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Wayward Side :
Anguish & regret

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Bishybish ( new member #60100) posted at 1:27 PM on Thursday, August 17th, 2017

I'm sorry, but I have to say this.

I feel like you're looking at that thread by CantSleepCantEat and using it as a template for how to respond to your wife and how to "prove" that you "get it" since your wife has responded favorably to how that poster is handling their situation. The real fact of the matter is that many have also commented on how much spin and deflection there is in that thread. There are strategies and angles being used in that thread to handle the criticism and I see you doing it too. It's the whole "you won't say I'm a monster if I say it" thing.

And then you write to your wife with graphic detail of your affair behavior and think you'll be rewarded for your "transparency"? Did you think about possibly triggering her? No, all you care about is how you look to her and most importantly, yourself. "I'm the thruthiest true-person that ever trued in Trueville!" And you wonder why people closest to you think you're full of shit? Truth doesn't need adornments or pomp and circumstance; it just *is*.

And stop fucking breaking down in front of her. It's selfish. You're the person that did this. YOU. If ANYONE has reason to cry about what you've done, it's HER; NOT YOU. It looks like a strategy and then she has to comfort you! Unbelievable. But actually, you know what? It's BELIEVABLE when we consider your overall behavior and narcissism.

[This message edited by Bishybish at 7:38 AM, August 17th (Thursday)]

posts: 27   ·   registered: Aug. 10th, 2017
id 7949143
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 mcw922 (original poster member #59867) posted at 1:37 PM on Thursday, August 17th, 2017

Thanks BishyBish,

I read CSCE's thread specifically at my wife's request. In fact, on Tuesday, my wife said "what could you be doing that is possibly more important that reading that thread and studying CSCE". She said "I wish you were her".

So yes, I read the thread. And I put a lot of thought into your point and even talked about it with my wife. i.e., that I DON'T simply want to read CSCE and then "emulate her" or as you put it "use it as a template".

If it comes across that way, I'm sorry. That's not what I'm trying to do.

I am learning that even though I haven't been deceitful or cheating or purchasing irresponsibly since D-Day...it's not nearly enough. I am learning that TRUE AND AUTHENTIC integrity, humility, unselfishness, and empathy are the keys to true remorse. And only THEN can reconciliation begin. My BW said this explicitly.

The problem is: I've always regarded myself as a guy with integrity, humility, and empathy. I have come to the realization (through these 6 grievous violations these past few weeks) that that is a BIG FAT LIE I have been telling to myself for years. Needless to say this is a shock to my foundation. But I am trying to understand it, and to learn how to be.

My wife said she sees those qualities in CSCE's evolution on her thread. My wife even posted that as a comment to her. So I am reading it to seek to understand. To see what my wife is seeing. So I can start to change. I'm talking about this with my IC. I am NOT simply trying to emulate or parrot what CSCE is saying to find a shortcut.

But I totally get how it might look that way.

"Love in such a manner that the person whom you love feels loved in the way THEY need to, and freely chooses each day to love you back."
WH (me): 42
BW: 41
Married 16 yrs, 4 children (2 sons, 2 daughters, 6-14yo)
Dday: 7/17/2017

posts: 65   ·   registered: Jul. 27th, 2017   ·   location: New Jersey
id 7949150
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Greeneyesbluezy ( member #58158) posted at 1:38 PM on Thursday, August 17th, 2017

I agree bishy.

In one of his posts from yesterday, his last sentence was " and you are blameless. I am responsible for all of it"

It's been edited this morning to "my wife is blameless."

Feels like manipulation and not true remorse.

Stop right there, I already don't give a fuck.

posts: 1248   ·   registered: Apr. 5th, 2017
id 7949152
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 mcw922 (original poster member #59867) posted at 1:40 PM on Thursday, August 17th, 2017

Bishybish-

And then you write to your wife with graphic detail of your affair behavior and think you'll be rewarded for your "transparency"? Did you think about possibly triggering her? No, all you care about is how you look to her and most importantly, yourself. "I'm the thruthiest true-person that ever trued in Trueville!" And you wonder why people closest to you think you're full of shit? Truth doesn't need adornments or pomp and circumstance; it just *is*.

