SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Please read my story, Missing.

http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=610517&HL=58131

I suffered far too long in limbo and paid the price mentally. Read my first post on the last page. If there is one thing I regret about my whole fiasco, it's how I handled the shit sandwiches that WW fed me. I never ever imagined I could live without my wife, but today I count the seconds to never see her ever again!

Please listen to Bigger, and all the fine people here, they want whats best for you. Take a leap of faith and implement everything they tell you. It will save your life!

And if you want my advice (because your WW has as much remorse as mine did), walk away. I took the leap of faith thinking that if I filed, my WW would wake up, but she never did. And I have ZERO regrets. I deserve better than to live my life hoping the my WW will choose me. Fuck that! I have self worth, and so do you.

Stay strong. We are all here for you!

arbuom,

I skimmed through your thread and there are a lot of similarities. Seemed like WW changed overnight. I can't even imagine dealing with this as long as you did. We are 5 months out since WW met OM for the first time and 2.5 months or so since D-day. I guess the biggest difference is your WW was still around the house for awhile and mine left 2 days after D-day.

You're right though lots of good advice even if it is hard to take it. Certainly looks like I'm headed to D.

Certainly looks like I'm headed to D.

MH2, You're headed out of infidelity. Never forget that.

MH,

I know what a tough time this is for you, but I want to say that I am very impressed by how you have handled this. You have not been treated well, quite the opposite, and maybe one day your wife will have an epiphany and see the reality of her actions and feel sorry and ashamed. Or maybe not. Regardless of that, we make our own karma in this world, and stuff like this has a funny way of catching up with people.

There are a few things I can add my two cents to.

“She deactivated her Facebook some time this morning. Second time she has done that. First time was when she found out I told her brother.”

Chances are that evidence of her actions was starting to accumulate there, and she knows you have access to it. She tells you she is not seeing the OM, but you say she is living with him, so she obviously has stuff she has to hide, from you, and her brother. For some people, that would make them reconsider if they should be doing that stuff in the first place, others feel that as long as they can get away with something, there’s nothing to worry about. Whatever the case, she in damage-limitation mode, and trying to hide what she is doing, which in its way is quite revealing about whether or not she thinks it would look good to anyone.

“I would suspect they haven’t hid it all that well at work and I’m pretty sure co-workers have noticed.”

“She doesn’t report to him. He is in a different department. Still very wrong though and I’m sure against policy for a multi-billion dollar company.”

It is possible that some people at work might suspect, but seriously, MH, I am sure they are keeping their ‘thing’ completely under wraps. Some small companies can be absolute hotbeds of infidelity, but big corporations tend to have cast-iron rules in place about inappropriate relationships, to ensure that they cannot be sued, and to prevent blow-ups at work. Some big companies even have it specially written into employees’ contracts. Call me cynical, but I believe that is the reason she is lying to you about still being with him.

Also, life in a big corporation is like being in a shark tank. There is back-stabbing, one-upmanship, taking credit for the work of others, you name it. I have friends who work in that atmosphere, and they hate it, and tell me they are on their guard all the time for people who may want to gain some advantage by undermining them or making them look bad. Think about the position your wife has put herself in; she just joined the company, and she is already sleeping with a manager. If word about that got onto the company grapevine, what would everyone be saying about her? That she’s trying to sleep her way to the top? That she’s working hard on getting a bonus for good performance? And those would be the ‘nice’ ones. Her reputation would be shot to pieces. The other women there would hate her, and every other manager would be trying to put the moves on her. And she, better than anyone, will know all this.

In fact, her decision to do this, for whatever motivation, makes very little sense at all. To bail out of a long relationship and marriage with no real explanation, no real plan? And for a career-minded person to begin their time at a big corporation by immediately sleeping with a manager? That could be career suicide. She has created a scenario in which she has all but demolished her marriage, and where she could get fired by the company for inappropriate behaviour…And for what possible gain or benefit?

She has put herself in a ridiculous situation, and it is no wonder she cannot really explain it you, and that she leaves so much stuff vague. I honestly don’t think she has a plan, which is why she cannot explain a lot of this, and why she is trying to hide so much of it. She knows how vulnerable she has made herself. Short of starting on heroin, it is hard to imagine how much more deliberate damage a person could do to their life.

