SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I totally agree with this and I have to say that I wonder if she wasn't actually in a physical affair with this guy (=the first one). Number of miles away only makes hooking up a bit harder but two people that want to get together will find a way.

Chicky

I will say that I don't think this was her first rodeo. When she posted that you're a big dumbo about her, my first thought is that you've been played before. She's very VERY good at gaslighting and manipulating. I hope you both pursue IC alone.

Alaska77

Those two different separated statements are making one good point and picture. I will too say that given the overall picture it is more than logic that it wasn't her first rodeo. Besides, all affair start as "innocent conversations" and we all know where they all end. In many of the cases, it takes longer period of time for the "innocent emotional part (=affair)" to turn into a full blown physical one. That's the "incubation" time. I disagree that her texting with the first guy was "innocent". An excessive texting with the opposite sex about marriage problems (or anything else) is by definition never innocent, it's a tactic to instigate an affair and it is done with the intent to later escalate it into a full blown physical one. This is how the sexual tension is built on. Therefore, DG firing this guy was completely an appropriate move. It's a apart of her personality and it is so strong that she didn't see any problem with it even not after her marriage was blown apart by her misdeeds and while she trying to nice her ex back into the marriage. And it's interesting how she isn't afraid in the light of her "abuse" to publically flirt with those guys and eventually provoke the "rage and wrath" of her abusing ex risking even physical and mental well-being. I rarely found someone as manipulative as her.

She did not want me to see texts for fear of making things worse between us.

I agree with nekonamida. I too call bullshit on her excuses. If it would really be innocent then, it simply can't make the things worse. Yet, because as I have explained above an extensive texting about marriage problems is a tactic to instigate a full blown physical affair and thus by definition is always wrong, her knowing this fact make her to hide the texting and in order to deflect the responsibility making DG to believe he's crazy and to gaslight him. I somehow knew that it would be easier to convince him that he was the problem and not me, so I proceeded to tear him down, convincing him that he was narrow minded, controlling and just plain jealous. I convinced him that he was the one who needed therapy". In my opinion that says it all.

In my opinion she was doing nothing. The reason for this is as I understand it that she feels quite good about herself and sees nothing wrong with her behavior. In her mind she was simply justified in doing so. Once we understand those dynamics in this light each and every move of her becomes logic. Reconciliation is only possible when a wayward spouse becomes remorseful, is committed to a deep change in him/her, is willing to be completely vulnerable, becomes honest, transparent and gets it. This is not how reconciliation works. Her actions show that she's even not regretful.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 5:35 AM, March 28th (Monday)]

DG,

I have followed everything from day one, I have read it all both versions even thread on other site.

Here is a piece of advice-

Get the hell away as far as humanly possible from your ex wife.

She is a master, master manipulator, she has manipulated your children (backfired), she had you on lock and now she has an anonymous base of people on the other site already rallying to her cause.

This was not her first affair, this is the only one she has been caught with.

If you think I am lying have her do a polygraph....but then again you are divorced so no need. Also you weren't crazy controlling or jealous she had no business texting any man to discuss intimate and/or personal things, it was shady and a violation of boundaries so she was being foul, stop beating your self up.

You are divorced, she wants you back but she needs to have "control" and manipulate you to the fullest hence her bs about getting counseling first.

She is seriously one of the most dangerous kinds of females there are, she can manipulate people ( men more so) in to doing drastic things.

Go no contact, your ex wife is not who you think she is she has already convinced you that you are a villain and re-written your pre-affair history.

The reason why she does not come to SI is because the WW forum has people who will see through her shenanigans and call her out on it.

Despite her antics she is still in very much WW behavior and if at this stage she has not stopped or changed I would not hold my breath.

Go no contact, ASAP, for your mental, psychological, emotional, and spiritual well-being.

