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Is the guy a local to the middle east country she is at or did he move there from the States ? And he is really a bellboy ?

How long into this trip did she contact him and start cheating again ?

You are right about the 180 though. Had you acted with a more anger after her first confession and waited rather than jumping for R almost immediately, she wouldn't have cheated again so soon and so easily.

She wants something she can't have. How long before she comes back ? It will be quite messy for you.

Is the guy a local to the middle east country she is at or did he move there from the States ? And he is really a bellboy ?

He's middle eastern, but I don't quite know if he's local to this country. He worked at the front desk.

How long into this trip did she contact him and start cheating again ?

It was about six days before she contacted him. I don't have the exact timeline of how the second affair progressed.

How long before she comes back ? It will be quite messy for you.

She comes back in less than a week. I will be far away visiting family when she comes back. But I know I'll see her again eventually, unless I want to dump all our mutual friends and stop going to our shared activities etc. And yes, it will probably be messy. I just hope I can be strong enough to not contribute to the mess.

toopol - please start documenting her continued contact with you (if you haven't already). Document any and every attempted contact. I would tell her ONCE that any further attempted contact in any form will result in you taking legal action against her.

And why isn't her number blocked already? Block her number, set her ringtone to silent, remove her and block her from all social media and lock those down tight.

You're doing great, keep up the good work.

((((toopol))))

Can you talk to the counselor prior to the appointment and tell her your end goal it to get all logistics laid out of the table and block exgf at the end of the talk?

You've already had your "closure", "what can I do?" ... talk.

If the counselor plans to make this into a final "counseling session" to discuss what went wrong, for closure, to help you both heal... I'd cancel. You don't need that type of pain.

In truth it would be best to just put it into an email and send it to her. "As of date, I stop cable...", You will need to change the __________ to your name by (date). Do you want the _____ CD's or can I have them?

My view point it that the CC is going to cause more problems in the long run.

I don't think you need to discuss what you each will say to your friends about the break-up. It's assumed that you will tell them the truth if they ask. A simple - "We broke-up because i didn't like her other boyfriend would be enough."

This discussion in counseling is just asking for a long drawn out discussion on who did what/why... and that's not what you want.

Break it down. What do you NEED to discuss during CC? Would that information be better written out (documented) than discussed with someone trained at getting couples back together.

I know that most waywards engage in risky stupid behaviour, like unprotected sex, or sex in a public place, but committing adultery in the Middle East is like having a death wish. Even pre-marital sex is a crime in most Islamic countries.

Toopol, your parents sound like very wise people. I'm wondering if they sense something in her that you have been unable to see?

it looks like she thinks she can change your mind. From my observations, a lot of male WS seem to be that way. They do what they want and then expect that they can sweet talk their BWs into accepting them back by pledges to change, oaths of love, etc.

did you have a habit of doing whatever your ex wanted? that's ok. I think most good men try to please their wives. I'm just curious.

but it also might mean a tendency to narcissism. Narcissists think they can always get their way if you just give them a chance to explain. She thinks if you understand the circumstances for why she had another affair with him and if she can just explain how much she regrets it, and how she really loves you, you will forgive her. Have you noticed that she doesn't seem to be worried about what YOU want? She doesn't seem to be asking if YOU still love HER. The only thing that matters in her mind, is that she wants you. She loves you. that's all that seems to matter to her.

If you think it will help, you might explain that you just don't love her anymore. or that YOU, don't want to be with HER. But if not, just stay NC.

I'm glad that you don't seem to be wavering. I think it would be a huge mistake. Now, you have clarity. You know that she has no qualms with lying to you. And you know she had done it. And you know she would cheat again if it suited her.

I find it astounding that after she had the first affair with all of the drama and tears and counseling that she would go right back and do it again. And with a guy from the mideast! I'm not trying to say anything bad about mideastern people. But I'm trying to point out the logistics. She's from a conservative catholic family. He's probably a muslim. Was she going to quit her job and move to the mideast? Was he going to move here? Was he going to be a bellhop here? Absolutely no foresight.

and the disrespect of Bcc-ing him a copy of the breakup email she sent to you? It's breathtaking.

Do you see? All this seems to point to a very, very self-centered view of the world. She does what she wants and worries about consequences later, if at all.

I know it's hard, but I would think that very soon you should be feeling relief at this.

good luck friend.

Toopol,

While reading this thread, one thing that cuted my eye was that was mention all the things your XGF is doing are “2 moth late”. IMO this is not what is happening.

“2 moths late” would be if she honored the NC and start acting the way you need to heal, but this is not the case. She had 2 moths to fix your relation but she didn’t try and now you know why.

