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Just like staying with you after your infidelity is destroying his integrity? You murdered and maimed him yet YOU are trying to establish moral guidelines and boundaries that he has to follow on top of having to find a way to keep his dignity after the destruction YOU caused

How is trying to reconcile with me destroying his integrity? If it is, then I would prefer him to NOT be trying to reconcile. I did enough harm to him, I don't want to be causing ongoing harm. Maybe you and I don't have the same understanding of integrity. By my measure it is a three part thing.

1) Discerning what is right.

2) Choosing the right.

3) Claiming the choice rather than hiding it.

I can't imagine any universe where premeditated murder for the purpose of revenge is the right thing to do. I understand the desire, the impulse, the thoughts, the fantasy. But not the following through. My past harmful choices do not balance out or excuse any harmful choice he were to make now.

Thank you!

... I know BS does not want to feel this way, he just cannot see a path to not feeling this way.

Very gently, with all the best intent:

I asked about "negation". What about affirmation? What positive result for him would let him feel better or start there? Something to work with or ask in IC? Is or are there positives he can pull together or win (with your help?) to rebalance?

Equally, the negative question. If he got one truly free shot, and obliterated AP, would the anger really go away? Really?

Is he willing to trade you for that? Really? Not in the I can say yes because it'll never happen way, but truly? Cuz truly, nothing stops him if he wanted to. Yet! Yet, something does.

I'd guess all these questions have been asked, but ...

I'm trying (poorly I suspect) to say there is a dichotomy between what he says he needs and wants, and what he is already actually choosing..

It seems clear he cannot even imagine, without obliteration, what success would look like, given the past. And that's where he needs help. What's the first step?

For me, I've been fortunate to have not "lost" "this big" but I have lost plenty. Myself I always look for where I can win again (fairly) to rebuild esteem and self image/identity.

I reckon he truly loves you more than these other things, but can't say it. Why? Cuz there he still is, three moves and another state later, still, per your post, wicked smart and a great H. He has had choices, and still does, really, yet he hasn't chosen them.

Is that not affirmation of what a hero and truly honourable man he really is?

FWIW, I'd tell him, yes,, your past is bad, but your now and your future are awesome. Truly.

Equally, I'd tell him, honour is not revenge, it's accepting the consequences and moving forward, in which he's a hero, and the better man, who is, in honour, just that, the better man. Truly.

But those last are just me..

Best wishes -- IDK

I am sympathetic to how your husband feels. I replay their discovery except it is not my PI who does it, but rather me with a baseball bat. The movie ends with me smashing his hands, which would not be good if you are an electrician. What I did was obviously the right thing as I am not in jail, and haven't been sued for everything I have.

I let the AP off the hook on the agreement he went NC, but I am going to revisit this.

There is a lot of daylight in revenge between death and maiming and just doing something's. can your husband wreck a relationship he has? Screw him up at work, key his car? Gently here, the AP isn't the one he should have the major problem with, it should be you. It's a miracle that he doesn't, at least to a large degree. You are very fortunate.

As to integrity. I agree with you ES. He can maintain his integrity and stay with you. What isn't so hard to maintain is a sense of pride and frankly ego. Like your husband, I consider myself a smart and observant person. For me to be duped like this shattered me. And mine was just a short period of time.

The biggest battle has been that for me and the internal conflict within myself that I feel weak for staying. This is something I am working on in IC. He probably feels the same.

The other issue might be your expectations. You obviously have done a lot of reading and work on changing yourself. I just caution that doesn't automatically translate to making the marriage whole. I think it was totally necessary to do this work, and you stood no chance if you didn't, but because you have moved forward doesn't mean he has, and he might even feel worse if he now feels left behind

Sometimes we just have to adjust our expectations to match the actions we have previously done. I am sure ihe is in great pain, but doing the best he can

Sometimes I think it would be better for him if he just left me and pursued his revenge on AP. It would destroy any chance we have of being together but at least he would not spend the rest of his life living with "if only..."

I can't give 2x4s in this forum, but look at what you wrote and think about what message you are conveying to your husband.

Out of protection for my own self identity and I guess what I want to believe is true about BS. It would destroy us because staying with BS after something like that would destroy my integrity.

