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Here's the thing Toopol - you're not a couple anymore. You don't want to solve your relationship problems. You just want to move on. And, because you're a thinking, caring person, you want to move on with as little rancor as possible.

I'm not sure about the logistics, you're talking about hanging up if things aren't good. The thing is, I'm not sure that the two of you in the same room is a good idea. In fact, since she's a clinger, I'm certain you shouldn't be in the same room with her.

So I would advise that you only have single counseling sessions from here on out. It probably sucks to your Ex that she suddenly can't see you or talk to you anymore. But honestly, what was she doing breaking NC, having sex, lying, etc. And don't feel bad about it. Remember, she CHOSE to do those things. She actually made a CHOICE to send you a breakup email. She doesn't deserve a chance to have another talk with you. it's best if you minimize contact as much as possible. clean break bro. she knows why. she just doesn't like it. she thinks she can talk you out of it.

[This message edited by mike7 at 11:10 AM, June 21st (Tuesday)]

There is no such thing as closure.

Any further counseling with this woman is without purpose. Given that it will HURT you, why engage in the activity.

Call the CC and let him/her know that you're terminating. There is no couple to counsel.

I think if these are logistics you *must* figure out (and I don't mean what to tell friends - you don't need your exgirlfriend's permission or some formal announcement to give to people), then I can see how it would be useful to do it right after her individual counseling. This way you don't have to hash it out on the phone with her at another time or in person. She may not be able to accept it's over right now, or when she first gets back. And having an individual conversation with her on things will just be a foot dragging session with her. So having the CC moderating the discussion to make sure the logistics are hashed out, it might be useful to do it with that kind of mediation.

And then be *done.* Don't let it turn into a discussion of you guys, her infidelity, etc. It needs to just be a simple logistics of *musts* (i.e. splitting property, canceling lease, etc) that can't be handled via a short and simple email.

And again, stash an equal a mount of money you are paying that counselor into a fund for *you*

[This message edited by Lark at 11:37 AM, June 21st (Tuesday)]

Definitely make your own decisions, we only have the information you give us, you know what is best for you.

If you do participate, I'm glad it's via video. You can make it very clear that this will not be a discussion of the relationship AT ALL and simply close the window if it becomes unproductive.

Stay strong and dignified. Because you are a caring person, you are going to see she is in pain. You need to fight the urge to rescue her. She needs to become a better person, and you can help her best by ending it cleanly and definitively (which I feel you have already done, which is why I think the CC is redundant and unfair for both of you to go through). Don't give her any hint that she has a chance. She needs to see the damage she causes to herself (and of course others...but she can only focus on herself right now) with her selfish decisions. She needs to see what she loses. Help her (and yourself) by staying true to what you know you deserve.

There is no such thing as closure.

There sure as hell is. (Haha, not meant to be mean and I totally respect that there wasn’t for you, but I strongly disagree). Each time that I began to doubt the capabilities of my XWH, and would attempt to engage in reasonable discussion or conversation regarding our situation, I would be reminded that it is not possible. Through repeated attempts on my part to be rational, cordial, etc. I truly realized and accepted who his is and learned to fully detach from trying and caring. I am stubborn that way. I had to see and understand for myself. For me, it was the clearest and best form of closure I could receive. It took me only 7 months post DDay to get all the “closure” I needed and I filed for D. I have never been more confident of a decision in my life, nor have I felt better or stronger after making one. Not once have I looked back at our relationship longingly and I have entirely emotionally detached from him and any desire for him. I'd say that's closure.

Toopol, hence, my #7: Surely this person that I have devoted so much to will be compassionate and reasonable enough to discuss logistics of our situation with me.

[This message edited by StrongHeart at 8:57 PM, June 21st (Tuesday)]

Just got back from the CC session. Blaaaaaah.

The original plan was for the counselor to talk to her for an hour before I got there (there were two sessions back-to-back), then just talk logistics. But there was some technical trouble with the video chat and it all got started really late. They only talked for about 10 minutes before I came in, and my ex-girlfriend immediately started demanding to know why she doesn't even deserve the opportunity to talk about getting another chance.

I didn't waver, and I tried to put it to bed quickly with some blunt statements (e.g. "we tried for long enough and I've made up my mind", "I don't owe you an explanation", "I'm done and I'm not open to talking about it further"). Of course, she didn't accept it. She got angry (which was a blessing, since it didn't make me feel much sympathy for her) and kept trying to get me to engage further. Soon, the counselor took over and talked with her for a long while, saying that "there's no coming back from this" and that I've explained enough and that I'm clearly done. My ex-girlfriend said she felt like we were ganging up on her.

I think it might be helpful in the long run: they're going to keep having solo sessions, and now they can refer back to this, having both seen my resolution. But I was miffed that I was brought into this conversation after having said that I just wanted to talk logistics (and I expressed that displeasure during the call). The counselor gave reasons for why she allowed it, but I haven't scheduled any future appointments and I'm very glad to be seeing someone else next week.

