SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Yes, even after this fucking quagmire of suckyness I have waded through, I still believe in love. I can understand your emotional exhaustion at this point, wwtl. I agree that love is not enough, but I believe that love should be given every chance to survive.

So five years of suffering and trying isn't enough? You advocate for this this man to suck it up even longer, because you are a sucker for fantasy and romance novels?

I don't feel anyone is going to sway wwtl one way or the other. If his DD's can't, if his WW, whom he professes to love, can't sway him, don't worry, folks. Certainly not some random chick on a surviving infidelity forum board is going to change his mind to give it a chance before he leaves. Woot Woot, yay divorce! Fuck love!

Yeah, WOOT, WOOT, FUCK LOVE!!! Are you Goddamned serious. A man that tried for 5 years after his wife carried out an affair against him? And because he is unable to live with it... then it is fuck love?

So now you throw in your Goddamned trump card. He is using this as an excuse to rug sweep. He did the best he could, and he simply can't reconcile with the infidelity he was dealt with. That isn't rug sweeping. And if you think it is, you seriously need to reevaluate your thinking.

To everyone...

Seriously.

You advocate for this this man to suck it up even longer, because you are a sucker for fantasy and romance novels?

SMs is hardly a 'sucker for fantasy and romance novels'.

I agree with her. As we age, we realize that our family means more than anything.

Perhaps that's *your* wife you're thinking about, longforgotten?

A man that tried for 5 years after his wife carried out an affair against him?

'Carried out an affair against him'??

Rarely does the WS consider the BS when having an affair.

It really is *not* *about* *the BS*.

[This message edited by FinallyHappy at 6:09 AM, August 26th (Friday)]

This is not about good versus evil, it is about whether or not a marriage can continue.

I get where op is coming from and wish him well.

I am not sure why pointing things out about his ww means she is being attacked.

This is nothing more than human behavior and has norms.

In most cases om does not matter and could have been any number of men. Too much focus on Om.

In most cases the Om is not viable. Om in this case was much younger and was not going to leave his wife and kids. The fact the a ended is no shock as his ww understood this.

Most affairs end when the light comes on. What is troubling is his ww continued after the other workers knew. This suggests some deeper issue that ww had with op.

His ww had five years to fix her m and herself, she did neither until it was too late.

when people come into the jfo forum who have been cheated on we tell them it wasnt their fault.

the ws could have asked for counseling, talked with the spouse, begged and pleaded, divorced, and a whole slew of other things. we tell them that cheating isnt one of the alternatives.

if OP decided he wanted a divorce on day 1 thats his right. if he decides that he wanted one on year 5 thats also his right. he can have good or bad reasons but they shouldnt matter to us because they are his reasons and he, as a mentally capable adult, is allowed to forge his own destiny and make his own decisions.

we always say sometimes an A is a deal breaker. period. no matter what the ws says, does, or wants afterwards that decision sits with the bs. can they come to acceptance with the A or not? and sometimes are they even willing to try? id say OP tried for 5 years and couldnt.

maybe hes got the patience of a saint in trying and hoping for 5 years while just knowing in his gut it just wouldnt work or mayb hes dumb as a box of rocks and couldnt figure out for 5 years what he felt. does it matter?

he has a right to divorce if he wants to. he should also expect our support. or does the automatic deal breaker of infidelity only apply right after d-day and only for an unremorseful spouse?

do what you need to do in order to heal. thats his priority.

What I find interesting is people supporting the OP in his plan to go out and get laid while still keeping his wife dangling with the hope of reconciliation. That isn't considered infidelity here?

Also, where is there any indication in his posts that he ever seriously intended to pursue the possibility of reconciliation? It isn't a one-way street. If a person agrees to pursue the possibility of staying together, both have an obligation to be honest with each other, and both have to participate in the effort. I can't see a single bit of honesty, or effort in the poster.

[This message edited by Veub at 10:07 AM, August 26th (Friday)]

There are people on this thread who have supported wwtl to go ahead and casually date as long as he is honest about what he is doing with his dates. They feel his marriage was killed 5 years ago, Veub. I didn't go back and do a count but there are a significant number of others who suggest to him that he wait until divorced before striking out. That is the camp I'm in.

