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Griz, the text she sent you from Nov. 13 was a good thing. I would take that and run with it. She said she will help you repair. Get her to get tested for STDs, get her to write down all of the shit she's done, and get her to a polygraph. Ask her to get rid of the toxic you-go girls.

I believe she is genuine. I'm not sure she has the chops to do what she says, though. It is difficult to deep-seated habits, and her habits are deep-seated. But is worth a shot. You can always decide it's not what you want.

When she is not doing what you ask for, go 180 and start detaching. As long as she is giving you what you want and need, then move forward with it.

Did she do other shit besides what you know? Almost definitely. If she is genuine, you will know very quickly.

Griz, I have a criticism for you. One that I have done myself, and I have somewhat changed. You spend too much time at work. No one gets married to live at the level of wealth your wife is. That wasn't it, don't make the cheating to be about you, it is about her. The reason she married you was because she loves you. Part of that might be your industrious nature, your reliability, your strength, your always making it right for her. There are plenty of cheaters who continue cheating openly and choose to divorce. And if your wife did that, you'd be paying for her. So don't make it it's not.

I like this movie called "Office Space." There is a guy who is really unhappy with his job, he has to work long hours, Saturdays, Sundays. The guy is talking with his friend about work and money.

Peter Gibbons: What would you do if you had a million dollars?

Lawrence: I'll tell you what I'd do, man: two chicks at the same time, man.

Peter Gibbons: That's it? If you had a million dollars, you'd do two chicks at the same time?

Lawrence: Damn straight. I always wanted to do that, man. And I think if I were a millionaire I could hook that up, too; 'cause chicks dig dudes with money.

Peter Gibbons: Well, not all chicks.

Lawrence: Well, the type of chicks that'd double up on a dude like me do.

Peter Gibbons: Good point.

Lawrence: Well, what about you now? What would you do?

Peter Gibbons: Besides two chicks at the same time?

Lawrence: Well, yeah.

Peter Gibbons: Nothing.

Lawrence: Nothing, huh?

Peter Gibbons: I would relax... I would sit on my ass all day... I would do nothing.

Lawrence: Well, you don't need a million dollars to do nothing, man. Take a look at my cousin: he's broke, don't do shit.

The point is, I think for you, is that maybe it would be better to back off on the amount of time at work, maybe it is better to cut back your lifestyle, and spend more time with your wife and your son. Even if you divorce, all work and no play is no good for Griz.

I also sometimes joke about my dad, when I was by his side on his deathbed, and he leaned over and whispered in his last breath, "I just wish I could have spent more time at work, and less time wasted so much with my family."

Anyway, I take her message as a good thing.

Understanding there is no machine to go back in time, what do you want your wife to do now? What is the harm in putting her to the test of her words?

wk55hn, I love to read your posts. A lot of times I'll post something, only to see your post and change my mind completely. With this one, I agree 100 percent. It can't hurt to give her 1 chance.

Well I saw her last night. She looked like a dog with its tail between its legs. I actually felt kind of sorry for her. She has lost weight clearly. She is really bummed out. I think she might actually feel remorse. She is working in my business and was there late last night. She is going to be working again today. She says all the right things.

It could all still be a show.

The gogirls are apparently out. For now anyway. I checked her phone and the logs. No contact with the worst ones anyway. She might have another phone. She might be calling with one of her friends phones. She might be communicating with another email address. I certainly can’t be sure.

I obviously still don’t trust her worth a damn. I am going to follow her actions.

I read somewhere that infidelity is as bad or worse than being raped. Is there any truth to that? Does anyone know? I’m not putting that out there to minimize the trauma of rape - I can’t even imagine. And it might be comparing horrible apples to worse oranges, I don’t know.

Thanks for the hugs Skan.

I agree with you Wool. We are all becoming experts whether we like it or not in this awful business. I will tell you one thing, it is making me a more compassionate person. I really know what others who are suffering go through. These life experiences remind you to stop and take stock in your own life and be grateful for what you have. It call all be gone in a second. We all know that intellectually, but this event makes us feel that loss intimately. It’s a very hard way to be reminded to be grateful.

I think you would make a great counselor and I’m very happy to have you in my corner. Thank you.

Thanks for your post wk. I think your view is very correct. I certainly do spend too much time at work and I am very conscious of that. That is going to change. I have already made that decision. My life is more important that a few extra bucks. My kid certainly is. Thank you for that observation. My wife is going to be picking up the slack by getting a job of her own in Jan (assuming we are still together).

And of course, I LOVED Office Space! One of my favorite movies of all time. I loved the quote you put in. Put a huge smile on my face. Thanks!

And I am trying to focus on the practical matters in my life right now. I am making an effort to be neutral with my wife as much as possible. If she does the right things then we have a shot. If not, then I can move on with my life with my son as a priority.

Thats all I can do for now.

