and makes everything way more complex than it needs to be for everyone.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 6:27 PM, March 28th (Monday)]

To everyone...

This is your final warning.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 4:59 PM, March 28th (Monday)]

DG,

If you aren't seeing an IC you should be doing so without question. You have a full plate of issues that a professional therapist can help you with.

Getting a handle on what you've been dealing with will only be a positive no matter if you reconcile or stay divorced. I'm pretty sure people have incurred PTSD from less than what you've experienced.

Now I am not going to pretend I understand all the various ins and outs of your relationship with your XW. But the excerpt you shared with us, while admittedly only a single snapshot in time, showed me a woman who was simply bored with her life and attracted to a seemingly "alpha" male for excitement.

Not a whole lot more or a whole lot less there. There's always a desire to think ones situation is unique, or special or different. But the reality is 90% of affairs aren't special in any way, they are just as sad and tawdry as all the rest of them.

I would recommend reading Athol Kay's MMSLP, which despite the terrible title, does touch on the whole Alpha vs. Beta deal. Now a lot of what's said about this stuff is crap but there's enough truth to it that it's worth learning about. I suspect your XW took your devotion, work ethic and family focus as Beta Behavior. A loud, obnoxious, overly confident man (I'm trying to be polite for some reason) got the lizard brain thinking this man was an Alpha...leading to the Fast Food Restaurant recap as the result.

I'm pointing these things out because it's clear you'd like to reconcile with her; you have a lot of hurdles ahead of you. Please move forward cautiously and realize any criticism of her is intended to help you.

Good Luck with whatever path you take.

COOL OFF

[This message edited by SI Staff at 6:21 PM, March 28th (Monday)]

It's comforting somewhat - to think we had something to do with our spouses' infidelity. That way - we feel we have some control over our future. But just like everyone else here - your sitch is not a special snowflake. You did some mean stuff to your wife. She responded by cheating on you and she was completely cruel about it. She could have responded in so many better ways - but she chose a coping mechanism that blew up your marriage. That's it. You responded to her betrayal the way she could've responded to your transgression. You divorced her.

I hope you get healthy and heal DG.

Um... hey DoneGone? Wishes?

Yeah, uh, there's something you might consider for a second, if you have the time. Consider the possibility that either or both of you might have some psychological and emotional damage. From childhood onward to the current moment.Consider also that your relationship to one-another as well as your children might have suffered to a degree as a result of these issues. Perhaps one or both of you might possibly have made non-ideal, even insensitive or hurtful decisions?

Now what if, what if, there were a grain of truth to all these suppositions?

What would you recommend as a best course of action? What would you say to a friend that came to you will all this information?

I humbly again submit to you that you should both see individual IC. Like yesterday. We on the internet mean well, but we are not professional counselors, and this is above our pay grade.

[This message edited by antlered at 7:38 PM, March 28th (Monday)]

Relax. Take it easy. Do something that's fun for you. I imagine you were writing to vent, get some ideas, explain the situation from the point of an at least partial epiphany, and perhaps other reasons as well. That's fine, and that's what SI is here for.

While it's worth getting as many opinions as possible, keep in mind where some are coming from. Others (and I) have only read what you (and in some cases your ex) have written, and a few will use that limited exposure to summarily pass judgement on her and/or you, or perhaps sometimes just to vent our own bitterness, which is generally not productive.

Very few if any of us really know you, your ex, or the exact situation, and a few may just be clinging to preconceived notions that they don't want to let go of (and we tend sometimes to react more strongly if we suspect we might have used bad judgement in the past. It's much easier to believe 'I was right!' than to admit, even partially 'I may have been a little wrong about some things I said earlier.').

So take your time. If you wish, be supportive of your ex, or of the positive things she does, but be aware you also have the option to ignore her if you need that for your healing.

As to things you feel you've done wrong . . . Well . . . Self examination is great, though if it gets too much into self recrimination, it can be seriously counter-productive. If you feel yourself start to go there, back off a bit, force your mind to change the subject, watch a comedy, or exercise, or something . . . and then come back to the examination later if you feel like. The goal in such self examination is positive improvement, not to drown oneself in regrets.

These are just some suggestions. In my opinion, it really isn't our place to judge (at least, not too much), just to offer ideas and suggestions, or to just listen, when you need us to.