I have no idea where you're coming from when you say he never seriously intended to reconcile. As a BH I have waited almost 3 years for my WW to show she was all in, that she would do the work needed. I was there hoping, praying, helping, whatever that she would step up to the plate. She hurt me immeasurably and I couldn't risk going all in because I couldn't take another hit like that. She needed to show me that she was safe, she was all in, she was entirely committed to R. She hasn't. The TT, while slowing down tremendously still happens (I didn't think it was important, I forgot all about it).

wwtl's WW continued to deny and TT up until just very recently. It isn't 5 years. The clock gets reset. She apparently has been reading his posts and all of the comments for a considerable amount of time and it never occurred to her that her continued TT was distructive, that to be all in was required. Wwtl knew, intuitively that she was lying but she continued to deny. Tell me, Veub, how that is seriously persuing R on her part. Still trying to control the outcome. That isn't R and a BS has those gut feelings and maybe even a little proof and can't be all in because of that - risk, danger, more injury ahead.

And, in the end, maybe it won't matter. Maybe the adultery was, in fact, a deal breaker. Perhaps, with yeoman effort and patience, it's finally discovered that R simply can't happen. I'm happy in my case that I tried, that I just didn't end it right away. Had there been true remorse, honesty, commitment from WW maybe it would have been different, maybe not. (We are still together but only hanging on (me) by my finger nails.) The length of time it has taken to get here has provided a huge weight to ever really R'ing. And even if everything was a text book case of perfect R maybe it would still have been a deal breaker.

Would I advise wwtl to just go for it? No. Personally I think it is the wrong thing to do but I can only provide input to him based on my biases. He has to make the decision and live with the consequences.

I don't know where you are coming from, Veub, and your profile doesn't provide any information.

I suggested earlier in this thread that,because he had been holding back his feelings, he could try again, this time not holding anything back.

In the light of the newly confessed TT,it would seem to me that OP felt, in his gut, that she was still lying(because..really..that's what TT is..it's Just a prettier was of saying continued lying), and that's why he withheld his feelings. He didn't feel safe. And,clearly, with good reason.

I think it's obvious, given what he was working with..a still lying WW...He did try to reconcile with her. But, you can't R with a lying Ws. This R failed because his ww was still lying..not because the bs wasn't trying.

DS thanks for warning shot. Not so much for me as I can weed out what I want from this, but for my wife who has been devastated by some of the posts that were unfairly brutal. This is a bad time for her and the better place she is in when I leave next month the better I can move on. I can't tell you what a bad place she is in right now, and frankly I am beginning to regret posting. Me getting this off my chest isn't worth the pain it has caused for her.

Sister M, you have made some great posts, but I disagree on my plan goi g forward as rugs weeping. A good case could be made that that's what we did in the past, we just went on with life while my wound festered. You could call what I am doing as running away from the problem, but it is now front and center. Not hidden anymore.

I have seen EMDR mentioned here, and I looked it up, but I am not sure I buy into it.

Veub, I don't know your story and you certainly don't know mine. I wanted to walk in the beginning and she begged me to stay. I offered a generous divorce months ago and she didn't want that either. I will reiterate that I really did nothing wrong unless gutting something you may not think is right for your family is a crime.

(1/4) “I was in charge of 250 Marines during my second deployment. We were assigned to a district called Sangin. Most of Afghanistan’s poppy was grown there, and the heroin it produced funded the Taliban’s war effort. We didn’t have a clear mission. Our job was to establish a ‘presence.’ We were supposed to make the Taliban as uncomfortable as possible. Our mission wasn’t to take any hills or to kill a certain number of enemy combatants. And that lack of clarity could be frustrating. Guys were getting killed but we had no concrete ways to measure our gains. The best I could do was tell them that our mission was to ‘make Sangin a better place.’ Every day I’d send them on patrols. I’d sit in a small mud room, square like this, with maps on the walls and a radio on the table. And the patrols would call back if they needed support. Some days it was chaos in that room. Multiple patrols would come under fire at the same time and they’d all be calling at once. We lost nine guys over those six months. Dozens more lost arms or legs. Others had serious gunshot wounds. I remember sitting on an ammo canister the day before we left, with my head between my knees, wondering if we’d done anything at all. And a village elder came up to the gates of our base. He wanted to thank us for making the area safe enough so that his village could finally return to their homes. That was the only tangible difference that I’d seen in six months. It was the ray of light I needed.”