Maybe he would let go of his hate for the AP if you stopped protecting him (the AP)? Does he feel that you do not want him to go after your AP because you still have feelings for the AP? It may not even be a conscience level thing, but that's the very first thing I thought when I read your statements.

Well, two things really.

1. You have feelings for the AP still

2. You are trying to control the narrative

Could these be reasons you are still stuck in year 7?

[This message edited by TheBest at 7:51 AM, April 17th (Monday)]

This seems to be an extreme case of the BS transferring anger away from the WS to the AP. This is why I think it's so dangerous to give the AP any power in your life.

You say your BS has a strong background in psychology and has had a great deal of IC, which does not appear to be helping. What kind of IC have you had? Has any of your counseling focused on how you can work with him to bring him out of this funk?

I understand your moral stance against murder, but having said that, you appear to lack a certain empathy for your BS. Have you looked at this side of your personality critically?

My fWW and I had a conversation about a similar topic this weekend. I am.just about 4 months out from D-day of an EA. Many times in the past 4 months, my W has said the words "I love you." Now, she never said that to the OM, but there is something that I find very hollow about those words.

This weekend, we talked about that hollow feeling from her words. Not because she said that to me during her EA, but because she said (more than once) "I never really loved you."

Now, on a logical level, I know that the statement made is completely false and was a method of atempting to distance herself from the pain that she caused, trying to justify her actions. But, she still said it.

So, we talked about that. She apologized again for saying it, explained (not excused, but explained) her mind when it was said and how she wished she hadn't let herself get there (she had help from a counselor who helped her "grieve" our marriage as if it were dead; 2 months later, she started the EA...what kind of quack counselor does that!?!)

While I appreciated the latest apology and that she has owned that her words were to make herself feel better, I still find it hard to accept those words being spoken. I see the love & care in her eyes. She does the small things again. But it's just that one little piece that still makes it hard for me to accept.

lahdeedoo, you post is over the line.

New member here. Struck by your thread, the sadness is evident. Your assessment that H main issue now is with AP seems spot on. Hard to see how he can fully heal and R to occur until that's addressed.

The DNA of males is hard-coded to protect the cave, tribe, and especially mates and offsprings against defilers, interlopers, violators, marauders, in essence the various genotype APs of the world. Look at the male Lion...his basic function...is to protect the pride against hyenas and other males. He has no other function.

Your H as you so eloquently stated knew AP was an enemy but he did not do what his gut told him to do, to protect his castle and his mate because you "stayed his hand." That killed his Lion thereby giving AP (gently) grinning, smirking access to you and your body in front of your H and in his home. The emasculation was complete, it struck BS at his primal core because he did not do, at your insistence, what his DNA demanded. Men have a hard time recovering from that, especially when both the wife and AP witnessed and enjoyed it.

Now it seems that you want to stay his hand again by forbidding the possibility of revenge. If it was me I'd go for revenge. Of course where I've been the culture and people are coarser more brutish, where honor seems simpler. I can't speak from where you're from but I don't think BS can recover and R can occur until his lost primal core is recovered.

You seem to think a Capital crime is required or inevitable. No, noses are bloodied or teeth are lost all across this land when someone's woman is "messed with." Sometimes road house justice ends in (maybe) months in the county jail and some fines. Sometimes it's a mutual affray with no findings of legal fault. Sometimes it's a big mystery.

Men are not that complex, they seek justice and they want their woman's support in going after that justice. They then can determine how to administer it, the road house way or a more civilized way e.g. PI or internet inquiries then tax liens, legal, municipal or employment complaints or sometimes it's just a determination to investigate and wait for the appropriate opportunity to present itself. If you graced BS with any of these options, even if he did not immediately pursue them, his Lion would begin to awake.

Whatever you do, discuss, love him and support his decision. Also as always nowadays (sigh) BS should first talk to an attorney. Good luck.

Gd272727

Men are not that complex

Posting as a member, you should not generalize. I know a lot of very complex male humans. And speaking of humans,

noses are bloodied or teeth are lost all across this land when someone's woman is "messed with." Sometimes road house justice ends in (maybe) months in the county jail and some fines. Sometimes it's a mutual affray with no findings of legal fault. Sometimes it's a big mystery.

promoting violence is not ok in our society.

ES,

Been following and this post has had me thinking, and I think I know why. Perhaps it will be of use to you and your H. Apologies, it’s long but hopefully sensible.

