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H and I are 5 months out from d-day. Emotions are still running raw and high, lots of roller coaster feelings on both sides. H wants to see atonement, I’m struggling to find meaningful ways of showing him true remorse and regret and genuine feelings. H is in a tremendous amount of pain, and I am in IC to figure out the why.

I’m trying to be empathetic but failing. I’m trying to create intimacy and open communication but we both end up shutting down. I know this is a long process and I’m ready to be there for all of the pain, suffering and hopefully someday, R. I know that’s a long way off.

I thought we had a breakthrough last week when H told me he accepted my apology and I had “moved the needle” towards R, instead of D. But now, we are struggling with intimacy because of my past selfish sexual issues now coming to light. I realize how shallow I have been, how selfish I was sexually for our entire relationship and how easy it was to open up to the AP about sexuality and fantasy, considering that’s how I got off. H and I had HB in the beginning, that has slowed down, and in the last couple of days, has stopped. He rightly sees my true feelings and can only react by being devastated and disrespected.

This is hell for him, and I want to listen to his pain, respond with empathy and honesty, but I end up causing more pain with the truth. I am still shallow, cowardly and wayward in my thinking. My intent and feelings about my husband are out of love but he says he thinks I’m confused about what I really want. I know I want to be home with him and our children. I know what I did was wrong, I know I need to atone for what I’ve done, I know I love him, despite my actions previously. I’ve hurt him, ruined our marriage, damaged our kids and put a huge cloud of pain and suffering over our future, if we even have a future. That’s a very big IF. H knows we’ve got a long way to go and he primarily home for the kids. I attempted to micromanage, gaslight and deny so much in the beginning after d-day that trust and faith are a long way off as well.

My IC says that H needs to come to an acceptance of me for us to move forward. I know H can not reconcile the woman I was and am and the terrible decisions and choices I made that destroyed us. I know I couldn’t either, if I was in his position. I thrust him into a terrible place and am forcing him to live with a liar and cheater. I chose another man over him and consciously worked to keep that relationship a secret and not caring about consequences for H or for kids.

H has been so patient with me, and guiding me, basically being my therapist. I don’t deserve him or the chances he’s given me. But I hope he chooses us in the end.

Any advice about atonement and empathy is appreciated. I know I need to keep posting here.

The only advice I can give is to do anything to let him heal. If he needs time alone, then give it, if he needs you to apologize a million times then you apologize even more.

I can't really empathize with you because my WW did the same thing to me. Yeah she's sorry now, but she was callous and cruel for the 4 years she was having an A and rejected me physically and emotionally so she could hide from her guilt. Makes me just sick still but I'm only 11 months since DD.

Just give him lots of time and patience. Make sure he's eating and exercising.

The road you're traveling down is winding and full of potholes. You must be willing to give your husband everything you gave AP and more. You need to make him #1 in your world again and he needs to be able to believe it. Right now he thinks he's plan B, your backup plan and safety net. You must now prove yourself daily through your actions because at this point your words are worthless.

[This message edited by skins21 at 7:02 AM, December 19th (Tuesday)]

My IC says that H needs to come to an acceptance of me for us to move forward.

You are 5 months from DDay and your IC is telling you the above?

It takes YEARS to get to acceptance. He is still in the devastation stage.

How is your IC helping you to understand why you don’t have empathy?

He will never forget this as long as he has a memory.

He thinks about it all the time right now.

There is no escape except time.

In the future, he will think about this betrayal less, but you protected the OM by naming someone else as the AP. It will take a long time to see if you are protecting your family ahead of the OM.

He has clear proof that he is your backup plan.

Your IC is way off. It will take many years to get over the lies and cheating. His self esteem is in the ditch. You chose someone else over him not just with the cheating, but with the continued lies.

You felt something for the OM. At least you were upset with his WW for cheating on him.

So you went to help him out, and did the same to your H.

Glad you are working hard, but if he did this to you, would you file for D?