Hang in there. Give yourself a mini-vacation. Rant or discuss as needed.

[This message edited by c24j at 8:03 PM, March 28th (Monday)]

If Wishes' relative(s) are so destructive and dangerous, it would be a good idea if your 3 children know enough details about them so they will maintain good boundaries and/or stay away from them all together.

Secrets destroy families. Openness allows people to make decisions to keep themselves and their loved ones safe.

DG,

I want to add a few things for you to contemplate

The Past Trauma Excuse

Again, as your ex wife is a coward Narcissist, let me tell you something about her past traumas. Your Ex's dishonesty was not a one-time thing but she's cultivated that frame of mind over a long period of time and many decades. Cheating does not come out of the blue but as I explained on another thread as every other action it is a result of a certain mindset that goes hand in hand with intentions. Those intentions and this mindset is what makes us tick as a person. Why most people have other and better coping mechanism than your wife with her cheating? It's because they worked on their mindset and cheating as response to life's problems is not in their repertoire. Everyone has problems, most of us have most probably experience that or the other traumatic event (=experience) in our life. It's inevitable and part of life. Yet, most of us do not cheat. She was lying and deceiving, whether by omission or not, with her past as all of her stories with the past traumas suddenly arose out of the blue once the cheating shit hit the fan. Until, then by her own statements she was happy and couldn't be more than she was. So, she was lying to your face and was dishonest with her "past traumas". She should have told such a crucial part of her personal history to you even if there were apparently no visible problems. In the same way that she was lying to you about her cheating with the first guy which made you to fire him because you had not enough information, I'm almost 100% sure that her omitting the truth, deceiving you and withholding information about her past made you to give her false advise and this caused her current trauma. Unless, she comes to SI and stops cowardly hiding behind other people's back (typically Narcissist move) we can't scrutinize her Bullshit and point directly to where she brought this on herself.

As I told before I call Bullshit on the past trauma excuse! Not only your wife hasn't done anything about it but she was deceiving and lying to you about it. Her past traumas and "breaking points" in the context of cheating are nonsense and a complete pseudo-psychological mumbo jumbo to deflect the responsibility from her shoulders to yours simply because she's a woman and you're a man. You are not a doctor and even if you were you can't help anyone that is lying to your face. Don't believe me? Ask yourself again if you would have been getting the same treatment and your wife the same advice from her white knights if you were cheating on her and she was in your place. Would she have been told to protect you until you can protect yourself; would she have been told to consider your past traumas as an excuse and the "why" for cheating; would she have been told that you're such an amazing man and how lucky she was to marry you. No, she would have been told that you're a jerk, an asshole, a cold hearted and a vindictive abuser. She would have been told to kick you to the curb, file a RO order and divorce you. Well, despite obvious differences I do believe in equality. Your wife shouldn't get any other privileged treatment other than the same that you would have been getting in the same situation. Past trauma is important for understanding one's own suffering and healing from it. It's about self growth. It is not meant to be exploited as an excuse for cheating and inflicting more pain upon other people. Especially if they are your loved ones!

Your Ex Wife as an Expert Narcissist Manipulator

The most astounding things to observe is your Ex's actions and the dynamic that motivates them. You can see that she acts right now with the same frame of mind that motivated her to cheat. It is after an year long therapy which proves in my mind how deep her Narcissism pervades her personality at the moment. I gave you the example of her dishonesty that was not one-time thing but an integral part of her mindset. Another one is how she instigates everything, manipulates everyone and is doing this like in a puppet show from behind the scene without being associated with this. As she herself stated this it was the exact "power play" that she enjoyed with the other man (and naturally over you). Her need for power, control and ego stems exactly from this Narcissist mind frame. Now, she's doing the same. Instead, of coming to SI, she whispers that or the other detail to other people, avoiding those who could call her out on her Bullshit, is misusing them (and you) to portray her as a victim and is such an expert manipulator that according to their own statement she makes them believe her Bullshit even without telling them all the details of what happened (which once again is lying by ommision). This dynamics of manipulation, playing with people is exactly the same dynamic through which she manipulated and played with the evil turd, which is so obvious from her conversation with the imbecile (that you posted on the first thread) as well as everything coming out of her mouth and it quite explains how she could manipulate you and others believing she's the victim and you're the abuser. A master manipulator and a Narcissist!

