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I really don't want to hear their pillow talk, what positions they tried, etc. I don't see how it helps and just hurts to hear it.

I felt the same, then I realized it was haunting me if you will. So I asked, I told her to go not step by step but describe if you will.

It was

But surprisingly way less than my imagination. Imagine that (not really).

And as my wayward wife described and I asked quick questions she began to realize that "magical fantasy land fuck stuff" was really just a two dumb ass adults betraying everything and everyone for "nothing absolutely nothing"

So nothing I guess is off the table when you want to work through something. And everything helps. Sometimes it just needs to be the right time. Don't avoid it, if you are "wondering" just ask. Get it over with. The imagery and imagination is killer.

Thanks, I've been just not thinking about it. Him being so much older helps I think, haha. It also helps that it was only the one time, so there is less mystery about it for me at least. Ugh.

One piece that isn't sitting well with me this morning is that she told me that her and OM had spoken about how she felt like she "missed out" on her 20s (we dated seriously from 20 on).

Actually, that excuse is rather common on here, how the WW missed out on something like this, usually sexually missed out.

So basically she talked to the OM rather personally. I am betting there was more sex than she has told you, and that drinking was not always involved.

She seems to remember more than she has ever told you she remembers.

Let her keep talking, the more she opens up, the more you learn and get an insight to her.

She acts as if she wants to be honest, so don't shut her down at this time.

At this point, you should get her a spiral notebook and a nice pen and have her write down a complete timeline of everything, thoughts, acts, etc.

Writing is better than the computer, because using Word can be edited and writing, you can see her cross things out she didn't want to admit to.

One piece that isn't sitting well with me this morning is that she told me that her and OM had spoken about how she felt like she "missed out" on her 20s (we dated seriously from 20 on).

Actually, you could look at her and tell her, that means that I (meaning you) missed out on everything in your 20s also. Ask her how she feels about you also missing out on everything.

I don't look at it as I "missed out" on anything. I CHOSE to date her through my whole 20s. If I felt like I missed out, I could have just dumped her and had the experience she is referring to. She wrote me out a timeline a few months ago.

It also helps that it was only the one time

"So, I wanted to reach out to you sooner, but one I didn’t want to do it while you were on your trip. I didn’t want anything to ruin your vacation. I truly hope you had an amazing time. I still think you're in incredible person and I only want the best for you. The other reason I didn’t reach out sooner was because I kinda don’t know what to say, and to be honest thought you might reach out to me first. At this point, I just need to know a couple of things, like what happened and why you did what you did? I’m not angry or upset with you. To be honest, I’m just feeling a little foolish because I trusted you so completely. I didn’t think there was anything we couldn’t work out between us. And after our last conversation in my office I felt like things were going to be really good between us.

I know you aren’t good at communicating when it comes to your feelings but I really hope you can take a min and tell me why and what happened that things had to come to this. I know you cared for me at one time, and I’m hoping that you can at least tell me what happened. I think I deserve that."

To be honest my friend, that must have been an awfully good one time to get him that deeply involved.

I truly hope I'm wrong, but it just doesn't add up.

Strength

Let her keep talking, the more she opens up, the more you learn and get an insight to her.

She acts as if she wants to be honest, so don't shut her down at this time.

Yup and make sure she feels safe in sharing... You learn a lot when someone thinks its okay to talk.

To be honest my friend, that must have been an awfully good one time to get him that deeply involved.

I truly hope I'm wrong, but it just doesn't add up.

As I come off my hangover. I agree with this and wonder just how much he knew she had revealed to you the affair. It is almost like he didn't even know it was over or you knew about it. But I recall you saying you saw the text messages to him from her etc... So confusing this is. Or something just doesn't add up (which is more likely). She may have told him you were on to her but didn't know all and just to "disregard" those texts etc.. Who knows waywards are just plain evil and lie.

But from his message alone. It wasn't just once.

And yes, she can still portray she is doing and saying all the right things to you. Being remorseful, IC, talks, opening up, etc... Because hey it doesn't matter now and she can avoid it and hide it and still be a better person.... But that tumor/cancer of being authentic and vulnerable and honest and open still remain elusive... secrets

[This message edited by sneaker at 11:54 AM, December 2nd (Friday)]

Yup and make sure she feels safe in sharing... You learn a lot when someone thinks its okay to talk.

That is really the truth, especially if you want to reconcile.