She states that "also, I have read DG's thread in it's entirely and he never lied, however, he did not have his facts straight either. He wrote what he thought was the truth and nothing he wrote really changes the fact that I cheated on him and I am 100% responsible for that. Once he realized the truth, I think it softened his position on me". Given all that I've written and this last statement of her, it depicts a picture of a highly narcissist wayward, who doesn't get anything, is still highly manipulative, secretive and dishonest, playing mind games with his/her spouse and the people who try to help them, is neither remorseful nor regretful, nor has some empathy and compassion for her betrayed spouse and simply doesn’t get anything. It seems that she was also successful in exploiting DG weakness and vulnerability. Simply not a reconciliation material at all! As I said her thread was closed on TAM and not only for this reason. I'm really not surprised at all. And if all of this crap comes after one year of "therapy" then I'm speechless. The depth of her betrayal and Narcissism is astounding

[This message edited by SI Staff at 6:13 AM, March 28th (Monday)]

HurtButHopeful

Trying to get the timeline correct:

1. She is texting coworker in CA for business, and also for advice on her marriage. (wrong move on her part, IMO to talk to people of the opposite sex about marital problems.)

2. You get jealous. She hides texts (another wrong move IMO) because the two of you are already having marital problems, not related to CA friend and she is afraid you will be upset if you read the advice CA friend is giving to her.

3. She starts to see and text video guy too. You don't know she now is texting two guys. (I don't condone texting people of the opposite sex when one is married.)

4. You fire guy in CA because you believe she is having an A with him. (This is not your bad, because she refused to show you the texts. She actually forced your hand.)

5. You meet video guy when they are having lunch. You don't know she is having an affair with him, because you thought she was having one with CA guy who is now fired. You suspect nothing. (She an own this too.)

6. You see the naked pic of video guy on her phone. She denies it is physical. (She can own this.)

7. Your friend tells you she was seen going to a hotel, and you verify she has lied to you about video guy. (On her.)

8. You became abusive to her, physically, emotionally and psychologically. This is partly on you. You apparently went too far, although neither you nor she has told anyone what you actually did, or said.

A very good timeline. The only thing I would change is that number 8 needs to be number 1. First, I did not intentional become abusive to her, physically, emotionally and psychologically, but, in my idealistic view of life, I put her into an environment of physical, emotional and psychological abuse from another.

This is a little strange to me. I read the stuff over on TAM, and they weren't insulting her, they were just calling her out on her stuff. (Ignore the troll who was saying absurd things and who was deleted later, but some of their quotes remained in other people's posts.) Why would you abuse her yourself for over a year, and then not let her be treated like an adult, and be held accountable by people she went to for help?

We can agree to disagree. I will agree with you to the point that most of the posts made to her were on point, however, when one reads all the posts collectively, it is simple to see the ones that were there to hurt and the ones that were there to help. I only began reading her thread after I had received many PM's and emails informing me that she was being beat-up over there. So, whether she was or wasn't, I acknowledge, is relative.

What really happened? Neither of you is willing to say. Why are you both posting on marriage forums for advice when neither of you is willing to tell the people trying to help you the information they need to give informed and good advice?

You are asking me questions best asked to Wishes. She has been asked those questions many times on TAM and ignored them. My only reason for popping back up on this site was to open the way for her to come here and/or let her know that it is alright with me if she tells her story. Her story 100% involves her family, and very personal, and being that we are divorced, I do not feel like I have license to tell it. If she chooses to do so, good for her. I think she should if she wants to, but I am in no position to tell her what to do.

What did you do to her in anger that neither of you is willing to share?

Nothing you did justified her having an affair. If you were horrible to her, she should have left you, not had an affair.

My anger was over the adultery and I think we have both talked about that. Not sure to what extent Wishes has. No physical violence against her but much screaming, raging, breaking things, hollering, accusations....mostly all verbal.

What did you do to her in anger that neither of you is willing to share?

I am willing to share. If it could be helpful to Wishes, I think she should share. I believe she now knows that if she is to receive help on TAM or here, she is going to have to share.

You are sooooo being played.

Good luck, DG.

kimichi

DoneGone seems to be going through some weak moments

I am . I am going through some weak moments, however, in my defense, in case I need to defend myself, I have always said to this forum as well as to Wishes that my intentions have always been to divorce her, go balance the books and then decide whether to reevaluate my relationship with Wishes.

As far as me having weak moments, I must admit, I have always had weak moments with Wishes. That's why I had to get out.

