SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I want to ask something you posted a little earlier than this most recent drama. You posted this:

She has told me about other texts she had received from him. At this point, why hide them?

Had she been not telling you other texts until just recently? Was it more of the same?

Now, about the other man's email to your wife about "why did she do it" I think he may honestly wonder WTF? Here is a married young woman who spent a lot of time with her, who was "confused" and had "feelings" for him, got drunk with him, partied with him, and willingly had sex with him multiple times, then continued on hanging out with her. Then when she told him "it's over between us," he didn't give up so easily, asked her why, and she did not give him a straight-forward "NO!" but rather she started crying, like "her husband is making her stop" and "this is stressing her out." So he put his arm around her. She did not jump up and walk away, she let him keep doing it, then said "NO" and he finally stopped.

From his point of view, here is a 50-year-old guy with no wife and not even a girlfriend, who is really "hoping" and "wearing rose-colored glasses" that this hot 30-year-old wants him and is having a "relationship" with him. There is mutual attraction, and back-and-forth texts of how they have "feelings." Then all of a sudden, she says "I don't want you, don't talk to me at all except work." He knows she is trying to end it, and he doesn't want to, and wants to keep hoping and convince her to come back to him.

Now contrast with you. Will you admit that you were wearing the "rose-colored glasses" and did basically the same thing as this other man, in the sense that you wondered why she was doing that to you, and you hoping and thinking that your wife had feelings for you?

Truth of the matter is, she led this guy on, despite the age difference, that old(er) fool who was with the company for 20 years (should have known better) but really miscalculated about her feelings for him. He mistakenly thought that having sex with her multiple times, willing to lie and deceive her husband, meant that he probably loved her and wanted her over her husband, and he was all-too-happy.

I have no sympathy for this guy. None. But neither do I see this guy as "the bad guy." Your wife, and her alone, is the "bad guy" in this love triangle gone bad. She ruined this guy. Really she did. And the sad thing is that he fully helped her do it.

And she ruined you, too.

The wake of destruction of two men in the wake behind her is sobering.

It did just make me remind something I told my wife early on, just a couple of times. I used to call her "Hurricane HerFirstName." A cause of destruction.

The most recent email, I see the other man is still confused. One day she is having sex with him, the next day she is crying and getting upset he puts his arm around her. Now he loses his job. Now maybe part of this is his possible wrongful termination lawsuit, based on his age, he also is in a protected class, and companies can't just fire someone because they've gotten older and make more money than a younger person could do the same job with less money. Because maybe there have been other office affairs where the MUTUAL, NOT COERCED relationship did not result in a firing. And if your wife waffles back, because she was not all that clear to him, not enough, then that will help him in that case.

I think it a mistake to give your wife the benefit of the doubt but not this guy, too. He is a piece of shit, of that I truly believe. One of the hard things to get your head around for the ones who reconcile is, what does that make your wife?

[This message edited by wk55hn at 3:07 AM, December 2nd (Friday)]

It's not often that I disagree with wk55hn, but

She ruined this guy.

is not right. He ruined himself when he engaged in a relationship with a married woman. A person of good character would not do such a thing. Forget AP, this dipshit is not important. It was your wife that made vows to you and keeping them was her responsibility. I agree with the others that his email certainly indicates that there was more to the relationship than your wife has admitted. Do not settle for anything less than the truth.

I asked about the piece about "thought we could get through anything" and she said she didnt know what he was talking about. I think all these are sincere btw.

Oh honey...

They were having very intimate conversations. She crossed so many lines including eluding to a real connection with this man.

wk55hn- No, after she told me of the A, she has told me of any communication they have had (including just mundane day to day in the workplace). She has been good about that.

I think you're right about him and her. Neither one is probably a piece of shit through and through (I know my wife isn't inherently a shitty person) but they both are capable of doing terrible shitty things. This much is very clear. I also agree that he seemed to think/hope that their A was more than just an A; that it was a start of something. When she said she didn't know what he was talking about, she also said that it seemed to her that he felt this was more than what she felt it was; that their final conversation was not good in her opinion but seemed to be in his. There is a disconnect to be sure but I can see him just wanting it to be good even when the writing on the wall is that it's over and done.

I completely agree that, yes, I did the same thing. It was completely opposite (why this 50 yo man who has been in the same position and career for 20 years, yadda yadda) thinking, but the same sentiment.