BH here, first off, so sorry for both of you, and yes, 5 months is still really early.

The thread linked below is about the same issue, sexually selfish behavior in and out of the A (sharing things with the AP you haven't with your H/W). It's a good primer into what goes through a BH's mind; and, the simple answer, if you're not already doing it, is your H should get everything the AP got and more. Sleep with the AP 2 times a day? Sleep with him 3. Do some crazy sexual act with the AP you denied your husband? Do that with your H, and then push the needle further. The sexual aspect of an A, especially when there's acts that have been denied the BS throughout the marriage, is very difficult to recover from, you should focus on this as a way to help him heal, because, for me and I think a lot of other people, it's critical. Don't explain "why" your sexual issues hung you up in the past with your H, show him those issues aren't a problem anymore (as they weren't with the AP). The sooner you show him this side of yourself, the sooner he will start to heal; make what you and the AP did "PG" in comparison to what you do with your H, and, I can almost promise you, you'll see a change.

http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=615014

And yes, it's WAY too early for acceptance and your IC is trying to help you rugsweep. Either tell them that to their face (he shouldn't accept this yet) or find a new IC. Because 5 months is the blink of an eye in infidelity recovery.

Finally, tell him the truth. I suspect, 5 months out, there's still trickle truth, gaslighting, and denying going on. Tell him whatever he wants to know, write it down if you have to (rather than tell him in person) and for sexual details, make sure he really wants to know the answer if you think it will hurt him (was he better in bed, was he bigger, etc). If he doesn't ask, don't volunteer those kinds of details, but tell him the truth, and, if he wants to know those details and has answered "yes" to "do you really want to know" tell him the truth there too.

[This message edited by Rideitout at 7:40 AM, December 19th (Tuesday)]

BADmom-

You may wish to elaborate here a little bit.. you say the current issue is with intimacy due to sexual selfishness and issues in the past, and it was easy for you to open up to AP in this regard. I started another thread here titled “to all the way wards hoping to Reconcile” -it make give you some insight into the matter.

Bottom line is it’s hard enough for your emasculated H to try and R with you. But if he feels second best, like your sexually withholding from him in intimacy that you easily gave AP, whether it be desire, enthusiasm or sexual acts themselves, he will struggle immensely with continuing to R. It’s a BS , and particularly, BH mindset. Of course I understand you have underlying issues but I can promise you he won’t see it any other way than “ she was more than happy to do X Y and Z with him, but I’m not even worth X to her... of course she doesn’t want me as much as him” which then become “well fuck it, there are women who want to do X, Y and Z with me, so why am I torturing myself with her? She doesn’t love me like she’s should”

You will need to work on you’re issues, and I hope you come to peace with yourself. But know that timeline for your H is short. You need to come to understand that shame ought to come from who you engage acts of intimacy with, not the actual acts. Your H deserves to be treated like number one, no ifs ands or buts about it, if you truly love him and want to R. If you can’t get to that point, he won’t be staying around long, and if he does, he will be very tempted to validate his male ego with other women who do want to treat him well.

I don’t say this to knock you, but you really need to understand the BH mindset to know what you are up against. Your H needs to know that he Is your alpha over the AP. It’s the only way he will move on with you, and similtaneously, the only way he will move from searing thoughts of destruction towards the AP to relative indifference. I honestly hate using the alpha generalization, but in a biolical context, it’s so common and true for most males. He wants to be your emotional and sexual leader, the one who attains the deepest intimacy connection from you, not some loser AP. To him the AP is competitions wants to kill off, figuratively, and quite honestly, literally as well..

Please read the thread here I mentioned for some insight. If you cannot get yourself to a place where making your H number 1 is organic or desirable to you, then so be it. But I’m that instance don’t expect him to want to remain married or committed to you, When in husband mind better options exist, because frankly they do in that case.