The White Knight Syndrome

Stop believing the nonsense that you should have protected her until she can protect herself because a lying and deceiving person does not deserves, is not worth and can be protected unless he's willing to stop the lying and is willing to be helped and be protected. The only destruction brought into your Ex's life is the one she brought upon herself by her own behavior. If she wants to stop adding destruction to destruction she should truly and honestly face herself, look in the mirror and recognize the Narcissist she is. Then, she should seek help, work on herself and this is the only way she can stop adding more destruction to her self-created and pre-mediated disasters. Not your fault; not your responsibility; not your Job to do ; not your issue to bother with anymore (as you are divorce) and nothing to protect there

Listen to IGOTTHIS advice and not this one. He is a wise man and knows what he's talking about. As he said many, too many, men are serving sentences because of playing white knights to women who were not worth of their protection. Most women are not like that; they do deserve our love and protection as they are decent and good human beings. In this case I'm all for this. A small percentage does not. And your Ex surely belongs to those that do not deserve it. Listen also to Iver in his last post. There are very strong points but on this maybe in another post. You have to do this if you considering to reconile with her. A reconcilation is impossible with a Narcissist and if you believe a Narcissit can change you must be aware that it is you that must be protected, not her and that it takes alot, but really alot, for such a change

Edited to add: the path to healing (for both of you)

Your work right now is not making amends to your abuser. You work is now to forgive yourself. No one else! To forgive yourself for not seeing your ex wife for what she truly is; to forgive yourself not recognizing fast enough and preventing the abuse. To forgive life, the universe, whatever, that you were inflicted so much pain in life! It's to forgive your human vulnerability that was exploited. Your healing will be possible when you'll accept, forgive yourself and let go of this. You will not heal by blaming yourself, hating yourself and appeasing your abuser. It's not how healing

works.

By the way, once your ex has worked through her issues and fixed them, she'll need to go through the same process of self forgiveness. Right now it's simply to early for her on this path. She doesn't have enough insight and wisdom into her problems that's she's able to forgive this all for herself. Right now without this work self forgiveness is nothing than self delusion and rugsweeping. Let her do her work. don't intervene into this process as it is crucial for her. Later, after she's finished this path and it is stil relevant for both of you, then and only then (given the specific circumstances of your story), you'll be able to reconsider your decision. Right now it's wrong

[This message edited by MrSpock at 4:10 AM, March 29th (Tuesday)]

MrSpock... He was not unaware of the past trauma. The trauma information did come NOT out of the blue. What blindsided both of them was her limit with new trauma. She was doing her absolute best to be the best to everyone when she ruptured from the pressure and effects of new trauma on top of the old trauma.

No one is excusing the affair choice by it.

Not even Wishes.

But to build the case that DG was completely unaware of the past trauma or the new trauma is not accurate. Nor is the effort to get him to change his stance on owning it.

I do believe he didn't realize how close she was to her breaking point, but its why I asked him that looking back in hind sight, when she was showing signs of breaking down even though she was trying so hard to please everybody did he not take the pressure off and remove her from the situation.

I have a VERY similar past and though my H could have applied pressure to me to do what she did for him, knowing my past, he would have never chosen to put me in the position DG put Wishes in.

Again, the results of that no one is saying caused the affair part. He is apologizing for preaffair behavior which took courage and character to do and he should be allowed to do so. I do not believe he should be beat up for that. Its healing for everyone involved. Speaks to his character. To assume she has none because of a fall from grace under extreme pressure doesn't fully track in this situation. She takes WAY more responsibility for her choices and has WAY more remorse than what credit is given here.

I think you were right to put this thread out there DG because you are fully aware your ex is not lacking character. You are honoring that by this transparency.

[This message edited by Blossom4Leigh at 5:03 AM, March 29th (Tuesday)]

MrSpock... He was not unaware of the past trauma. The trauma information did come NOT out of the blue. What blindsided both of them was her limit with new trauma. She was doing her absolute best to be the best to everyone when she ruptured from the pressure and effects of new trauma.

