SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Guys of course “the fog” disappears once the AP shows their true colours or the D is in sight, that’s when the fantasy unicorn land collapses and they realise that the grass is only greener on the other side because is fertilised with bullshit.

You can call it what you want, the fog, fantasy world, infatuation, limerence, addiction, it is a state explainable scientifically by wanting something that doesn’t actually exist in real world.

I want a pink unicorn and if somebody paints a horse pink and stucks a stick on its head I may believe I have a pink unicorn until the colour comes off and the stick falls off. While the horse is still flipping pink and has its stick I may though chose to believe I have a pink unicorn and insist I want to keep it.

In the A “fog” they believe they found some sort of love that fulfils them in ways nothing else could fulfil them in the real world. And they want/choose to believe it is real forgetting that once the A would be legitimised and out of the shadows nobody, and I categorically mean that, nobody can keep up the ego kibbles, the no bills paying, no conflict over anything ever. That’s why lots of times they try to keep both worlds. Because whatever reasoning they have left they realise that the AP will also become mundane and real once it is out in the open, even more mundane than their BS because in lots of cases they affaired down. So they still want their real life with heir married partner but if only they could keep the fantasy a bit longer...

And so when the D is in sight or the AP shows their true colours they chose the partner they have at home most of the times because of “better the devil you know”, the history, the achievements and the final realisation that the grass isn’t actually greener on the other side. Sadly we become the victims of their choices and take the worst consequences we can face for actions we had no say in it. The self esteem plummets and we’re left wondering for the rest of our lives who is the person living next to us and if they ever loved us.

of course “the fog” disappears once the AP shows their true colours or the D is in sight, that’s when the fantasy unicorn land collapses and they realise that the grass is only greener on the other side because is fertilised with bullshit.

Luna10 for the win!

Looking back on my previous account - Yes WH came out of unicorn land fog around the same time I reclaimed myself into the unicorn goddess that I am. I'm now giggling as I type this making mental unicorn horn comparisons and guess who wins

Guys of course “the fog” disappears once the AP shows their true colours or the D is in sight, that’s when the fantasy unicorn land collapses and they realise that the grass is only greener on the other side because is fertilised with bullshit.

You can call it what you want, the fog, fantasy world, infatuation, limerence, addiction, it is a state explainable scientifically by wanting something that doesn’t actually exist in real world.

I want a pink unicorn and if somebody paints a horse pink and stucks a stick on its head I may believe I have a pink unicorn until the colour comes off and the stick falls off. While the horse is still flipping pink and has its stick I may though chose to believe I have a pink unicorn and insist I want to keep it.

It’s this sentiment exactly why I take issue with describing a cheater still lying, pining for the affair partner, etc.

First, the feelings they had are/were very real. A cheating husband doesn’t have hot monkey sex with his affair partner in a seedy hotel because he’s living in fantasy land. A cheating wife doesn’t jerk off her co-worker in an empty conference room because she’s confused. The cheaters do what they do because it makes them feel good in the moment. They are selfish and entitled to such a degree that they either don’t think or care how this will affect the betrayed spouse. The make a bunch of mini choices and believe what they are feeling is more important than their duties and obligations to their betrayed spouse. They think so little of their betrayed spouse that they have put another in their place without the regard, consideration or respect to their spouse.

The fact that the cheater “snaps out of it” when presented with separation or divorce supports that it isn’t some affliction or altered state. It shows they damn well know their games don’t work.

This is my perception, when I read about betrayeds in enormous pain, especially caused by cheaters who keep doing hurtful things, and they ask about the fog, it reads like a way of being able to say “hey, this really isn’t my spouse, they’re just in fantasy land”. No. It is exactly the cheating spouse, that person showing you who they are. There’s nothing to clear up. They really felt those things for the affair partner. It wasn’t pretend. Sure, looking back they may be surprised about what they ever saw in that person or felt—similar to how someone may feel about an old boyfriend/girlfriend—but that doesn’t mean what they were thinking or doing during tha time wasn’t real. It seems to me calling it a fog gives a betrayed person a false tool to comprehend such deep betrayal and stay married.