She was missing OM and maybe in touch with him all this time (long shot but I wouldn’t be surprised) or at least wondering how thing with him would be, that’s why she didn’t put the necessary effort to fix her relation with you.

Her new betrayal is different from her first affair. This time she knew what she was risking, the consequences she would face, the devastation she caused, etc. That’s why is not 2 months late, or too late. This is a new conscious and planned betrayal.

If you decide tio give her she has a lot to explain: the 2 months of false R, real time line, if you are plan B, etc.

Las thing, I believe OM was in contact all this time, then she arrived to the same city and they reassumed the relation but this time, your XGF was ready to leave you for good (something she has been planning since she returned from the first trip) but this time OM got rid of her once she tried to have a formal relation with him. IMO she was ready to be with him, as she put in her breakup email.

If I were you I would like to ask her:

What was her plan to explore a relation with OM, I mean, moving to his city? It would explain how OM dumped her like a hot potato. It is not the same just to drink the milk without buying the cow.

He was just trying to keep f***kin her not string attached but as he seduced her with undying love he needed to make thing hard for her to stay, that’s why he sent her break up email cc to you . After that he kept being her plan A so he dumped her, she kept begging so he sent his email, to put the last nail in the coffin from them.

Of course from her email to him email they were talking and more.

Se has a lo to explain…

Don't rule out Mike's narcissist theory. It could very well be.

What I was trying to point out before is your openness to R and forgiveness did make you look weak but I actually think this worked in your favour. She is who she is (that hopefully will change over time) and she probably was more honest because she thought you would cave if she came back. Maybe your actions didn't match your words (do it again and its over) and if you were more forceful she would have just hid it well Youu may have found out years from now. Not sure if I'm making myself clear.

She has been presenting herself to you as inexperienced and uninformed b t maybe that has been an act all along. She is very me-centred in her email and the bcc thing is most definitely a dark level of cruelty.

Also, when I first posted I put verbatim all my fwh's emails on this site. I found the full picture gave others the opportunity to help me more. Only two SI members know my identity now so the anonymity helped a greatt deal. I wouldn't feel guilty about posting those emails at all.

One quick observation: if you can see her location on Find My iPhone, she will be able to see yours, too, right? Before she returns, I would do what you need to do to prevent her from seeing your location, including changing any of your account passwords she knows, especially those that (can) track location, including Google and Facebook, and disallowing her from seeing your location on Facebook, if you have that option enabled.

Delete whatever app you have to monitor her.

Stop diagnosing what’s wrong with her.

She is no concern of your anymore.

Detach.

Move on.

Mourn, grief but let go and start your own recovery.

now I'm wondering if she'll be able to handle that.

Gently, she won't. She won't be able to handle it, which is why the counselor will be there. You know this, so start acting like you know this and preparing yourself mentally for what is likely to be an excruciating spectacle for you. If it helps, somewhere in your head you need to turn down the volume on her voice but turn up the volume of a telenovela. Every time she sniffles and boo-hoos, in your mind see the subtitles (cries in Spanish).

Make a list of the things you absolutely need to say in front of the counselor before any of the other discussion regarding friends, etc. In your position, the first thing on my list would be: "After today's session, further contact from you will be considered harassment and subsequently reported to the police with an eye to getting a restraining order. During your absence I requested you stop messaging and emailing me (number) times. This request went ignored and given your general emotional state I accepted it, knowing that this appointment was on the horizon. But my care and concern for your emotional well-being ends the moment we walk out that door, and I will react accordingly should any further effort of contact be made on your part. This is not a warning. This is a fact."

You are going to have to summon your Inner Clint Eastwood for this one. Squint your eyes if you must, maybe a toothpick in the mouth. You know what I mean. Try to avoid the hat -- only he can pull that hat off IRL. But get cowboyed up. You're in control of yourself and you need to show her so.

I really hope you can do this, toopol, but I admit to worrying a bit for you. See, my ex is long-gone but I'm now married to someone who sounds an awful lot like you. The ways you've responded to your X's various "crises" in this situation sound so much like him, and I know what he'd do in this situation. He'd agree to a coffee meeting to "talk things over," hear her out. He'd agree to a few phone calls because she "has some questions." He'd even agree to maybe an afternoon of going through the book collection or something. All of that to be a nice guy because he is a nice guy, and he hates to see anybody in emotional distress.

But I'm going to tell you the same thing I'd tell this man I've been with for 20 years now:

Get hard. Nut up. This isn't about saving the world. Put the cape away for a day and realize this drama is not about you. It's about her, and it will go wherever she wants it to go no matter what you do. So let her get on with it by herself, because your heart and your time are too, too valuable to waste on someone who is busy wrecking the world you're trying to save.

I wish peace for you. You're almost finished. Stay strong.