(

2/4) ‘If you don’t do your job, people will die.’ That message was hammered into our heads during officer training. Even if you tied your boots incorrectly, an officer might get in your face and scream: ‘You don’t care about details! Details get people killed in combat! You’re going to get people killed!’ Over and over, it was drilled into me that people would die if I messed up. And nine of my guys died. So it’s been extremely hard to forgive myself. Maybe I didn’t work hard enough. Maybe I didn’t set high enough standards. Maybe I didn’t put enough stress on the importance of details. The first guy in my company who died stepped on a bomb that was hidden under a footbridge. That was a rule. That was a detail. We were never supposed to walk over footbridges. He knew that. Maybe I didn’t tell him enough times. I can see his face right now. If he was sitting here, I’d say: ‘Mike. You weren’t supposed to do that. You know you weren’t supposed to do that!’"

(3/4) “Sometimes my anxiety would get so bad that I’d turn completely white. I’d shoot out of bed some nights, and my heart would be racing, and I’d start running around the room trying to find stuff. My wife would have to physically put me back to bed. Then one day I was taking a train out of Hoboken, and we were passing through these wetlands, and there were all these reeds, and it reminded me of Afghanistan. And I looked down at my phone and there was a Facebook post commemorating the anniversary of the death of a guy in my company. And I got dizzy and couldn’t talk. I thought I was having a heart attack. I just couldn’t take it anymore. I had to get help. I went to the emergency room at the VA and was diagnosed with PTSD. Eventually I found my way to Headstrong Project. At first I dreaded going to therapy. I went through a treatment called EMDR. My therapist would take me back to every point of trauma and have me describe it in detail. It was like literally going back in time. I could touch the faces of all the guys I’d lost. I could talk to them. We could talk about what happened. And how we all knew the risks. And how sometimes people died. And it was nobody’s fault. And I could apologize to them. And when it was over I’d be completely exhausted. And I’d feel like a bitch because I’d just cried for an hour. But it worked. The symptoms started to go away. After a few sessions, I remember walking into my therapist’s office and saying: ‘This stuff actually works!’ And he said: ‘Yeah. It does.’”

I get "Humans of New York" on my FB feed. Brandon, whose FB page this is, is a photojournalist. He is doing a project on war vets. The above story is from one of the vets he profiled named Chris. If EMDR could work for Chris and the severe trauma he has endured I really feel it could work for you. As BS's we are actually very traumatized. They even have a term for it, PISD.

Learning about your spouse’s infidelity can be emotionally and physically devastating. The emotional damage is reflected in what some mental health professionals call Post-Infidelity Stress Disorder (PISD), for the stress and emotional turmoil experienced afterward.

Psychologist Dennis Ortman, author of Transcending Post-Infidelity Stress Disorder, describes the term as “not to suggest a new diagnostic category but to suggest a parallel with post-traumatic stress disorder, which has been well documented and researched.”

In Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD), re-experiencing the trauma repeatedly is the first of three categories of symptoms described. The disorder is marked by flashbacks of war for veterans, nightmares of the accident for car wreck survivors, and painful memories of abuse for survivors of intra-familial trauma.

I know and agree that it sounds weird. However, many BS's have tried it and they have all had positive results. I have not read one thread where the BS didn't have a good result. You could start another thread asking about experiences of those who have tried EMDR.

Yeah, I kind of wanted to backtrack on my "rugsweeping" statement. Running away from your problems is a little bit different, but not if you aren't going to deal with your pain. You posted you were just so tired of it all so I hope that doesn't mean that you will not continue with self care to heal your festering wound. I really feel EMDR would be of great benefit for you since you say you have a continual loop going on in your mind. That is awful and I understand how emotionally exhausting that is.

As I said much, much earlier in this thread I wish both you and Mrs.wwtl much peace and serenity on your healing journey's.