Every one has their journey and reasons for why they stay or go. But don’t let a cheater and their cruel, abusive, disrespectful and unloving behavior towards a betrayed in the wake of discovery be softened to some biological explanation that implies they just couldn’t help it. Yes, yes they could have but chose not to. I think betrayeds deserve more respect and care and consideration than to have cruel and abusive behavior given an innocuous name called “the fog”.

ETA: If we start calling the behavior what is really is—cruel, disrespectful and abusive, maybe betrayers will be able to act in their best interests sooner. It’s easier to tolerate hubby crying over affair partner when he’s experiencing fog vs hubby keeps disrespecting and abusing me by cruelly wishing for time with affair partner.

[This message edited by TheBish at 12:24 PM, April 24th (Tuesday)]

I want to clarify my post:

The "fog" (btw, I hate that term and in the ways it's misused, I use it for shorthand), is not an excuse for an affair. You make a lot of decisions in having the affair and your brain has not been taken over into some zombie-trance type thing. Those decisions are there, and they can't be discounted as anything but decisions.

I compared it to alcoholism because many times for someone to become an alcoholic they chose to drink and drink without actually having that addiction/dependence for some period of time. They willingly ignored what their spouse, family, their life needed and made the decision to drink. It's at some point they became dependent on it. They start telling themselves stories about why it's okay, how they deserve it, and it isn't hurting anything. If they break no contact, it's like being sober and picking up one drink - they before they know it are back into the thick of it and maybe worse than before.

Cognitive Dissonance/Distorted thinking does kick in at some tipping point. The lies you tell yourself so that you can keep having what you want, the addiction to the "good feelings".

Once discovered, or even at the threat of divorce, many people do not in fact snap out of it immediately. You can call it scientific garbage, but your dependency on the brain chemicals is high, and you associate that with the person you are having an affair with. Maybe some show a good game with it. But, for me working myself back out of the thinking was a lot of work with a therapist, during a large majority of the time I didn't even want to have the feelings I had.

I do not excuse the affair or what people call "the fog" that happens around the ending of the affair - I find it disgusting. For me to say I was pining over the AP and knowing that the AP did nothing but help me destroy my husband and my marriage - it makes me so disappointed in myself. It makes me question everything I ever thought about myself.

Discount it if you wish, but I know that there are many waywards who do not understand how to deconstruct it - and it has to almost be treated like an addicted habit.

I would contend we in essence are saying the same thing, but differently. We agree:

1. An affair is a decision. A series of a lot of decisions. (We may disagree that the dependence happens at some point as a result of these decisions).

2. The "relationship" is not real. It's a fantasy. It's not love.

3. If the "relationship" was to go to a full-time thing, the AP's almost assuredly aren't keeping up this level of "excitement" and are likely disappointed with what they end up with.

4. People always affair down. That in itself should tell you at some point, there is something going awry with the cognitive thinking. The intense feelings literally couldn't be based on the other person. So, it's the obsessive thinking, the brain chemistry, the typical physiological response of an affair.

Again, while I do believe there is that typical response to the affair in a wayward, I do not feel that it eliminates any responsibility they had in the situation. My original post was only to say that people who can't keep the NC likely have trouble with some sort of addictive issues, as I firmly do not believe it's because there was anything special about the AP in any of our situations.

Hikingout, I think you’re confusing a bunch of psycho babble with simple rationalization. And yes, addicts rationalize all the time too, the big difference is true addiction just doesn’t suddenly stop and completely change course in an instant.

I’ve actually witnessed the fog dissipate in an instant firsthand. The NC breaks, pining, and other bullshit stops when the BS doles out the D papers. Suddenly the WS completely changes their tune and the BS is the best thing that ever happened to them. You heard several other folks chime in with similar experiences.