The mid-life crisis is an interesting theory, and it might have something to do with it. It certainly seems more like an emotional implosion and a surrender to chaotic, disjointed impulses, than the product of any coherent or joined-up thinking. It is quite possible that she has dug a hole for herself and she doesn’t know how to get out or progress from it. What is she going to do? Return to a marriage she walked out of with no explanation or justifications of her actions? Marry the OM and live happily ever after? And the most baffling thing is that she did this to herself, as if she saw it as a series of good ideas.

And then there is the issue of the divorce. She filed in a fit of pique because you told her brother what she had done, which was effectively just a knee-jerk impulse, and quite ridiculous, because it implies that she thought all of this could be kept secret. She then got your counter suit and blew up at the notion of having to pay you alimony, when it should have been quite obvious to someone with a business brain that alimony was (1) going to be an intrinsic part of a divorce, and (2) the wealthier partner always pays the less wealthy partner.

Once again, these obvious things were greeted with a fit of pique, as if she didn’t see them coming, and as if she was being treated unfairly (her own behaviour having been scrupulously fair up to that point). And then, as that reality sank in, she had so little feeling one way or the other about divorce that she said she had to ask a lawyer for advice, as if she has no real idea about it herself.

“She is a risk taker, impulsive, keeps her emotions bottled up inside (depending on what we are talking about). I noticed the traits of risk taking and being impulsive right off the bat during our first date.”

It seems like she gave in to a series of previously unmentioned resentments, and barely considered impulses, which have left both of you in limbo. Where you may well stay for many more months, if her current performance is anything to go by. You say yourself:

“Right now it doesn't seem like she is really even thinking about coming back. She seems to just be living in the moment and doing what ever makes her "happy" for that moment. Although I'm pretty sure she really isn't happy.”

I think you are quite right. She did a series of things that she must have thought would work out great, and they haven’t. Which leaves both of you standing still, like a sailing ship with no wind to power it.

The reason I am saying all of this is because of what Bigger said at the end of his post about you taking control. You said:

“I really don’t think there is anything I can do now to end the A. It will either run its course or she will get her D. Whatever comes first I guess.”

MH, I know you love the person your wife used to be, and hell, we’ve all been in that spot where we pine for someone who has wronged us, but what I learnt is that my future only became mine when I stopped leaving the decisions to someone else and started planning for myself. I am in no way being unsympathetic here, quite the opposite, but your fate is not in her hands, nor should it be if she has become emotionally detached from you. It is in yours. Bigger laid out a very good plan, as he so often does, and what I want to say is that you are a good, bright man, with good values, and you can have a good life whatever happens in this situation.

“I want to hate her so much for what she has done and continues to do; but I just can't. I hate the actions she has taken but I still very much love her as a person. I don't even know how that's possible. It must be all the good times, how caring, honest and loving she always was.”

In terms of a philosophical viewpoint, I will never forget what a religious friend of mine told me his pastor said on the subject of ‘hate’:

Hate the sin, not the sinner.

MH, we all change as we move through life. I am 52 now, and although I might think I could understand my motivations from ten, twenty, or thirty years ago, the truth is that I would only ever be partly right, because we learn, grow, and change every day. Five years into the marriage, your wife was not who she was at the start of it. And now, she is not who she appeared to be just a year ago. It seems that she has become utterly selfish and self-centered, to the point where she feels no guilt or remorse about the impact of her actions on you, but this may simply be another stage on the journey of her life, and her development as a human being.

We could all argue about whether we think the development is going in a good or bad direction, but our opinions are irrelevant, because she is driven by something within herself, and she is going to have to go wherever the ride takes her. It certainly seems like she is simply adrift, but perhaps at this point in her life she needs to be. She obviously thinks so. Is she conflicted? Probably. Does she know what she is doing? Probably not. It certainly does not look like any kind of plan is coming together. Is she thinking about anyone else’s welfare? It doesn’t look like it. But should you hate her for reaching this chaotic point in her life? I can see how you could feel that way sometimes, but you are better to hate individual actions, and pity her as a person for being a slave to her own ill-considered impulses and lack of empathy.