[This message edited by Threnody at 10:18 AM, June 20th (Monday)]

I agree with Bigger. Time to severe all connections and communications. Is that remaining stuff at the apartment really worth the risk of contacting her again?

Threnody, I love your telenovela and Eastwood explanations. Good way of thinking about it, and it made me laugh.

but it also might mean a tendency to narcissism.

I'll be re-evaluating this in my head for a while, but my initial thought is that she's probably not a narcissist. She has done some sweet and selfless things for me over the years, and I'm skeptical that we could go through over a year of couples counseling without this possibility being raised.

Las thing, I believe OM was in contact all this time, then she arrived to the same city and they reassumed the relation but this time, your XGF was ready to leave you for good (something she has been planning since she returned from the first trip) but this time OM got rid of her once she tried to have a formal relation with him. IMO she was ready to be with him, as she put in her breakup email.

Maybe, but that would require a pretty elaborate deception. I read some of their old texts and such, and I've tried to piece together the story from the bits she has told me and let slip out. To me, it sounds like she broke NC on the second trip, but he didn't want to be with her until she officially chose him, and he did everything he could to make her pick him (while I, of course, was oblivious). Finally she sent me the breakup email and BCCed him so that he would keep seeing her. When she changed her mind, she told me that she was 100% sure she wanted me, and she claims that she told him that "I had told him I was struggling with the decision to break up with you and that I needed time to process it." (Still lying, still manipulative, still not wanting to close any doors.) She claims that their relationship is now officially done after she sent the new breakup letter to him. And he's accepting it gracefully because he's a real gentleman who just wants what's best for her relationship with me.

My view point it that the CC is going to cause more problems in the long run.

I'm seriously reconsidering whether I want to be a part of this last CC session. I can see how my ex-girlfriend might view it as her big chance to talk to me and convince me to give her another chance, and while that's definitely not going to happen, it won't make it any easier on either of us.

But maybe it's a good idea to be there even if she's going to try that, because the counselor has told me "there's no coming back from this" and "she's going to have to accept it" and might help her see the light?

Also, unless I want to lose mutual friends and activities, I am *going* to see her again at some point. I don't want to have to give up things I love because of a need to run from her. So it might be nice to break the ice a little and establish a precedent for seeing each other in an appropriate way. What do you think?

Also, unless I want to lose mutual friends and activities, I am *going* to see her again at some point.

Oh you will lose friends over this. Guaranteed. Especially any couples friends.

People won't want to be put in the middle or will want to avoid any potential drama. One of you will get iced out. My money is on you getting not invited to events.

Your xGF will spin a tale of her being the victim. Most women typically value social status much more than men. Her being a cheater lowers her status. Once she realizes that she can't get you back she will pivot to repairing her social standing among your shared friends at your expense and the truth.

[This message edited by SquirrelFace at 11:31 AM, June 20th (Monday)]

I am curious why you are having another country selling session with her? Didn't you already lay out the logistics that need to be set? Do you need a counseling session to figure out what to say to people? You tell your friends you've broken up. No explanation needed unless you want to give it. You don't need to ask for her permission to tell people why.

I'm assuming you're hopeful that the counseling session will make this smooth and on best terms possible. While that will be true on *your* end, I'm not hopeful for her. Her last many counseling sessions seem to have gone against counselors advice, and her following actions in line with her "me me me" mode.

Even her latest text message is all about hope of manipulating you. You guys can still figure it out, just talk to her, it's not too late, blahblah. It's still ALL about her

Yes she sounds unstable. *she* may feel heartbroken but her words indicate a very self-focused, manipulative, and victim-esque version of "heartbroken." She's heartbroken over her loss of options, not over what she's done *to you.* there's a difference, and that difference is important.

So it might be nice to break the ice a little and establish a precedent for seeing each other in an appropriate way. What do you think?

I think your situation is very different from a pair of divorced parents attending their shared child's basketball game. And even in that situation, most people don't need counseling or ground rules. They just know to mutually ignore each other or to politely interact. Not a lot of rocket science involved.

Your situation is going to be weird for most people because there will be no strings remaining when this is over. I think you will find you keep the friends that were "yours", she will keep the friends that were "hers". And group activities will have one of you or neither of you invited depending on the group decision.

I am curious why you are having another couples counselling session with her? Didn't you already lay out the logistics that need to be set? Do you need a counseling session to figure out what to say to people? You tell your friends you've broken up. No explanation needed unless you want to give it. You don't need to ask for her permission to tell people why.

