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mcw, I guess in a way you could look at it as a bastardization of sorts of what the marriage commitment actually IS in the first place. You enter into this pact with another person on faith and hope, without any guarantee that the marriage will last forever or that some crisis won't come around that will reduce it to ash. But that doesn't stop you from putting your all into giving it the best shot at succeeding, you know? At least, in the beginning.

If people went into marriage thinking, "In ten years, my partner will cheat on me" or "In five years, my wife will develop a terminal disease" or anything like that, it would be untenable. People work towards the positive outcome, without dwelling on the potential negative outcomes, because if they did then it would be self-fulfilling prophecy, you know? How could something succeed if it was seen to have 'bad odds' from the get-go?

This was a long-winded way of saying that I think the point is not to dwell on what COULD happen. It doesn't matter - you're committed to doing the work, regardless of whether you have assurances of the outcome. True, marriage starts fresh and you're facing an uphill battle from a crisis that already happened, but...some concepts stick. You know? Much luck and strength to you both.

[This message edited by beauchateaux at 3:16 PM, August 21st (Monday)]

Thanks Beauchateaux, that is a very helpful way to look at it.

My wife actually wrote on another WS's thread "commitment to an outcome does not equal trying to control the outcome".

So I guess that's in a sense what you are saying.

I totally get that the choice is hers alone to make, in her own time. All I can do is give her every reason to want to rebuild with me.

Back to one thing that my wife said, which I am struggling to understand...

She said I need to "sit with the pain and feel it...experience it".

She said I need to "sit with the fact that I am a selfish, immature man, without integrity. Sit with the fact that I'm a risk to the family". (I'm paraphrasing a bit, because I can't recall her EXACT words).

Until I do this, she says, she will have a hard time accepting anything I am saying or doing as sincere / authentic.

I want to do this. I don't know how. What action to take. She said its not "an action". I just don't get it. I feel horrible and ashamed for what I've done to her. I was with her while she was crying and suffering visibly the other night, and I felt so bad. Feel so bad. I devastated this woman I love. I accept that I am selfish, immature, and without integrity.

I just don't know what she means when she is asking for this?

Any insight or advice or recommendations?

She said I need to "sit with the fact that I am a selfish, immature man, without integrity. Sit with the fact that I'm a risk to the family". (I'm paraphrasing a bit, because I can't recall her EXACT words).

Sorry, but it sounds like you weren't listening if you can't remember her words, which were probably important to her.

You say you accept it, but have you really experienced it?

You're a threat to your family, she's right. You were caught by your child (god knows how). You took money from your family for your affairs. You actively said to your family through your actions: "you don't matter to me."

She wants you to sit with these feelings without trying to rescue yourself or look to her for comfort or be a showman about sitting with it.

[This message edited by Bishybish at 8:54 PM, August 21st (Monday)]

She said I need to "sit with the pain and feel it...experience it".

This is what I was trying to convey to you in an earlier post, mcw. You might want to go back in this thread and read that again. It takes many layers to uncover these things so getting it in it's entirety the first time can't be expected. It is a process...and something that I perceive you are subconsciously trying to circumvent. You just want to get to the end result...and that's a perfectly normally reaction for people that have learned to shut off their experience of pain - truly experiencing the pain while still staying present in it.

You seem to experience pain as shame...as in, I'm a bad horrible person. You're very comfortable owning that part of it (and I would suspect you have a strong basis of shame and guilt as part of your upbringing - would be worth exploring that with an IC). But shame and guilt seems to throw you directly in action...almost a frenzy kind of action, driven by a desperation to control the outcome. It's almost a perception of "If I can hurry up and turn this bad around to good then I can get off this hot seat and get my life back under control." That's not necessarily a negative - and this is where I think you are getting lost. Focusing on fixing the problem seems like it should be a good thing in your book. And I believe you intentions in that are pure. However, when that behavior is driven predominantly by an avoidance of experiencing pain then it becomes outcome manipulation...and that reads as such because it's lacking the level of sincerity that only comes from the truly experiencing the pain of your choices.

