SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I have a Samsung S7 and the only app in the list that came pre-installed was Google hangouts. I could believe that Skype and Facebook could maybe come installed too because of how common and popular they are. I know for a fact the rest are not pre-installed and I highly doubt your WW has a legitimate reason for having something like kik and the rest of the texting apps. If she's saying something about client privacy or sending documents, I can guarantee that there are better apps for that. Plus, if it was all for business, why would she get so upset that you had it? It makes no sense. The polygraph will be the only way to get the truth.

If she is saying that the apps were downloaded by others then what Apple ID is logged into the phone?

How's it going Pineapple? Were you able to look at the other phone?

I have fallen deep into the proverbial pussy coma for the past week. Still riding the roller coaster, emotions are all over the place throughout each day, but mostly battling bouts of anger more than sadness/depression now. I do have a list of poly examiners that I have compiled but haven't begun the process of contacting them and credential checks. I need to get going on that. W remains open and willing to proceed with a poly exam whenever I have it set up with an examiner. I haven't spoken with her about it in a while, but she's mentioned a couple times on her own that she is still willing and wanting to do it to give me peace of mind.

All the various messaging apps on phone #2 checked out as needing to be on this phone for the purposes that the phone was used per 3rd party documentation which I was able to independently verify. All apps were installed using a shared user account. So I am not so worried about that phone. The only deleted app on her primary phone that might be noteworthy is Kik, but she had used that with our kids a few years back when they didn't have phones and only had iPods. I do recall that. She says she only ever texted with OM and never used any other app with him for communication. Given that there were recent text messages when this all started, I tend to believe her about that.

As more time has gone on and as she and I have spoken at length many times daily about everything, I am feeling more convinced that the relationship with the OM had been platonic to the point that I discovered it. Granted, there were countless opportunities along the way for a PA to have occurred that I will never be able to uncover if it did happen. I will have to rely on the poly results as my only indicator on that. I do feel that the relationship was probably not far from crossing over the PA line had they ended up meeting out-of-town, which probably was an eventuality in the not-so-distant future. She doesn't think it would have become a PA. While she sees that the relationship was inappropriate, I feel that she remains blind to just how far down the path of being a full-fledged physical affair that it had gone. She was way too emotionally close to OM, and since he knew she was lying to me about being with him and he continued to see her, he was obviously happy to be working a wedge between her and me while presenting himself as a trustworthy guy. I have no doubts about his intentions.

So, assuming the poly results are good and I don't end up with a parking lot confession, I guess then we begin the long road of rebuilding trust and addressing the issues that led to the lying, deception, disrespect of boundaries, and the many other issues that we must address to get our relationship onto more solid ground.

If I need a reality check here, please don't hold back.

[This message edited by Pineapple at 12:26 AM, August 9th (Wednesday)]

^^^^ Ok then.

I do have a list of poly examiners that I have compiled but haven't begun the process of contacting them and credential checks. I need to get going on that.

Yes. You do need to get going on that.

[This message edited by antlered at 8:23 AM, August 9th (Wednesday)]

"Last night was great as always. Enjoy [city where W was taking kids for the day] it should be a beautiful day."

I need a reality check

I really do hope that she is the one in a million snowflake that didn't cross the line.

Yeah, the pussy coma is a real thing. She's obviously deployed it successfully and has gotten you smoothed out. Lawd. I really hoped you could break out of the 3 F's... Feed, Fuck, and Flatter. Have you thought about going on a sex diet for a while to clear your head?

But ok, you believe her. Just make sure you make haste in getting that poly. Keep up the pressure and give her no quarter. Order your steps and govern yourself accordingly (ideally, no sex). Get some REAL ANSWERS but always remember that right now, it's not your pussy; it's just your turn.

You need no checks in reality. Proceed with the poly. It's the next step.

I actually think it's a good thing the poly is delayed a little. Gives you time to really think about what questions you want to ask. As a little time goes by your WW could have some real guilt setting in if she is indeed hiding stuff. All for the better good I would think.

I hope she's telling the truth and I agree that the only way to know is via poly. Sorry about your situation.

Any new trinkets, gifts, or lingerie recently?

Some lingerie made an appearance for me earlier this past week. I am 100% sure I'd never seen it before since W puts on lingerie for me at most about twice a year, but W insisted she'd worn it for me previously. Said it came from the back of her drawer. I guess I should find that drawer and see what else is in there. Forgot about it after it happened since, well, the sex was good.

[This message edited by Pineapple at 11:26 PM, August 9th (Wednesday)]

Well said, CopiousTears.

always remember that right now, it's not your pussy; it's just your turn

That quote is added to my own book of infidelity knowledge now.

Pineapple, my wife shopped at Victoria Secrets while in her A. Bought many bras and panties (a few that were even crotchless).

Not one single fucking garment of that collection was worn by her for me. Oh, I found them WAY at the back of her drawer, too. Not saying that means she cheated. Just raising my hand and saying BTDT.

Oh, and even after 3yrs beyond D she still claims the OM was "just a friend".