Walloped

I wouldn't phrase it that way. I think she's opening up. More calling out some things DG is doing that he shouldn't, to illustrate that they both need therapy and help. They are divorced. He has moved on. To do what she says he is, frankly is wrong and there is no justification for it. DG, I would venture, would agree. Obviously it's because he's in pain, but just because one was wronged does not mean all actions are okay. We are better than that. They may be understandable, but that does not make them right.

She is also right not to agree for drinks, etc unless he stops with other women. That is fair. It is his choice, she is not telling him what to do. But if he reaches out to her, as his ex, she is well within her rights to say that a condition for starting down a path of possibly getting back together is him not having an ongoing relationship at the same time.

Look, these are two people who still love each other. One betrayed the other. There were clearly issues in the marriage (whose doesn't?) that should have been addressed, and there could have been better ways to deal with her infidelity and what has happened since. Great. Enough blame to spread around. So what? The real question is where do they go from here and how do they approach it? With integrity and character or not? It is up to them. Regardless, I hope they both get the healing they need.

I couldn't agree more. I was very wrong and acting like a child. The fact is, the OMW is a very good woman, however, she hates Wishes. I have always looked at myself as a very good man, but I also hated Wishes and because of what Wishes did to us, we decided we had the right to make Wishes suffer over and over and over, and we did.

Only when I read some of the posts of TAM and Wishes response, or lack of response to them, did I realize what a jerk I was. I did break off all contact with OMW a short time ago, and have apologize to Wishes for my bad behavior. I am not sure if my posting here is a positive or negative in her journey. I do know she wishes I would stay out of it.

sassylee

Actually - your xww stated that you did not go to any mc after the motel incident - not 1x, not 2x, not 3x. When cornered into stating that you must be liar on your thread here - she explains you did not go to mc 3x but to her personal counsellor 3x. She's playing word games. She's even dividing her chosen support forum by telling secret parts of her story to the sympathetic members so they will jump up and be her knight in shining armour

I did not know the difference at the time I thought the therapist was a MC, in fact, I thought the two words were somewhat interchangeable.

I know nothing of her telling parts of her story but if she does, that's her choice.

And if your great transgression in your marriage is the reaction to the father-figure colleague...it all could've been resolved if she had simply told you she was concerned for the marriage and getting advice. Why couldn't she had said "please call his wife - she will assure you it's on the up and up" btw - did the colleague's wife know?

DG - if you had come here to SI all those years ago with a tale about over-texting with a male coworker - hiding her phone - refusal to show the texts - WE ALL WOULDVE THOUGHT SHE WAS CHEATING! This is classic cheating behaviour. These are red flags and you were right to be concerned. The fact it was innocent and she could have easily cleared this up through transparency or even *gasp* honesty - well - that's on her. It's unfortunate that she was unwilling to cede control and power in that situation and her father figure paid a price for her deceit.

Please - try to see this situation through objective eyes. Try to untangle yourself from your emotional involvement and think about what solid advice you would give one of us if we were to tell your story and come to SI for clarification and direction.

Strength and clarity brother...

I agree with you totally, completely. I am not here to defend Wishes, and I know it sounds like I am. I have not spoken ill of the TAM posters. My only argument with her was to come to the Wayward forum here. I do not believe she would be treated with kids gloves if she does, however, the stop sighs, that's what I have been trying to explain to her.

That has been my only real entanglement that I am aware of, other than me identifying my very bad behavior and desiring to make amends. And let's be clear here, making a amends and marrying her again are two different animals.

RunningLowNow

I have read both threads, here and on TAM. It strikes me that we have two damaged hurt people who may love each other but have lost the kinds of connections that might have lead them back together.

The landscape of their love resembles a World War One trench scape. Done Gone and Wishes have dug their trenches, supported them with weapons, and creating, in depth the heavy defenses needed to blast the other out of existence. Now in dead lock they cannot reach our for fear of ceding the other one advantage. Neither one can risk a flag of truce, meeting in the middle and leaving the crap behind.

So there they sit, behind their defenses, lashing out, hurting one another, but solving nothing.

