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Yes, someone "new" is more exciting, but if you'll be a whore for your AP, what makes you think that being a whore for your husband is anything but a great idea to keep things exciting?

Hey Dee, did you drop the mic after you finished that post? Because, if not, you should have! And, being a woman, it would be great if you just copy/paste that exact thing into every one of these threads that pops up, most importantly on the WW threads giving the long/emotionally entangled and FOO laden stories of why they were happy to engage in anal sex twice a day in a mall parking lot in the AP's station wagon without lube, but just "can't bring themselves to do it" with their BH's. Or, to get both sides, WH's who spend hours going down on their AP's and then give some wild ass reason why it was all a "fantasy" and he really hates doing it, so, no oral for you BW.

To be honest, I don't know if I've seen a post here on SI from a WW who has tried to justify doing sexual things with her AP and then denying them to her BH if he requests them.

I've seen posts from BH's that describe how their WW had previously denied them certain sexual acts that the WW then shared with the AP, and how powerfully that hurt them. In some cases, the WW offered these acts to the BH after the discovery of the A, but my recollection is that in most instances this is not a successful offer because the BH, having been denied these acts before the A, now feels that they are not being offered freely, a false effort that is not heartfelt. Without taking count, to my recollection in most cases those BH's ended up in a D.

In other words, if the specific act was denied the BH before the A, offering it up after the A is usually too little, too late.

I've also seen posts from waywards (both WH and WW) and betrayeds (both BH and BW) that describe how certain sexual acts trigger (bad) memories of the AP and become difficult for them. And many more posts about how any kind of sex is difficult because it triggers thoughts about the A.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 12:55 PM, May 25th (Friday)]

"In some cases, the WW offered these acts to the BH after the discovery of the A, but my recollection is that in most instances this is not a successful offer because the BH, having been denied these acts before the A, now feels that they are not being offered freely, a false effort that is not heartfelt. Without taking count, to my recollection in most cases those BH's ended up in a D."

But see, this is the thing, and the reason this conversation is important, because, yes, I do agree, most of the time I see this it's on the way to D. But it doesn't have to be. If WS's get the message early, they can reverse that course. And that's the reason I post in these threads, in the hopes that the WH who bought his AP flowers every day might think "shoot, I better do more for my W, even if she doesn't know, because it will matter to her" and the WW who reads this and thinks "Well, I swallowed every time with my AP, my H knows, but he hasn't made a big deal out of it". It's killing him, and it's killing her. And yes, either of them can say "I want you to buy flowers every day" or "I want you to swallow", but it'll ruin it for the BS, because, as you correctly point out, it won't be freely given. But if a WS reads this and realizes, crap, yes, I should be doing this, then mission accomplished. WW's, break out the "good stuff"; give your BH the sex you think he wants, even if you didn't do it with the AP, if you think he'd like it, do it. And if you did it with the AP and not him, make it a big part of your relationship moving forward. And if you don't want to/don't feel like it? Ask for a D and move on. WH's, break out the good stuff, spent hours writing love letters, bought fancy jewelry, took off work to see the AP. Do all that and more with your WW, not because she beats you over the head and says "I want a bigger ring". Because that will ruin it, just go to the store and get her something. Don't want to/don't feel like it? Ask for a D and move on.

Rideitout, good points. We have a few recent examples here of waywards who have done what you describe, quite instinctively and naturally. In the end the heart wants what it wants. For a wayward whose heart is truly 100% invested in R with the betrayed, that wayward won't need coaching, coaxing, nor coercion.

Xst on a cracker. This again?

What Dee said. That's all there is to it.

The rub of it is: BHs, if she says no, then it is up to you to divorce her. You can't sit around moaning and hoping she will put out. You have to pull the trigger and mean it.

That's all there is to it, too.

We have a few recent examples here of waywards who have done what you describe, quite instinctively and naturally. In the end the heart wants what it wants. For a wayward whose heart is truly 100% invested in R with the betrayed, that wayward won't need coaching, coaxing, nor coercion.