You're right. I didn't think that would trigger her. Yet another huge f#cking blunder.

But I disagree with you about "all I care about is how I look to her". She wants me to acknowledge what I did, to own it, without defense or excuses or caveat. I was trying to simply do that. Yes, I guess I did it with too much adornment, as you put it. I'm trying.

"Love in such a manner that the person whom you love feels loved in the way THEY need to, and freely chooses each day to love you back."
WH (me): 42
BW: 41
Married 16 yrs, 4 children (2 sons, 2 daughters, 6-14yo)
Dday: 7/17/2017

posts: 65   ·   registered: Jul. 27th, 2017   ·   location: New Jersey
id 7949155
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 mcw922 (original poster member #59867) posted at 1:43 PM on Thursday, August 17th, 2017

Greeneyedbluezy --

In one of his posts from yesterday, his last sentence was " and you are blameless. I am responsible for all of it"

It's been edited this morning to "my wife is blameless."

Feels like manipulation and not true remorse.

I edited that because I had cut and pasted some sections from the email I sent my wife. when I re-read it this morning, I saw that I needed to edit that from 2nd person to 3rd person. That was the only reason.

[This message edited by mcw922 at 7:44 AM, August 17th (Thursday)]

"Love in such a manner that the person whom you love feels loved in the way THEY need to, and freely chooses each day to love you back."
WH (me): 42
BW: 41
Married 16 yrs, 4 children (2 sons, 2 daughters, 6-14yo)
Dday: 7/17/2017

posts: 65   ·   registered: Jul. 27th, 2017   ·   location: New Jersey
id 7949159
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Bishybish ( new member #60100) posted at 1:45 PM on Thursday, August 17th, 2017

Let me also just say this:

Bravo, bra-fucking-vo to your wife if she does actually contact a lawyer. She should arm herself with as much knowledge as possible while she waits to see how all this pans out. The level of betrayal here is so deep and so protracted, I admire her restraint.

You're a month from d-day. She hasn't even really hit "anger" yet.

posts: 27   ·   registered: Aug. 10th, 2017
id 7949162
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 mcw922 (original poster member #59867) posted at 1:58 PM on Thursday, August 17th, 2017

ChamomileTea,

Thank you for your detailed and thoughtful response. It is complicated for me to try to understand some of these concepts, but I am going to try. There were:

1. The mommy/son dynamic

2. My entitlement

3. compartmentalization = the monster

4. insufficiently fearful

5. write thoughts down and talk about them...don't dump a huge email (agree completely; that's what I will do from now on).

THE MOMMY/SON DYNAMIC -- there is clearly something here that is a problem and has been for awhile. You folks are emphasizing it. My wife has raised it. Her IC has raised it with her. It is something that has never occurred to me. I promise I will dig into this deeply with my IC and read the book by J.Gottman that you've recommended.

ENTITLEMENT -- Yes. I do see it and "get it" now. It's taken these 6 gross violations (I'm sorry I'm trying to find a term to adequately refer to these "mistakes"...but when I call them "mistakes" I'm told I'm minimizing them. I understand now that they are gross violations) over the past several weeks for me to be self-aware enough to see them for what they are: selfishness and entitlement. I am already far more attuned to these choices and making better ones.

COMPARTMENTALIZING / INSUFFICIENTLY FEARFUL:

Your therapist will probably call this "compartmentalization". Here's what you need to know though... your BW still might end up divorcing you and this will be the reason why. Because THAT is "the monster". It's the fact that you're capable of doing that.

I'm replaying what you've said in summary so I can try to get it: The fact that I'm insufficiently fearful is what allows me to be capable of compartmentalizing. And the fact that I'm CAPABLE of compartmentalizing IS THE MONSTER. I can't honestly say I understand. But I am DEFINITELY going to write that down in big bold letter in my IC notebook and raise that at my IC appointment tomorrow. I want to understand what it means. If that's the monster, I need to understand it and figure out how to kill it.