I am 100% sure I'd never seen it before since W puts on lingerie for me at most about twice a year, but W insisted she'd worn it for me previously.

Yep, sounds like my WW. Finding strange lingerie is a big red flag, I know all of it since I probably bought it. She never wears it and we ended up donating it with other clothes to the "League For The Blind".

Oh, the irony!

Pineapple

It sounds like you are stuck in a rut and neither of you can get out of that rut. It’s been some time since your d-day and you are still not sure of the extent of the affair and are not much closer to the truth. Sad fact is that until and unless you are assured you have an acceptable truth then this affair will eventually kill your marriage.

Don’t get me wrong. In many ways, you have made tremendous progress and you ARE moving in the right direction. But now it really sounds like you two are stuck…

I think we on SI tend to get one thing wrong: We shout at new posters to reconcile or to divorce as if those two options are the destination. Wrong. These two options are paths to the destination, but the destination is out of infidelity. Fortunately – while we are undecided – these two paths share the same initial track so we don’t really have to decide to R or to D during the first steps. All we must do is keep moving until we reach that fork in the track where we chose R or D. Even then – for the longest of time – we can always cross over to the other path. A decision to R isn’t carved in stone, nor is a decision to D. However – the more momentum we get and the better we stick to our course the sooner we reach the destination.

Then there is the definition of infidelity. Your wife had an EA. The question is was it also physical? Assuming there is NC then one would think the affair is over. I think that we can define affairs like we do alcoholism; you can have an alcoholic be dry for years, but still pining for that next drink. It’s not until the alcoholic had really committed to sobriety and done the work that he becomes “recovered”. I think infidelity is comparable. Right now your wife is in inactive-infidelity and your marriage fighting inactive-infidelity.

I think one of the biggest mistakes BS make is assuming that since THIS affair is over there won’t be a repeat. Statistics indicate that a person that has cheated once is over 5 times more likely to cheat again when compared to someone that hasn’t cheated. I think the reason for this is simply because the core – the reasons for WHY the WS decided to cheat – hasn’t been dealt with. Inactive infidelity.

Now – You NEED the truth.

IMHO marriages can survive nearly anything. If we could quantify pain (and we can’t) then the pain of what you have already discovered scores high. Lets just give it a 10/10. If your WW came to you on her own accord and told you she wanted the truth out and then proceeded to tell you about numerous sexual acts with OM… that would score 7/10. Maybe even 6/10. Why not higher? Well… partially because you wouldn’t be surprised and partially because she is offering the information on her own accord.

BUT if she convinces you nothing physical happened and then half a year from now you find evidence of a single BJ or he gave her oral or they fondled… That would once again score 10/10. A sexual act that could be seen as “less” scores higher than acts that could be seen as “more”. The reason for the increased pain is simply the secrecy and the apparent lack of trust it implies.

Repeated scores of 10/10 can (and will) wear out whatever energy you have for reconciliation.

Earlier on you said you gave your wife a one-off chance to tell the truth.

What does that mean?

What would your reaction be if she told you now about sex with OM?

Is that an instant reason for divorce?

Could the fear of the consequences be the reason she sticks to her story?

But then – there is ALWAYS the possibility that there was no sex…

I think your one-time offer was a semi-ultimatum and she is afraid that since it’s not on the table then any confession NOW would possibly end the marriage. It’s better to see how long she can hide the truth and even if she fails a poly (that she’s dragging for as long as possible) she’s thinking that AT LEAST there is a slight chance she might pass or a slight chance that at that point she can save the marriage.

I also think YOU are dragging your feet regarding the poly because you are afraid of swinging your ultimatum…

I’m going to offer you some ideas for how to get out of the rut.

Sit down with your wife and ask her to listen to you without disturbances.

Describe the pain discovering her affair caused you.

Describe how all trust is shattered and your fears about an ongoing affair.

Describe that how – for now – her assurances really don’t sooth you.

Tell her how you HATE having no trust and how – if you two can reconcile – trust needs to be rebuilt. How any future together must be built on trust and communications.

Point out that you are still here. That must be the strongest indicator that most of all you would want to reconcile.

But… Also, tell her nobody is forcing you or her to be there. If she wants OM she’s free to leave you and you two will find an amicable way to solve the divorce. Same applies to YOU. Once you reach a stage where the lack of trust erodes your will to reconcile…

Tell her that the past weeks have been tough and you really don’t see progress in the marriage. Ask her if SHE is happy with the progress. With the lack of trust.

Then tell her that she needs to convince you that she’s told the truth. As is you find it non-believable. Ask her how SHE can help you become convinced. What assurances can she give you that you know the truth. Define what you consider physical: You find it hard to believe she or OM did not touch, have oral, send nudies, intercourse, phone-sex... Whatever.

Tell her that she now has a period of 4 hours to decide what she wants to do. At the end of 4 hours she can either stick to her story OR - if it isn’t true – she can tell you the total truth. She can do so verbally or she can write it down. Her choice.

Tell her that no matter what she tells you NOW you will still be committed to reconciliation for at least 3 months. So, if she tells you about sex with OM then you will probably get angry, hurt but… you won’t storm out and file. You will give the marriage your best effort to reconcile from the TRUTH.