You have half-truths by your own statement above (not your fault). You have no clue what kind of information and how much he received (again not your fault). By her own words and especially her own proven behavior (even with her conduct to you yourself) she's a proven liar and manipulator. Whatever, he received was most probably misleading and thus no one but her and only her is responsible for her new traumas. Even if he knew everything and made a mistake, still irrelevant! Her vindictiveness for a not intended mistake even if the result is very painful (as opposed to her cheating) and her inability to cope with life's difficulties is her own problem. Her conduct AFTER her betrayal with her children only shows how deep her cruelty, vindictiveness and inhumanity run! Still an abuser, still a Narcissist and a one that would sacrifice her own children on the altar of selfishness and egoism!

Additionally, If you have a contact to her (by your own statement above) so instead of speaking what she's telling you, tell her to come and tell us the truth. Stop forwarding the information as what we got are only more broken pieces of it. I find it kind of disturbing that a grown up woman does not speak for herself and let others do it. And the pleaser excuse is just nonsense! The next claim would be that their cheating is such an altruistic act of selfless service to humanity. So, she has problems with her low self-esteem? Well, then, should have worked on her issues earlier and learn to take responsibility and not deflect it when shit's hit the fan. She should have stop lying to herself and everyone and address her problems. Her self-esteem and whatever issues she has are none of her husband's business and responsibility to fix. He's not her parent; he's not her teacher or some kind of a preacher. He's her husband and there are other responsibilities he has. Being faithful which he was is one of them. It's her that wasn't! Especially when she's lying and deceiving everyone!

No one is excusing the affair choice by it.

Not even Wishes.

But to build the case that DG was completely unaware of the past trauma or the new is not accurate.

This is not what was said and it is irrelevant as telling half the truth is very often worse than telling a whole lie. To mislead people it's enough to tell half the truth and every other claim is a subtle way of excusing her behavior as her past traumas are of zero relevance for the cheating. Not interesting for this case.

Just so you are aware.

I'm very aware of it and mentioned this in my above post as well as here

I do believe he didn't realize how close she was to her breaking point, but its why I asked him that looking back in hind shight, when she was showing signs of breaking down even though she was trying so hard to please everybody did he not take the pressure off and remove her from the situation.

Not his business to read the mind of a cheater, a liar or any other person. It's her and only hers responsibility to be open, truthful, transparent and to do this everything. Again, irrelevant and only her and her's responsibility! She can't blame no one but herself! And by the way, her "breaking points" left her with enough energy to hide her tracks, manipulate everyone about her cheating including her children, pre-mediate the the second affair, buy the burner phines, open secret emails. Yeah, sure, that was it. It is clear that if she wouldn't have been caught she would have much more energy to do this despite of her breaking point. The truth is that those breaking points become a problem and such one only because she was caught and that's all. And in fact it's another poor excuse ti justify the affair and escape responsibilty. A typical and expected move from an unremorseful cheater

Again, the results of that no one is excusing. He is apologizing for preaffair behavior which took courage and character to do. I do not believe he should be beat up for that. Its healing for everyone involved. Speaks to his character.

He has to work on his issues as every human being but has nothing to apologize pre-, in- and post affair as in regard to her betrayal. Nothing. This about internalizing blame shifting self-hate not honesty and integrity

To assume she has none because of a fall from grace under extreme pressure doesn't fully track in this situation

It’s not a fall from grace and it has nothing to do with her extreme situation. She had a very nice, comfortable and easy life (stated by the both of then including her herself) that other could only envy. I am a military veteran and can tell you about some extreme (combat) situations and some places where it's really extreme and dangerous to live (I was there). As I said above her cheating is a mindset cultivated through a life-long deceit and dishonesty and the extreme situation she faces is a result of this not vice versa. Most people in this world live in a much more extreme situation than hers. They still do not cheat. She didn't fall from any grace but brought her misery over herself by her own misdeeds and misconduct. And the fall from grace defense is another poor excuse (and irrelevant).

[This message edited by MrSpock at 5:56 AM, March 29th (Tuesday)]

DG, the truth is, no one here, or anywhere else on the internet knows the truth about what your wife was feeling. If she was close to her breaking point, she's an adult, she is responsible for her actions. If she spent time with a relative that abused her...that's on her. Unless you forced her?

We all had issues in our marriage, before the affair happened. Just as you are responsible for you part, so is she.

If this relative sexually abused her, I hope your children are aware they should steer clear of them.

[This message edited by confused615 at 5:36 AM, March 29th (Tuesday)]