I hope you can understand the context of my post, and see a little bit into how your BH feels right now. There is no greater blow to a mans pride, manhood and ego than his wife cuckolding him, and then to pile on top of it, inability to demonstrate and crave intimacy levels that were so easily available to the AP. He simply feels like a chump in that regard.

Edit:

After reading your other post, and assuming what you say is true, no PA stuff besides making out and snuggling in underwear (of course objectively as a stranger on the internet I cannot affirm or deny the truth of your statements, hope our H has had you do a poly for peace of mind), if the PA was limited to making out, nothing sexual like HJs, BJs, sex of any kind or release, and was primarily an EA, there is a much better chance your M can survive if you do this right. It’s a blessing for you fin this is the truth. For men, sexual betrayal is very often the lethal death blow, but an EA can be forgiven a lot easier. Lots of anecdotal thoughts on why this is the case, but I won’t elaborate here.. very often the emotional aspect is harder for BW To accept, whereas the physical aspect is harder for BH to accept. Not the rule, just speaking generally.

So put the effort in, do the work, and I think your M has a much better shot of surviving than many others I have seen here who have done heinous things sexually with an AP.

Just my 2 cents

Wishing your BH and you well.

[This message edited by nicenomore at 7:57 AM, December 19th (Tuesday)]

After reading your other post, and assuming what you say is true, no PA stuff besides making out and snuggling in underwear (of course objectively as a stranger on the internet I cannot affirm or deny the truth of your statements, hope our H has had you do a poly for peace of mind), if the PA was limited to making out, nothing sexual like HJs, BJs, sex of any kind or release, and was primarily an EA, there is a much better chance your M can survive if you do this right.

I also went and read your story, and I completely agree, to a lot of men, myself included, an EA is a "bump in the road", we'll shrug it off and move on. It's the PA that's the killer for men, especially when, as you indicated, there are sexual issues in the marriage.

Here's my suggestion. If you really had no sexual contact with the AP, I'd book a poly for yourself when the best one you can find in a 100 mile radius. Like, today. Because, I can almost promise you, if what you've said is true, and there was no sexual contact, you're husband is going to change his tune very quickly. But getting him to believe that is going to take extraordinary measures (like a poly), because, I, and everyone else who's been through this is going to tell him the same thing; "If they were together and alone, there was sex". Are there some A's with physical proximity and no sexual contact? Yes, I'm sure there are, you indicate you're one of them, but they are exceedingly rare, so rare as to be not worthy of consideration; almost all EA's are EA's because of physical issues (proximity, time to be alone, etc).

Your A would be extremely atypical, and, your husband knows that, which is why he doesn't believe you. Most A's go directly from "Your pretty" to anal sex with cameras in a furry costume while wearing a ball gag (joking). It's just the way it works, most men aren't going to put their marriage on the line to have a someone to cuddle with, or to have someone tell them they are handsome, I, and many men, don't need that stuff. They put their marriage on the line to have sex, kinky sex they can't have with their wives, more sex than they get at home, or just sex with a different person. Your husband knows this because he's a member here, and I'm sure you've read it enough times to realize that you've got a huge uphill climb to make him believe "no sexual contact at all".

My suggestion? Book the poly this morning and get it done today. Your and his healing will dramatically accelerate when your husband believes you. Have him write up the questions and go get it done.

Edited to add:

The last encounter AP's wife was out of town, kids too, so I went over to AP's house, fully intending to have sex, but we didn't, ending up making out, just underwear on, talking about us. Of course, any rational adult with a brain would say that's impossible, of course you had sex, you're lying. AP was impotent, didn't have a condom, and was afraid of STDs. AP only got BJs from his wife and apparently had conditioned himself so much as to not get aroused without a lot of stimulation. An unbelievable truth, but still the truth, H doesnt believe that at all.