Not every fuckup is because of a personality disorder, addiction, or other mental condition. Sometimes is just shitty choices for stupid rationalized “reasons”. That’s a lot tougher to own too because it requires accountability and personal responsibility.

2. The "relationship" is not real. It's a fantasy. It's not love.

3. If the "relationship" was to go to a full-time thing, the AP's almost assuredly aren't keeping up this level of "excitement" and are likely disappointed with what they end up with.

4. People always affair down. That in itself should tell you at some point, there is something going awry with the cognitive thinking. The intense feelings literally couldn't be based on the other person. So, it's the obsessive thinking, the brain chemistry, the typical physiological response of an affair.

I actually disagree with these points. The affair relationship is real. It exists/existed. It may not be the same as the relationship between the married persons, but it was real and experienced. I think calling the relationship fake is a disservice to oneself. For a spouse to cheat, they aren’t loving you, honoring you in the way you believed was reciprocal to each other (general you, not specific to one poster). It could be crappy quality, shallow, and not comparable to a marriage or whatever, but it was an actual relationship that the cheater and affair partner were in.

Who says all cheaters affair down? What does that mean exactly? Sure the betrayed will think so because it a low down thing to cheat with a married person and perceives themselves as better person (and true in that aspect). This is a focus that I think it a coping mechanism for a betrayed person bc it’s ftom their view. Bottom line is the cheater put the betrayed as lower than the affair partner.

Betrayed spouses have been dealt a devastating blow. Most betrayers consider cheating abusive. So to look at cheating and the subsequent disrespect of continued lies or contact etc as if it’s brain chemistry similar to addiction, I just don’t buy it. I think calling the behavior of a cheater in wake of discovery a fog is akin to saying the spouse who screams at and/or hits his wife someone who’s just under a lot of pressure and didn’t handle it well and didn’t really mean it, they were just under some affliction.

I think we agree the fog isn’t an excuse, but differ on what it is. I think if a betrayed spouse wants to reconcile with a cheater, they need to do it with eyes wide open as to who and what their cheating spouse is. In my opinion, calling abusive and cruel behavior in the wake of discovery anything other than it is, is the exact opposite of truly facing it.

None of what I’m saying means a betrayed can’t heal or forgive, or that a cheater can’t change. But why call the behavior anything other than it is...cruel and abusive?

she knows I'm done if anything happens again she actually thought it was over when she got caught and was so confused because she let him talk her into all of these things, how to set up a fake email, how to go get a burner phone, even though she had no intentions of being with him or seeing him again. I saw the emails to confirm this. they appear to be in such a confused state.

I don't understand how an adult can unknowingly allow another adult to talk them into doing anything. That is something my 12 year old would say.

Even giving her the benefit of the doubt, isn't closure supposed to be finality? I mean, sending a few emails, then making a few phone calls, is not closing the door; it is swinging it open again. Except it's doing it slowly so she can creep on out again.

I'm sorry but there was just too much time. My math says she had 15 days from the time she figured out it was him (if you believe it took her 30 days) until she made a decision to reach out for "closure." I get being caught up in the "moment," but moments don't last over two weeks.

IMO, she is not being 100% honest about the situation.

I get it. From someone who has attempted R, it is normal to want to look at outside influences or this "fog" as being responsible for her choices. But here is the catch 22: You will soon realize that if it is everyone but her, you will never feel safe.

In order to ever feel safe again, you have to trust she has rock-solid boundaries. Because the facts of life are that there are temptations everywhere. If it is in the air or water, she is one sip/breath away from blowing your world apart again.

You will never feel safe until she admits that at that moment in time, she knew exactly what she was doing and did it because she wanted to. I'm not saying she was not influenced by brain chemistry, just like someone stares at chocolate cake while on diet is influenced by their intense hunger. But at the end of the day, the cake did not make the person take a slice. If it was too much for them to handle, they should have had someone with more willpower remove the cake from the house.