He may never be able to reframe.

Here goes, a piece of me that my wife only perhaps knows part of. There has been trauma, and it’s outcome name(s) is(are): insecurity, worthlessness, fear, failure, and, perhaps most importantly, loss of control. Not the controlling control nor the let go of the outcome lack of it. But, the loss of feeling that one cannot control one’s own personal outcomes. The response of your H, the anger, are perhaps the outcomes of this lost control, the thing he can’t control(?)

This! This, I know all too well. For 31.5 years, at minimum, of well.

My interests say I like running and sports. In fact, they lie. The truth? What they don’t say is for 31.5 years I have battled with an eating disorder. Details aside, it was all about the mixture of trying to control something, rather than admit I couldn’t control everything and couldn’t be perfect, that more hard work, more anything, would not make a difference.

I was running marathons. And getting lighter and lighter and ... I found out later, my work colleagues were planning an intervention, and trying many other things I didn’t see to help me. In the interim, I got lucky and a fellow runner, much older than I and with similar past, took me aside and talked to me. Over several months, we would stretch together after (separate) runs from a gym, and talk. She brought me to several realisations around this that saved me from myself, in an era of “guys don’t get that illness” she got that I had it when no professional would help me. Perhaps I can pass something on for you and your H, I owe this forward.

So, how is my issue like your H. I think, simply, his recurring anger and inability to let go are darn near the same as my own self-abuse. Didn’t matter that other cared hugely for me, I couldn’t or wouldn’t see it. Didn’t matter that it was hurting me physically and mentally, in ways that actively obstructed what I wanted to accomplish to make me feel better and more in control. Didn’t matter that it dominated my life and big parts of any enjoyment (which is more important enjoying food, intimacy, sex? All three equal I reckon, can’t do without any of them for long). Didn’t matter.

I would note that my eating disorder is forever ongoing too, one never gets rid of this, one doesn’t reframe one’s need for control or outcomes, but, one can manage it. It’s forever there. I can be at ease, even stressed, for over a year, and not think about it at all, but then one day, no real reason it seems, and …

I would add, if this seems offline. That my disorder stems from the same “horsemen” your husband has. Fear, insecurity, self-hatred for what not complying with his urges makes him feel he will become, combined with/against self-hatred for thinking of the revenge he wants. Cant win either way in this mind game. For me, eating too much makes me think I will become someone I cannot stand, and not eating (the “solution”) makes me someone I also can’t stand, despite the initial rush of good feelings.

It dominates my life at times and just writing this is not the best, but it’s been on my mind around thinking on your H and what you describe. So, either way, it’s there.

So, I don’t think he needs to reframe, maybe he sees it as “accepting” and in my case I too can’t accept entirely who I am. But, huge but (one “t” I know how you others think!), I manage it. I don’t let it rule me. And frankly, with 31.5 years of experience, I am very good at it. My wife knows I have this issue, but not how much it occupies of my mind space (maybe she should, maybe not), but it’s because I don’t let it rule me, nor, especially important, dominate who I am. I. Do. Not. (And he should not either, IMO)

I don’t think, like a chronic injury or disease, that it will “go away” or “be released”. What he needs is coping mechanisms and methods, so he can be his best self and manage his “chronic disease” this damage he has, first to be happy more and then, over a very long time, to the point it doesn’t need to be thought of.

I hope to get there, and haven’t succumbed in any real sense, where I couldn’t cope and move on, and certainly not in a way that shows, since October 10, 2013 (see how I know the date).

I did this very much alone, trial and error, and still do, outside my one friend of very long ago, and have had to since it’s still only for “young women who read too much Cosmo” or some such (I tried for some help a few years back, and that’s a near quote).

Thus, with help in IC, from a very different tack than infidelity perhaps, he can too. Don’t think of it as reframing or infidelity or reconciliation, think of it as a managing a form of psychologically motivated self-abuse that he cannot control himself, or hasn’t found all the keys to control. He may have many already as you note that it can be on the backburner for awhile.

Do I know the key? I wish I did. For me, what resonated so long ago, and still does today, is “Do you want to be *that* person (there were several examples around)?” … It was the start for me. I sense in your words, he already has that answer, he needs the means to get there, or further along which may be a different answer than typical IC which, like infidelity, is often poor about this sort of thing (i.e. you may need a different sort of person than infidelity oriented or anger oriented?).