Their story is one of the saddest and most painful I have ever read.

Nothing could be closer to the truth, I suppose.

ataloss

Done gone, what did you hope to achieve through opening up this new thread? That is a serious question.

Hope you and your kids are well.

I don't know now. I wasn't sure when I opened it if it was a good or bad thing to do. I couldn't even think of a heading. Actually, I certainly would not have opened it at all except my other thread had reached the limit of 1000 posts.

A lot has been said concerning Wishes manipulating. What I saw, when I read her thread, was her avoiding answering any question that would make me look bad. I opened this thread to come clean and did not expect there to be much interest in it.

k8la

DG - I've read and re-read so I have a full understanding of what you and Wishes have each individually shared.

Here's the thing. If she had been willing to be open and honest about her "father-figure" guy, you could have more easily come to terms with the massive amounts of texts going back and forth. But she shut you out. She was behaving like a wayward, even if she wasn't at that point.

Marriage means NO SECRETS. No "private" conversations that go on and on and on.

You had every right to be suspicious. She only used the revelation of innocence to leverage you.

Does that give you license to go be hateful to her now on the secretive behavior?

No.

But to publicly take responsibility for contributing to her affair? No to that as well.

I can't help but feel she's still manipulating you. She is 100% responsible for triggering you. That's ALL on her. She behaved like a wayward. You firing a guy without all the evidence in front of you? Perhaps that's partly on you. But it's partly on her as well, since she held the cards that would have made this all open and honest.

She needs to get to a place of being 100% responsible for that behavior, as well as her wayward behavior, before she could ever be a safe person for you. She needs to apologize to her father-figure friend because she orchestrated him getting fired. She needs to be committed to living in a 100% open and honest lifestyle before she's safe for anyone.

The only reason I doubt anything I did during the texting and after the adultery was the anger I was so angry I could not see straight. Thank you for saying that. Wishes knows I am not out to hurt her anymore and she's also heard it from me, she has got to come clean with everything if she expects to get any real help.

I said in the beginning, if she would continue in TAM the way she started, she can get help there, but I still belive the Wayward forum here is best for her.

Valentinesucks

DG, you've been a gentleman from the first post here, whether you will see that or not.

I have to concur with Spock and Sassylee.

I think you are being manipulated into rewriting the past. And, you have a bit of Stockholm syndrome.

Who nuked your marriage?

You?

Most certainly not.

Just because you chose to flee the blast zone doesn't mean you had any hand in the end of your marriage. The point of one's life after dday is to get out of infidelity.

You did this the best way you knew how.

From the beginning, you felt guilt for the anger you demonstrated. We had to tell you that you were entitled. I think you were restrained, actually.

You never involved your daughters.

Quite the opposite. You were fearful for their happiness and safety. Your ex wife? Not so much!

She's still got a tremendous amount of healing to do. A long way to go to becoming a whole and balanced person. I say this because she still thinks of herself as "not being able to live without her husband." This us such an unhealthy way to view oneself. You do not need to be with a person who cannot live without another. It's a prescription for disaster.

Please let us support you and remind you that you've done nothing wrong. You've suffered an enormous shock that still ripples within you today. You did the best by everyone. Now, do the best by YOU.

I should have said 'relationship.' I did nuke the relationship. Hindsight is 20/20. Let me say in my defense, I was too bullheaded, thinking I had all the answers and would not listen to her concerns. I hate speaking in generalities and none of these conversations can go anywhere if she continues to stay mum.

Western

I too want to know what he claims as bad behavior on his part but in the end, she was still wrong.