The person you must love in all of this is yourself, so that you do right by yourself, and look after yourself as you would a brother or a best friend. Your world has been turned upside down because of your wife’s impulses, and it may be time to step back, disengage a bit, and draft a plan for taking yourself forward as an individual.

She must manage her life, and live with the consequences of her decisions, just as you must manage your life, and live with the consequences of the decisions you make. At the moment, you are basically a bystander, and my heart goes out to you, because I know how that must feel. But what Bigger said, and what I am trying to say, gently, and with complete empathy and respect for you, is that the state of limbo your wife’s actions has created could drag on for years unless you take some action to reclaim your life. And if you wait for years, hoping for her return, her impulsive nature may propel her to emigrate to Australia, or join a convent. And what will you have to show for the time you spent with your life on hold?

What I would suggest for you is that you give yourself a deadline, by which time, if she has not returned, you move forward with the divorce. It could be that doing that will give her a jolt of reality, and bring her back to you, but if it does not, then you will know that sitting around in hopeful limbo for years would have been a waste of time. You are a good and decent man, MH, and you deserve a good life, not a life on hold.

I honestly don’t think your wife knows what she is doing, or what she is looking for, so you need to take the steering wheel in your life and make some plans for yourself. I know that doing that may seem like a kind of defeat, but in reality it will be a positive step for both you and your wife, because it will either prompt a reconciliation, or it will free you both to continue your journeys in life after the impasse you have reached at the moment.

Chances are that evidence of her actions was starting to accumulate there, and she knows you have access to it. She tells you she is not seeing the OM, but you say she is living with him, so she obviously has stuff she has to hide, from you, and her brother. For some people, that would make them reconsider if they should be doing that stuff in the first place, others feel that as long as they can get away with something, there’s nothing to worry about. Whatever the case, she in damage-limitation mode, and trying to hide what she is doing, which in its way is quite revealing about whether or not she thinks it would look good to anyone.

She has gone to great lengths to hide just about everything she can from me. Maybe it is just part of the cheater playbook. Although I am a little surprised she just doesn't tell me the truth and move on. If that's what she really wants to do.

In fact, her decision to do this, for whatever motivation, makes very little sense at all. To bail out of a long relationship and marriage with no real explanation, no real plan? And for a career-minded person to begin their time at a big corporation by immediately sleeping with a manager? That could be career suicide. She has created a scenario in which she has all but demolished her marriage, and where she could get fired by the company for inappropriate behaviour…And for what possible gain or benefit?

Just to clear this up. My WW has been with the company for 5 years. The OM just since the end of April of this year. It is really odd that she did choose to have an A with a coworker. She was always upset and disgusted with professional women that did this. She always talked about how she wanted to make it to the top the right way. She did tell me a couple of days ago that she has applied to a couple of jobs. Not quite sure what her motivation is with that though.

She has put herself in a ridiculous situation, and it is no wonder she cannot really explain it you, and that she leaves so much stuff vague. I honestly don’t think she has a plan, which is why she cannot explain a lot of this, and why she is trying to hide so much of it. She knows how vulnerable she has made herself. Short of starting on heroin, it is hard to imagine how much more deliberate damage a person could do to their life.

I honestly don't know why she is risking so much personally or professional. Does she think the OM is going to take care of her if something happens. He might.....but for how long. It isn't likely she is going to be able to find a high paying job like the one she has all the easy.

Once again, these obvious things were greeted with a fit of pique, as if she didn’t see them coming, and as if she was being treated unfairly (her own behaviour having been scrupulously fair up to that point). And then, as that reality sank in, she had so little feeling one way or the other about divorce that she said she had to ask a lawyer for advice, as if she has no real idea about it herself.

I'm not sure what she expects to get out of talking to the lawyer. You either want to work on the relationship or you don't. Or is she just going to use the lawyer as another excuse as why she doesn't want to work on the M.

but your fate is not in her hands, nor should it be if she has become emotionally detached from you. It is in yours.

This is true....trying to work on this.