With the counselor's insistence, we did eventually start talking about logistics a little bit. But we didn't make much progress, and my ex-girlfriend eventually said that she was incredibly stressed out and not prepared to have the conversation. We agreed to work over email.

At the end of the call, my ex-girlfriend apologized for "behaving badly in this conversation" and began to cry. About 10 minutes after the session, my ex-girlfriend texted me this:

I'm sorry I haven't been respecting your boundaries. I wasn't trying to be disrespectful. I was trying to show you how much I wanted this and how much I believed I could change things and make it work. Anyways, I understand that you aren't willing to reconsider. I still think it's unfair to me that you won't talk to me about it, even though you believe you're doing me a favor, but I know I can't make you do anything. So I will stop trying to contact you. Please let me know when you're ready to try to be friends again.

I promise I'll be more mature the next time we talk than I was this time. I am just in a really stressful place. Everything is 10x harder when you're in a place like this. I hope you can try to understand how difficult it is for me to be going through this in [country], with no option to be with friends or family or anyone who cares about me or has known me for more than a month. Anyways, I'll be less emotional in the future. I'm sorry I wasn't able to be a bigger person this time.

Also, I know you could be a lot meaner about all of this if you wanted to, and you probably feel entitled to be as well. So thanks for not just taking everything or trashing my stuff or torching the apartment.

I responded to her (I know, I know) with this:

Thanks, [name]. It's okay. Breakups are always hard, this one far more than most, and I wish it weren't happening while you're in such a stressful setting.

I'll email you about splitting stuff when you get home. We'll stay apart for a while, but I do hope to see you again at [activities] and [events] later on.

I know most of you think it's a bad idea to see her again at all, but I don't want to be run out of town or to lose all the things I liked about my old life! And I do think there's some hope that reality will set in once she gets home. I'll keep my distance for as long as I need to, and we'll see if she keeps to her promise to stop contacting me.

[This message edited by toopol at 7:26 PM, June 21st (Tuesday)]

You dangled the carrot in front of her.

i don't think you did too badly. It was good you restated your resolve in front of both them. But I would have been pissed off at your counselor. It was like they set a trap for you.

going forward I think you need to minimize contact. Nothing personal, just business, and don't get dragged into a face to face.

I may be wrong, but it appears that your Ex is the demonstrative one in your former relationship. If that's the case, she will always think she can convince you to do what she wants. And she'll keep striving for a face to face conversation. So avoid her like the plague. She may even stalk you for a while.

good luck.

eta - alaska is right, you did dangle a carrot.

[This message edited by mike7 at 7:41 PM, June 21st (Tuesday)]

Sorry that it went this way Toopol but it was to be expected. I'm amazed you were able to be the bigger person after an email like that. She brought this on herself, what did she expect was going to happen. Her email was very self-centred.

Hang in there Toopol you did as best as you could with an awful situation.

Have you read the 180 in the healing library?

Toopol, at this point, be very careful about "hopes" for the future, even if just niceties. They aren't kind, really; they give false hope and will very likely result in redoubled efforts, on her part, to change your mind.

She's acting like a spoiled child, believing you owe her another chance. You don't. My husband was gobsmacked I wasn't going to be best friends with him any more—I told him that friends don't harm one another the way he harmed me. Just as I always had–before we got married, I told him if we broke up it would be due to something catastrophic. He created the catastrophes and of course I wished it were different. I still loved him. Now I can't imagine being friends. Cordial if necessary? Sure. But the feelings do die.

Telling her you'll be her friend later? Well, wait for later and see how you feel.

Strongheart, I think we've got a semantics thing going on. By your definition, I got "closure," too. But I don't think that's what most relatively new BSs consider to be closure. Most don't consider surrendering to what a person is and accepting there are no answers to be closure—they consider getting those answers to be necessary. And in that sense, there is no closure, because there are no satisfying answers.

[This message edited by solus sto at 8:12 PM, June 21st (Tuesday)]

I think you should be very careful with how you word things. She has indicated time and time again that she wants to have hope on fixing this, and telling her you hope to see her at events may feed that. She doesn't need blurry boundaries.

Also, it's mindboggling that she thinks it isn't "fair" that you wouldn't engage more and she wants you to feel sympathy that she's away from home. Just.. z&^#*#$% crazymaking. Don't let her draw you into that kind of dynamic. SHE chose to cheat. SHE chose to go back there. She then CHOSE to engage in a bunch of cruel shenanigans where she talked *to you* about her options and needing to explore possibilities, while bcc'ing her AP, who oh-yeah she was already having sex with again. SHE chose all of that. If she wanted a bunch of shoulders to cry on, maybe SHE shouldn't have chosen to do torch her entire life while she was thousands of miles away. You then tell her you wish it wasn't while she was away - she is the one who chose to do all of this while away!