Yeah... I wanted to have a respectful conversation about who gets what stuff (but most of it is pretty obvious and I'm being pretty generous because of course I am), and I wanted to get her approval on messages to friends saying "we" appreciate their support and all that. Also, we both play on the same intramural sports league and I wanted to either make sure that would still be okay or else make sure that we don't go on the same day. And I'd hate for either of us to stop getting invited to our friends' get-togethers! They're always big groups of people, so it's not like it will just split down the middle. We could separate so cleanly if she would just accept it!

But I just found a Skype video message from last night. And it's two minutes of wailing and pleading and tears falling down her face. Again, I'm stunned by how little it changes my mind when I first see it. But more than anything else she begs me to "just talk" to her about it and not shut her out, so that makes me think that any opportunity to talk to me (including the counseling session) would not be good for us at this point.

I texted the counselor to ask what she thought.

[This message edited by toopol at 12:38 PM, June 20th (Monday)]

I'd like to chime in about your evolving view of the situation and the friends thing...

I have observed that many of us go through an evolution following DDay that includes reforming and shaping our views of people and relationships, along with many other tributaries that fed into those views. A paradigm shift, if you will. My point is, you are slowly beginning to see and accept who she truly is, what that means about your views of relationships, what that means about your views about others capabilities, etc.

What I have come to realize, in my own situation and I think many others' as well, is that these people are out there (manipulators, liar, cheaters, etc.) and only a small percentage of them are willing to do the hard work to better themselves. I have also realized that due to my morals and values, I am not willing to be friends with anyone who is that way and is not making an active attempt to better themselves.

I used the river metaphor because I think it is a good one. A body of flowing water, when faced with an obstacle, will find a way around it. Typically it will take the easiest path, but if forced, it will carve a new one...not until every "easy" option is exhausted will it force it's way through to a new path. To relate that to the post-infidelity evolution, our minds are faced with a wall and we are incapable of continuing down our "planned path". We are forced to find a new one: D, R or continue living in hell? Our minds will begin to try to carve new views. It will attempt to reshape our understanding of life, of our choices, decisions, beliefs, etc. I call it an evolution because it is a drawn out process of mulling over many possible paths...like the river, our minds will try to start down many of the easy paths, only to discover that they too are blocked/wrong. Many that we try are:

1. He/She did it, but they were not being themselves at the time.

2. He/She did it, but they weren't thinking clearly. It was an accident.

3. He/She did it, but they are sorry and will never do it again.

4. He/She did it, but that doesn't make them a bad person. Now that they see my pain, they won't continue to lie or manipulate me.

5. I can't be with him/her, but we can remain friends.

6. We will still have mutual friends, so we should remain amicable.

The list goes on. We try the easy paths because they will hopefully be the quickest and easiest way out of our pain. It is our minds way of trying to make sense of what is happening to us. We eventually have to realize that all of those ideas are wrong. This person chose to lie, manipulate and betray you in the worst way possible. It will take them a very long time to fix themselves and that will only happen if they are willing to do the incredibly hard work involved. Also, and I know many disagree, but it is not good for the BS to be there during this process. The BS should move on and find strength and healing in themselves. Once they see if the WS has changed, THEN they can decide to give another chance.

The reason this is all so important about your friends also is that, if they are your true friends, they will remain loyal and supportive of you. These people that you consider your friends should be people who challenge you, who support you and most of all, who serve as living examples of the good person you are and want to be. Would you think that good people would be friends with a person who betrayed you so deeply with no remorse or attempt to better herself. My advice would be, if they choose her, they can have her.

You are being incredibly strong through all of this and as things go on, you will see more and more that you are doing what is best. Some of these realizations, like the examples I gave above, take people years and yet we have seen you work through many in a matter of days. You are demanding love and respect and unless she and her friends can give it to you, they do not deserve a place in your life. there is a line that says something like, "you can't lose a good man/woman to someone else". I think that applies to all relationships we encounter. If they are truly good for you, you won't be able to lose them to someone else.

[This message edited by StrongHeart at 12:59 PM, June 20th (Monday)]

I wanted to get her approval on...

Full stop! think about what you've said here.

Tell your friends your honest story! Sometimes it's about YOU!

... and take some of the crap in the apartment that you really want! She's taken more from you.

As you are yet still considering the CC session, I like the idea of running it by the counselor first.

[This message edited by antlered at 1:05 PM, June 20th (Monday)]

1. He/She did it, but they were not being themselves at the time.

2. He/She did it, but they weren't thinking clearly. It was an accident.

3. He/She did it, but they are sorry and will never do it again.

4. He/She did it, but that doesn't make them a bad person. Now that they see my pain, they won't continue to lie or manipulate me.

5. I can't be with him/her, but we can remain friends.

6. We will still have mutual friends, so we should remain amicable.

Ugh. I relate to this so hard. What's #7? Spoil me.