Grizz you sound better that is good to read. I will defer to wk55 as he is one of the best posters on here and knows this stuff well.

Just keep your guard up and don't hold back on what you need and want. Good move on the hours. What was main issue for us was I worked a lot and she didn't and had free time to do nothing. Well had time to have an affair but you get the drift.

And cut out all the group that cheered this on and helped. I acted on this way to late and it cost me. Amazing how much others will help or egg on an affair. Worst thing a cheater can have are people telling them is valid to do or they are the ones that are neglected.

I would say just proceed with caution. Don't expect her to be this totally changed person in a day. But sit back and observe. Let her actions show you she has changed and is fully back into this for you.

I hope it works out for you.

Gary you are a great guy. I read many of your posts and know that you have been through hell and back. Thank you for taking interest in my situation and offering your advice. I really appreciate it. My eyes are wide open now and I see how cheap words are.

I am going to keep an open mind. But my patience has a limit. And I am at that limit.

I have made this very clear to her and I think she understands that I am no longer to be messed with in this way.

Grizzly:

You have the right idea in watching what she does versus what she says.

As to patience...you absolutely need to set a deadline. 90 days, 6 months, whatever suits you...decide what you must see by that deadline for her to be able to keep you.

This will prevent perpetual limbo.

You sound good, brother. Keep it up.

I read somewhere that infidelity is as bad or worse than being raped. Is there any truth to that? Does anyone know? I’m not putting that out there to minimize the trauma of rape - I can’t even imagine. And it might be comparing horrible apples to worse oranges, I don’t know.

To answer that IMO, hell no. Rape is far worse than infidelity.

Affairs are by choice, rape is not.

Affairs are not violence, rape is.

The article said rape is as bad as an affair...for who the WW or the BH?

Either way, I would say rape is far, far worse.

[This message edited by craig2001 at 10:54 AM, November 17th (Thursday)]

Thank you Craig I appreciate your comments.

Just to be clear I don't want to minimize anyone's trauma or experience and mean no disrespect to anyone with my question.

I hope there is no ambiguity about that to anyone who read my post.

There's a current thread on the reconciliation forum, comparing infidelity to rape. Interesting responses.

I've been raped. My child(20 at the time) was brutally raped. And, I'm here,so I've been cheated on.

The rape of my child,is by far, the very worst thing I've ever had to deal with. I would rather have a husband who cheated on me,every single day, for the rest of my life, than what happened to my child. Hands down.

But, there are many here who saying the infidelity is worse..for them. There,are also many here,who have lost a child, and say the infidelity is worse. Different perspectives, from many different people.

I am so sorry you have found yourself here! I completely understanding the gut wrenching pain. I have been through it numerous times I am ashamed to say. It is extra hard when there is a child involved because you wonder how this will affect them. I get it I totally do.

First and foremost, don't rush into any decisions. If you have someone else to stay with like family or a close friend, it might not be a bad idea just to clear your head and be away from her. I know that I couldn't stand being around my WH after catching him in an affair.

Secondly, as a previous poster said, don't rush into R. You need to make sure she has in fact cut all contact because, I'm sorry to say, that is rarely the case. You may catch her reaching out to him and continuing to have some contact for a while. Some find it hard to cut ties cold turkey with their AP because of the emotional connection they made. It hurts. It stings. It is the ultimate betrayal. But be realistic in your expectations. I have found that ultimatums don't work in these cases.

Get counseling, individual for now. You need someone you trust to talk to. It sounds like you have nobody right now and it's important for you to get this off your chest.

Lastly, you can move past this and R if that's what you chose to do for your son's sake. But WW will have to agree to complete transparency otherwise you will never trust her again. It will take years. Years I tell you. Be prepared to keep having emotional swings, being really angry one minute and sobbing the next. That will fade over time.

Finally, be gentle on yourself! Rest, take some time off work to focus on you. Get a massage, maybe grab a good book to take your mind off things, exercise (even if you don't feel like it) because these things will make you feel "normal" again. Hugs and I hope everything works out for you and your son!

Well I saw her last night. She looked like a dog with its tail between its legs. I actually felt kind of sorry for her. She has lost weight clearly. She is really bummed out. I think she might actually feel remorse. She is working in my business and was there late last night. She is going to be working again today. She says all the right things.

It is too soon to tell if WW is suitable for R.

WW made deep emotional connections during a 9 month LTA. WW is inevitably in withdrawal from the dopamine highs she experienced during the A. The manner in which WW demonised her BH to the gogirls might well mean that she saw her main man as the AP not you. I cannot remember if you mentioned marital intimacy dropping off during the A; if it did, that again indicates WW preferentially bonding with AP.

I am also concerned about the wedding BJ guy. I think there may be many more incidents with him. TT with more details about other meetings emerging will setback or kill the R process.

