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I think you’re confusing a bunch of psycho babble with simple rationalization.

I think you're misunderstanding human behavior.

Have you never had a crush? Have you never been limerent? Can you not understand that sometimes hormones take over, and if a person is in pain when that happens, all bets are off?

Once one hits adulthood, we are supposed to stay in reality, and we have the ability to do so. Giving into one's hormones when we're in a committed relationship should happen only with one's partner.

But if one has not let herself mature - or if abuse has kept a person from maturing - affairs happen. There's no excuse for it, but affairs happen.

Not all As develop out of limerence. My W's didn't. But some do.

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Bish and stayed, Your writing in this thread, and in others, seems to say you don't think WSes are redeemable. Is that really what you think?

She earns a chance as long as she is doing her part.

I changed it for you.

Small thing, but important to how your organize your thoughts and give meaning to this time in your life. No one deserves a second chance. That is why R is such a gift.

Also I think you put the decision on her and her efforts. It mentally robs you of your choice and your agency as an individual who is M'd. Don't sell your self short.

This takes time. You need to see consistent changes. Compliance is not the same as building healthy boundaries.

I think Needtomoveon and Hiking explained very well what I as a BS believe happened.

When I was in my own “fog” with my WH (ie. crazily in love with him) I left my entire life behind, my friends, my family, my career, and moved countries WITH him in his flat at the time. We have been in a long distance relationship with for 2 years by then, seeing each other for a few days every 2-3 months. When I made the move I counted that we physically saw each other 37 days. Internet back then was dial up connection and there were no smart phones. I had to go to a Internet cafe to email him as I had no pc at home and nor did he. I’d email one day a week and he’d reply within that week. Mobile phone calls were expensive and we could only have 1-2 short(ish) calls a week. I’m telling you all this for the context.

And then I said to my mum: I’m moving to UK with this guy. My mum was shocked, my friends were shocked. Everybody tried to convince me that he should first take some time off (like he promised in the past) and spend some time with me in my home country before I move in with him. Nope, I wasn’t having it and I moved. 6 months later we got married.

Was my brain taken over by zombies and did I suffer from a disease doing something that didn’t make sense to anyone, risking everything I had and moving in with a man I actually didn’t know? No. I knew what I was doing. But the adrenaline, the “fog” of it all made me dismiss any reasoning my loved ones tried to have with me. Later on when the “fog” has lifted and the love became mature and settled I used to look back and think “oh my God, how crazy was I, I was lucky he didn’t turn into a wife beater or god knows what else”. I used to tell our story in pride but always mention “yeah, I was crazy like that”.

So no, there’s no excuse for a 45 yo man (my WH) to disengage from his marriage and engage his emotions externally (and with a crazy ow may I add, going back to affairing down, I can expand on that if anybody wants) and he should have made a conscious decision of keeping away from temptation and state any unfulfilled needs to me.

Do I understand the process though and what happened to him? Yes I do and it is painful to accept it but I can explain what happened. And currently I chose to believe that 9 months of out of character behaviour (or more so a hidden part of his character that I never seen before to this extend though I had glimpses of it, selfishness) where he hopefully learns his lesson will not cancel years of marriage happiness. Maybe I am naive. Only time will tell.

[This message edited by Luna10 at 12:44 PM, April 25th (Wednesday)]

@ Needtomoveon

Whilst you have understood limerance and its dopamine and PEA effects, I would contest your use of the word love in that context of A limerance, and the equivalence you make. Love is to my mind a verb but not in the way I feel you are using it. You are talking about falling in love - so easy just falling so out of control and just so Hollywood - rather than standing in love. Standing in love - for love - is exactly what WSs did not do. And that is what I contend love is. Not the biochemical limerant version, that you seem to suggest is some sort of equivalent, which is often about self-love and mirroring, rather than acting with love.

I see that you are going through withdrawal and I recommend the philosopher Erich Fromm on love, if it's of interest.

[This message edited by Edie at 11:14 AM, April 25th (Wednesday)]

Luna - as discussed in another post, it sounds like my A was similar to your WH's. What we're describing is probably only relevant to affairs that are emotional in nature and spread over a period of time that allows people to bond. Those that are ONS or short and physical only might be a bit different and the WS might not get the 'fog' or feel addicted to that particular person. They might more be addicted to sex, attention, etc in the round.