This is one reason I have not pushed you - and personally cringe when I see it being pushed - for you to focus on your wife's healing. For someone that is avoiding encountering their own pain (which is what ultimately led you to make the choices you did) - focusing on an action or outcome is a welcomed escape. It only perpetuates the already existing poor coping mechanism - which is looking for ways to avoid yourself by focusing on things outside of yourself.

Did that make any sense? Your affairs, the healing of your marriage/wife - it's all the same coin, just different sides.

You've got some deep internal work to do. Not to become a "better person" (or husband)...but rather to become a more authentic person. The only way to do that is to actually get in touch with the essence of who you are. But my suspicion is that you believe (likely subconsciously) that there is some terrible, bad person inside of there...or some terrible bad emotion/pain that will consume you if you venture into it. So you operate with a perspective of pain as an intellectual understanding - something that you merely translate as being either "good" or "bad" - but never actually experiencing it beyond just the label. Yes...this is about your wife's pain. But it is about your wife's pain as a beacon to guide you to your own internal pain.

Do you feel like there is a piece to all of this that you just cannot seem to get? You're taking in the words. You're applying the steps...but it still just seems to be out of reach? You just keep missing the target.

That's because what you need is INSIDE of you. The connection you are looking for, the connection that is the broken link in all of this is inside of you. This is where you have to look. Everything else is just a rabbit trail.

Keep digging. Just keep doing that. How do you do with anger? It may be worth exploring your anger (within a safe environment - not necessarily your marriage) to see if it can maybe lead you back to those other feelings. Anger is often the guard of that hidden passage.

@BishyBish:

Sorry, but it sounds like you weren't listening if you can't remember her words, which were probably important to her.

I was most definitely listening. I was looking directly into her eyes, hearing every word, and having a conversation with her about it. It was part of a longer, emotional and difficult conversation. She was very emotional and so was I, and so I just don't remember the precise words verbatim. But I most definitely remember the full intent and spirit of what she was asking for...and was just inquiring about how to do it, because I don't think i understand.

She wants you to sit with these feelings without trying to rescue yourself or look to her for comfort or be a showman about sitting with it.

Yes I totally understand this. How to do it is what I struggle with. My wife and I did talk about this (she was open to talking about it) subsequent to these posts. Her suggestion was to start with a very simple statement (and there are many of them), such as "I put my children's future and well-being at risk", or "I put my wife's health and life at risk", or "I am a selfish, immature person", or "I am a cheater and a liar, not a person with integrity". And to just lay there with no distractions and think through how I felt when I did these things, and to reflect on them through THE lens of these simple statements. And yes, as you put it, not seeking to "figure out how to solve the problem" as I do. To feel how I feel in that moment. To try to feel and experience the pain. I am going to try. I'm sure it will be difficult to (a) do it, (b) feel it when I do do it. But it is important.

@Trustsetmefree -

Thank you for your thoughtful and insightful comments. You clearly put a lot of time into writing this, and I really appreciate it and thank you.

You seem to experience pain as shame...as in, I'm a bad horrible person. You're very comfortable owning that part of it (and I would suspect you have a strong basis of shame and guilt as part of your upbringing - would be worth exploring that with an IC). But shame and guilt seems to throw you directly in action...almost a frenzy kind of action, driven by a desperation to control the outcome. It's almost a perception of "If I can hurry up and turn this bad around to good then I can get off this hot seat and get my life back under control." That's not necessarily a negative - and this is where I think you are getting lost. Focusing on fixing the problem seems like it should be a good thing in your book. And I believe you intentions in that are pure. However, when that behavior is driven predominantly by an avoidance of experiencing pain then it becomes outcome manipulation...and that reads as such because it's lacking the level of sincerity that only comes from the truly experiencing the pain of your choices.

I am experiencing pain as shame, yes. And also disbelief. And (I really do believe) remorse. Being with her as she was wracked with sobbing grief and anguish, as she was visibly suffering.......FUCK. My heart was truly bleeding for her, and will always.