For a strong R to develop it is very important to get the whole bucket of shit on the table now, so that you know every thing that you have to work past.

I might suggest that you tell WW that you have spoken to a reconciliation specialist, who has informed you that another DDay later in R will kill the M.

Such a statement might need a promise that no matter how bad the details of a new confession you will stay in the M working at R for say 2-3 months before taking any final decision. WW could well fear that any more confessions will drive you away.

For a strong R no TT and no rugsweeping are vital.

Stay Strong

Rape victims have no choice in the matter.

Your wife chose to rape your marriage. Each one is horrible. I think the victims still feel the same, that something was taken from them without their consent. You were not raped, but you were given the reality of pure betrayal.

Betrayal and rape. Two completely different things. But both of them can hurt you.

So the question is, what is worse. Being betrayed by your soulmate, or being raped by a stranger. Both are horrific.

Quick question. What do you guys think about telling close family members (mine) about this whole business? Most of my family would secretly think it is hilarious that this is the second time a wife has cheated on me. I have found the people often take a deep pleasure in the misery of others and that definitely applies to members of my family. Others might be more sympathetic and possibly supportive. I guess what I am asking is have you regretted telling family members about your spouses’ infidelity?

Confused, I did read that thread on rape and I wanted to puke. I can not believe people have been through some of the things that are described on that thread. Just unbelievable. I can not even imagine. Reading the thread has reformed me permanently of any desire I may have to compare the effects of infidelity on a person to rape or anything else.

Thank you for your advice. BW. That is something that I can do and am doing. I am slowing everything down. I am taking my time. I am gathering my thoughts and moderating my feelings (as best I can).

And widower, you are very correct. I asked her if she missed the OM. She admitted that she thinks about him sometimes when she is dropping off our son (the time when they would meet up). That she misses talking to him. But that she does want to be with him. This admission made me sick to my stomach but I credit her for being honest. Or at least I think she is being honest.

As for wedding BJ guy, she has known him for many many years. They dated in high school and would get together to fuck between their respective boyfriends or girlfriends. It bothers me tremendously that after she learned that I found out about her affair with OM, the first person she called was wedding BJ guy. In other words, when her husband found out about an affair she was having with another man, my wife called another man (BJ guy) to tell him that I found out about the affair.

How fucked up is that?

Her explanation? Nothing satisfactory. Just that he wouldn't judge her and she helped him through his last break up. Pure bullshit.

I think OM was Plan A. Wedding BJ guy Plan B. And I am Plan C in her mind.

She of course denies this with tears and hysterics. Its hard to believe anything she says. Sometimes I think she is being very sincere and honest. Other times I think she has gotten so used to lying that she has convinced herself of her own lies.

Grizz I would rather her family know than yours. Make her have to squirm and be accountable to her family members. And jesus your family would really make fun of you and take pleasure in this? Dude I am sorry. I hesitated myself till people here told me it needed to be done.

My sister was a great ally for me but other than that not much for me. Her parents were upset with her but their focus was keeping me and her together. Probably cause they knew if I was gone they would be taking care of her which they are. So it was not really support for me but not wanting their daughter to be a burden on them.

Whatever route you choose to tell or not make sure its your point and not hers. She doesn't have that authority on you to have a say. What would you like to do?

Man reading your last part just sucks to see. I mean she is caught with one guy and turns to another??? I know you want to make this work but what does that tell you?

Hang in there man.

I haven't told my family. Worried they'd think less of her, less of me, etc. We are trying R so I figured I'd keep it low-key, I dunno. I told a trustworthy friend (wife's best friend really) and no one else. My wife drunkenly told another friend of hers with a loudmouth husband who is just a few degrees of separation from my sister, so for a while she was shitting bricks that my family would find out.

In your case, I dunno. If you decide on D there's no reason not to explain why. I find it shitty that your family would take pleasure in knowing what happened to you.

Worried they'd think less of her, less of me, etc.

What Mouthkeptshut said. A couple of my close friends know. My cousin, really my best friend, knows. They have all been great. My cousin offered to break the law even!

But my immediate family? No f-ing way! Not just because of what Mouthkeptshut said. We've always been sort of the Gary Cooper, silent types with emotional stuff. For perspective, when I was in the middle of applying to law schools, taking the test, etc., it took my SIL at Thanksgiving to figure out what I was doing because the test was coming up the following weekend. She and my brother are both attorneys so when we couldn't stay very long after dinner, she knew. "You closed-mouth (family name here) boys!" After our first D, my WW and I were back together for about a year before I said anything to either my parents or brothers. I took my brothers out to dinner to tell them. When I told them what was going on, one of them got up and checked to see if "monkeys were flying out of his ass" because he and his wife were speculating what the topic of the dinner would be. When she suggested that I was back with WW, that was his response: "When monkeys fly out of my ass!" We laugh about it now!