It certainly seems like she is simply adrift, but perhaps at this point in her life she needs to be. She obviously thinks so. Is she conflicted? Probably. Does she know what she is doing? Probably not. It certainly does not look like any kind of plan is coming together.

It certainly looks like she has no plan at all. I wonder what the next crazy twist will be.

She has gone to great lengths to hide just about everything she can from me. Maybe it is just part of the cheater playbook. Although I am a little surprised she just doesn't tell me the truth and move on. If that's what she really wants to do.

A couple of things come to mind. One is that she wants to have a backup plan available because she's not certain how everything will turn out. She needs you to not know some details so that it will be easier to get you to take her back if she needs that.

The other is that there is some level of shame buried in her mind that is driving her to hide her behavior that she knows is wrong.

Short update:

I found a few more data points tonight digging around. All I can say is wow! This A started so fast! The lies and deceit started almost instantly from the day they first met each other. I also was suspicious very early on....like only after a few days. I had no idea how early the lying and gas lighting started.....boy was it was quick!

You have received some very good advice from the people here at SI. With that said, here is my advice for you. Get all the money together that you can legally get. Have your lawyer handle your divorce. Pack up all your personal possessions. Load them in your truck. Call your wife and tell her you are leaving. Get in your truck and go back home. She has walked on stepped on, abused, pretty sure she and the AP have laughed at and ridiculed you and you are still there coming up with excuses to stay. The woman you married is gone, disappeared, dead. She is not coming back. Even if the person that you see, who looks like your wife, were to return she will not be the woman you married. Leave. Go back home. Are you enjoying being abused and knowing your wife is in bed with some old fat guy and you are sleeping alone. There is somewhere around 3 and 1/2 billion women in this world. There are probably several hundred thousand, in this county, who are compatible with you and would gladly take the place of your cheating wife. Stop wasting your life and do something. I do wish you well.

I found a few more data points tonight digging around. All I can say is wow! This A started so fast! The lies and deceit started almost instantly from the day they first met each other. I also was suspicious very early on....like only after a few days. I had no idea how early the lying and gas lighting started.....boy was it was quick!

And this is the same woman who came to your place with a big smile on her face and had you work on her car for six hours, and then went to dinner with you?

She's quite an operator, isn't she? Sorry, MH, that must seem a bit insensitive, but I am saying it as a mild 2x4. Her actions tell you far more about who she is now than her words ever will, and for your own good - painful as it is - you need to listen to those actions and hear what they are telling you.

At the moment, you have pressed the 'pause' button on your life, wondering if the person she once appeared to be is one day going to drive up to the house, get out of her car, and say that this has all been a bad dream, and life can somehow re-wind back five years. All you have to do for that to happen is wait. And wait. And wait.

I was in a similar situation when my 9-year relationship with the woman I thought was 'The One' was coming to an end. For most of the relationship, she had been kind, funny, generous, loving, and, I believed, honest. We were like best friends, often said the same thing at the same time, made each other laugh. Then, in the final year, she changed.

She became distant. There were awkward silences. Sometimes she would just look at me and say nothing. I kept asking her if something was wrong, was she alright...She would never say. Never opened up once. Then she started having nights away 'at a friend's place', 'seeing her grandma'. Then she came home very late after work a few times, with stories that seemed utterly bogus...I had several evenings where a vodka bottle kept me company instead of her...This was long before the internet, and forums like this, and had I posted here then, I would have been told about all the red flags, and what I should be doing.

Instead, I kept waiting and hoping that 'The One' would somehow return. She never did; she had checked out slowly, a little at a time, during the final couple of years we were together. Maybe my experience is why your situation strikes such a chord with me. It feels like you are in the same place where I was before things came to a head and my relationship.

Well, I waited and waited, kind of knowing where things were going, but I didn't want to be the one to finish it in case there was just the slimmest chance that...And then, one morning as we were getting ready for work, she looked at me and said, "It's over. I don't respect you anymore. I want to see other men".

