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well, at least what I'm concerned about is she has an excuse for everything. It appears like she's not owning it. She clings hard to the idea that she didn't intend to have sex with the OM at her home, as if that matters. She did it.

she did all these things and yet clings to the idea that in her head she didn't love the OM. I guess that's something. But really, is it? She did everything. She needs to stop throwing up things that she thinks are mitigating circumstances. They aren't. They don't lesson what she's done, so she might as well stop it. Because throwing these things up as mitigating circumstances in "her" mind lesson the sin. It gives her a degree of well, I didn't really mean it. See?

Luxjel - a wise poster that sometimes posts here once said that the WW's job isn't to save the marriage, it's her job to save herself. Truly figure out why she did the things she did so that she's a better person, a better partner for someone. It's the BH's job to save the marriage. if he wants to. I think it's true. You know everything you need to know. You're a smart guy. You know she wants to save the marriage. You know she wants you. Is she remorseful yet? I don't think so. She might get there. I know she wants to get there. But these habits of hers, to throw up mitigating circumstances, saving face, these are life-long habits. They won't be changed for a while. And, more importantly, does it matter? You need to figure out what you want. You've been with her for many years. Do those years make a difference? You can't go back in time. Don't get engaged in magical thinking like so many do. Your marriage isn't going to be "better than ever!" That's bullshit. You can eventually get over this. She can become a better, safer partner. But you will never forget this betrayal. What matters is, does it matter to you? Do you still want her, assuming she can become remorseful? It's up to you friend. You've got to figure out what you want. Her feelings don't matter in this.

take your time if you need it. If you don't, don't. For now, you can simply decide that you're not ready to decide. But don't park there forever. Sometime in the future, you'll need to decide if you want to work towards R, or simply divorce. It's your wife, your life.

Good luck friend.

eta - xhz700 sees exactly what I'm seeing. She's hung up on "I did bad things, for awhile. I'm not a bad person. I'm really a good person. A good wife. I just lost my footing for awhile."

[This message edited by mike7 at 10:16 AM, August 9th (Wednesday)]

Sassylee, I don't disagree with your point on the type of love.

The problem is her denial of obvious truth. She is lying to herself. Whether it is overt lying, plain denial or deep rooted toxic shame, her introspection is only skin deep.

Until that changes, reconciliation with her is a mistake.

Co-addiction: Not saying you're a user yourself. But you are - even now - managing her. Part of the sickness. Go find the post where you speak about getting her to tell you if she feels like she's slipping and if this is all too much. You're not her sponsor. You're not her counselor. That's you managing a situation that's not yours to manage. Her condition is controlling you.

Stop using second hand.

Forged1, I've read your post several times and keep trying to think of how to respond. And I... can't. I think you have me pegged.

btw, reading everyone else's comments in this thread from last night / this morning, I'm realizing that I'm going to have a lot to talk about it my first-ever IC session on Friday. Hoo boy. I'm starting to think I should have booked a lot more time than an hour.

Forged does have it pegged. Further some things you have shared have me wondering about her mental health through all this. She ever been diagnosed ? Addictions and mental illness are very commonly found in the same person.

Your are being very co-dependent here. You have things to work through, she has things to work through. They are different things and both of you can't be in that process. You both need to make room to work on healing yourselves.

Anything your W does is on her. Including her choice to have an A. You are not to blame for any of it. Her actions, like your are always hers to own. She does not need "saving." Further you can't control her. I think the check ins are giving her her false hope and keeping her from hitting rock bottom.

Co-dependency is definitely something you need to be mindful of.

I am recovered KISA/CODA myself. My M was defined by me rescuing my "damsel in distress," Pre-A. I can't begin to tell you how that alone created a horrible M neither of us was happy in. I see so many parallels here.

Quite frankly she is calling the shots and still making decisions for you. I really think if you get some time truly away from her (no more MC and daily check ins) you be surprised at how much better you feel and how much clearer things become.

She is injecting herself in your life because she does not want you to reach the logical conclusion. she is afraid to admit that to herself and hopes that working it out with you somehow erases the past. Your M, as you knew it, is over. It is like dating a girlfriend with a past. A new M can built if you want to, but you both have a lot of growth to do.

My friend IC will be so good for you. One word the IC is they are good will pick up on the CODA thing easily. At least on here you seem to phrase everything through your W and define yourself through your M to her. I said it before. This is about you. You don't need any more input on something that is decision for you to make. You have the answer you just need the time and self reflection to do it.

You need a "break" from this. Take a real break from your W and don't talk everyday for awhile. Just try it. Use the time in IC well. IC is about you not her.

Man, you have gotten some really great insight in these previous posts.