And you're right -- when I am committed to something and truly choose to do it, I definitely launch into making an action plan and taking action. It's what I do for a living in fact. And yes, this seems like a good thing. A productive thing. I don't necessarily agree (nor do I disagree...I guess I'm struggling with your notion) that is is "driven by an avoidance of experiencing pain". Maybe it is, I dunno. But I really feel like I simply don't know how to sit down, ignore the action plan and the outcome, and "experience the pain". I'm almost like "what are the steps i need to take to experience pain".....which is a microcosm of your whole point. I don't feel like I'm avoiding it. Just don't know how to do it. But maybe I'm wrong; maybe I am avoiding it / procrastinating. I don't know. This is hard and confusing, but I'm trying to get it and your and others' thoughts help.

You've got some deep internal work to do. Not to become a "better person" (or husband)...but rather to become a more authentic person. The only way to do that is to actually get in touch with the essence of who you are. But my suspicion is that you believe (likely subconsciously) that there is some terrible, bad person inside of there...or some terrible bad emotion/pain that will consume you if you venture into it. So you operate with a perspective of pain as an intellectual understanding - something that you merely translate as being either "good" or "bad" - but never actually experiencing it beyond just the label.

I know I have a lot of internal work to do. That is clear to me. I'm not sure I agree with your thought about becoming more "authentic". I've done a ton of work (individually AND with my wife) at the Landmark Forum, so I definitely UNDERSTAND it (as you said, intellectually / theoretically). I view authenticity as having complete alignment among my values and beliefs, my thoughts, and my words. So i believe I am authentic. However, my authenticity ABSOLUTELY broke down during the period of time I was cheating.

What I can now clearly see is that i don't have INTEGRITY. which is something different (and more) than authenticity. To me, integrity is complete alignment among values, believes, thoughts, words, AND ACTIONS AND THE CHOICES ASSOCIATED WITH THEM. This is where I am broken. I've always regarded myself as a man of integrity. But I'm not. My choices and actions couldn't have been LESS aligned with my beliefs and values and words.

And I'm not trying to "intellectualize" myself out of this. I own these actions and these choices and the devastation they've caused. I am responsible for all of it, and nothing made me do it.

Do you feel like there is a piece to all of this that you just cannot seem to get? You're taking in the words. You're applying the steps...but it still just seems to be out of reach? You just keep missing the target.

That's because what you need is INSIDE of you. The connection you are looking for, the connection that is the broken link in all of this is inside of you. This is where you have to look. Everything else is just a rabbit trail.

YES. i absolutely feel this way. I look back at what I did and it is like an out of body experience. I am dumbfounded. And I KNOW with every fiber that I am not going to do these things ever again...because I don't want to. But HOW do i know is what my wife is struggling with, and what I don't have an answer for (yet!!). She even said to me the other night that she's pretty damned convinced that I'm not going to do anything adulterous again; that I have been truly and deeply traumatized by my own betrayals and the pain they've caused her and me. She's 1,000% correct. But she's concerned that whatever "need(s)" I was trying to fill with these affairs, that I will seek to fill them with other destructive behaviors...mostly related to finances: she mentioned gambling, reckless spending, crazy investments, buying a fishing boat (?), obsessively collecting odd antiques...yes she mentioned all these things for real. I know I'm not going to do those things. But how do I know? I dunno.

The past few days, my BW has been keenly looking into ways of achieving "financial segregation", but without actual Divorce: post-nuptual agreement, mediation (NOT lawyers), "financial divorce".

She believes that there are two categories of fear and anger that she is struggling with: (1) the financial risk to our children and to her, (2) my extreme emotional and sexual betrayal of her. She believes that if she can feel safe and secure about #1, then we can really start to reconcile #2, because we both love each other and are committed to rebuilding a happy, loving marriage.

I am totally supportive of ANYTHING that makes her feel safe and secure. She is exploring a number of alternatives, including one where we ACTUALLY do legally divorce, but we don't move out, we don't tell anyone....we legally divorce, TEMPORARILY, but we don't physically/emotionally divorce. Then we can re-marry and start fresh (her words, not mine). And get her new jewelry (yep, she said that!).

She says that even THINKING of these things and researching the viability of the alternatives (and that there ARE viable alternatives that can give her true financial security permanently, and DON'T mean actually leaving each other) makes her feel so much better. And makes her capable of "being" with me in a more constructive and loving way.