I had hit a patch of unemployment that lasted several months, and on one of the very rare times I did get her to comment, towards the end, she had said, "I don't see where this is going", in relation to our life together. It wasn't about the money, because she earned more than me, it seemed more like she felt I wasn't doing enough to get my life sorted out, and she started seeing me in a new, unfavourable light. Kind of like that spiteful comment your wife made, about you "just being in it for the money"; a signal that we have fallen from grace in their eyes. Or maybe my "One" simply got bored. I don't know, and I will never know. But I do know that my months of waiting for a miracle while her actions told me one was very unlikely to happen were basically just me waiting for her to end it, because I just couldn't bring myself to do it. I know now that I should have. In that final year, we were just wasting our time.

MH, I very much wish we could go and discuss all this over a few beers. I really feel for you, and I see so much in your story that matches mine. The sad fact is, when they 'check out', they really have checked out. We don't like to accept it, so we wait and hope. We put our lives on hold and wonder if they will suddenly 'see the light'.

There may be many reasons for why she has done what she has done, and for the games she is playing, but just like me, you will never fully know, because she is hiding things, lying, and omitting to tell you things. Perhaps because truly coming clean would mean her having to admit who and what she has become now, to the one person in the world who believed she was better than that. Or because - as beenthereinco suggests - you might be her Plan B if things with the OM don't work out. Or because she is simply trying to put off a divorce that she knows is going to cost her, and might create a minor scandal. Or because she likes having two men interested in her. Or because having the potential to go back to you gives her some leverage in her relationship with the OM. Or because...

But do you see what is happening here? We are back focusing on her, trying to work out what she is doing, when the real focus needs to be you, and what you need to be doing.

MH, I am saying this to you as someone who had the same hopes that you currently have; once they have changed, they have changed. If your wife did come back, it would be the 'new' her that walks up the driveway. The her who has learnt to cheat, to lie, to hide, to avoid responsibility, to resent you and brand you as someone who is in it for the money. Knowing what you know about her capacity for betrayal and deceit now, if she did come back, could you ever trust her again, or would you always be wondering what she might be doing in the background? If she said she was sorry, and she loves you, you might want it to be true, but would you really believe it, or would you wonder if it was not just a snow job, because coming back suited her for the time being?

I guess what I am saying here is that if you are not taking any action because you are hoping, as I did, that the 'old' version of the women we love is going to return, that is very unlikely to happen. I am sorry to say that, because I know how you are hurting, but I am saying it in the hope that it will help you to reclaim your life and start planning a way forward based on the way things are now, however much we all wish they were different. If you wait for the old her to return, you will be waiting forever, because that is not her anymore.

Your first step in reclaiming your life would be to push forwards with the divorce, and let your lawyer got at it like a tenacious bulldog. Do not be put off by any nonsense from your wife about you only being in it 'for the money'. You have been very badly treated here, and your wife needs a reality check about how things work in the real world. You should get every last thing that is due to you, and your lawyers should begin by asking for the moon, with a view to possibly negotiating down and a bit of horse-trading going on as things get settled. But this should be pursued by your lawyer entirely in your best interests. You are not doing it to hurt her, you are doing it to defend yourself. You are hurting and vulnerable; you need a bulldog on your side, particularly as your wife is trying so hard to deceive you.

I am not sure if you have had any individual counselling, but it might be an idea to get some, to discuss your feelings. To be honest, you seem to be doing fine, but it might help you to unburden yourself to someone.

It is probably way too soon for you to think about dating anyone, but what anoldlion says is perfectly true; when you feel ready, there are plenty of great, honest women out there who would love and cherish a decent guy like you.

Do tell your family about what has happened, and any close friends who you think will be supportive.

One final thought, about the quote from the top of this post:

This A started so fast! The lies and deceit started almost instantly from the day they first met each other.

The speed is highly suspicious, to the point of being ridiculous. It seems more likely that this is someone she knew through the industry they both work in, maybe someone she met at a trade fair or a conference, maybe someone she encouraged to apply for a job with her company. There may well have been contact before he joined the company, unless he is a master hypnotist, because women do not fall that hard, that fast, and particularly not for men so unprepossessing as the OM. But isn't this all just another indication that your wife will never be a 'safe' life partner for you again, even if she did return?