Let me remind you that you already did make the choice to D. You are just wondering if it is the right choice, correct? You already knew for yourself that cheating is a deal breaker and you have very good reasons behind this. Your WW is trying to get you to change your mind, go back on your vow to yourself. She knew this was a deal breaker and did it anyway. At some point she calculated the risks of losing you if you found out. I think she was hedging that the marriage vows would override the deal breaker.

I don't think your WW wanted to leave you but I do think she wanted both you and AP and live in two compartmentalized relationships for as long as possible. Like a lot of members are saying, her actions were showing a deeper connection with the AP than she is trying to minimize.

I'm not surprised the AP had already been cheating when meeting your WW. As we often point out here that waywards generally "affair down" and the AP is usually just the candidate who is lesser in many ways than the betrayed spouse and was already a willing participant. I think part of your WW's denial is having to face the fact that she really flushed the M down the toilet for such turd of a player whose only gain was the sex. Most cheating APs like your WW hooked on to have a bucket list of sex acts they want checked off before the affair flames out. These acts usually are traded for the continued ego kibbles and validation from the AP.

Something for you to ponder and maybe also take to your next IC appointment. What if instead of your WW asking you to wait 90 days she told you the following:

The affair is all on me. I wanted it. I fully own it. I realize the damage it has done to you, me,and the marriage. You deserved none of the pain I have brought upon you. I was fully aware that cheating is a deal breaker when I engaged in the affair. Although I cannot specifically explain why I chose to have an affair I will be attending IC to fix my broken and figure out my why. I know that it is not fair for me to ask you to stay in this marriage with me. I fully understand and will not stand in your way if you choose divorce. If divorce is necessary for your healing I will do what I can to make it the least contentious as possible. At the very least I only ask for the opportunity to help you heal in anyway that I can for what have done to you. You owe me nothing in return.

How would you have felt instead? You don't have to answer here but but consider discussing it with in your IC if it evokes a different reaction with you.

She's still in CYA mode. She's all about damage control.

Look, as a woman, if I invite a man into my house, a man I've been sleeping with for months, a man that I've professed deep love for, and had expressed a desire to run away with, and just do every day normal couple things with, then of course I know we will have sex. That she has told you otherwise is flat out bullshit.

And,then, there's always the truth that she could've said no. She could have told him she didn't want to have sex. She could've given him any number of excuses. But she didn't.

She is acting as if it just happened. As a woman, I am telling you that's not true. I promise, she had showered,shaved, and was dressed sexy, including lingerie, or sexy panties.

That she is trying to say the things she wrote in the letters aren't true, or at least how she felt at the time, is also a lie. Again, as a woman, any letters I have saved I did so because they're were important to me.

I think she is regretful. I think she's sorry. But,right now, I think she's more sorry that she got caught.

I wouldn't bother to go any further with this until she's taken a polygraph. They're a lot more reliable than a still lying,freshly caught cheating spouse.

And no one has been mean, or attacked her. Hard questions, yes. Being called out on her obvious lies, yes. I think realizing the members here see through the bullshit has freaked her out. We can get offer a clearer perspective, because we don't have love clouding our vision.

[This message edited by HellFire at 2:04 PM, August 9th (Wednesday)]

You have been trying to save your WW from her addiction(s) for however long it's been. That speaks to something inside yourself. You are getting something from that, and it keeps you chained to her. It is making you sick.

Quit trying to analyze her. Quit trying to manage her. Quit trying to fix her. Quit trying to shield her from the consequences of her actions.

This woman has no respect for you whatsoever.

None.

She has demonstrated that rather conclusively. All this noise that she's making now is just another variation on an addict telling the person who just found their rig that they can change, get better, that they want to do right....

And all of your analysis, all of your scheduled calls etc is just so much co-dependent quacking on your part.

You're sitting there looking at those letters, and thinking about polygraphs, and asking for timelines, and details, and comparing this to that and who did what to whom and said this to the other and it is a complete waste of your fucking time.

You will not get one second of the portion of your life that you spend on this back.

Not one.

This is what she has chosen. The needle. The bottle. The strange dick. Whatever. It'll be something else next. Because until she actually fixes whatever is broken inside of herself, she'll never be "clean". She'll never be "sober". She'll be dopesick every day.

Love yourself, dude. I know you don't. Like, I KNOW that you don't. You curl up into a ball at the thought of actually leaving and putting yourself first. At getting out of this travesty of a relationship where you are cutting yourself to ribbons on the shards of her brokenness every day.

Choose yourself. Choose to live. For yourself. By yourself.

Now. Take the fucking gloves off.

If I can add to M1965's post about obsessing about finding out every little detail for proof, when you have all you ever need; I realized that it wasn't about proof, I thought it was about wanting to know to whole story to find out where i was starting from if I was going to rebuild, but looking back on it now it was me still trying to find a "why".

There is no point in looking for a "why" this happened because even if you knew the real reason, it simply isn't a rational. The mental process she went through to get to where she is, isn't something normal people can follow. It's fantasyland.