We've talked about this at length the past two nights. I am totally in. While I'll admit, it's uncomfortable and strange to think of actually "divorcing so that we can remain together", I'm open to unconventional things. And there's a teeny-tiny part of my brain that is saying "is this a trick?". I know it's not; I know she's being sincere. Less than an hour ago, we even agreed we don't like the word "Divorce"...it has connotations that we don't want. We've relabeled it: "Financial Segregation". We're just exploring the right process / legal approach to achieve it.

In a truly bizarre way, I am actually excited about this...on one hand, I know that there are no secret accounts or shenanigans going on, aside from some low/medium-order wasteful spending (which I've stopped and will control going forward). And the affairs are over, forevermore, so I'm not ever going to be spending money on OP's. BUT: what I think or know is irrelevant. She doesn't know it, so she's scared. And so she needs this to feel secure. So I'm totally fine with whatever mechanism helps her take steps toward the outcome we both want: true reconciliation and a happy marriage for good.

We have had a vacation to Portugal planned (my wife, me, her dad, and two friends of ours). STUNNINGLY, she is comfortable with me going. She was actually planning activities and excursions yesterday and thinking of things I would like to do. Our flight leaves in 5 hours, and we return next Thursday (the Thurs before Labor Day). So I believe my SI posting will be minimal for the next week. But it's because we are being with each other.

And I KNOW with every fiber that I am not going to do these things ever again...because I don't want to.

But you wanted to before the infidelity spree? What about on your wedding day...did you know you wanted to be unfaithful on that day? What about when your children were born - did you want to cheat then?

The fear for the BS is that here, in the fallout - the WS doesn't ever want to cheat again...until they do. I'm sure there wasn't a day you woke up and said "Today, I will begin committing adultery." In fact, you probably can't identify the exact moment you went from wanting to be faithful to wanting to cheat on your wife.

The day my husband held my hands and looked into my eyes and said the words in the above quote box, I flipped out. Lost my shit. I need my H to KNOW with EVERY fibre, that he is 100% capable of doing this again. It's the only way he can be sure he actively take the actions necessary to protect us from it again. By acknowledging this destructive coping mechanism, he can consciously develop healthier ones and recognize when his old ways of coping are at risk of being used again.

When I get into an accident at a particular intersection - I don't say "that was awful. I will never get into an accident again!" No - I say "That was awful. I could happen again, so I will drive with particular caution through this area. I'll even choose to drive defensively at EVERY intersection, just to be sure. Because while it's unlikely to happen again - I know it's possible so I will be aware and cautious at every light."

[This message edited by sassylee at 12:04 PM, August 23rd (Wednesday)]

MCW, let me ask you this: do you think you deserve forgiveness? And if so, why?

I think the whole "start fresh" thing sounds like it plays right into your hands. You get to act like none of this happened and save your ego.

I mean, if that's what she wants, if that's what means healing to her, then that's what she should do.

In my opinion, it's rug sweeping.

I don't believe for a single second that you won't pull this bullshit again down the road; you'll just be smarter about it. And with your newly minted financial segregation, it might be more difficult for her to figure out if you're doing it.

Good for you though, I guess.

[This message edited by Bishybish at 8:14 PM, August 23rd (Wednesday)]

Sassylee,

The fear for the BS is that here, in the fallout - the WS doesn't ever want to cheat again...until they do. I'm sure there wasn't a day you woke up and said "Today, I will begin committing adultery." In fact, you probably can't identify the exact moment you went from wanting to be faithful to wanting to cheat on your wife.

I understand. I know that just because I believe I won't cheat again and I never intend to (just the thought nauseates me), (a) I won't KNOW until I do the work and figure out why I ignored my conscience and did what I did, and (b) my wife doesn't believe it. She has not reason to trust me. I will just continue being transparent and over time just hope that she sees and that trust can be rebuilt bit by bit.

Regardless, my post above was about giving my BW what she needs to feel financially secure. She herself said this is a even starting to the infidelity aspect. So I want to take whatever steps it takes so she feels financially safe first...this is her desire.