I want you to know. I think with a little more time she will talk. Believe me when I say, it is not mine to share. It is deeply personal for her, but since I have informed her publicly, on this forum, that she need not protect me, I think she needs to just out with it.

nekonamida

I'm very quick to defend and protect victims of domestic abuse and yet this is exactly why I'm not trusting her account of things. She claimed that him asking and enforcing reasonable boundaries in the M while knowing full well he was doing it against the wrong man (though still an EA OM) was controlling and akin to abuse. I'm sure DG did verbally say things that under normal circumstances would be considered emotional abuse. I have a hard time believing things were as bad as she claimed considering her accounts of it range from how DG is the perfect H to he's to blame because of the abuse she suffered from him. That doesn't make any sense and the "abuse" she did reveal sounds like the angry behavior of most BSes put into that kind of situation. I'm sure many took it worse and I don't blame them either or consider what they did to be on par with an abusive spouse! Infidelity pushes people to their emotional extremes and they don't act in ways they normally would. A remorseful WS sees this and learns not to hold it against the BS. As long as she holds this over DG's head as the reason she cheated, she is not remorseful.

I only read thru her thread quickly, however, is she claimed I abused her, that would not be true, other than the rage I lashed out at her. I guess that could be construed as abuse. But that came after the infidelity, not before.

I did, ignorantly and unknowingly, subject her to abuse and I wish she would open up. I think, in fact, I am sure, if she would tell her side of this story, she would garner, not only much more sympathy but also respect.

azteca

DG used the terms - deliberate physical torture - in his last thread here. Any light he could shed on that would be useful.

If I said that concerning myself, then I misspoke.

ataloss

Clearly from Wishes perspective the abuse she is alluding to seems to be situational.

Pre my wh ea turned pa I was acutely aware of his none stop texting. I know now in his mind there was nothing to it just a close female friend that he could confide in (completely inappropriate, summer of 2013). In my mind I could feel something was amiss, he had other female friends before and I had no issue. This time he was hiding his phone, she was texting until midnight, it all seemed off.

Long story short, I went ballistic, screaming, throwing things, telling him that our marriage was over. I demanded that he end this friendship which he claimed to do. I was told that I was pathetic, crazy, needed therapy, controlling, abusive and jealous. This continued for a year and a half and I did believe that there was something wrong with me but those gut feelings never left. The friendship went underground, an ea/pa ensued and I was truly none the wiser. I thought for the most that they had remained friends.

In addition, I have spent many years working as a crisis counselor in DV. We were trained very well on how to weed out situations that didn't qualify as DV. In my 8 years (200 women annually and a significant amount of men) never did I once meet a victim of DV who in her situation went on to have an affair, with stories of playing footsie while the spouse was around or writing demeaning texts/emails. They were in all honesty terrified to move for the most part.

Your 5ft2 ex wife on the one hand says you were the most perfect husband but then alludes to having to do your will. She paints a very conflicting story that she has no desire to explain except to one poster, in private, due to her sympathetic ear.

Wishes could have had her post shut down long ago but she didn't. You have offered to give up posting here so that she can benefit.

Done gone, you're a great dad and I wonder how much of that is influencing your most recent posts.

Continue to tell your story. You have a strong SI support. Stop alluding to the past and be honest so we can help. Sadly I think your children are reading these threads and deserve a conclusion to this whole overdrawn out mess.

I cannot reply to most things you refer to, but I can say this. My post here now, and maybe not too helpful at all, are my feeble attempts to push or pull Wishes into committing, one way or the other.

Chicky

I totally agree with this and I have to say that I wonder if she wasn't actually in a physical affair with this guy. Number of miles away only makes hooking up a bit harder but two people that want to get together will find a way. You fired him for what did occur. Well, were you fortunate enough to happen upon a terminable offense? Is California an "at will" employment state? Because I just cannot believe you could fire him and have no repercussions for doing so (unless you have and just didn't disclose it here).

No, she definitely was not in an EA or PA with him. I did get full access to all emails, and text messages. I do not want to introduce some kind of defense for Wishes. That is for her, if she decides to do so.

I did, ignorantly and unknowingly, subject her to abuse and I wish she would open up. I think, in fact, I am sure, if she would tell her side of this story, she would garner, not only much more sympathy but also respect.

I find that highly unlikely if physical abuse wasn't involved. For the record, I don't think Wishes said there was physical abuse, just that you've done terrible things, but the posters in this thread including myself were confused by some of the wording in your post. If physical abuse wasn't involved and your verbal/emotional turmoil came after the infidelity was discovered, not a single poster here will sympathize or respect her for how she conducted herself.