Until I absolutely have to because of a D, I will say nothing. It would probably kill my 80 year old mother.

So, to my grave or theirs.

Quick question. What do you guys think about telling close family members (mine) about this whole business? Most of my family would secretly think it is hilarious that this is the second time a wife has cheated on me. I have found the people often take a deep pleasure in the misery of others and that definitely applies to members of my family. Others might be more sympathetic and possibly supportive. I guess what I am asking is have you regretted telling family members about your spouses’ infidelity?

Gosh that is so sad. Your family should be 100% behind you at a time like this. You could tell just the sympathetic ones, but eventually all will find out.

Expose to WW's family if they are likely to support the M and give WW a little ration of shit.

I definitely think you should expose to wedding blowjob guy's BW or BGF and possibly his parents.

I strongly think that the toxic gogirls deserve a sympathetic message along the lines of 'please fuck off and die'.

I would consider telling one of your closest friends, someone that you unquestionably trust.

And widower, you are very correct. I asked her if she missed the OM. She admitted that she thinks about him sometimes when she is dropping off our son (the time when they would meet up). That she misses talking to him. But that she does want to be with him. This admission made me sick to my stomach but I credit her for being honest. Or at least I think she is being honest.

Yes indeed. WW told the truth when she could easily have lied. One very good sign for WW and R.

As for wedding BJ guy, she has known him for many many years. They dated in high school and would get together to fuck between their respective boyfriends or girlfriends. It bothers me tremendously that after she learned that I found out about her affair with OM, the first person she called was wedding BJ guy. In other words, when her husband found out about an affair she was having with another man, my wife called another man (BJ guy) to tell him that I found out about the affair.

How fucked up is that?

Her explanation? Nothing satisfactory. Just that he wouldn't judge her and she helped him through his last break up. Pure bullshit.

I think OM was Plan A. Wedding BJ guy Plan B. And I am Plan C in her mind.

You were not necessarily Plan C, with Plan A being OM. The alternative explanation is compartmentalisation. In which WW had essentially 3 different lives going on in her head. It does happen. You may have always been No 1 to WW. It is a different kind of fucked up, but perhaps marginally better.

The only way to be sure you are in strong R is judging WW's actions over time. You do need to keep monitoring. Any break in NC would be a serious setback.

Finally, I am very pleased to see you posting insightful sympathetic posts on other JFO threads.

This really will help you in your own healing.

Stay Strong.

Griz, let's all agree your wife is really really fucked up. Knowing how she is, practically no man would want her. Who needs the fucking headache, no matter how great she is in ant other respects, what good is any of it if she can't stop fucking other dudes, and you know you've reached to the end of the list she's done yet.

But she is your wife, the mother of your child, and she married you and not the boyfriend and not the many other guys she could have gotten to want to. She did love you. I think she does still. But, yes, really fucked up. These are her own demons, from whence they came, I do not know, but she wasn't born with it, it came from something in her life, and it can be fixed in her life.

She is offering up it appears, I suggest you put her to it and see if she can do it. I think she can see how twisted she has become and is starting to want to fix it. Go with it, soon enough you will see if she's genuine or faking.

Forget about telling your family, who would make fun of you and get a good laugh. That helps nothing. Focus on what you want. Before this affair, you had a dream. You can adjust your dream with your wife or without her. I personally think it's better with her if she'll fix her head, but that takes you letting her do it. What, you don't have enough obstacles with her past ghosts and demons and the you-go girls, now you want to add in your family, too? Do you like making it harder on yourself? There is a time to bring them into the mix, but not now that she is turning the corner a bit.

[This message edited by wk55hn at 3:36 PM, November 18th (Friday)]

You are Plan A, but you have been so loyal she has taken you for granted. I think she wants you the most of all these other guys, but like you can see, she is fucked up, she loves the attention, she figures what's the harm if you never know, and the you-go girls tell her she's worth it.

She told them some reallyvshitty stuff about you, and her straightening them out, with you present, even if it's on a conference call, is one of the first things you should ask for. To be clear to them she loves you more than them, they are friends, you are her best friend and husband, and you have been a great husband to her, she was the one who fell short by cheating, she repudiates her cheating and is committing to you despite whatever rants or vents she steamed off with them in the past.

Then she can call blowjob guy with you on the phone and tell him to go fuck off for the rest of his life, too, next time she hears from him she'll be contacting the police to get a restraining order.

That's what I'm talking about when I say put her to the test of her claims.

My response would be to ask yourself "How does the more authentic Grizzly want to decide on who knows, to help him stay authentic?" That answer is different for all of us because of our own unique life situations. If you feel that the relationships with family and friends, as it stands, does more to chip away and challenge your ability to be authentic by keeping her affairs secret then it is worth exploring how those relationships can change with respect to you, your WW, and your marraige going forward should you both decide to reconcile.