I would be happy to elaborate here or however suits, and wish you all the best.

Oh, and if it's simply word choice ("I love you"), you know, while they are the "gold standard" they aren't the only choice! New you, new words...

I hope this made sense, at least a little.

Best wishes -- IDK

ETA: Five things or so, sorry:

1. This self-abuse I have, and perhaps your H, many don't understand, because it hurts us and helps nothing, but, understand this (if you don't already), it is something we can control, a release from the hell of not able to fix/control. The fire is just a different hot than the pan.

2. I have ignored bits that are about my context as I don't think they are relevant, but, FWIW, I don't run or do sport just to lose weight. That might be relevant as it is part of what got me where I am.

3. Relevant to #2, there is a lot of self-image tied into this in my case, and I suspect his.

4. I didn't touch on the what, of what I do and manage this. Happy to do so, it was getting long. Suffice to say there are bits of all this that, in fact, make me highly functional in my way.

5. DWTL, in re-reading, had a very good first response on page 1 (IMO and FWIW).

[This message edited by idontknow123 at 10:05 PM, April 17th (Monday)]

Are men complex? Women? We all have the same irreducible values within our core that help us face the difficulties around us. Violence, of course never promote it but but I don't discount it to defend loved ones from attack.

However the issue within the thread that jumps out was how poorly AP acted. Yes I know WW engaged in the infidelity...she was in the fog...but now she is together with her H. Their journey together seems incredible. Infidelity occurs it seems everywhere but couples do work through it. But APs actions as described seem so unfair, so cruel that BH continuing anger is completely justified. Revenge was discussed but not endorsed as a solution. For me it would be.

I can only stand back and look in awe at how much H and W overcame.

Just reading about the interaction between your BH and the AP made my blood boil and even though I was a BS(also a WS), that type of extreme deception never happened for me. But reading it was enough and I realized that 25 years ago, I would have gone through the same emotions your BH is going through and would have felt that the only way out would have been for me to hurt the AP. Now I have evolved a lot and spirituality has helped me grow a lot emotionally, so I would not stay in that rut now. But maybe there is another route you can both travel together. To properly prepare for a confrontation, one must make sure he does not end up on the losing end again. 25 or 30 years ago, had I been where your BH is, I would have gone back to the gym and probably started some sort of martial art to make sure that I would end up winning that confrontation. The great part of the whole thing is that I would have regained my self-respect just by training. Feeling strong physically and feeling like you can fight and stand-up for yourself is very often enough to bring back inner peace and to feel like a man again. Just an idea....

Ok I completely understand how your husband feels.

I am a BW.

I will tell you what helped me get over it.

I had daydreams of beating the crap out of them because I felt they got one over on me.

I dealt with that for two years.

Now I'm a married mother of three grown children. My husband and I own three businesses. I am a respectable member of our community.

BUT I am also the daughter of a woman who grew up on the south side of Chicago. I'm a scrapper and always have been. I'm afraid of no one lol.

But this took something from me that I couldn't get back unless I confronted them. There were three of them btw. On d day I confronted the one I knew about. I took great satisfaction in telling her that "there were three of you, you know that right?" Because this one thought she was in lurrrve with him and the shock I heard in her voice when she found out that she had been played for two years, to this day makes me still laugh.

Because I got some satisfaction of being the one to show her it wasn't so much fun when the shoes on the other foot

It may sound stupid but I sent a message on Facebook, after two years, to one of them, telling them that I knew what they did and to stay out of my life or I would make damn sure they wished they had. It took me that long to find them but I did.

I know it sounds immature and Jr High but being able to make that threat allowed me to take my power back..

Perhaps a letter to the AP telling him exactly what he will do to him if he ever steps into your husbands life would help him to get over this?

I'm only suggesting this because it worked for me.

I felt laughed at and humiliated.

But when I reframed it to make it about ME and not my husband, well for some reason that helped a lot.

I hope this helps.

[This message edited by SCARLETT94 at 6:57 AM, April 21st (Friday)]

Hi Evolving

I'm not sure that I fully understand what occurred during your A. I tried to find the thread where you described it 7 years ago but couldn't. So it's hard to comment intelligently when I don't understand the details.