I am sorry of the tone of this post seems downbeat, MH, but it is actually aimed at doing something positive, which is motivating you to start reclaiming your life and your future. You deserve better than the way you have been treated, but the only way you will get it is by moving on. If your wife wants to live in a world of lies with a tubby bald guy, and that is her idea of paradise, let her. You, my friend, can move onto the next stage of your life, unhampered by lies and deceit, and with a clear conscience and your principles intact. Which is much more than can be said for your wife.

Oh, and my life is pretty good now. It was tough to part company with the woman who I had thought was 'The One', but you know what? It was the right thing to happen, because things between us had run their course. I didn't want to accept that, but it was true. As I look back on it now, I am grateful for the 'good' years, and philosophical enough to accept that it was just not meant to be a 'forever' thing. Some things aren't.

A relationship needs the full commitment of both people, and that element slowly seeped out of mine until she was gone, emotionally, and then physically. In a way, it was liberating, because it got both of us out of a relationship that has stopped working. She went her way, I went mine. Our lives continued. I have loved again since then, I have felt the sun on my face, I have good friends, and I feel considerably better than I did in that final year of my relationship with 'The One'.

Maybe some of this will speak to you, MH, just as your story speaks to me.

Sending you strength, brother. Life will get better, I can promise you that, because I have come out the other side of what you are going through now.

M.

M1965,

Thanks for sharing your story.

At the moment, you have pressed the 'pause' button on your life, wondering if the person she once appeared to be is one day going to drive up to the house, get out of her car, and say that this has all been a bad dream, and life can somehow re-wind back five years. All you have to do for that to happen is wait. And wait. And wait.

In someways I have pressed the pause button. I am really trying to get out of this situation the best way I know how. Of course with anything it is a process. The more information I find the worse I feel about the whole situation. (not that I could feel much worse).

I can't keep doing this so I am about to pull the plug on the relationship (although it would appear that it was pulled a long time ago). I have asked her to come over just to talk and told her if we are done with each other we can be done with each other and proceed with the D and try to keep it as civil as possible. It looks like she is going to take me up on the offer to talk.

The speed is highly suspicious, to the point of being ridiculous. It seems more likely that this is someone she knew through the industry they both work in, maybe someone she met at a trade fair or a conference, maybe someone she encouraged to apply for a job with her company. There may well have been contact before he joined the company, unless he is a master hypnotist, because women do not fall that hard, that fast, and particularly not for men so unprepossessing as the OM. But isn't this all just another indication that your wife will never be a 'safe' life partner for you again, even if she did return?

I know what you mean but I pretty certain they didn't know each other before. I remember when he connected with her on a professional network site a day to two before he started. You're right though certainly is a sign will never be a safe life partner again. As hard as that is to say.

So with all that said I am trying to move forward and on with my life. It certainly is hard and I'm sure there are more rocky roads ahead.

MH,

This is a very hard thing, as I remember from my experience of it, but it sounds like you are getting to where you need to be in your own mind about this. Regardless of what I say, this is your life, and whatever you do has to be what feels right to you.

I can't keep doing this so I am about to pull the plug on the relationship (although it would appear that it was pulled a long time ago). I have asked her to come over just to talk and told her if we are done with each other we can be done with each other and proceed with the D and try to keep it as civil as possible. It looks like she is going to take me up on the offer to talk.

May I make a suggestion, based on your reply? And please reject this if it doesn't feel right to you, because it really is only a suggestion. It relates to this:

I have asked her to come over just to talk and told her if we are done with each other we can be done with each other...

The talk is a good idea, but my thought was just about the way it is being framed. I know I will look picky, but it relates to the "if" in "if we are done".

It suggests that you are still putting the power to decide in her hands, rather than making a decision about that yourself. My concern with that is what if she replies, "I just don't know...I need time..." She has certainly not been decisive, or even open or honest, up until this point, so getting an honest, black or white answer from her now may be difficult.

Letting her know that she has the power to decide if it is finally over leaves the door open to limbo continuing indefinitely. So, if you want to approach this by putting the power in her hands to decide 'yes' or 'no', you need to set a deadline date for her to deliver an answer, and - if no answer is received - it will be presumed to be a signal from her that things are indeed over, and you will begin the divorce. This lets her decide, but cuts out the potential for endless limbo.