Dang wwtl, I have been following this thread, reading much of what you post. You know just as well as I do us waywards aren't exactly everybody's favorite around here. ((mrs.wwtl)) Yeah I feel for her too ugh what kind of support system will she have once you leave? I can literally feel her fear of next month coming up as well. Such dread she must be feeling facing the move. You know we can be very kind over on the wayward side supporting our "own" here on SI and yes tough love too but all in hope of being helpful not hurtful. So obviously she's reading but has she thought about posting? In light of this I'm sure it's the last thing on her mind. But it has been a life saver to many of us. I hope you encourage her to use SI as an outlet. It really could be a positive thing for her.

Anyhow, good luck as you move and find your way back out of this hell hole. And I wish nothing but strength and courage and peace to mrs.wwtl

Thanks sister. I know you have our best interests at heart.

Forever, thanks as a WW for posting and putting yourself out there. You have touched on my biggest fear right now which is her lack of support when I go. My daughters know, but none of our friends or family do.

I am pretty calloused about this whole thing at this point and will make friends playing golf and other activities. I know I will be fine.

She has cut way back on everything she used to like to do such as the gym or social card playing. She is going to need to get out. The house is going to be deadly quiet.

We kept this a big secret for five years. First mostly on her request, then on mine. I was frankly humiliated. I have told her that she can now confide in anyone she wants at this point. She is going to need some friends.

I just want her to wait until I leave. This will be a big shock to our friends who think we are happy. I just don't want to deal with the pressure of our friends wanting to meet with me to change my mind which I know will happen. Easier to cherry pick phone calls, emails and texts which are sure to come after I leave

She doesn't really like social media and she doesn't like this place much so I wouldn't look for a ms wwtl on here

They are adult women and are not trying to hold the family together because she roped them into it. What kids want their parents to split in a situation like this?

*slowly raises hand from the back of the room

A kid that has a front row seat to many painful moments. A kid that sees one of his parents become someone else, a parent that slowly over years becomes a former shell of themselves.

I don't know what your daughter's witnessed, but I witnessed a lot as a teenager and learned first hand what an A did to my FOO. Many times I'm at a loss of how to articulate just exactly what I saw and learned. I'll give it yet another go.

I wanted so badly for my parents to divorce. Difference is though my mother was not remorseful. But I saw first hand the effect that the A had on my father. Myself as well.

I watched a man who was relatively happy go lucky (for the most part) become quiet and even more withdrawn than he already does. It's amazing how the little things strike you. My father used to whistle. There was one tune in particular. I can still hear it in my head. After dday, he never whistled again. The looks that I saw when he thought no one was looking. One in particular that I wrote about on my dday. I was the one to tell my father about the A. I watched the life drain out of him as I gave him all of the details. I will never ever forget that look. I refer to it as "the look" since words do not do it justice. It was/is a target spot for me in my EMDR therapy.

Many other looks that I saw that I would be at a loss to name them all. Degradation, humiliation, embarrassment, shame, mortification, indignity, emasculation, debilitated, sheer exhaustion, and on and on. Him looking disgusted with himself after what I now know is HB. The empath in me can still feel the pain of looking at him go through everything he went through. I watched this go on for 5-6 years before he finally broke himself.

Then of course there's what I learned from my parent's relationshit and my mother's A. I brought trust and abandonment issues into every relationship I have had. "I'm going to get you before you get me" type stuff. Never cheated because I refuse to be anything like mom but certainly have done damage in my own relationships and in my marriage. I learned that all women look for a superstar in the bedroom since the A was highly sexualized and I know all about it. The As certainly taught me a lot.

It was that toxic environment though that I grew up in. Walking on eggshells all the time. Watching for what would happen next, which would usually consist of me catching her again.

So what kid wants their parents to get a D? This one. I can only imagine what types of looks you have given in the past 5 years. The pain that you have gone through. The toxic environment that went on in your house.

You have my empathy wwtl. You've suffered enough.

yop

I guess the good thing is should she decide to do so, she now has the go ahead to confide in whomever she wishes to. Support is paramount for both. I can't blame her for not wanting to reach out here, hell I never thought I would find myself on an internet forum.

I was just curious about the support for her sake. Like you, I think she is going to have to get back out there. A quiet house is going to do her NO good. I just can't help but feel for her ya know? I can so easily put myself in her shoes. And it's daunting, scary, insert shitty feeling and it's there. And of course that goes for you too, as callous as you are to the situation, you are not callous towards her well being.