I have a theory that this type of affair (emotional, over a period of time, addiction with one AP) is more likely to be a one off. As long as you can remove that bond with the AP and not fall back into things with them. I know from my perspective that I never want to feel this pain again - both the pain I've caused to BS but in all honesty also the emotional pain I've caused myself. I can therefore say with a fair bit of confidence that I can't see myself starting up something like this again with someone else. Perhaps if I had had ONS and not been emotionally hurt myself, I'd be more likely to fall into that trap again with other women in the future (if I was brutally honest). But for me I think the challenge is making sure I don't fall back into the trap with the existing AP I formed that bond with. If I can break that, I don't think I'll be tempted to reoffend in the future. And I'm very much determined (and on track) to break that bond with AP. Seeing the hurt she caused my BS has been a huge help in doing this.

I could be talking complete rubbish though - does anyone have any insights on whether my theory is true?

Edie - I completely agree with you. I was a bit conscious about using the word love as it means different things to different people. I think limerence is the first phase of something that SOMETIMES develops into a deeper meaningful love. Love, that is built up over time, based on trust and honesty etc. is something that takes time to develop. But most of the time, that process all starts with the biochemical bit.

Lots of people (like Luna) make big life changing decisions like moving countries when they're in this phase, and are lucky when the true love develops after. So I think that's why people confuse the two... often one leads to the other (although not always)

Bish and stayed, Your writing in this thread, and in others, seems to say you don't think WSes are redeemable. Is that really what you think?

No, I don’t think someone who cheats is unredeemable. I think people are capable of great change.

Maybe it doesn’t come across well, but my mind is about betrayeds and encouraging not to accept unacceptable behaviors and responses because of the shocking trauma. My heart goes out to betrayeds who live in pain because they are in a difficult crossroads in life due to their cheater, and willingly accept less than they deserve (for whatever reasons the betrayed has). It’s just my opinion, but I don’t think calling abusive or cruel treatment a “fog” is helpful for someone to get out infidelity. My opinion is that putting a soft term on abuse is a huge disservice to the abused.

From my perspective, it makes no difference if the cheating spouse becomes the best person in the world, the betrayed is under no obligation to take that journey with the cheater. But if the betrayed is going to do it, then it should be with the cold hold truth that their spouse was/is abusing them and that the relationship between cheater and affair partner was very real (it may not be quality, and cheater may not understand what they saw in them later down the road, but they wer expriencing real feeling and in a real relationship). When those things are softened, it’s makes it easier for a betrayed to stay in a situation that is not to their benefit.

Needtomoveon

I’ve been out of the affair for 3.5 weeks. I love my BS very much and he’s amazing! I know he’s the man for me. But this stupid “fog” won’t let me let go of the AP 😭

but I don’t think calling abusive or cruel treatment a “fog” is helpful

I don't look at "fog" as an excuse as much as I view it as a "state of mind" or an explanation of why a wayward is acting like a complete jackass.

It's not an excuse for abusive or cruel treatment. It's just a phrase used to identify "that a waywards head is in their ass",,,,,,

I’ve been out of the affair for 3.5 weeks

From what others post here, it can take awhile before your head is out of the A. AND you have to work like hell to get it out.

I don't look at "fog" as an excuse as much as I view it as a "state of mind" or an explanation of why a wayward is acting like a complete jackass.

It's not an excuse for abusive or cruel treatment. It's just a phrase used to identify "that a waywards head is in their ass",,,,,,

This goes to my point though. Why give cruel and abusive behavior a soft or innocuous name? Abusive and cruel treatment isn’t a state of mind, it’s a character problem

Think about it, what person would say “When does the cruelty and abuse stop? How can I help him snap out of it?” I can’t imagine anyone saying or writing that to themselves and be willing to ride it out.

But saying “when does the fog stop? How can I help him snap out of it?” Doesn’t sound as insidious as it really is. Doesn’t prompt a betrayed suffering in pain and trauma to recognize their abuse.

That is exactly my problem with labeling the behavior of a cheater after the affair by lying, trickle truth, breaking NC with a cute little word. I feel like perpetuating that label is harmful to betrayeds, especially those stuck in the cycle of abuse.

[This message edited by TheBish at 3:52 PM, April 25th (Wednesday)]

Why give cruel and abusive behavior a soft or innocuous name?