[This message edited by mcw922 at 8:01 AM, August 17th (Thursday)]

"Love in such a manner that the person whom you love feels loved in the way THEY need to, and freely chooses each day to love you back."
WH (me): 42
BW: 41
Married 16 yrs, 4 children (2 sons, 2 daughters, 6-14yo)
Dday: 7/17/2017

posts: 65   ·   registered: Jul. 27th, 2017   ·   location: New Jersey
id 7949174
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 mcw922 (original poster member #59867) posted at 2:07 PM on Thursday, August 17th, 2017

BishyBish-

The level of betrayal here is so deep and so protracted, I admire her restraint.

I agree completely. I am sickened by my own betrayal. I admire her restraint too.

"Love in such a manner that the person whom you love feels loved in the way THEY need to, and freely chooses each day to love you back."
WH (me): 42
BW: 41
Married 16 yrs, 4 children (2 sons, 2 daughters, 6-14yo)
Dday: 7/17/2017

posts: 65   ·   registered: Jul. 27th, 2017   ·   location: New Jersey
id 7949181
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sassylee ( member #45766) posted at 2:08 PM on Thursday, August 17th, 2017

I think that's backwards - your ability to compartmentalize is what's keeping the fear at bay. Uncomfortable thoughts are pulled out of your consciousness and placed safely in a little box where you don't have to face them and feel them.

This coping mechanism is what allowed you to party it up in Atlantic City. It's what allowed you to play golf all day and not check in with your BW. It's a form of conflict avoidance. It also paves the way for you to escape taking responsibility and ownership for the fallout of your betrayals.

My R(eformed)WH had a 5 month EA in 2012
In my 7th year of R
“LOVE is a commitment, not an emotion. It is a conscious act of a covenant of unconditional love. It is a mindset and a thought process.” - BigHeart2018’s Professor

posts: 11459   ·   registered: Nov. 29th, 2014   ·   location: 🇨🇦
id 7949183
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 mcw922 (original poster member #59867) posted at 2:31 PM on Thursday, August 17th, 2017

SassyLee -

Thank you.

This is all very confusing and hard for me to grasp, whether it's fear>enables>compartmentalization or compartmentalization>prevent>fear. I am trying. I can promise you I am going keep trying.

My actions and choices and betrayals are unforgiveable and I can't "undo them". All I can do is own them, understand and take responsibility for the consequences. And try to get to the bottom of what's broken within me (among many things, compartmentalization and fear, this mommy/son dynamic) and change.

Thanks for the time you take to comment.

"Love in such a manner that the person whom you love feels loved in the way THEY need to, and freely chooses each day to love you back."
WH (me): 42
BW: 41
Married 16 yrs, 4 children (2 sons, 2 daughters, 6-14yo)
Dday: 7/17/2017

posts: 65   ·   registered: Jul. 27th, 2017   ·   location: New Jersey
id 7949197
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 mcw922 (original poster member #59867) posted at 2:36 PM on Thursday, August 17th, 2017

ChamomileTea --

In the meantime, your wife isn't your mom. She's not your boss. She's not a bully. She's your partner, a partner who inexplicably still loves you. So, as a method of bringing her to your consciousness as you make daily choices, try acting like she's standing right next to you all day. Mentally bounce things off her.

I have been trying very hard to do exactly this for the past week in the wake of the 6 grievous violations. Every choice, every action, every word: what would my wife think of it.

"Love in such a manner that the person whom you love feels loved in the way THEY need to, and freely chooses each day to love you back."
WH (me): 42
BW: 41
Married 16 yrs, 4 children (2 sons, 2 daughters, 6-14yo)
Dday: 7/17/2017

posts: 65   ·   registered: Jul. 27th, 2017   ·   location: New Jersey
id 7949201
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 mcw922 (original poster member #59867) posted at 2:41 PM on Thursday, August 17th, 2017

ChamomileTea --

Talk with your IC about how you can integrate this aspect of your personality into a more conscious thought pattern. IOW, how do you keep from dumping certain less palatable thoughts into the box so that you're not using them in your higher thought process for decision-making. You have to learn to keep all data running through the frontal cortex so that you're not hiding things from yourself as you make daily choices.