I see them both as the "bad guy" tbh. They did the same thing. My wife is more on the "bad guy" spectrum because she was the one that was married.

I think as others have pointed out, this email, while strange, just kinda shows (painfully) that there was more of a connection than just the sex. This I already knew, but hearing it from him like this is just hard to read. It's nauseating.

She is well aware that she ruined me, our marriage, my trust in her etc. I am seeing remorse from her whenever we talk about this. She clearly feels terrible about everything that she has done.

self-rescuer- I agree and she freely admits that there was some kind of connection with him. She has told me a few times that it wasn't anything real but that they did get along and talk about things. And yes, she crossed MANY MANY lines.

DM - your desperation to want to believe everything your wayward tells you is palpapable. There are so many holes in her story it is almost difficult to keep up with them. She is NOT being honest with you about everything that happened.

I suspect she is very regretful that she is in this mess but based on what you have told us there is not much remorse here. I also absolutely believe she senses if she 'comes clean' that you may walk and that is why she continues to spin this incomprehensible narrative.

I am normally an advocate for reconciliation but it has to be built on a foundation of honesty about the affair and a REMORSEFUL wayward being all in on fixing the mess they created.

Your wayward is NOT being honest with you - and almost everyone here but you can see that. She might be regretful about how the situation has spun out of control from her preferred narrative. She has dragged her feet and delayed every step of this process and only taken action reluctantly.

It's your life but your wayward has a proven track record of multiple infidelities now and you are on the verge of rugs weeping this latest one. Your choice but I don't think you are reconciling just marking time until her next foray into poor boundries and cheating.

Sananman- you're right. I do want to believe her. Let's say there are details that havent come out, does it really matter at this point? As long as I have the basics of what went on does it really matter if their emotional connection was a bit stronger than she said? I'm honestly asking, not trying to pick a fight or anything.

When you say "disconnect" between the two of them, the same conversation with a very different interpretation, they are both looking at it through their own lenses - the disconnect rings true to me.

I agree with everything Sananman has said.

Yes! Yes it matters if there are details that haven't come out, details she is purposely withholding. Because you are trying to reconcile with a woman who is lying to you. And that just doesn't work.

You are desperate to believe her. You come on here, and sound so strong, saying you believe there was more than what she's told you,and you're going to confront her, and if it's anything important, you're done. Then you come back saying you talked and you really believe her. Lather, rinse, repeat. All she has to do is look at you sweetly,bat her eyes, work up a few tears, and you believe her. She is manipulating the Hell out of you.

Why not polygraph her? At this point, I think its beyond necessary. And if she has told you the entire truth, she will jump at the chance to prove it.

It's clear,from his email, that this was way more than she's told you. Way more.

And...I also think she's found you here on SI.

I'm not sure I agree with everyone's doom and gloom.

I agree, she's minimizing. Why does that surprise anybody? I think it's also good to remember that she confessed. DM didn't figure this out and confront her. I also don't agree with the notion that the AP was any kind of victim. Sure, he might be a lonely guy that feels he was led on. And obviously she did have feelings for him. She had an affair with him. As we all know, most likely she did the I love you; where will we live; you complete me, bullshit. They all do. But he's a big boy. He knew she was married. He knew she was trying to end it. I have no sympathy for him wanting to cling on. She's a cheater. But so is he. He's a homewrecker. At a minimum he was self deluding. At the worst, he was an intentional, manipulative, homewrecker. I've seen guys like that many times. I've had guys like that work for me. I hate them. Sleazy, always giving women hugs, always trying for a little more affection when the group is at a bar, always pushing boundaries, a little pat on the bottom, "it's all just friends," trying to ingratiate themselves, and almost always married women. So he's single and lonely, boo fucking hoo. He shouldn't be hustling married women, even if they are doable.

DM - I don't know if you can get over this. Frankly, I don't think you will know yourself for a couple of years. Yeah, it takes that long to really process what's been done to you. Think about it, two years from now you will be remembering she fell "in love" and had an affair with her boss. You will be imagining all the blowjobs, cowgirl, doggie, missionary, I love yous, etc. How is that going to sit with you? I can tell you from experience, three years out, I'm not happy with the memories and mind movies I've got. They lessen, but they're always there. So... take your time, unless you already know you don't want her. But don't rush to say we're reconciled baby, Gawd I love you! If you're heading that way, for heaven's sake slow down, don't rugsweep. You don't want this to be repeated.