Or, you could frame it this way, taking a more pro-active stance:

"I am not going to live in limbo any longer. That is not fair to me. It is clear that you are not coming back, so I am going to begin the divorce proceedings next week unless you are prepared to end your relationship with the OM and give our marriage another try. I am sorry that it has come to this, but I have to make a decision to protect myself from being hurt any more than I already have been. So I am asking you now: is our marriage over?"

Maybe that sounds too harsh, but being a nice guy has not worked so far, has it? However, if that kind of approach isn't for you, that's fair enough, it isn't for everyone. However, while it puts the decision in her hands, it cuts out the potential for her to drag things out endlessly and keep playing you, and it asks her to get off the fence and deliver a simple 'yes' or 'no' answer.

What you really need to think about, whatever approach you take, is what you will do with her answers. Try to think through as many scenarios as you can, and plan your response.

Question: Are we done?

Answer:

Yes - divorce proceedings begin a.s.a.p.

No - you need to think through what you need her to do if she says 'no', because there is the issue of ending the relationship with the OM and going 'no contact', how those things will be proved; her moving back; and setting a limited time-frame for these things to happen, so that she doesn't try to drag them out over a few months.

I don't know - This is where the problems come in, because it sends you straight back to limbo unless you are prepared to say something along the lines of, "That doesn't cut it with me, I have a life I need to be living, so unless I get an answer by X date, I am going to begin the divorce proceedings". I know that sounds harsh, particularly if she turns on the tears, but she does not have a good track record on honest answers or clarity with you, so being a bit 'hard line' is in your interest.

Do you want it to be over? - Answering a question with a question like that is a possibility. A potential answer for you could be, "No, but I never wanted you to have an affair in the first place, and you did, so what I want doesn't really count, does it?" You then return to the original question of whether it is over.

No, but I can't just end it with OM like that. You have to give me time. This affects my career. And he's a nice guy. I can't just drop him. - My response to an answer like that would be to punch the wall, and say, "I don't f*cking believe you just said that", but that isn't very productive. However, you have to be prepared to hear something like, and have some of your core 'needs' thought through and prepared. Things like:

- how long you give her to sever contact with the OM

- how long she has to move back back home

- what actions you need her to take to prove it has been ended, and that 'no contact' has been established. That might be difficult if they work at the same place, but she mentioned looking for other jobs, unprompted by you. That could signify 'trouble in paradise', and that she feels she cannot work there any longer after the inappropriate relationship with the OM, or it could signify that they know their inappropriate workplace relationship could cost both of them their jobs, so your wife, as the lesser earner of the couple, has agreed to find another job so they cannot be fired for an inappropriate workplace relationship. Given how much your wife hides from you, it is interesting that she mentioned that tidbit of information. What would be the point? To give you hope, or to tell you that reporting them to HR will not be an option for much longer? If she changes her job, it makes their relationship a lot safer, doesn't it?

I'm trying to find another job, to get my head together, you'll just have to wait - That kind of thing is just a delaying tactic, because the core question - Are we done - is perfectly simple and really does not need a whole bunch of other factors to be considered before an answer is given.

A third approach would be to not enter any lengthy discussions at all and just keep asking, "Are we done?" If she prevaricates, tries to waffle, tells you she doesn't know, etc, just keep repeating the same simple question. Eventually, she will tire of trying to BS you, and give you an answer.

Whatever approach you take, I think you should decide on a deadline date by which you require an answer. The ultimate goal is to get you out of infidelity, but the immediate goal of this conversation is to end the state of limbo and evasion that your wife has created. You setting a deadline does that, powerfully.

I hope none of this comes across as putting pressure on you. It is not meant that way, and please ignore any or all of it. I am just trying to be supportive by suggesting stuff to consider.

[This message edited by M1965 at 9:20 AM, September 28th (Thursday)]

M1965,

Thanks for the suggestions.

I am almost certain (say 99%) that she is going to say our marriage is over. Certainly not what I want to hear....but everything seems to be pointing that way now. I say this because it looks like she is making future plans with the OM, as in a few months down the line. Idk maybe that is normal behavior for a WW still in an A. The other thing is after asking her for this talk she has unfollowed me on another piece of tech.