I think butforthegrace captured it well - those that hear the message and then make a conscious choice to help their BS by giving what is needed, they are likely among those rare remorseful, accountable waywards that are fully vested in the R. If a BS finds themself communicating the same message over and over, with the WS showing no empathy or real desire to work out ways to make the BS feel desired and satisfied, then they have made a choice about where they stand in the R and with the BS.

It may be more about getting out of the M than it is getting the WS to get the message. They've heard it. They don't care.

If you'll do it with some douchebag, what in the world keeps you from doing it with your husband?

A history of abuse can do that.

I'm not saying a history of abuse will do that always, but it does some of the time, especially when the A is a replay of the abuse - and that appears to happen in a significant number of As.

Coercion by the ap is another reason. There are things I want that my W refuses. There are things she wants that I refuse. One of them came up after d-day. My W said she'd do it, but ow coerced her (with threats of outing her), and I'd have to coerce her, too. My whole being much prefers living without to coercing her. Besides, coercion does not make for a good R.

BTW, when I was a freshman in college, Playboy published an interview with a high end prostitute, and she said the most frequent requests were blow jobs.

That was at the start of the sexual revolution, so I don't know what the status is now, and I don;t know if PE evens publishes a monthly mag now, but there really were useful bits of info along with the photos. Come to think of it, a lot of the cartoons and jokes were pretty good, too.

Coercion by the ap is another reason. There are things I want that my W refuses. There are things she wants that I refuse. One of them came up after d-day. My W said she'd do it, but ow coerced her (with threats of outing her), and I'd have to coerce her, too. My whole being much prefers living without to coercing her. Besides, coercion does not make for a good R.

I would never believe this. Even if it's true, and my W kind of tried to claim the same thing, there would have to be a TON of evidence backing it up before I'd even start to entertain that it might be true. OK, so he forced you, but then, 2 hours later, you had sex again? Or 3 days later, you reached out to him on the phone/txt to say "Hi" or "I love you". Now, if you did this act (whatever it is) and then ghosted the AP; OK, yeah, I might be able to believe that. And the TXT messages from the AP were met with "Never talk to me again" or a reference to what happened (before d-day), then I'd consider that it might be true. But you were forced, then you went back for more a day (or an hour) later? Nope, I couldn't believe that, sadly, even if it were true.

I do agree, it does not make for a good R. Which is why we should encourage WS's to not but their BS in the situation to begin with, instead of forcing them to make this an issue, do it preemptively and you'll never have the issue that I face, feeling like your forcing the person you love to do something sexual (even though she claims she wants to do it now). And let me tell you, if there's any faster way to kill a hard-on, I'm not aware of it.

Apropos of this topic, right now there are two threads in the Reconciliation forum. I mention them because these questions are so specific to the individual circumstances of the people involved. It's not simply a matter of "you did X for the AP, so therefore you must do X for your betrayed."

Thread 1: A BH explains that his WW has begun sexting him. This is something BH had apparently desired prior to the A, but WW did not do it with him. However, she did it with AP. Now, WW is doing it with BH. BH is conflicted about his feelings. On the one hand, he likes the act of sexting, and he appreciates that his WW is making the effort. On the other, the fact that she previously denied this to him and is doing it now, apparently only because she did it with the AP, triggers him. It makes him wonder if it is an insincere gesture.

Thread 2: A BW explains that her WH has has begun composing sweet/romantic texts every day to tell her that he loves her.. This is something she had apparently desired prior to the A, but WH did not do it for BW. However, he did it for AP. Now, he is doing it for BW. BW is conflicted about her feelings, for the same reasons described above. Sometimes WH's romantic messages have the opposite effect, making her profoundly sad.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 11:05 PM, May 25th (Friday)]

I read both of those threads and I didn’t see anywhere where it was specifically desired or asked for pre-A. I saw the BH say he would have liked that, but that could have been in hindsight. Neither thread indicated to me that either circumstance it was something outright denied to the BS beforehand....just had never come up or been tried.