I actually disagree with these points. The affair relationship is real. It exists/existed. It may not be the same as the relationship between the married persons, but it was real and experienced. I think calling the relationship fake is a disservice to oneself. For a spouse to cheat, they aren’t loving you, honoring you in the way you believed was reciprocal to each other (general you, not specific to one poster). It could be crappy quality, shallow, and not comparable to a marriage or whatever, but it was an actual relationship that the cheater and affair partner were in.

Who says all cheaters affair down? What does that mean exactly? Sure the betrayed will think so because it a low down thing to cheat with a married person and perceives themselves as better person (and true in that aspect). This is a focus that I think it a coping mechanism for a betrayed person bc it’s ftom their view. Bottom line is the cheater put the betrayed as lower than the affair partner.

Betrayed spouses have been dealt a devastating blow. Most betrayers consider cheating abusive. So to look at cheating and the subsequent disrespect of continued lies or contact etc as if it’s brain chemistry similar to addiction, I just don’t buy it. I think calling the behavior of a cheater in wake of discovery a fog is akin to saying the spouse who screams at and/or hits his wife someone who’s just under a lot of pressure and didn’t handle it well and didn’t really mean it, they were just under some affliction.

I think we agree the fog isn’t an excuse, but differ on what it is. I think if a betrayed spouse wants to reconcile with a cheater, they need to do it with eyes wide open as to who and what their cheating spouse is. In my opinion, calling abusive and cruel behavior in the wake of discovery anything other than it is, is the exact opposite of truly facing it.

None of what I’m saying means a betrayed can’t heal or forgive, or that a cheater can’t change. But why call the behavior anything other than it is...cruel and abusive?

I agree with all of this. If you want to heal and be successful with R, you have to lay it all out on the table--the good, the bad, and the plain ugly. My WS tried convincing me it was not real and she didn't know what she was thinking, but that is what ultimately derailed the R.

But that wasn't the truth. The truth was, at the time, she was doing whatever she was doing because she wanted to do it. Now, that does not mean she was unable to have regret or realize that what she was doing was something she ultimately did not want. Hell, I dated girls that looking back on it, I think WTF did I see in her? That does not mean at the time, I did not see something.

I get it thought. It's damn hard to come to terms with the fact that you did something so hurtful and cruel to the one you supposedly love. It's hard admitting that to others and even harder admitting that to yourself.

[This message edited by KingRat at 3:09 PM, April 24th (Tuesday)]

Not everyone agrees with my sentiments, but “affair fog” is bullshit. It makes it seem like they came down with some illness or affliction that was beyond their control. Some will talk about it like an addiction and an addict getting their fix. None of that is right—imho—and sounds like mental gymnastics for the betrayed.

All of this. Fog turns to addiction; addiction is now being called a disease, and people cannot be blamed for a disease. No, just no. It’s mental gymnastics to help BS feel better about trying to R with a person capable of purposefully decimating them.

No fog - it’s not an addiction - and no matter the circumstances the WS is 100% responsible for each and every minute choice made during the affair; from a simple text to deciding where and when to fuck. Hundreds and thousands of little to big choices made every damn day. Not a fog, not an addiction, not a disease; CHOICES!!

Hey Humbled, how are you doing today?

It sounds like your wife has snapped out of "The Fog"(TM). How are you?

As you can probably see, the idea of "The Fog"(TM) is controversial here, but ALL of us are pulling for you.

TheBish,

Points well taken. I can understand what you are saying and I agree with most of it. I do believe it is abusive behavior, I have stated that before.

I said affaired down because it's true...my H is a much more moral man than my Ap...and also more moral than me. I do believe I affaired down in many ways, and believe or not I believe that the AP in my situation affaired down as well. I have said that in other posts.

But, I said it to make a point - the majority of BS's here say that their spouses affaired down (most, not all). So, if your spouse affaired down, how does it make any sense that the person was also special? The two things don't coexist. When you boil it down, what I liked about the AP is how I felt, it had very little to do with them other than their ability to blow sunshine up my butt. I used him to feel good, and vice versa. That's not love.

Maybe you are right, maybe I am not owning it. But my experience is I did not love the AP in my situation. I projected a lot onto him that really had nothing to do with him.