That said, I wanted to address the original question about saying "I love you". You know your BH best, but if I were him struggling when you said those words, I would want my WW to say to me "I truly do love you, but I recognize that just saying the words causes you grief. So I'm not going to say those words to you anymore, even though I want you to know I do feel that way every second of the day. But since I feel far more than just love for you, I'm going to find better and different words to express that to you"

Then find different ways to tell him you care. Things like "you inspire me every day" or "you're my hero" should be the new mantra. Perhaps you can find more creative words than me.

Good thoughts from me to you and your H.

ES I've seen you post variations on this topic over many years and I can't help but think the same thing each time. Let me get them out as there seems to be a few different aspects. This is kind of a stream of consciousness and some are random thoughts so please bear with me.

Maybe the feelings your H has are attributed to AP because he is afraid to admit to himself that your A really was a deal breaker for him. You disrespected him as much, and probably more, than AP did. Where is the remediation or remedy for that ? Think concrete not ethereal.

He feels like a doormat because of the way your A carried on, but he is too co-dependent and conflict avoidant to let that be known. He is insecure in your M. He feels too much conflict will end it. I think he needs to focus the anger he has towards AP on you. He can't do that because he loves you and on some level thinks you might not be able to handle that. Have you made it safe for him to do that ?

He has not just given up on you and the M. I really think he has given up on himself. He accepted him "losing" in the very societal driven male centric "oneupsmanship," game.

I really think him confronting AP would remove a major blockage that might help him to "move on," from that point. Blow up his life without physically harming him. Or even realize that Karma caught up with AP somehow. AP as you describe him likely got some kind of negative consequences in his life for being a special kind of a d!ckhead.

Respect. Most men need to know and believe they are fully respected by their wives. He believes you did not respect him during that time. How do you show him respect now ? How you treat him now and how you treated him then ? What is different? I think is it naive to think your approach to him is 100% different now versus then. We all do things out of habit that we don't realizing we are doing at certain times. I know I do them too.

What has he done to build himself up and what is he proud of today ? What does he have outside of the M that he can take pride in ?

Any BH still on SI that seems better today realized that their healing has to be independent of the M. Sometimes in spite of our WW and M. A new M does not heal the individual wounds we received through our wives cheating on us. How can it ?

Yes he is proud of YOUR growth, but that is not his to own is it ? You would have done that regardless, right ? You might feel pride in that, but to him it is just another example of how your A allowed you to grow and become a better you. I resent that about my W too. (just being honest)

BTW Not saying you did not have a price to pay through R. I am just saying that he might view it in that context sometimes.

Your H seems to be hung on the concept for justice or Karma.

We all can say there is no such thing or Karma doesn't exist. Nothing is fair in an Affair. That is our journey. Not his.

He is longing to see that being a good person has it's rewards or that nice guys don't finish last. I still think that nice guy is more true than anyone will admit to BTW.

At a minimum he wants to see OM pay some kind of price for being a horrible human being. He doesn't want to believe that horrible human beings get rewarded for horrible people.

Again, JHMO. I hope that these things migt give you things to talk to Shards about.

This seems to be an extreme case of the BS transferring anger away from the WS to the AP. This is why I think it's so dangerous to give the AP any power in your life.

This seems to be rather common from what I've seen on SI when in reconciliation. BS isn't able to resolve his hate towards his spouse who he is suppose to love, so he stuffs all his anger onto this other man. All the deception, lies, broken trust and unfaithfulness is transferred from you to this other man. Its not like you were coerced into AP's bed, but I certainly think that narrative gives him reassurances that his WW couldn't willingly hurt him like this.

This is one of the things that I think kills reconciliation or atleast the healing part. It doesn't sound like he is able to forgive this betrayal or atleast move towards a resolution.

I'm guilty of transferring anger.

I also want to engage in PDAs with my wife right in front of the OM. I want to taunt him into acting then establish dominance. I've decided my desire for murder was out of line. I may consider it My right to take OM's life but it's not my right to deprive his children of their father.

On to your situation...

He isn't weak for wanting revenge or wishing he could have asserted dominance. He does sound like it has been hard for him to forgive you for allowing the AP to do that and himself for not standing up for himself. Honestly he felt emasculated by everything. My only recommendation for you is to switch your focus to empowering him.