I've read this paragraph like 10 times, and I am having trouble understanding it. If you are willing and able, can you elaborate a little? Or give me a tangible example/scenario maybe?

If not, no worries. If you can I'd really appreciate it.

"Love in such a manner that the person whom you love feels loved in the way THEY need to, and freely chooses each day to love you back."
WH (me): 42
BW: 41
Married 16 yrs, 4 children (2 sons, 2 daughters, 6-14yo)
Dday: 7/17/2017

posts: 65   ·   registered: Jul. 27th, 2017   ·   location: New Jersey
id 7949208
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onlytime ( member #45817) posted at 3:25 PM on Thursday, August 17th, 2017

I can't help but notice that there is a lot of superficiality and glibness in your posts. Your responses lack any insight or depth, and reflect a serious lack of empathy.

It seems to me that you are using this forum as a tool to manipulate as well as an attempt to feed your ego.

R'd w/ BetterFuture13
T 20+ yrs w/ adult kids 😇 + grands
"The greatest glory in living lies not in never falling, but in rising every time we fall" ~Nelson Mandela

posts: 6298   ·   registered: Dec. 3rd, 2014   ·   location: 🇨🇦
id 7949260
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 mcw922 (original poster member #59867) posted at 3:45 PM on Thursday, August 17th, 2017

onlytime -

I'm sorry. I'm not trying to be glib or superficial. These concepts like compartmentalization are foreign to me, so I am literally trying to understand them like a kindergartener is trying to understand the alphabet. I'm also squeezing these posts in between conference calls, which means I may be a little curt.

The last 15 hours I've been a complete emotional wreck. Manipulation and feeding my ego are the last things i'm striving for right now. If the opposite is coming out in my words...I'm sorry. I'm trying.

[This message edited by mcw922 at 9:47 AM, August 17th (Thursday)]

"Love in such a manner that the person whom you love feels loved in the way THEY need to, and freely chooses each day to love you back."
WH (me): 42
BW: 41
Married 16 yrs, 4 children (2 sons, 2 daughters, 6-14yo)
Dday: 7/17/2017

posts: 65   ·   registered: Jul. 27th, 2017   ·   location: New Jersey
id 7949270
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smokenfire ( member #5217) posted at 4:19 PM on Thursday, August 17th, 2017

This journey, should you actually chose to stay on the path is only JUST beginning. It's not going to feel good, be much fun, and there's no ego stroking or feels good. I don't know that you are up for the task at hand.

Why?

Because you lived two lives and were perfectly okay with doing so as long as you could juggle and keep everything in the air, it was all good.

This means you literally have to tear yourself down to NOTHING and rebuild. That's different then remodeling a room or adding a wing. It means giving up everything you feel good about yourself because it isn't real and replacing it with something that is honest.

Feeling sorry for yourself does nothing to further your cause. You didn't feel sorry for yourself when you were surrounded with material goods and women stroking your ego telling you how great you are. Breaking down now appears (understandably) that you are sorry you got caught. Never once did you look at yourself and think it's sad I am so selfish and need all this to feel good about myself.

I'm just telling you how it is. I was raised by wolves and have spent thirty years discarding what I believe so I can replace it with what IS. It's not fun but it is worthwhile and incredibly liberating.

Don't food shop when hungry, or date when you're lonely
How others treat you IS a reflection of your SELF worth, but not your actual WORTH.

posts: 9253   ·   registered: Aug. 26th, 2004   ·   location: Central Texas
id 7949301
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Bishybish ( new member #60100) posted at 4:27 PM on Thursday, August 17th, 2017

I've read this paragraph like 10 times, and I am having trouble understanding it. If you are willing and able, can you elaborate a little? Or give me a tangible example/scenario maybe?

If not, no worries. If you can I'd really appreciate it.

I think I know what she's getting at. It's a combination between compartmentalization and rationalization.

When you're faced with a choice, you seem to semi-consciously identify negative aspects of what that choice means about who you are and shunt them to another place or destroy them entirely.

For example, the input you receive is "happy birthday" from some rando on Facebook.

How do you respond?

Option A: Not responding. You immediately dismiss the option of just not responding because then you don't get to enjoy the validation.