Also, tell her that remaining in this rut you doubt your marriage will survive three months… THIS is the tool to get you out of the rut. Tell her that trickle truth or discovering something minor like kisses later will do a lot more damage.

Let her know that no matter what she tells you now you will still be insisting on a poly. That poly will take place within a week. You have decided that if she fails some key questions then no matter what the effort on her behalf… the marriage is over. Failing the poly would indicate an even more serious problem in the marriage than the infidelity itself. It would indicate that she is keeping things from you, not trusting you and doesn’t feel safe around you. Therefore, her best (and only) option to save the marriage would be to be forthright NOW.

Really stress the latest part. Telling you of full sex NOW offers a path to reconciliation whereas failing the poly because she kissed OM (and didn’t disclose it now) will lead to divorce.

Regarding the poly: Just phone the ones that sound the best or have the best offices or whatever. Ask them if they have done legal work (like for the local FBI or whatever). Ask them if they do tests for private citizens dealing with marital issues and simply book an appointment. You want someone that takes time to listen to you and define what you want to know, someone that has an interview with your WW and then does the test. It should cost, but it beats getting a cheap poly with dubious results. By far the biggest mistake we BS make regarding a poly is not having the consequences clear. I must say that simply based on my time here on SI I would give your WW a maximum of 2/10 of her story of no-sex being true. Therefore, failing the poly shouldn’t be a surprise but all that would get you is that she has to tell you of SOME of the sexual acts. You need the TRUTH. You need detail to the level YOU need. You can’t afford to get a poly each time she adds to the story. IMHO you should define the poly as an end-point. It’s the fork in the path out of infidelity where you decide if YOU are taking the path of R or D out of infidelity.

Let me get one thing out of the way: OMW reaction.

It doesn’t matter. There might be all sorts of ethical reasons to tell OMW but the key reason IMHO is to end the affair. If the OM fits in with probably 19/20 OM then he dropped your WW and is focusing on covering his tracks and convincing his wife that she’s the center of the universe. No matter how convincing he was and no matter how much she denied his involvement his wife is on heightened sensor-level and he will be careful. If the OM was reaching out to your WW before you talked to his wife, then the chances are high he isn’t now.

He might try again, but for NOW then odds are very high there is NC. You would be wise to utilize this time.

I've been following but not posting on your thread. You've gotten lots of good advice.

Now Bigger has posted. King of wisdom, IMO, on SI. Read it over and over.

And get the poly scheduled and follow through. She's raising the topic herself because she think it will lull you into NOT following though.

Did you ever ask her about is it okay for you to be part of the open marriage?

Would she mind if you went by yourself to some ladies house with her? just the two of you?

@harrybrown -- W has told me a few times that if she found out that I had done what she has done, then she would be devastated.

@bigger -- Wow. Thanks for your wisdom. I am in a rut, we are in a rut. W seems ready to steam full speed ahead with R and is diligently working her way through book after book on boundaries, recovering from affairs, whatever suggestions she is getting from her IC therapist. Meanwhile I am still struggling to sleep and, despite my post above, deep down not convinced that W has demonstrated full honesty. She's tried to persuade me that all is disclosed because her mom believes her and the therapist asked her in IC if the affair was physical, to which she replied no. Neither of those things means jack from my vantage point. God, my youngest even approached me the other night and started to tell me that men and women can have platonic relationships. Thanks for that one, W.

I've read your post a couple times and will re-read it several more. I think your advice and approach is very good.

Pineapple , one of the things I insisted with my wife is that men friends are off the table indefinately. She proved to me she cant be trusted , so thats that. I agree that under SOME circumstance opposite sex friends, but the problem lies when one starts confiding in the person about personal things. If she hasnt read "not just friends" by Shirley Glass I would recommend it.

[This message edited by 1survivor at 2:18 PM, August 10th (Thursday)]

Have you read Joseph's letter located in the healing Library yet?

Earlier on you said you gave your wife a one-off chance to tell the truth.

What does that mean?

What would your reaction be if she told you now about sex with OM?

Is that an instant reason for divorce?

Could the fear of the consequences be the reason she sticks to her story?

But then – there is ALWAYS the possibility that there was no sex…

Bigger, the wise.

I did the same as you, gave her a one time ultimatium, come clean or else. No matter if it was years from now, if I found out you lied or omitted, automatic divorce.

It worked, I think I got all I will ever get, but then again I had enough proof that there was no choice, the damage couldn't get much worse, only a matter of details.

But as Bigger points out, it can lead to being painted into a corner, now if she comes clean, ( or is cleaner) she had admitted she lied. She started out that way, mine didn't.

I did,( 14 years later when I can almost laugh about it now, may to her dismay), I told her I wasn't going to divorce her at this point unless she pulls that shit again, and I asked her if there is anything she didn't tell me way back then. She said no, although I'm sure the details were minimized anyway.

Maybe a second chance to come clean after the initial confrontation to amend her original statement might be a consideration.