BishyBish

MCW, let me ask you this: do you think you deserve forgiveness? And if so, why?

No, I don't think I deserve forgiveness. But I will do everything I can to earn it. I don't expect it, and if she does choose to forgive eventually, I know it will be a long road. And I certainly hope we can get there. She says she knows that for genuine reconciliation, she needs to forgive me, but that she doesn't want to forgive because she feels "pressure" to inorder to feel financially secure. She wants to forgive me by her own free choice becaus she wants to. Hence why she wants to get this "financial segmentation" done. She feels immense peace of mind just knowing it's an option. At least yesterday she did.

I sense a lot of sarcastic doubt in your message. My wife and I are talking very openly and constructively about all of this. And she feels that without sorting out the financial segregation, she can't feel safe enough to work together to heal from the infidelity. It's the way she wants it so I am supporting her, even if it means we need to execute an actual legal divorce to make it happen. It isn't a game and I'm not trying to get her to "play into my hands".

I'm sorry you don't believe that I won't betray her again. But that doesn't change what I and am not going to do. I'm committed to rebuilding with my wife and to being the man she deserves. The deceit and betrayal is over. I will still do the internal work and see my IC to get to the "why".

Also I'm at the Dublin airport and it's 5am and I've had less than two hours sleep so sorry if I'm snarky.

I sense a lot of sarcastic doubt in your message. My wife and I are talking very openly and constructively about all of this. And she feels that without sorting out the financial segregation, she can't feel safe enough to work together to heal from the infidelity. It's the way she wants it so I am supporting her, even if it means we need to execute an actual legal divorce to make it happen. It isn't a game and I'm not trying to get her to "play into my hands".

Sorry if I came off sarcastic. I don't think you're trying to get her to play into your hands with this "start fresh" thing; it's her idea after all. I think this "start fresh" maneuver does play into the hands of the part of you that is selfish, immature, and a fraud. You didn't initiate it, so it's not a nefarious plot of yours and I didn't mean to insinuate that it is; however it does enable that part of you that perpetrated these betrayals.

What you and many other WS have wanted is to go back in time and just undo the betrayal. Starting fresh is the nearest equivalent. The slate gets wiped clean, but the impetus for actually doing the work to figure out why you're capable of such disgusting betrayal becomes less important. You'll say now that it won't be less important, but that's just more hot air.

You won't cheat for a long time after this, until you learn the new parameters you have to work with to get that high of getting around the rules. But you will learn how, for sure.

[This message edited by Bishybish at 2:40 AM, August 24th (Thursday)]

Sitting with the pain means something like this -

You said you have kids - your kids have been introduced to the world of infidelity on a personal level because of what you did. When they were little babies and you had hopes and dreams for them - I'm sure it never included your daughters husband cheating on her. Statistically now that' because your her dad and you cheated, is a more likely reality for your daughter. She will pick someone to heal her injury of how her dad abandoned his family unless you fix that now with your daughter.

Sit with that - ithink about it - think about your daughter scrounging around for info about her husband because he's lying and sneaking around. Go in to details of that for your daughter. Her crying at night - on and on. Think about your grandkids now exposed to cheating and adultery because you introduced it. Not to be a total downer - but I'm sure it's not a scene you would have "picked" and yet here it is - what do you do now.

Same thing with your sons - they could become cheaters because you introduced it. They could have the dream wife - like you said you have - but those women will have different experiences than your wife and they may leave your son for cheating. He'll have pain he never would have otherwise known. These are stark realities we WHs must realize. I'm working now w my family and young son to heal the injuries I've inflicted. Otherwise the drama and pain continue.

Same thing with your wife - it's sometimes harder with a spouse than w kids. But she has thoughts, anxieties, worries now she never had before. You guys are still early - but she wonders at the grocery store when she's shopping now if this couple had an affair and can people really be happy. She wonders if the residue in her life will ever be wiped away and clear again. If she's like a lot of BSs (tho your wife sounds several notches higher functioning) she'll still question herself (tho she seems to have the blame squarely on you where it belongs to so good for her) but she'll question herself - why didn't I see this behavior in you, why did she allow this or that or do why that or this or how that. All questions that could have been avoided had you not brought the series of infidelity to your family.