That being said, it appears to me that she wants you. She really needs to find out why she does this/did this. If she wants to stay married, she needs to find the flaw in her character that lets her think what she did was ok, or even forgivable. Seriously. But it does appear to me that she is taking baby steps in the right direction. If you really want her, I think you could make this work. But she's got a ways to go.

whatever you decide, good luck friend.

[This message edited by mike7 at 9:30 AM, December 2nd (Friday)]

I told her we should have the lawyer contact him in response. That will end this completely. He's unemployed and prob doesnt want to risk a lawsuit.

I don't see why get a lawyer involved at this time.

Your wife has been leading this guy on forever. She tells him no contact other than work, and the she cries on his shoulder and lets him hug her.

And I agree with Bigger, your wife is the one that needs to just tell this guy she is married, and enough is enough....no more contact.

Your wife was playing a game with this OM. And when she tells you that she doesn't know what he is talking about, that is a lie. She knows damn good and well what he is talking about.

Yes, there could be some disconnect in what the conversations were about, but there certainly was not disconnect in the sex or her letting him hug her.

Your wife is not telling you the entire truth. I don't remember your wife telling you before she had feelings for him, but I could have forgotten that.

It does bother me that you continually say your wife said this and your wife told you that, I continue to feel you are trusting her word far far too much.

Let's say there are details that havent come out, does it really matter at this point?

Yes it matters, why, because if she continues to lie at this point, she will always know she can lie to you and get away with it all.

This is more about her learning to be totally honest with you than what the details are.

Have you asked her to take a polygraph? Much better to spend the money on that than a lawyer writing this OM at this time.

DM , its up to you as to what details you need. NC is the biggest one that everyone should require. The thing is if you need the details and ask for them , you should get them. TTfurther down the road can be more brutal than the affair sometimes. Decide now what you require. I needed everything and when I didnt get everything when I asked for it (only to find out later there were things left out) it reset everything . Trust , healing , everything.

Let's say there are details that havent come out, does it really matter at this point? As long as I have the basics of what went on does it really matter if their emotional connection was a bit stronger than she said? I'm honestly asking, not trying to pick a fight or anything.

Sorry this just another quick reply. Still recovering from too much holiday drink

Only you can answer this and it is your choice. But SHE is taking that away by controlling through minimizing details, being crypticly advasive, forms of TT, till recently not wanting to dig into herself, etc... All this is a tumor between you, her, healing, and your marriage as a couple. It will fester, grow, and eat away, until it kills. Basically it is her inability to truly (except through words when she knows you need to hear it) let go and become vulnerable.

She knows why he is saying these things because she is an evil bitch (we all have evil asshat spouses so no need to defend) who played/led two men on for her own selfish asshat reasons. And she doesn't want to see herself as this, but will say it over and over again if that is what you want to hear. It's one thing to say it another to actual feel or know it. You can say your rich all day long until you look at the bank loans on all that fancy stuff type thing.

Point being when asked she probably said, "Yes I probably did lead him on but that was his fault for feeling it". Even though this is reality of a single guy having an affair with a married woman. She has to see that she used his feelings to get what she wanted, because she could. "Hurricane (insert your wife's name here)".

But remember you are hugely early on in this and this for a wayward is extremely hard to see and feel. Will she get there in time, yes. I bet she will. But is it before or after the cancerous tumor has killed or mortally wounded the host. Or will she not get there and drop looking and fixing because it is easier than taking medicine for this cancer.

You say you don't want to know and it doesn't matter. But your actions, show different. See that you ask because deep down you know something is off or she is not being vulnerable but only in talks and cry. It's okay. Your digging because that wedge/tumor is there!

Do you want to R? Is she a good candidate, who really knows? Do you love her? All good questions. But right now that "disconnect" between the two affair partners actions is showing in her comments and his email, is it also showing in your relationship with her? Because she is the same person who led both of you on in a sense. See it, she's one and the same person. Not 2 different ones.

I see some "disconnect" even from miles away on a computer, so do others here.

It's okay, breathe, the world is not ending. You both are still early in this shit pile.

We aren't attacking. We just want you to see she needs help, maybe a push over the edge to vulnerability. Polygraph? But what questions? Etc..