Encourage him to lift weights and gush (like a teenager) over him some in front of other men... When He feels stronger than the guys around him, he'll feel like a beast and pretty manly. It helps with feelings like that. It's immature and might be like measuring manhood... But it works.

Also affirming a man (in public) in front of other men is quite possibly the sexiest and most empowering thing a woman can do for a man.

I am going to offer this, take it or leave it, but this is what struck me.

Murder or premeditated maiming would be a deal breaker for me. Couldn't live with it. Wouldn't. Not out of protection for AP, either. Out of protection for my own self identity and I guess what I want to believe is true about BS. It would destroy us because staying with BS after something like that would destroy my integrity. I destroyed my integrity during the affair. I've worked so damned hard to build it back and build it up. I could not be okay with knowing BS was a murderer or practitioner of premeditated violence.

I will be as gentle as possible here...I get it. I would not advocate violence. But is it possible that the message you are sending your BH is that if he did committed violence, you would leave him. But he stayed with you when you did committed adultery? I am dancing around sin. In the 10 commandments, murder is only mentioned once, adultery is cited twice. Which is worse? (I know, that is moral relativism, but hear me out) What message is sent to a BH when his WW who so blatantly committed adultery under his nose in his house says if you commit violence, it is a deal breaker?

He has a right to want revenge. (that is different than actually doing it) Instead of telling him if he did it, it was a deal breaker, you should tell him you understand and validate his feelings of wanting to take back what was stolen from him. Then you should tell him that your concern is not for the POS AP, it is for him, the BH. That you want him not to sink as low as him. That you need him to be the hero he is to keep you both moving forward.

I am not sure I am making it clear, I hope so. Make sure he knows that the reason you do not want him to take revenge is that it will mean you have completely broken him, that you turned him into something lesser than he was. Make it about you and the BH, not the POS AP. You have to make it clear that you have ZERO feelings for the AP. That if he dropped dead or fell off a cliff, you would never shed even one tear. That may help him fully feel that he has won you back, and in some way, he won back the dignity that you stole from him.

For a long time I clung to the timeline of healing...2-5 years...2-5 years...then 5 came, then 6, now it's almost 7. And he still hurts. We still can't call ourselves reconciled. He cannot ever see himself reconciling with himself and the choices he made to not act on his impulse to make AP pay.

Does there come a point when you just have to accept that things are as good as they are going to get? I feel so selfish even bitching about this, like I took a wonderful and exquisite thing and stomped all over it, broke it irretreivably and now am complaining because it doesn't work like it did. But I'm just so sad. I didn't understand the true nature of infidelity. I didn't understand the true nature of love or marriage. I didn't know what I had. I didn't know how badly he could break. And I don't know that he'll ever be okay again.

My wife and I will be going on 16 years beyond Dday this coming summer.

I've long objected to promises of 2-5 years. Maybe that works for some, or most, but it didn't work for me. It isn't the time - it's what you do with it that makes the difference. Healing takes as long as it takes.

Your husband will heal, with or without you in the picture. Healing is what we do.. but a scarred is healed by definition. You, your husband, and your marriage will never be the same. It will never be what it could have been. BUT, it can still be good and fulfilling.

Acceptance for me took a very long time. I had to learn that there was nothing I could do in the present to change the past. Even if I left my WW, my past would still be there. When I finally accepted that it happened, I started to heal.

TT from my WW delayed our healing admittedly, but we're in a good place now. With time, patience, and empathy you can get there too. But don't rush it.

He did not really stay because he forgave me. It was more that he could not bear for the years he put into our relationship to have meant nothing. That there could maybe in the future be an outcome where it was all worth it.

This is often the case and I'm impressed you can see this for what it is. He's hoping for a miracle to magically heal his hurt and we all know that is not going to happen.

One thing that I've noticed over many years is that when BH is out-of-his-mind furious with AP that many times it is really anger toward WW that is being misplaced toward AP. After all, you made the choices that got it started and kept it going and all of those humiliating encounters are your fault. I'm not trying to pick on you, just keeping it real. If your BH is holding a mountain of anger toward you for whatever reason, it can eat a hole in his heart. I don't know if you are in MC or IC but this is something I think you should investigate. If he has a lot of unresolved anger toward you it could be a big part of your problems trying to R.