Option B: You could say "thanks", and leave it at that, but then there's no fun to be had. Also, if you say "thanks", you're encouraging this correspondence, which is probably not proper, but you immediately shunt that to the trash and rationalize that "hey, I can say 'thanks' to people when they say something nice, right? Like, what's the harm, right?"

Option C: You could engage in the conversation, get more validation by flirting. Doing this is improper* in the context of a committed relationship in which flirting with randos is not really sanctioned, and it would make you a shithead for doing it. What you do to get around that is rationalize that you're not a shithead, so that's shunted to the trash, and then you build a space in your mind in which flirting with this person is somehow being done by a separate "you" than the "you" who is married, so therefore it's not really "real". Except it is.

It's a combination of basically you identifying aspects of a choice which would reflect negatively on your character, but you remove those negative connotations from the choice, shunt them to another place or the trash, and then build walls around the choice that are only entered by a separate and different "you" that you think you have constructed to keep from being culpable for your actions.

But that "you" is you. It might be your truest self. That's what your wife is afraid of. Not a monster, but the possibility that this has been who you were the whole time, that you're basically just like this.

*Flirting can, itself, be a harmless thing depending on a couple's boundaries. There is a difference, however, between one on one text based messaging in which one's partner is not privy, versus being flirted with out in public where you're with your partner and they have the option of shutting it down, or laughing it off and saying "yeah, s/he's great, isn't s/he?"

[This message edited by Bishybish at 10:38 AM, August 17th (Thursday)]

posts: 27   ·   registered: Aug. 10th, 2017
id 7949311
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 mcw922 (original poster member #59867) posted at 5:02 PM on Thursday, August 17th, 2017

Smokenfire,

This journey, should you actually chose to stay on the path is only JUST beginning. It's not going to feel good, be much fun, and there's no ego stroking or feels good. I don't know that you are up for the task at hand.

I understand. I do.

But this is important. And I want to do this. And I owe it to my wife and to my kids to, so I need to do this. Making sure my kids grow up healthy and with a good role model is my job.

"Love in such a manner that the person whom you love feels loved in the way THEY need to, and freely chooses each day to love you back."
WH (me): 42
BW: 41
Married 16 yrs, 4 children (2 sons, 2 daughters, 6-14yo)
Dday: 7/17/2017

posts: 65   ·   registered: Jul. 27th, 2017   ·   location: New Jersey
id 7949351
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 mcw922 (original poster member #59867) posted at 5:08 PM on Thursday, August 17th, 2017

Smokenfire,

This journey, should you actually chose to stay on the path is only JUST beginning. It's not going to feel good, be much fun, and there's no ego stroking or feels good. I don't know that you are up for the task at hand.

I understand. I do.

But this is important. And I want to do this. And I owe it to my wife and to my kids to, so I need to do this. Making sure my kids grow up healthy and with a good role model is my job.

"Love in such a manner that the person whom you love feels loved in the way THEY need to, and freely chooses each day to love you back."
WH (me): 42
BW: 41
Married 16 yrs, 4 children (2 sons, 2 daughters, 6-14yo)
Dday: 7/17/2017

posts: 65   ·   registered: Jul. 27th, 2017   ·   location: New Jersey
id 7949355
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Bishybish ( new member #60100) posted at 5:11 PM on Thursday, August 17th, 2017

Smokenfire,

This journey, should you actually chose to stay on the path is only JUST beginning. It's not going to feel good, be much fun, and there's no ego stroking or feels good. I don't know that you are up for the task at hand.

I understand. I do.

But this is important. And I want to do this. And I owe it to my wife and to my kids to, so I need to do this. Making sure my kids grow up healthy and with a good role model is my job.

This is what I also don't think you understand yet. Your responsibility is to help your wife HEAL.

HEALING might mean she stays with you and you work through this.

HEALING might mean she leaves you.

If you love her, truly love her, you will want her to HEAL above all else, regardless of what it means for you, your finances, where you sleep, or whether you're still married to her.