I can definitely see your point about a relationship being real, because saying that there wasn't would mean it didn't happen. I should have said "relationship based on anything real".

Stayedforthekids:

I agree, the BS should walk a hard line when discovery is made. I actually said that in a prior post on this thread. Coddling the WS is generally a recipe for enabling.

Also, I make the COMPARISON to addiction, because it's the closest thing that resembles what I experienced. I feel like I spent a lot of time justifying, re-writing, and obsessing, and coming away from that and re-framing it took a lot of therapy and work. I am sure there are a lot of different experiences in terms of reactions, but what you are describing simply wasn't my experience. It wasn't a light switch. I re-read and I might have been too strong in my comparison to addiction, so that is my bad. I do think the term withdrawal is correct in many ways, and my IC and MC agree.

I don't say these things because I am proud of them. Believe me when I say I am not. But I do think they are true for me, and I do think there are many others that would describe their experience the same, just as there is another camp that experienced something else.

I agree with all of this. If you want to heal and be successful with R, you have to lay it all out on the table--the good, the bad, and the plain ugly. My WS tried convincing me it was not real and she didn't know what she was thinking, but that is what ultimately derailed the R.

Oh, I haven't said I didn't know what I was thinking, not here and not to my husband. I definitely own that it was a decision, a series of decisions, and that I was doing what I wanted to do. What I am saying is when you get into the situation you lie to yourself, you re-write the narrative, and you start doing whatever you need to keep it going. I am not glorifying any behavior here.

Also, just for the record, I am really not saying it IS an addiction. I am saying that I had a habit of obsessive thinking about the AP and that I had to address it as such. You will note that in my post I said comparable, almost, etc. I am not medically diagnosing anything. So, I apologize that it's misleading.

I said affaired down because it's true

I would agree with this. They do A down because who would have an A with a married person if they weren't,,,well,,,SCUM.

And I buy into the "Fog" somewhat. Not all of it, but something does happen in a wayward's brain that makes them a moron, and then to justify in their heads what they are doing is "OK", stupidity takes over.

My WH said he knew what he was doing was wrong, but told himself over and over again (justification) that our marriage was hurting and I didn't love him so what he was doing was OK. Doesn't mean it was an excuse because there is NO excuse for ANYONE to have an A. A wayward's head is squarely in their ass during the time they are involved with someone they shouldn't be.

I also think it isn't "real". My H has stated numerous times that Yes, there was a relationship, but it never delt with or had to deal with "real life" situations. He told me last night that a marriage is "real" and what he had was bullshit with the AP. Smoke and mirrors, and when the shit hit the fan, it exploded. And not right a way. Most Waywards don't stop having "feelings" for their AP the minute the A is discovered. Some do I suppose, but those are probably the ones that were just in it for sex and had no emotional attachment.

I know my H had a hard time detaching because he felt guilt in both worlds now. Remorse and guilt for cheating on me, and now guilt for bringing another person into his life even though she was a willing participant and needs to own her own shit. BOOM! Worlds collided and now damage control needs to step in. He needed to finally see it for what it really was and realize what he was feeling wasn't about the AP at all. It was HIM that had the issue and it was HIM that needed to fix himself.

[This message edited by Evertrying at 3:54 PM, April 24th (Tuesday)]

the big difference is true addiction just doesn’t suddenly stop and completely change course in an instant

I work with addiction. The above statement is so true. Are there similarities? Yes.

A horse and buggy is somewhat like a Ferreri. They both move people.

Take Dopamine. You get a release of it when your kid scores a goal. You also get a release of it from heroin. One is an addiction. One is not.

Heroin addicts do not stop on a dime when presented with massive consequences. Deny they ever really like heroin. Nope. They keep right on going. Most will die of the addiction.