Realize, prolonged TT and lying will lead you to resent her forever. No one likes to be lied to on and on.

Yes, considering the level of their communications, it was more than just once.

She seemed to feel comfortable with him and that 99% of the time leads to more than one time...not to mention this guy is a known player. She led him on and he led her on.

All a game really, which is something most of us cannot understand, because we are not players and never have been.

No, she said she told him when she told me. She told me she had spoken to him about her moving out when she told me because she wasn't sure if I was going to kick her out and she wasn't going to live with him. They had a relationship to a certain extent. That much is clear. Sex once, twice, ten times, idc. It's completely irrelevant unless she's lying about it.

It's completely irrelevant unless she's lying about it.

Exactly, you said it!

Sex once, twice, ten times, idc. It's completely irrelevant unless she's lying about it.

Yes, sex is sex, 1 time or 50 times, it is at this time all about her ability to lie to you.

I feel that if she feels she can lie today, what will stop her from lying in the future, whether it is about another affair or the bank account.

Liars at not fun to live with.

Yes, sex is sex, 1 time or 50 times, it is at this time all about her ability to lie to you.

I feel that if she feels she can lie today, what will stop her from lying in the future, whether it is about another affair or the bank account.

Liars at not fun to live with.

^^^^^ This this this.

It's completely irrelevant unless she's lying about it.

Yep. That's the point. Have you by chance read Josephs letter in the Healing Library?

I have been following this for a long time. This is going to sound tough - there is a lot that doesn't make sense, red flags, things don't add up, etc. I don't think your WW was truthful with you or OM, and I think she is still not being truthful.

OM should not have carried on with a married woman but WW is equally at blame, she took the vows, she knew it was wrong, who knows what she told OM about her marriage situation.

She should have quit her job from the get go, she should have been honest from the get go. All this could have been avoided.

I think WW led two men on and destroyed both of them.

I hope you are right, and she is remorseful, but I have a feeling you don't have the truth.

Have you by chance read Josephs letter in the Healing Library?

That is a great letter to print out and give it to your wife.

It is under Articles in the healing library.

DM - I think the point folks are trying to get across to you is that as outside observes to your situation your wayward's continues to make little sense. She is contiuing to lie to you. If them having sex one or hundred times is not the problem, then that is fine. Everyone is different and has different lines in the sand on that.

The most important point is a successful reconciliation CANNOT be based on lies. That should be what worries you and what I think has all of us worried for you... You are taking almost everything on her word and her word alone.

The OM should not have got involved with a married woman and has paid a price by loosing his job. I feel no sympathy for him. However your wife was a full participant in that and she got to keep her job. She very much dodged taking any responsibility there.

I do not for a moment believe her version of what happened between her and the OM. What I suspect happened was she only ended up going to HR because she felt pressured to do something by you and most likely embellished the story (lied) to get the result she knew had to happen to keep you on board.

There is so much more going on here than what she is telling you.

Your wayward seems to want to get things back on track... but it will never ally happen without honesty. I still think you have the potential to truly reconcile - but right now it seems like you would be building on a by questionable foundation... If you accepts her improbable story then you are setting yourself up for a false reconciliation and potential future problems.

For your sake and honestly for hers too - you need to be a lot more proactive and forceful about getting the truth. That does not mean you necessarily have to get every single gory detail if you don't want it - but her story now is so unbelievable you don't even have the cliffs notes version of what happened.

DM, I would definitely put her post A attitude in the category of cake eating even if she admitted to you after the fact.

She is minimizing. This is not good, this can stop healing dead in it's tracks. Look, you don't want the extreme details. I get it, too much too process, but be careful. IMO there is a difference from "we just kissed" to we had full blown sex, and that was just the tip of the iceberg.

Just by chance OM was honest to her in that letter, I read that and saw a lot of unanswered questions. Now maybe she is underestimating you, that you won't see it; but what does your gut say, not anyone here. How did you feel when reading it? You don't have to say it.

You are still at the beginning of healing, this is like a "raw wound" that has to heal from the inside out. The emotional poison has to leach out.

It is why, what long time posters are trying to warn you. I partly know what they are talking about.

Imagine the year 2020, this whole thing is behind you. You are 4years into R, you hardly think about it now.

An event is going to happen, either she is going to slip up on answering a question or you're going to attending her XMAS party, and someone who knows is going to say something, maybe just out of earshot. You were not suppose to hear it, but everyone is buzzed, and people start to talk louder. It's something that there was more than you knew what was going on.