You laugh at the poly idea, probably. So did I. But I used it as a tool to push my wayward into a parking lot confession. I didn't care about the test or results really. Because deep down I already knew she would fail it. I just needed her to stop being an idiot and give up tying to hide and become vulnerable finally. And yes I lied to her telling her no matter what I would not leave if she told me beforehand. I knew I couldn't keep this promise because staying is more than just the details its the work both of us would put into R'ing. And till that tumor was removed we both weren't 100% into fixing our marriage.

Okay I have to run now..Sorry it is not my best post but may give you something to think about.

[This message edited by sneaker at 10:13 AM, December 2nd (Friday)]

Thanks guys. I know she is taking the correct steps to figure herself out. Starting IC on Monday, she's been listening to podcasts that I have recommended. I do think she is, at this point, committed to changing herself and figuring out the big questions. How does that work, btw? With her in IC do I have every right to ask what they spoke about, or is that something private?

That makes sense about it being less about details and more about her knowing she has to be totally honest. Idk if I can get over this either, but I do want to give her a chance to try to be the woman I thought she was when I married her. If things fall apart during R, then I'll know she can't change and can make a decision off of it. I just think I owe it to myself to give her the chance.

With her in IC do I have every right to ask what they spoke about, or is that something private

Nothing in a marriage should be private between the couple. You have every right to ask. In fact she should want to share her healing and growth.

Okay, that makes sense. Thanks! Hope your head isn't too bad. I've been chewing on bread all morning myself, haha. The whole liquid therapy is not recommended. :(

Idk if I can get over this either, but I do want to give her a chance to try to be the woman I thought she was when I married her.

You don't get over this, you have to go through it. And where you end up on the otherside depends on the work you put into it. And yes a way to work through it is divorce and distance. You choose your path. So does she.

That woman you married didn't exist. It was your own illusion, and she helped create it of course. And that is okay. But realize you will never have that woman because it was your illusion. What exists is who your wife will become. Of course it can have 90% of that woman you married, she is basically recreating herself. And of course you can help in that everyone wants their partner to be the best version of themselves. But it is her life and she needs to own it.

With her in IC do I have every right to ask what they spoke about, or is that something private?

That is a good question. Who found this IC?

Some therapists seem to give advice that the WW continue to lie for their own reasons. That is not a therapist that should be around any WW.

A good therapist will advise full honesty.

For me, I would want to know what is being discussed and I would want to be able to talk to the IC myself and find out what is going on.

The reason I say this is because, as a BH we have already been through our WWs having secret conversations with the OM. And the last thing we need now are more private conversations that our wife's are having with someone else.

How many times can a BH put up with the WW having private conversations.

[This message edited by craig2001 at 10:40 AM, December 2nd (Friday)]

The IC is our MC. He is pretty good. I like him.

Good points, sneaker. Thanks. I need to see some growth in her. One piece that isn't sitting well with me this morning is that she told me that her and OM had spoken about how she felt like she "missed out" on her 20s (we dated seriously from 20 on). This is sitting poorly with me because it almost seems like she put the "20s experience" (dating others, sleeping with others etc) ahead of me and us. GROW THE FUCK UP!

Oh the pain of infidelity.

She didn't care about "missing out" on her 20's in reality. This was just talk and more of the "flirt" if you will. She wanted him to make her feel young if you will and alive. To fill her own broken holes inside herself.

You could have been a multi billionaire traveled the globe with her all throughout the 20's. She still would have said this to him because it was a means to an end and not a reflection of reality.

Oh but as a betrayed you will wound yourself by saying but if I had done that she wouldn't have meet or cared about him. But remember she is who she is and all it would have taken for him or another asshat to do is say "hi" and find those buttons. Remember, rich, poor, handsome, ugly, smart, stupid, all people get cheated on.

But wow, keep her sharing if that is what you want. Work through it. Encourage her to open up and talk more if that is what you need and want. This is the work. As she goes and talks she will be working on her own issues.

[This message edited by sneaker at 11:02 AM, December 2nd (Friday)]

Lmao, yea it just gets better and better.... She's taking good steps and seems (at least to me) to be in a better place now after she has told HR. She seems more proactive and sure of what she's doing. I really don't want to hear their pillow talk, what positions they tried, etc. I don't see how it helps and just hurts to hear it.