[This message edited by Darkness Falls at 1:02 AM, May 26th (Saturday)]

WW here. No I gave nothing to the AP that my BH isn't getting, so I'm not sure that my opinion counts on this. But if there was something that the AP wanted that I didn't want to give, I would not give. That comes a bit too close to sexual assault to me, so Rideitout, I agree with you. The AP would be ghosted immediately. On the other hand, as a woman, any kind of coercion or ultimatum giving is absolutely abhorrent to me. If there is something sexual I don't want to do (for ANY reason), I will not do it. I'm adventurous though, so that hard limit list is pretty short. But my WW status does not change that my body is mine to decide what I will do. If I had tried something with the AP and hated it, I am not sure my BH would get it either. But I also can't see him putting me in the position to give him something I don't enjoy because someone got it once. If he did give me the "do it or D" line, I would have to think long and hard about it. Anyway, just the opinion here from someone who didn't whore it up with the AP and deny my H anything. (Great line btw DDee).

[This message edited by Barregirl at 6:03 AM, May 26th (Saturday)]

Coercion can be accomplished without force.

We all have to do what we think is best for accomplishing our goals.

We all have to make our own decisions WRT the honesty of others. There are methods for testing veracity, all of which I used, and all of which said my W was honest.

She was coerced by threats into a number of acts, sexual and non-sexual, that she would not have done without the coercion. My bet is that she is not alone among WSes. I suspect, in fact, that it affects many KISA WSes.

Coercion can be accomplished without force.

Coercion /koʊˈɜːrʒən/, /koʊˈɜːrʃən/ is the practice of forcing another party to act in an involuntary manner by use of threats or force.

Yes, by threats or force. And it sounds like you're talking about the "by threats". And honestly, while I don't want to get too off topic, this is part of the problem of R in general, just about everything involves some level of coercion. Tell me the truth or I'm leaving. Give me a timeline or I'll file. Go NC or I'm out of here. And yes, the sexual stuff too, although, for some reason, that feels even worse (although, at least for me, the "tell me the truth" felt awful enough for a lifetime). In fact, as I think it through more, I know in my case, there was a lot more coercion by me than there was the AP (there was none that I know of, his tactic was lie, not force); and I suspect that I'm not alone here. Being a BS puts you in a situation where your going to have to coerce your WS to do lots of things, go to IC, get a poly, write a timeline. All done under threat of D. This could be part of the reason it's so hard, IMHO, because who wants to do this to someone you love?

She was coerced by threats into a number of acts, sexual and non-sexual, that she would not have done without the coercion. My bet is that she is not alone among WSes. I suspect, in fact, that it affects many KISA WSes.

Here's the hard part. I suspect your right, it's not unique, and I'm sorry that your W was in this situation. But, I would contend, for every 10 WS's who claims coercion, there's maybe 1 who was really put into the "sleep with me or I'll tell your boss" situation. It's a perfect "get out of jail free" card that has little chance of being discovered as a ruse, and a really good chance of reliving some of the tension that a WS feels. I've seen stories on here from guys saying that their AP had them in some sort of coerced situation, and then they go over and sleep with them half a dozen times. While you may not like that your AP can destroy your world with a well placed phone call, that's part of an A. I struggle to consider the coercion; it's like handing someone from TMZ nude pictures of yourself on a flash drive after taking 10K in payment and then claiming that you were blackmailed to keep quiet by TMZ. This is part and parcel of an A, your AP is going to know things that can destroy you, and there's always going to be power plays that either can make or imply. If you don't like it, don't get into an A. But this is what you signed up for, so I feel about as sorry for your typical coerced AP as I do for the solder who complains that his drill Sargent is coercing them to run 5 miles a day. Yes, he is, but you signed up for this, it's part of being in the military as much as your AP knowing things that can deeply damage you is of being in an A. Do most people realize that? No, they probably don't, but does that change the nature of what they did, willingly entering into a situation where coercion is almost an "implied characteristic" of the relationship? No, it doesn't, not IMHO.