Extreme anger outbursts are normal for BS. Spouting accusations and dropping F bombs and insults is also normal. Would this be considered abuse if your XWW burnt dinner that night instead of having an A? I would say so but since she had an A, she has to be aware of the amount of pain and devastation that she caused and excuse you for lashing out and saying things you may not mean. I invite you to post either in JFO, Gen, or Rec and ask BS what the worst thing or fight they had with their WS was like and how their WS handled it. Many MANY couples in R had full blown screaming, throwing things, hurling insults as their WS melt downs and their WS acted completely differently than Wishes did because they knew that on some level they deserved it for causing that amount of pain in the first place. That's why posters hope that you forgive yourself for being human with Wishes and truly question her motives when she turns everything back on you and about how horrible you acted instead of taking a hard look at how her actions caused that mess in the first place.

So based on what you said, is the timeline now correct?

1. You and Wishes had a wonderful, loving marriage for many years.

2. All of the sudden, you put her into an environment of physical, emotional and psychological abuse from another person.

3. She begins texting coworker in CA for business, and also for advice on her marriage due to the abuse you and the other person are putting her through. (wrong move on her part, IMO to talk to people of the opposite sex about marital problems.)

4. You get jealous. She hides texts (another wrong move IMO) because the two of you are already having marital problems, not related to CA friend and she is afraid you will be upset if you read the advice CA friend is giving to her.

5. She starts to see and text video guy too. You don't know she now is texting two guys. (I don't condone texting people of the opposite sex when one is married.)

6. You fire guy in CA because you believe she is having an A with him. (This is not your bad, because she refused to show you the texts. She actually forced your hand.)

7. You meet video guy when they are having lunch and they play footsies and disparage you in texts after you leave. You pay for their lunch. You don't know she is having an affair with him, because you thought she was having one with CA guy who is now fired. You suspect nothing. (She van own this too.)

8. You see the naked pic of video guy on her phone. She denies it is physical. (She can own this.)

9. Your friend tells you she was seen going to a hotel, and you verify she has lied to you about video guy. (On her.)

10. You became verbally and emotionally abusive to Wishes. You tear up a couple of rooms, but don't hit Wishes.

11. You begin posting on SI

12. You divorce Wishes.

13. You begin seeing OM's wife. The two of you are cruel to Wishes.

14. Wishes begins posting on TAM

I did not intentional become abusive to her, physically, emotionally and psychologically, but, in my idealistic view of life, I put her into an environment of physical, emotional and psychological abuse from another.

I did, ignorantly and unknowingly, subject her to abuse and I wish she would open up. I think, in fact, I am sure, if she would tell her side of this story, she would garner, not only much more sympathy but also respect.

Who was this abusive person you brought into Wishes' life when your marriage was still very good? How did he inflict emotional, physical and psychological abuse on her? Were you aware of it at the time? Why did you allow it? Did Wishes protest and stop the abuse? Did you?

It is beginning to sound like you became bored with your beautiful marriage, and you decided to "spice it up" by bringing more people in: aka swinging, or open marriage, or perhaps S&M?

Is that what you did? Did it blow up in your face when Wishes decided to branch out on her own (or so you thought with OM #1 whom you fired?) Then she got OM#2, and you went ballistic.

OMW is a very good woman, however, she hates Wishes. I have always looked at myself as a very good man, but I also hated Wishes and because of what Wishes did to us, we decided we had the right to make Wishes suffer over and over and over, and we did.

Of course OMW hates Wishes. She played a role in ruining her otherwise bad marriage to lazyVideoGameBoy. I doubt that OMW is a "very good woman," or she wouldn't have schemed with you to hurt Wishes, but she would have taken the high road.

What did you and OW do to make Wishes suffer, other than phoning her up and telling her that you "just got some more healing" after being together?

[This message edited by HurtButHopeful? at 10:37 AM, March 28th (Monday)]

{{{Hugs}}} to you. Thank you for the update. I'm pulling for you.

I'm confused about one thing though, does Wishes still have a relationship with her father? Did you being him into this mess?

[This message edited by atalosss at 10:40 AM, March 28th (Monday)]