Splitting hairs here.

I guess it was called fog because fog in its definition describes situations where there is "no clarity, one cannot see through the "fog", Hence, the head in ass syndrome.

If you don't like the word fog, let's call it "shit". That's a better explanation of it.

It’s calling something other than it is that is the problem. It’s not lack of clarity or confusion. The cheater knows damn well what they want. They want the time and affection of the affair partner, they lie to avoid responsibility, they are still acting selfish. Just because they are not making the correct decision from the betrayed’s view point, that does not mean the cheater is confused or unclear in what they want. They’re very clear because they keep taking steps to get it (keep contacting affair for time and affection, keep lies and secrets so the betrayed doesn’t leave/take away their comfortable life)

I agree, cruel and abusive behavior is shitty, but it’s still cruel and abusive and nothing else.

keep lies and secrets so the betrayed doesn’t leave/take away their comfortable life

This is the one thing I DON'T GET!

If they are sooooo in LOOOOVE, why in the HELL don't they leave the spouse?????? They can make a comfortable life with the AP if that's what they really want.

If I were a cheater and was "so in love", I would have NO problem dumping the spouse to pursue the AP. Cheaters re-write their marriage history and tell the sad story of how "miserable their marriage is" why in the hell don't they pack their shit and get the F out????? Why cause all the turmoil and pain to the BS? Rip the damn bandaid off and GET OUT!

Please! Someone explain this to me because I don't get it. Maybe I am just stupid or something,,,,Maybe I am the one in the "fog",,,,

I think you're misunderstanding human behavior.

Have you never had a crush? Have you never been limerent? Can you not understand that sometimes hormones take over, and if a person is in pain when that happens, all bets are off?

Once one hits adulthood, we are supposed to stay in reality, and we have the ability to do so. Giving into one's hormones when we're in a committed relationship should happen only with one's partner.

But if one has not let herself mature - or if abuse has kept a person from maturing - affairs happen. There's no excuse for it, but affairs happen.

Not all As develop out of limerence. My W's didn't. But some do.

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Bish and stayed, Your writing in this thread, and in others, seems to say you don't think WSes are redeemable. Is that really what you think?

Come sisoon, you don't really believe that hormone shit do you? Everyone has hormones, most everyone may occasionally find someone other than their mate attractive, sometimes that attraction goes both ways, but not every one cheats. That's a fucking choice. You have to go down the path of rationalizing a bunch of stuff to make that happen and be okay with it mentally.

Some people do the rationalization thing with food, alcohol, opiates, sleeping pills, paint, tide pods, whatever.

I’ve only read page 1 so far but I agree with TheBish and stayedforthekids.

That's a fucking choice. You have to go down the path of rationalizing a bunch of stuff to make that happen and be okay with it mentally

True dat.

My WH said he did just that. Went down the path of rationalizing a bunch of shit to convince himself it was "OK" to cheat. And then he made the CHOICE to go through with it.

I think some of them have to talk themselves into it first so they don't feel like the POS they actually are.

When you think about it...Blaming it on chemistry/hormones in a way has the same end point as the "Red Pill" philosophy.

It removes the choice variable. It reduces the behaviour down to animalistic tendencies. Evolutionary drives. Thus it makes the person not responsibile for the choice they made.

After all, it was hormones (The Devil) that made them do it.

And if that is the case then no, these people cannot be redeemed. How to you redeem chemistry? It would be akin to trying to stop a lion from hunting.

But I can see the allure. If I want to stay with the cheater, why not blame something instead of someone?

Hormones aren't an excuse. At all. It all ultimately comes down to someone's will power (and moral compass) to stop them acting on any temptations/hormone driven instincts.

My point though, is that once you have decided to act on them (which I agree is completely wrong and inexcusable), the bond that some WS form with their AP is understandable and based on human biology. It can happen even if the WS doesn't plan on getting that emotionally involved at the start.

It's not an excuse, but an explanation of why a WS can seem like they're in the fog and struggle to move on from AP even though they really want to and know it's the right thing to do.

Fog, schmog. If it's really an addiction, then they COULDN'T snap out of it when they are served.

The feelings are real. Just like the "Oh shit, what have I done? I'm going to lose everything if I don't stop!" feelings are real.

The fog is an excuse used by both waywards and betrayeds.