What I plan to do with this talk is just to kind of let her know that she hasn't fooled me. That I know she never stopped the A and has been lying to me the whole time. I hope she will at least be honest with me....at least a little bit. I don't think it will change anything though. For whatever reason she is all in with the OM. I still find it odd that she will throw away our M for guy 15 years older that is she has only known/been involved with for around 5 months.

That I know she never stopped the A and has been lying to me the whole time. I hope she will at least be honest with me....at least a little bit. I don't think it will change anything though. For whatever reason she is all in with the OM. I still find it odd that she will throw away our M for guy 15 years older that is she has only known/been involved with for around 5 months.

...then why even bother w/ this "talk" if it involves anything other than a necessary discussion about semantics of the divorce. I dunno...just seems like you are shopping for more pain/disappointment.

Hope you get some "closure"

Hope you get some "closure"

That's what I am hoping to get with the talk.

Hope you get some "closure"

That's what I am hoping to get with the talk.

MH,

I very much hope that you do get closure. However, there is a possibility that your wife will still be in full avoidance/'keep the peace' mode.

If she appears to be making plans with the OM for the future, it seems likely that her search for other jobs and her avoidance of giving you an honest answer, lying, and coming over for happy-smiley days of car maintenance and dinner, are part of a concerted effort to prevent you getting upset enough to nuke them with their HR department before she has got another job.

She has already said that she thinks you are motivated by money, so I would not be at all surprised if she sees you as a potential threat because of that HR option, which might explain her rather pointed comment that she is, "Not done with you...Yet". It implies she is waiting for something to happen. For something to change.

The only thing that I can think of is her getting another job, which will neutralise the HR option. After that point, she does not have to fear upsetting you. Call me cynical, but I think you will see a big change in her as soon as she lands another job. Until that time, I think she is still going to try and and avoid anything - an admission, a decision - that might tip you over the edge and send you off on a revenge mission.

Frankly, I hope I am wrong, and that she will be honest with you and give you the answer you need to be able to move on, but you should not be surprised if she does everything she can to avoid doing that.

[This message edited by M1965 at 3:46 PM, September 28th (Thursday)]

Dear MH,

If you talk to her, you're going to get hurt.

Go ahead and talk to her all you want but know ahead of time that you're goign to come away from it with more hurt than when you came into it.

She will not be 100% truthful. She will use every tool in the Cheater's Handbook. She is no different that every other Cheater. She will behave like every other cheater. I've become convinced that it's a psychological given that when a happens, they behave like b.

And we chumps also follow a pattern.

Time to break the pattern, MH. Or you'll end up with another Cheater.

We all know that this hurts, but it's time to embrace the obvious.

“A relationship, I think, is like a shark, you know? It has to constantly move forward or it dies. And I think what we got on our hands is a dead shark.”

Woody Allen, Annie Hall

If she appears to be making plans with the OM for the future, it seems likely that her search for other jobs and her avoidance of giving you an honest answer, lying, and coming over for happy-smiley days of car maintenance and dinner, are part of a concerted effort to prevent you getting upset enough to nuke them with their HR department before she has got another job.

This is a very astute observation. Once she has another job, if you try to blow the whistle on POSOM with his HR, they will just lie and say they did everything right by waiting until she was no longer employed with the same company before anything really happened. History revision is something cheaters tend to excel at.

I hope I'm wrong, and just overly cynical, but it sounds like ass-covering by buff to me. The guy may be an amoral scumbag, but he ain't stupid.

there is a possibility that your wife will still be in full avoidance/'keep the peace' mode.

I also believe this will be the case. But I figured I need to give it one last ditch effort to see if she will come clean at least a little bit. This isn't effort to get her to comeback to me.

prevent you getting upset enough to nuke them with their HR department before she has got another job.

I'm not too concerned about this. She has been looking for another job for years. So unless she is willing to settle for a lot less money I don't think she will have one anytime soon.

but you should not be surprised if she does everything she can to avoid doing that.

Wouldn't be surprised if she never comes over for the talk either.

Take the best deal you can get while keeping the civility your mentioned.. Since you have been kind of mellow about the whole situation she will try to "civil" her way to get the best deal for her