Neither would I. Here are the questions I would ask. If he enjoyed BJs so much, why didn't you give him one? Why not have him give you oral sex if there wasn't a condom to be found. Or a hand job? And you were in your underwear, but not kissing him, stroking his penis, his hands down your underwear? Also, BJs are "less stimulating" than sex, not more. There's absolutely no way I'd believe this without a poly; I'm not saying your lying, but I am saying your husband is being reasonable; this story would send up a million bright red flags at the same time in my mind, and I suspect your husband feels the same way.

[This message edited by Rideitout at 8:29 AM, December 19th (Tuesday)]

BW here also 5 months out. All I can offer is my generic perspective as a betrayed.

I'm not qualified nor been around long enough to do anything else. I haven't read your backstory and as I am on the Wayward Side [only trying to gain insight].

Since you asked...

It is encouraging when I feel the remorse, and see the effort my BS is putting in. It gives me hope when he acknowledges my grief and sorrow. It is helpful when he learns my triggers and helps keep them from happening or hugs me when I cry through them. When he hugs me at night when he thinks I am sleeping and whispers "I'm so sorry" I feel the ice I've steeled around my heart melt just a tiny bit.

BUT - will this last? Will he throw in the towel if I'm not "over it" fast enough"? Is there still TT? Is there more and he's just being so supportive in hopes of hiding it? If this is all I do know - what am I missing (because I sure as Hell missed a lot during the A)? Can I believe anything he says (look where that got me)? Am I being gas lighted? When will the other shoe drop?

So, BadMom9, as a betrayed, the only thing I can offer to you is that if he's still with you, and he's still trying, and he's still working on, there is hope. Hold on to that hope. Keep giving him reason to hope. That hope is what keeps me trying.

nicenomore: Thank you for your reply. I think H feels emasculated for a number of reasons not just because of the A. “I think your M has a much better shot of surviving than many others I have seen here”. I hope and pray you are right.

I feel sometimes I’m understanding his mindset but many times, don’t understand how to reach him through anger, pain or sadness. I know he’s betrayed and feels forgotten and lost, I know he continues to hurt no matter what I do.

I do know this takes time and healing to recover from, good and bad days, and patience and perseverance. I know I need to keep telling him that I love him and care for him and apologize for all the lies and betrayal I committed. No rationalizations or excuses will ever make it right, and it will forever be a part of our past, a painful and possibly marriage ending chapter in our lives.

Chaos: “the only thing I can offer to you is that if he's still with you, and he's still trying, and he's still working on, there is hope. Hold on to that hope. Keep giving him reason to hope. That hope is what keeps me trying.”

Thank you for your reply and yes, the fact that he’s still here and talking to me and wanting to be there for our kids is the hope that keeps me going.

Do the poly. Prove to him there was no PA. If what you are saying is true there is no reason not to.

Do the poly. Prove to him there was no PA. If what you are saying is true there is no reason not to.

And a million reasons to. Honestly, your situation is so much better than most, if I could "fix" my W's A by having her do a poly and finding out there was no PA (there was, but hypothetically), I'd consider myself the luckiest guy on SI.

I said it before, you want to fix it, this has the best possible chance of fixing it, and fixing it fast. Yes, he'll still be hurting, but, on a scale of 1-10, he's probably around a 9 right now (imagining the PA), as soon as he believes (which I would NEVER believe without a poly) it was an EA only, I'd be shocked if that doesn't fall to a 3. Might fall to a 0, because, at least for me, an EA would be "brushed off", it's a fantasy, only a little different than reading a steamy novel, at least that's how I'd view it.

If there was a PA, admit it and don't do the poly. It will hurt so much more for you to fail a poly than to actually hear it from you.

Let me just say that unless you have experienced the pain of being cheated on, you will never comprehend the level of anxiety, hurt, numbness, or mental fog and insecurity that your husband is currently going through.

I am 3 months in and I have somewhat come to terms with what my husband has done, but I have not nor do I think I will ever be able to forget what he has done.