That's what sit with the pain means.

It also means you have anxiety or insecurity of low self esteem - none of that is the end of the world. In fact - newsflash - everyone has it from time to time and to varying degrees - what are your actions as a result of that?

Yours are (or were) to go out and make yourself feel good outside your marriage - not to give to your kids a little extra love so you'd get it back

or to invest In you wife by reaching out to get, but to think about yourself and screw around with other women. It's that black and white too - it really is.

Yuck - right?

Sit with that - think about it - fill in details w your life. Because only when you sit with it and move on from the yuck can you start to realize it doesn't consume you and you have options for your behavior which do not have to include ruining other people with adultery.

You sound smart - your wife does too - you'll figure it out. I have thoughts about her wanting a divorce but I have to post later.

Gonnabegr8,

Thank you. Your advice is helpful and insightful.

Thus far, we have managed to keep the infidelity from the kids. Although our 11yo was the one who caught me texting OW, we contained it. We both fully agree that keeping the kids insulated from this is critical. I know some people on SI disagree with that choice, but it is our choice....really it is my BW's choice, and I support it.

Regardless, your ideas about seeing it thru my kids' eyes and experiences and even considering what if they DID know, and all of your suggestions are really helpful advice and I will consider them all for sure.

[This message edited by mcw922 at 5:55 PM, August 24th (Thursday)]

I skipped the last few responses so if this is redundant, sorry.

YES you need to deal with the monster under your bed, the thing that makes you HAVE to have what you HAVE to have at any cost, that little voice that tells you you are never enough.

Embrace it, sit with it, feel it.

It won't kill you, but you've certainly behaved as though it might.

That is what is driving everything you do and why your current behavior feels like an act - they are hollow because you are still running from yourself.

We can not know what "that" is - but you DO. I guarantee you do. You don't have to post it here, but at least be honest with yourself and stop lying about it.

I am quite new to this forum and have only been a member for a few days, however I have followed this site for some time now. I too am a wayward husband. Betrayed Spouse's D-Day way over 15 months ago. I had a 6 and ½ year affair that ended about 4 months before the OW decided to inform my wife of my infidelity in a very vindictive way (I will post more of my story later). My wife and I have been working every day to repair and reconcile our marriage, and so far, we are still together and have come a long way since D-Day, but I still have much more to do. My BS is a member and has posted on several topics and I feel this forum is one reason we are still together.

MCW, there have been many insightful posts concerning your steps and miss-steps along the path so far. There are many similarities to our stories, but I think truly most affairs follow the same story line, we are not unique. My BS even swears there must be a manual for wayward spouses. Recovery is a long and arduous path and I am not even near the end after 15 months. I have had to learn what it is to carry the pain that my wife bears, ways to lift the load even for a short while. In reading your post I hear you are looking for script. Say this, push this button, rub here and it will all go away. You are still making this about you. I know to you it seems you are doing “good”.

First quit judging what is good or better, it is not up to you it is up to your BS. I know you have buyer’s remorse, but you bought this with your choices. The currency was your wife’s love and trust, her self-worth, her sanity and much more, not a few dollars out of the bank account. The outcome will be up to your Betrayed Spouse and not up to you. You do not have to sell what you are doing to prove your feelings or try to convince yourself “I did all I could but it failed anyway”.

I challenge you to try an exercise. Write a simple narrative of what it would be like to be your BS sitting in a chair forced to watch you and your AP as you were seeing it through her eyes. Don’t describe what you are seeing describe what she is feeling as she watches you. You do not have to share your thoughts with your BS or with anyone else. I found this to be a starting point for me to begin to “sit” in the pain. I would also recommend an article “What is the Cost of Forgiveness” by Rick Reynolds. There is no fresh start; her pain will be there, learn to not only accept it but to carry it with you always. There are no short cuts. You have to decide how much you love your wife, can you accept that there will never be a day that it was like it was before.

mcw922,

I have read through this thread and am going to throw in my TCW.

I am a BS whose WS have a multiyear affair. He like you found his AP on the internet. The PA was preceded with an online affair and other "acting out" behaviors over the years.