That's what having made the choices you made actually means when it comes to healing.

posts: 27   ·   registered: Aug. 10th, 2017
id 7949363
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ChamomileTea ( Moderator #53574) posted at 9:49 AM on Friday, August 18th, 2017

The fact that I'm insufficiently fearful is what allows me to be capable of compartmentalizing. And the fact that I'm CAPABLE of compartmentalizing IS THE MONSTER. I can't honestly say I understand. But I am DEFINITELY going to write that down in big bold letter in my IC notebook and raise that at my IC appointment tomorrow. I want to understand what it means. If that's the monster, I need to understand it and figure out how to kill it.

You were insufficiently fearful of losing your marriage because you had compartmentalized the most likely consequences of your actions (forfeiture of the marriage). IOW, the very likely consequence of becoming divorced due to your betrayal didn't factor into your decision-making process. You had hidden that data from yourself, even though it was clearly a huge risk. You made many, many choices along the way which didn't factor in the possibility (or even likelihood) of those particular consequences.

It's typical for people to consider consequences as part of the decision-making process. If, say for example, I decide to build a fence... am I sure I know my property lines? If I don't, my neighbor might sue me. Am I sure that the materials I choose will suit my purposes? If they don't, my fence will fall over. Making decisions involves consideration of the possible consequences. But for you, the very real possibility that you would lose your marriage, your family dynamic, the respect of important people in your life, even your health and your wife's health weren't part of your decision-making process. You had boxed those things up.

Talk with your IC about how you can integrate this aspect of your personality into a more conscious thought pattern. IOW, how do you keep from dumping certain less palatable thoughts into the box so that you're not using them in your higher thought process for decision-making. You have to learn to keep all data running through the frontal cortex so that you're not hiding things from yourself as you make daily choices.

I've read this paragraph like 10 times, and I am having trouble understanding it. If you are willing and able, can you elaborate a little? Or give me a tangible example/scenario maybe?

Brains are kind of like organic computers. If you study information on PTSD in books like The Body Keeps Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk or Rewire Your Anxious Brain by Pittman and Karle, what you'll find is that our emotional brain, the amygdala, is only very loosely connected to our higher functioning prefrontal cortex. So, under stress, the amygdala gives us basically "fight, flight, or freeze". The hippocampus then retrieves memories which might apply to our circumstances, and the prefrontal cortex makes decision/judgment about the situation.

Compartmentalization is widely accepted as an anxiety mechanism... and here's where I'm going to extrapolate a bit from what I've read... I believe that we sometimes hide rather obvious information from ourselves in order to circumvent our amygdala and avoid its stress signals. I think some of us do that because we want what we want in the moment and it's become something of a habit to bypass the stress response. Bypassing the stress response fails to engage the hippocampus which would otherwise inform us of the possible consequences of our actions, hence engagement of the prefrontal cortex without all the relevant factors.

Bear in mind that this is speculation, but I believe we can retrain the brain NOT to compartmentalize by learning to refrain from circumventing the decision-making process. IOW, "we want what we want when we want it" needs to be brought into conscious thought (with our feelings processed by the amygdala), pertinent memories retrieved from the hippocampus, and accurate judgment made by the prefrontal cortex before action is taken. We need to ask ourselves in that moment of "wanting" what it's all really about. Why do we "want" that? Why do we want it right now? What feelings are we trying to avoid?

So, in therapy, you get down to brass tacks about what you were feeling before you decided to take action. What feelings precipitated your desire to commit adultery or to tell a lie in each instance? Then, how can you allow those feelings to process naturally through the brain without compartmentalizing and making poor choices?

I'm not sure if that makes sense or not. There's so much more that goes into brain function than just those basics. We're human animals, and in some aspects we're not only at the mercy of our body's biology (ie. are we creating and utilizing neurotransmitters effectively?), but also of our nurturing as children (what memories are available to the hippocampus to draw on?)

I do fervently believe though that if we desire it strongly enough, we CAN retrain our brains and make better use of our "organic computer".

[This message edited by ChamomileTea at 3:56 AM, August 18th (Friday)]

BW: 2004(online EAs), 2014 (multiple PAs); Married 40 years; in R with fWH for 10

posts: 7098   ·   registered: Jun. 8th, 2016   ·   location: U.S.
id 7950017
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