It's a season you two are going through, something that you need. Something you could call a consequence? Nobody likes em..still they are there. And sistermilkshake..me too..the romantic in me, I hope this ends well, what's the saying? abstinence makes the heart grow fonder I'll always hold onto hope.

I think she would find an enormous amount of support on the wayward forum.

And..not all of us betrayed spouses think the wayward spouses are demons. Some of my very favorite people here on SI are former waywards.

I will be honest in any dating situation I go. If I were divorced tomorrow I would tell who ever I went out with that I am a long long way from getting back into a relationship. In fact right now never being in one looks pretty good. I am smart enough to know that could change, but it would be a long time.

Honesty is definitely the place to start, but I have to warn you that most quality women simply aren't going to waste their time with a guy who is married, much less one who isn't actively engaged in the divorce process. I don't know exactly how important experiencing a different relationship is in terms of making a long term decision with regard to your WW, but I think you are kind of setting yourself up for failure in this department.

D, fully detach, date and only return to your ex-WW if after giving the alternative a shot you can say that she is your best option. Anything else is a half-measure with the usual success rate one associates with half-measures.

You have touched on my biggest fear right now which is her lack of support when I go.

She is a big girl; she can handle it. Just assume your wife is a fully capable adult who can find people to confide in without you - I'm even going to suggest you have some solid evidence on this front.

Whether you ultimately wind up with your wife or not - you need to spend some serious time where you are your primary concern. Whatever else is true you clearly aren't ok with the status quo. So find the place you need to be to feel ok with your life and let that state of affairs dictate what you will and won't accept in your relationships.

I'm really not sure why wwtl is considered callous to the situation. IMO he has been far from it. Now Mrs. wwtl could be considered to be callous to the situation considering she has been reading here a long time and continued to TT even understanding it was detrimental to R - continued to deny certain facts wwtl was certain of which hinders R.

This thread is started by wwtl. Not Mrs. wwtl. Support for her could be obtained by her in the Wayward Forum. This thread is about support, challenging, providing suggestions to wwtl.

It may be a daunting, shitty feeling to suffer consequences for one's actions. It's a daunting, shitty, debilitating, emasculating, humiliating, ego destroying, self worth exploding feeling for a BS whose loved one who promised certain things in front of God and witnesses fucks someone else repeatedly and in dispicable ways.

I think most people here are just putting and rubbing salt in the wound.

We are not here to call names to WWtl's FWW, to degrade her to the point where we make her less than a human being or demonize her.

She had an affair, she had sex with OM multiple times, she enjoyed it, she liked (for that time) how the OM humiliated her and WWTL and she is now paying the consequences of her actions. WWTL spent years trying to make it work, he did what he could, could he have done more? yes of course, we all could have done better in our marriages but guess what, we aren't perfect.

The thing that we should be focusing about is WWTl"s FWW recent actions, aka "recruiting" DDs for the sake of helping her make WWTL stay, Her entitlement for "being a model FWW" and primarily helping Waitedwaytoolong find himself and find love again, wherever that love comes from FWW or a new woman. Please don't bash FWW for her past actions, you can criticize yes but don't be offensive and aggressive.

Even though I'm still very new his WW gives me hope that there are truly remorseful people in this world.

[This message edited by Sniper at 11:59 PM, August 26th (Friday)]

wwtl, sorry if I somehow had a part in getting the ball rolling again, it wasn't my intention. The only reason I decided to post was because of this

but for my wife who has been devastated by some of the posts that were unfairly brutal. This is a bad time for her and the better place she is in when I leave next month the better I can move on. I can't tell you what a bad place she is in right now, and frankly I am beginning to regret posting. Me getting this off my chest isn't worth the pain it has caused for her.

and I could feel your pain for her and knowing support for her when you leave was possibly one of your fears and that she will NEED it. I also felt bad that you regret getting this off your chest, no one should be made to feel that way. I thought I was providing support for you not just mrs.wwtl.

steadychevy, you are right, but who am I as a lowly WS to say anything to wwtl about TT and everything a BS is more capable to support him through. And I only used the word callous after wwtl describe himself as such. The way I see it if he is concerned about his WW then support should go to that too.