As some have suggested, you need to make your husband feel as equally, if not more, important than your other relationship. Realize that your relationship with your husband has been tarnished to an extent and that he is questioning your every action, move, words, etc... it’s a painful and a nightmare to say the least.

Rideitout: I think that the EA is just as damaging as a PA, and my H has confirmed that the intent of what I wanted to do (whether it happened or not) during the A is truly devastating. I threw him away while sexting and flirting and making out with AP. I had every intention of going through with sex and the only reason we didn’t was AP’s impotence. And later that night was d-day. So yes, while some men might be more ready to move on after a “simple” EA vs PA, this, I believe, is just as devastating and painful as the EA. I continually lied and deceived H and continued to ruin 2 families to satisfy my own desire and live in a fantasy of my own creation.

We had a good discussion a couple nights ago, I’m trying hard to be authentic and honest no matter what. I’ve lied to myself for many years, played the martyr for most of my life. I’ve told the ugly details of the affair but what is still trickling out, are my feelings and emotions during the A. Being honest with myself even if it causes pain, I revert so easily into protective mode if H asks anything probing about the A. Especially regarding my feelings about him before and during the A. For obvious reasons, he doesn’t trust me and can’t believe that I am truly committed to reconcile and love him. I continually pray for strength and fortitude to be a safe partner, and to be honest and authentic, and a woman that my H wants to be with, trust and love for a lifetime. I know I don’t deserve a chance after what I’ve done, he’s been so patient and kind, because that’s the kind of man he is. Even in the face of humiliation and emasculation, he rises above and protects his kids and himself from pain and suffering.

For the 5 months since D-day, I have struggled with atonement, authenticity and honesty. H feels that I haven’t tried. I hope to start true atonement today and everyday and 2018 with a fresh start to ensure H and my family have peace, stability and growth. Proving myself worthy of my H daily is my goal. Putting him and his needs first is my priority.

Proving myself worthy of my H daily is my goal. Putting him and his needs first is my priority.

What is your plan to achieve that ? How is that different from 2017 ?

Badmom, sounds like you are struggling and trying to see what insite might be found here.

I am having a hard time exactly putting my finger on it as well.

So, general impression. Your reconciliation energy for some reason is reading a bit... Flat... To me.

From 10000 feet you have all the right words, phrases, caption lines. You know the voculary. Seem to know the big picture goals and concepts. Sounds like you might be struggling with the execution details. Maybe recognizing opportunities and taking advantage of them in a meaningful way. That can be frustrating for both of you. Perhaps it has both of you questioning what is really going on here.

I kind of wonder if you have left something out here? Perhaps you talked about it in vague generalities that could mean anything.

You are saying all the right things on face value. But, is the affair really over? Or is there something else? I sorta hear... In the guilt ridden borderline current wayward voice that "Husband is a real nice wonderful guy who doesn't deserve this".

I guess for some reason I am picking up a current wayward vibe. Perhaps your husband is as well? I mean, it sounds like you are going through the motions and saying most of the right things...

Then again.. Maybe you are over reading things a bit, and this is part of the up and down cycles that occur. Sometimes, things do land for awhile in ... flat plains were progress seems to stall... Forever.

[This message edited by QuietDan at 12:29 AM, December 24th (Sunday)]

For the 5 months since D-day, I have struggled with atonement, authenticity and honesty.

Time to be authentic and honest. Again.....do the poly.

Why not prove your honesty?

Unless you have lied about something that the poly would reveal?

Sex is still difficult for me and we are 15 mo out. I have only just reached acceptance that this shit actually happened recently. I am starting to accept that he has changed just now too.

Do not rush this. Stop flailing. Get a poly. Stay in IC. Read every book in the healing library. Journal your ass off. Do everything in your power to make your spouse's life easier while he heals from the trauma you inflicted.

Does that mean there was a loss of sexual desire for your husband and it hasn't come back yet?