I guess the message that I would give WS's, don't put your BS into a situation where they have to coerce you if you want to R. Go NC without being asked. Give access to your accounts without your WS hacking your phone. Provide a written timeline immediately and keep filling it in as details resurface. And yes, amp up the sex without necessarily having to give the play by play of what happened with the AP and making your BS "demand" those acts. Do it without being asked, all these things, and you'll have a much better chance at R. Make the BS demand them all, and you'll wind up doing them all anyway, and probably divorced, because who wants to be married to someone who you have to threaten or cajole to get them to do the right or just thing?

[This message edited by Rideitout at 9:48 AM, May 26th (Saturday)]

Well my post-menopausal, very happy WW has really no libido.

For most all of our marriage (approx 24 yrs), sex was, well, not optimal. She brought from childhood an unhealthy attitude toward sex - the whole toxic shame thing.

Then she had an A in which she was hot and bothered like never in our M.

I want hot sex with a woman who wants it bad. Not interested in getting the happy to oblige sex.

I feel like OM got what I never got prior to A and what biology has taken away after...

Very bummed out.

^^^That is what I started the thread with. There was a lot of good discussion covering a range of related issues.

I decided to no longer initiate. Just hang out an watch. We now have a ** dead bedroom **.

Meanwhile, WW continues to be a happy camper. Everything in her world is great. Happy M, has a good H, great kids who are now about to leave the nest. Heck, she's probably planning for being a grandmotherr and lookin forward to our golden years.

To say that I am bummed out is an understatement.

All my adult life I have seen books and articles about how men don't understand women. Yada yada. I have concluded that women don't understand men that much either.

WHILE MARRIED, to know that your wife was all hot and bothered by OM and got off being pounded and penetrated by OM in a way you will never get is a special kind of hell.

There is always someone smarter, better in bed, funnier, more successful than each person here. Maintaining the marriage commitment is a statement that overall the good outweighs the bad, and that while there is always someone out there 'better', your husband is good enough.

And while I have an appreciation that on an intellectual level my WW has learned a lot, acknowledged all kinds of FOO issues and all her own personal problems, and has grown a lot to be what someone else/new would consider a fantastic catch, all I see is someone happily moving on to a stage of life that I'm not going to be content with right now.

I want something and someone different.

Boy I wish I could go back to being 24 again.

You have been heard.

It's ok to pull the plug. It's ok to divorce her over this issue.

I would put money down that you wouldn't be contemplating leaving her if it weren't for her actions and attitudes towards her lover vs you.

Feeling like a consolation prize who only ever got the crumbs from some random asshole's table is no way to live.

Redhorse, you may not be 24 but you can bet that you have at least a good 20+ years left in you. Do you want to spend it in exactly the same place you are today? No? Then it's time to make some changes. See a lawyer. See a therapist for yourself. Prepare to put it all on the table whether it's demanding things change for your sake or getting out of this hell without your WW.

I want something and someone different

redhorse, I agree with antlered on this one.

If you can't love your spouse for who they are, then move on; otherwise, you're just going to be miserable the rest of the marriage.

Sorry you are going through this.

Then she had an A in which she was hot and bothered like never in our M.

Reminder: an A is comparable to dating, not marriage. I would not ever want to tell you what to feel, but go ahead and chase "hot and bothered" in a non-cheating MARRIAGE--not dating!--and you won't find it.

I'm sorry.

People can correct me, but my opinion is that porn sex does not exist consistently for women in a long-term marriage.

OIN, I disagree. I have been married over 9 yrs and would have porn sex every day if it was possible with my H. It is only bc of him that we don’t. We only have sex on average once a week though and I get pissed about that.