She just didn't have a PA, this was emotional also. And maybe more than she wants to share.

The truth matters now more than ever. If you find out something, doesn't have to be sexual, it could be personal/emotional level -- 4 years go down the drain.

It's a matter of building trust, which leads to respect, then love to a stable marriage for both of you.

I feel right now you are rushing, trying to take short cuts..."I want this mess behind me, so I(we) can move forward".

Stuff like this: I want to believe her, I don't care about the details, it doesn't matter -- is a form of denial. Make sure you are looking at this with your eyes open, don't delude yourself into feeling better. It will cost you in the long run.

If I had known I could have polygraph my wife back when this happen to me, I would have done it in a heartbeat. No kidding.

I don't care if she confessed, when she did confess it was minimal "kissing, no sex" "we talked nothing happened".

Everyone here in the beginning said bull, she's lying. It's why they are saying this to you now.

Remember she had to lie to you to do the A, why all of sudden, you believe she is tell the ABSOLUTE truth now.

Right now today, matters more than you think. I know. Don't make this major mistake.

I absolutely agree with almost AffairofPast said.

Your wife is telling you only what you are asking for. You need to know the whole story. The whole damned SORDID story, including details that you do not now appear to want.

Lmao, yea it just gets better and better.... She's taking good steps and seems (at least to me) to be in a better place now after she has told HR. She seems more proactive and sure of what she's doing. I really don't want to hear their pillow talk, what positions they tried, etc. I don't see how it helps and just hurts to hear it.

If not now, sometime you will want to know a lot of stuff you do not know. Details like 1)How many times did they fuck. 2 Where did they fuck. 3) When did it start. 4) How did it start. 5) How often did they fuck. 6) Did she cum every time. 7)Did he cum evey time. 8)Where did he cum (in her pussy, on her face, in her mouth. In her ass. 9) Did she do anal. 10) Condoms or bareback. 11) Did she love him. 12)Did she tell him she loved him. 13)How often did she tell him she loved him.

Get her to put these all in a timetable. Make sure that she knows this is her only chance to tell the truth,ALL the truth.

Then have her take a polygraph. Non-negotiable. She does it or it is over.

That will become your baseline. Anything that trickles out from that point is a problem that could upset the whole applecart.

After reading 43 pages, I am convinced more that ever that your wife has been ANYTHING BUT TRUTHFUL, and to this point has told you only what you wanted to hear.

THERE IS A LOT THAT YOU DON'T KNOW and it is hard to make life-altering decisions knowing only part of the story.

Still believing the "just one time" lie? She had sex first, then gradually throttled back to lesser acts while increasing emotionally?

Sent the response email last night: "Please do not contact me ever again.". I think that will dispel any sense he has that they have a future. WW starts IC tonight. We started our exercises last night but I started feeling super resentful of her (felt like I was spending my Sunday night doing this bullshit because she fucked up, not me.). Things sorta boiled over when she mentioned that her and OM got a glass of wine one evening (was brought up in the context of what triggers her, in this case was a restaurant). I blew up and made her recreate her timeline. Also interrogated her more about what they spoke about in terms of me, us and our marriage. She again said they barely spoke about us. She made a comment about how she never saw him as someone she wanted to be with because he was so okay with cheating. I responded rather not nicely about how she fails to the see the hypocrisy in that statement. She doesn't want him because he cheats, and why the fuck should I want her? I get that he is a serial cheater who doesn't give two shits and maybe she does give half a shit, but she still cheated on me for 3 months before feeling too guilty about it to continue. Fuck that shit. She cried for a while about how it makes her feel like "a piece of shit" when I talk to her that way and that she knows she's a piece of shit but doesn't need to be reminded. I told her that I'm not purposely trying to make her feel bad but when she says that kind of stuff, this is what's immediately in my head and she should fucking think about it before she spouts off bullshit like that. I told her she's not a safe partner atm and statements like that make it clear that she has tons of work to do. I hope she gets it. I've been reading a lot of "chump lady" (thanks self-rescuer!) and a lot of what she says rings true. I'm going to give my wife a chance with IC and doing her exercises but I'm going to be working on getting over the feeling that I used to have. The feeling that I was lucky to have found and been able to marry my wife. I think I should be thinking it more the other way around.