Now for my TCW. You and your BS are no where near clarity. Speaking from experience she has not even begun to address the layers and layers of hell she has found herself in. You took all control from her life. She is trying to find that control. I know I did. But there is going to come a point when she no longer can or wants to hold it in. She should not. This kind of PTSD can ruin her health. It is OK to let you have it right between the eyes no matter how SORRY you are. She is and should be in the driver seat. If you truly love her as you say, get in the back seat and ride. It may be a 1 year ride, 3 years or longer - OR - she may stop the car and throw you out. It is no longer up to you.

You do not get it yet. I am sure you hurt and are completely sick and disgusted with what you did. But I will let you in on a poorly kept secret, it is still about you. You are holding up everything you are doing like you are trying to win the FWS award. You have won an award that you will never for the rest of your life deserve.- your kind, loving wife you you treated like dirt under your feet has not kicked you out.

Now the glimmer of light at the end of the tunnel. If you learn to lay down any and all needs, requests or hope of ever feeling better - If you stand and take from her the arrows she is pulling from her heart (the ones you put there) that she needs to fling at you - If you learn to listen to her heart not just her words, then there may be the very slim chance that you may find you way to becoming a decent human being. Trust me, you are still very far away. And maybe, just maybe, if she sees a glimpse of that person in you she may stay one more day and -then another.

You life needs to be devoted to helping her heal whether she wants to stay with you or not. You used up it ever being about you.

Take this to heart. Never say just I am sorry. Say I am sorry for [blank]. NEVER tell her you are sorry she thinks or feels a certain way. Not your business what she thinks. Ask her to forgive you for each and every action, i.e., I hope that one day I will have become a man that you can forgive for doing [blank] to you. Make "blank" as specific as possible. Tell her how you imagine she feels when she thinks of you doing [blank] and encourage her to correct you if you get it wrong and "you will."

If there is truly a good man deep inside of you that is capable of loving your wife as she deserves and deserved to be loved, there will come a day when you look back and understand not only that at this point in your journey you did not get it, but why you did not get it.

I know all of this is hard but I also know it is possible because this is the path that my FWH and I have been going through. In the last few months he has reached a point where he opened the window to the dark place he had reached and the person he had become and took and unveiled look. That was our corner. The pretense and self-protection was gone. He laid his inner self bare and took an enormousness step away from that other man. At that point he truly seemed to begin to understand some of the whys and embrace the wreckage he has caused in my life, our life and his own. It was at that point I saw my own tiny light in the distance.

You can get there, but it will cost you more than you may have ever had to give. But remember by giving up, you could gain more that you think possible.

BishyBish,

Thank you for continuing to be constructive and for your perspective and for challenging me.

The slate gets wiped clean, but the impetus for actually doing the work to figure out why you're capable of such disgusting betrayal becomes less important. You'll say now that it won't be less important, but that's just more hot air.

The impetus for actually doIng the work is that we both want to have a happy marriage for the long term, and I want to be the man where that is possible. Right now I'm not, so I need to change. Transform even. And I don't even quite know what "the work" is or how to transform, but I know I am committed to that outcome and so is my BW. I know I care and I am trying.

You may regard that as an empty promise or "hot air"', and that's fine. You don't really know me. No offense.

Others will say "let go of controlling the outcome". I don't believe I am trying to control the outcome. My wife and I have talked extensively, and reconciliation and a happy long term marriage is what we both want. Whether we succeed of course remains to be seen. But as she herself said: commitment to an outcome does not equal controlling the outcome.

In any case, thank you for the time you take to post your thoughtful and thought-provoking comments. I really do appreciate them.

(Edited a couple of times to correct annoying typos)

[This message edited by mcw922 at 5:35 AM, August 28th (Monday)]

But as she herself said: commitment to an outcome does not equal controlling the outcome.

Most resources agree that if reconciling couples wait until they're sure they want R, they're waiting too long to start the reconciliation process. Bottom line is that there's a great deal of ambivalence. So, whoever is feeling that ambivalence is encouraged to put it on the table, sure. But if R is the goal, you still work toward R.