Be reflective of the dynamic.

Agree with Alaska.

Why do you even have to discuss logistics? You moved out.

Not a good idea to be her "friend." Friends don't do what she did to you twice.

Not to worry, she will be dating someone else within two weeks. I am guessing she has already created a n online dating profile

She will also see om at least once more as they ended on good terms

You need to cut her out of your life or she will destroy you. Listen to your parents, they know

You also need to remember that you're going to meet someone else too and she's going to knock your socks off. So much that you won't even need to see a therapist while you're dating! Imagine that. But you exwgf isn't going to be happy with that at all since you have opened up the possibility of a friendship somewhere down the road. And you really don't need your ex fucking up your next relationship.

Look brother, you are breaking up and moving on. The truth about this is you are not going to be able to remain friends. Your aren't going to be able to continue to hang out in the same social circles.

You aren't going to be able to stay in the same sports leagues, and hang out at the same restaurants. You need to make a clean break and move on with your life. Anything else will be torture for you and her also. She needs to be cut 100% loose.

T/J

And in that sense, there is no closure, because there are no satisfying answers.

ah, gotcha, and I agree with you that there is no satisfying answer there. Btw, really didn't mean any disrespect as I very much value your opinion and posts.

End T/J

Toopol, I am continually impressed by the way you conduct yourself. Is it ideal? No, but I don't know that that is possible while navigating this type of pain.

Keep up the good work and keep your focus on what you deserve, how you deserve to be treated and loved and how she has shown nothing but the opposite of that.

Good idea about discontinuing with that counselor. Hope you can find a great one to help you process. You're going to be more than okay!

[This message edited by StrongHeart at 8:56 PM, June 21st (Tuesday)]

Dude. You're the cat. I don't even know, man.

Stay NC for the rest of her trip and don't be alone with her after her return. I've seen her kind of crazy around here before, and it's just not going to go well.

And yes, I said crazy. She's not being rational at all, in any way, and that's not going to get better for a long, long time. She did it to herself, and you're not responsible for it. Hell, honey, she is even complaining that the place she's in is really stressful -- and she PLANNED A BREAKUP WITH YOU WHILE SHE WAS THERE. That's the absolute worst job of planning I've ever seen.

I'm sorry you got ambushed at the counselor's. Just stay NC now and, like I said, no more private meetings (and I'd like to suggest no more private conversations just to keep her in check for a while, but you're not going to listen to that and we both know it).

Hang in there. When do you leave for your folks' house? Do you have a friend or two lined up to keep you out and busy while you're there?

Brings back my memories of high school.

Thanks, everybody. It's true, I'm having a hard time accepting the idea that we can't ever be around each other. I always imagined that, after a breakup, we'd both be in pain for a while, but we'd both "make space" for the other as we moved on. In the last few days, I've been working under the assumption that her emotional reaction is a temporary one, and that she'll gradually revert back to a respectful, sensible attitude. (Her current desperation isn't sustainable in any case.) Her latest texts were calm and apologetic (if still self-centered), and I think things might calm down more once she gets back home and truly starts her life without me, so I'm still holding out hope. It's only been a few days, after all. But I'm hearing that things might turn out to be more problematic, and maybe I don't want to risk it.

Toopol, at this point, be very careful about "hopes" for the future, even if just niceties. They aren't kind, really; they give false hope and will very likely result in redoubled efforts, on her part, to change your mind.

I see your point. That makes me sad. I really am trying to be kind, but it's tough when I also believe that someone needs to separate from me. During the session there were a lot of moments when I wanted to correct her by saying certain things (e.g. "I still care about you" or "of course I haven't forgotten the good times"), but I realized it would do much more harm than good at this point. Now I'm a little worried that her grand plan is still to earn another chance with me, and "respecting boundaries" is just an early stage in that.

Hang in there. When do you leave for your folks' house? Do you have a friend or two lined up to keep you out and busy while you're there?

I leave very soon! And I'm looking forward to it. I don't have many friends in that area, but my brother will be around, and I'll be in phone contact with some other people.

Truth is, I'm actually doing a lot better than I would've expected. I've barely cried and I've really enjoyed talking to my friends and family about it. I've taken time off and I'm indulging myself with food and movies. Honestly, I feel relieved! I'm afraid that the sadness is going to hit me in a big wave, but that's not yet on the horizon. It's like I got all my grief out after the first confession.

You don't need to make huge decisions right now about never seeing her again *or* being friends.

Just be very clear with your boundaries *now* and don't talk about the future with her at all.

Clear, to the point, and that's it. No comforting or hoping or anything. You don't have to be mean. "i understand you are in pain, but we are done. I will email you if I need to figure out furtehr logistics, and that is it."