I wish it worked the other way. I wish divorce papers could cure addiction as fast as it does the “Fog”

Heroin addicts do not stop on a dime when presented with massive consequences

Agree totally. Hence withdrawl from AP. I tried to put myself in my H position and think what it would be like to be a cheater and have feelings for someone else and then have the rug pulled out from me on Dday. Just because you are busted, doesn't mean the feelings are gone.

My H tried to keep both worlds for two weeks and lied to me that he dumped his AP. He lied to her too (big surprise) and told her he was trying to figure out what he wanted, when what he WAS doing was trying to maintain both relationships, keeping them separate from one another to avoid withdrawl and keep cake eating.

Of course that was a big shit sandwich and didn't work. Once he started coming out of the state of mind he was in, a wonderful thing called clarity started to emerge.

about 90 days into our recovery she messaged him back and that started a two-weeks of emailing and her buying a burner phone and three phone calls before I caught her. She said she never wanted to meet up with him again but needed closure she also said she didn't want to be with him

She made a conscious decision again to carry on the affair. She'd still be doing it if you hadn't caught her. This is a part of who she is. You don't go out and buy a burner phone for closure. It's to conceal carrying on the affair. Cheaters lie a lot if you haven't figured that out.

If other man is married you need to inform his wife.

IMO "the fog" is an excuse to try and justify the behavior.

We are doing really well. Fog, limerence, feelings, whatever you call it. Once he buried himself she became a different person overnight. It really was shocking. All the lying stopped. She is doing everything and I mean everything she can to help me heal. She is back to the person i married except better because she dealt with her issues. R is our choice and commitment. 30 years of history 2 kids, 1 grandchild, together since 14 and 16. She deserves a chance as long as she is doing her part

WH here, in early stages of recovery. Hikingout describes things really well. It is definitely like an addiction. I was completely obsessed with my AP. Thought about her constantly and couldn't switch it off even though I really wanted to. I knew my behaviour and my thoughts were destructive not only to my BS but to my own life...

However, I also agree with those who say that the 'fog' isn't an excuse or a disease. It's just a literary and visual word that describes how a person behaves when in the clutches of addiction.

The uncomfortable truth with the addiction and the fog though, is that the 'high' a WS receives are the chemicals that get released when you're forming a bond with someone romantically. We're biological animals and our bodies are wired to form bonds with people to reproduce. If you make the immoral and wrong choice to begin starting to form a bond with someone outside your marriage (for whatever reasons), it's normal for your body, hormones, etc. to create this "addiction" or "fog" feeling. You end up connected to that person even if you didn't plan on it, and withdrawing yourself from it is incredibly hard.

I say that this is an uncomfortable truth because I think most WS and BS prefer to tell themselves that they didn't love their AP at all, and then latch onto all sorts of personal issues in their past that caused them to act how they did. My view (although I'm no expert!) is that those deep down personal issues may explain why you originally embarked on forming that forbidden bond.... but after you set yourself on that road, the WS forms legitimate connection with AP based on the same core feelings and chemicals that underpin human love and bonding. The same chemicals and feelings that the BS and WS felt when they first met all those years ago.

I am absolutely not excusing any behaviour of a WS here. The choice to start forming a bond with someone else is totally wrong, selfish, and causes huge pain to so many people. I'm just trying to give my view on why your WS struggles to break the bond. They're fighting against their own human animal instincts - much like someone who is physically addicted to a drug.

Needtomoveon I agree with you 100% on everything you said!!! I’m mebtally out of the fog. But not emotionally :-( I actually know I loved my AP, so that takes time to get over. As much as I know how awful it was.

Doglover84 - how long have you been out of the affair for? Do you also love your BS?

Talking about body chemical reactions in response to your choice to develop a relationship outside of your marriage sounds like minimization, or relieving some blame, to me. Maybe I’m reading your comment wrong.

Someone used a chocolate cake analogy earlier that I think was perfect. Sure, I biologically want to eat that cake even though I know it’s a breach of my diet. I eat it because it will feel good and I don’t care about the consequences in the moment. I may feel bad about myself later and even regret it. But under no circumstance was I not in control, in an altered state of mind.