Do you still desire the OM, or someone else? Don't recall if you started to look and feel about your husband like a "Friend" or "Brother". I think I remember some of the things you said had me wondering if this relationship is suffering from your husband being too much of a "nice guy". Loss of desire seems to follow loss of respect. Have you examined your feeling about your husband regarding this?

I'm with Quiet Dan on this. There seems to be something else at work, but I can't identify it.

Anyhow, you consciously rejected your husband and chose another. You chose to keep it secret and later to regard yourself as pitiable. Sorry to say, honey, but I believe you relationship is dead. When you husband begins to act less beta, he'll leave.

I didn’t want to reply in her thread, but it seems my thoughts on everything are pertinent to the discussion. I am the BH.

How do I put everything into words. My wife through her own selfishness wrecked our marriage and hurt our children. She hurt other people along the way. What can a person say to themselves after that? If your honest, nothing good. My wife has hit the lowest point of her life through her own selfish and thoughtless actions.

I think she needed to hit close to rock bottom to wake up. For the first time I am seeing pretty close to unflinching honestly. It took us 5 months, but we finally had a discussion about the core of our marriage and feelings toward one another. It was a painful discussion where she admitted to things about her feelings towards me the last few years. Her attraction and love towards me hit a very low point. Our marriage hit a perfect storm of circumstances that allowed her throw it away without a second thought. Nothing can change that.

Of course, the most obvious thing one might say at this point is why didn’t she say something or divorce me instead of having an affair? The answer to that is that my wife lies to herself a lot. That’s the core of it all really. Don’t we all, though? Unfortunately for my wife, she has almost no ability for introspection. She has never grounded herself from a lifetime of built up delusions. She has never had an event in her life, a crisis, that forced her to re-examine her core assumptions. A lifetime a self delusion crashed like an asteroid into our lives 5 months ago and I have been trying to untangle our lives since.

After our heart wrenching discussion last week, I see something authentic in her now beginning to emerge. It’s at the embryo stage, but it is there. She is also trying hard and I hope she remembers why. I expect a wife who is honest and authentic all of the time and it’s going to take work for her. She knows that this is her last chance to get things right. She needs to get things right for me, the kids, and herself. She will live a better life when she can be honest with herself.

So, my wife had an affair. She gave herself to another man in almost every important way. She lied and hurt people. She hurt me more than I thought I could hurt. It goes without saying that developing trust is a long term goal. However, I do believe her story now. She has unflinchingly agreed to a polygraph, as I have requested. The only reason that hasn’t occurred is that money has been tight due to the season and my focus on the welfare and happiness of the kids for Christmas.

Of course, I agree with you all. Her story at face value is unlikely to be true. However, if I am totally honest with myself, all evidence I have been able to find collaborates her story. I have no evidence that says she slept with him and many hard to hear details of the evening that make sense. She fully intended to sleep with him and do things that would have damaged our marriage beyond repair. She stopped just a hair short of an automatic deal breaker for me. Her AP sent her a text that I saw on DDay and that is the difference between R and D in all likelihood. She simply got caught before she was able to pass a point of no return. Her willingness to take the polygraph helps a lot. Of course, if she fails it means D. She knows that. I mean, she knows that without a shred of doubt.

Just like many of you, I sense my wife’s wayward thinking even in the midst of her efforts towards R. It’s her inauthenticity that is at her core. She is closed off and not honest with herself way too much. It shows. That doesn’t mean she is perpetuating an elaborate deception and I don’t believe that. I find that unlikely. I don’t think she is pining for the AP. I still think she has work to do in order to give herself the coping skills to avoid another affair, but I am willing to give her the time and space to do that.

Our love for almost 20 years was strong and we were good to each other. We are falling back to our instincts and core feelings towards one another and it serves us well most of the time.

I have come to a conclusion that I have options. I will not compromise on the marriage I want going forward. She can meet me halfway with total authenticity or we can part ways. For the sake of the kids, she gets a final chance to make this right. She can fail and that will result in D.