So don't beat yourself up over things that don't make sense. They never will.

I think after your IC you should take a week off from talking to her and a week off from talking to us. Go out running, go out with friends, call someone you haven't talked to in years, do ANYTHING to get your mind off for things.

You need time to process my man.

24 hours without a post. If I'm reading the tea leaves you just suffered another setback. Strength and courage to you. Good luck with IC.

I remember my first IC session. It was over in a blink. I did 2 a week for a couple weeks until my brain had flushed most of the toxins. Then went to 1 per week until I was "cured"

He did say that he'd stop posting if the pile on over in wayward didn't stop. I hope that's not the case but maybe he wasn't free to post his thoughts because people were taking his words here and cornering his WW there.

Nothing good ever comes out of this kind of approach when both spouses join so soon after dday. They both promised to stay out of each other's posts and respect their privacy but then members are taking info from this thread and tossing it at her in wayward. She doesn't need to read this thread - she's hearing it all second hand.

Waywards never get it right away. Never. Yet she was way ahead of most...she joined SI. She asked for help. She directed her husband here so he'd have a support system. That puts her miles ahead of most wayward spouses.

Hey gang. Appreciate the concern. However, my explanation for the lack of posting is mostly boring: The events of the last month has made me very behind-schedule with deadlines at work, and so I've been staying up til 2, 3 am every night catching up. On the plus side, the nonstop work is giving me a distraction from the dumpster fire that is my personal life, so there's that.

Sorry Jello - didn't want to speak for you - just wanted to offer a possible explaination for your absence. Glad you're still posting.

sassylee

Waywards never get it right away. Never. Yet she was way ahead of most...she joined SI. She asked for help. She directed her husband here so he'd have a support system. That puts her miles ahead of most wayward spouses.

I agree with sassylee's point. She may have done many hurtful things and may not yet truly understand or accept the degree of her betrayal but in my view she should be given credit for the effort she is making. She needs to be supported and guided in that effort by SI and not constantly vilified for her failings. She is well ahead of most wayward spouses in my opinion but needs the positive guidance of SI to find the right track. This will help both her and the BS to deal with their marriage issues in a more constructive manner. Surely that is the purpose of this Forum.

Hey gang. Figured I should pop in here with an update. Honestly I'm surprised that a few people noticed that I hadn't posted in a few days and were worried about me. That genuinely struck a chord and I appreciate the thought. It's been pretty lonely lately, so it's nice to know that at least some Internet strangers are thinking about me and sending good vibes.

Anyhoozle, I started IC this week. No idea what if anything will come of that, but will be going on a weekly basis for the foreseeable future. I like it a lot better than the MC that my WW was dragging me to. In the MC sessions, it seemed like the therapist was biased toward trying to convince me to take her back... like it would have been a personal "victory" if we stayed together. I didn't like that, and so I told the WW that I wouldn't be continuing with it.

WW and I have been living separately for the past 4 weeks or so. It's been good for me and I can focus better when she's not around (I work from home, which as you can imagine is full of triggering distractions and reminders of our life). Unfortunately, WW can't crash at her friend's place forever, so she will be moving back home this weekend. I think I'm just going to try to find other places to be when she's around. Or maybe I'll just tell her to go upstairs. I'unno.

When she moved out temporarily, I told WW to use this time apart to really work on herself. She's taken that advice to heart and has been going to her own IC. Whenever I speak to her on the phone, she talks about how valuable these sessions have been, how much better she now understands herself, and how she's really beginning to cope with accepting her actions. And it just makes me feel.... resentful. I kind of don't want her feeling better, you know? I want her to be in as much agony as I am! Eh, maybe I'm just being petty with that.

Anyway, thanks again for the advice and thoughts. I have read everybody's posts at least three times now, and it helps to know there are people out there who have my back.

I almost never say this but you need to drop this 90 day charade and file. You're about to get a ton of manipulation and your emotions are going to kick you in the ass.

I've been on forums such as these for quite some times and very rarely has one of these situations raised my alerts so high. There is just something here that smells really bad. I am very worried for you and will be rooting for you this weekend. Good luck.

Have you spoken with OBS recently?

Also, you truly need to disengage. You are no longer her gatekeeper. You have enough facts to make your decision at this point

Keeping engaged with untangling her affair with thermostat boy is really just pain shopping at this point. Her soon-to-be proximity will make this very very difficult.

I am a pro R guy when you are BOTH committed AND kids are involved. In this case, you (rightfully so) are not committed and you have very little invested (3 years, no kids). It's certainly your decision, but her actions and so soon into the M are screaming for you to run like hell. Good luck to you. I will follow your thread. So sorry, like all of us, we have shitty ass spouses that do this to us and the family. ZERO character in these cheaters and many do not ever find it.