SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Men Are from Mars, Women Are from Venus is a very good book to help both sexes understand how the other thinks and communicates. It might be a good book when trying to improve a marriage. But Fenderguy does not have a marriage problem right now, he's still has an infidelity problem that can only be fixed through acts of contrition, selflessness, and remorse from his WW.

I think if his wife would show him the remorse and empathy that he needs in the way that he needs it he seems like the kind of guy that could move forward out of infidelity and into fixing marriage communication problems.

I may be wrong but I don't think that he's mourning the lack of hot sex. I think that he's crying out for a connection to his wife through sex. And she, instead of being that source of healing, continues to demonstrate the same kind of rejection that he felt from the infidelity.

Anoldlion makes a good point, sort of the point I was trying to make, but he makes it better. Fender has both an infidelity problem and a marriage problem, which makes his decision path complicated.

For some reason, I do keep coming back to the notion we see here on SI a lot, which is that at some point for R to work the BH must be 100% both feet all the way in, meaning he must act like a husband in a marriage regardless of the infidelity. Acting like a husband in a marriage means, among other things, what Anoldlion describes.

So suppose you were to divorce and find a woman who "is hotter than a two dollar pistol" in bed. But out of bed she treats you like dirt. She doesn't care about how the house looks, doesn't cook, hates your family, spends your money like crazy, but she is just totally great in bed. Would you then think your present wife was so bad?

I'd say yes, she's still just as bad. And if he were to find a girl like you describe, then he just keeps on looking for a different girl. Why would he settle for a partial partner when he already had one before and it didn't work out?

I find what his W is doing to him sexually just so disrespectful, to give her AP the sex that he wants, but refuse it to him. It's totally emasculating and just plain fucked up.

at some point for R to work the BH must be 100% both feet all the way in, meaning he must act like a husband in a marriage regardless of the infidelity.

This is true, but it only works if the WW is 100% in as well. In this case, she's not.

Throwing pity/duty/emotionless sex at her BH is telling him that he's not worth the same effort that her AP was worth.

[This message edited by GoldenR at 5:57 AM, August 8th (Wednesday)]

I agree that, at some point, for R to move forward, the BS has to be all in.

The issue seems to be what that "point" is. We know that point is not day one. Maybe not day 90. Maybe not even day 360. What we have seen on SI is that the BS often reaches that all in "point" based in how quickly and fully the WS shows they are all in, shows remorse, stops the rejection. For a BS to move all in to R, they have to feel safe that the WS is all out of the infidelity behaviors that were unsafe.

It looks like what is in question is what must first happen in order for a BS to get to that "point". He is not reconciling with a mother and partner, he is reconciling the rejection and betrayals of his wife. To be able to get to that "point", for many BS's, it requires that the WS is first all with behaviors that the BS needs to see and experience.

As long as her rejection continues - it is rejection - he will likely not feel safe enough, which you need to be all in.

FG's situation and pain resonates with me as there are some elements of his story that align with mine. I was 95% there for being all in for quite a long time, and for a BS to get to that point means they have endured tremendous hardship, sacrifice, and trauma. If anything related to intimacy or sex rejection is a part of that last 5%, the final move to "all in" likely not happening. Rejection and sex are so deeply rooted in the infidelity behaviors that, if those still exist in any form, to be "all" in is too dangerous and too painful for many BS's.

My experience is that the WS must be the first to demonstrate being all in before the BS can feel safe to commit to being to that point. And, all in for the WS must be however the BS defines safe.

[This message edited by DIFM at 6:35 AM, August 8th (Wednesday)]

The bedrock conundrum here is her blanket statement that she has no libido nor desire for sex, at all, which is belied by her actions in the A. The only rational conclusion is that she does not desire sex with Fenderguy, but when he makes that point, she gets angry and defensive, or turns on the tears and tells him she will work to be the wife he deserves.

However, the cautionary point I've made I will stick to. Fenderguy has said something along these lines several times: "I'm a good man. I deserve a good sex life."

Gently, sex is not "If A=B and B=C, then A=C." Women are emotional creatures. They need to feel cherished and desired.

I used to tell myself exactly the same thing as Fenderguy. I earn a healthy income. I keep in decent shape. I'm reasonably good looking. I'm kind to animals and strangers. I don't spend our family money on myself. I spend my time outside of work doing honey-do's, or family stuff. I'm a pretty good musician and I play in rock bands. How cool is that? I'm witty. I can make people laugh and work a room. I'm the kind of guy that many women comment about to my wife: "I wish I had a husband like yours."

But still, I wasn't getting any sex at home. And my wife was saying the same thing Fenderguy's wife says: "I have no libido. Zero interest in sex."

Eventually I opened my eyes to the reality that she had no interest in sex with me, because I was showing no interest in her. Back to Anoldlion's point. Once I began showing my wife how much I actually do cherish her (and I do), the affection started coming back, then the sexy times. Butfor is a happy man.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 8:12 AM, August 8th (Wednesday)]

Women are emotional creatures. They need to feel cherished and desired.

I hate that. Woman are women...and everyone needs something different. And I wish men would stop spouting this idea.

IF your experience with your wife says she needs that then good for you giving her what she needs.

I dont need any of that to have sex...because I like sex. And its demeaning to call woman "emotional creatures" as if we are some unknown entity that has to be coddled.

Let me say this...men need to stop speaking for the sexuality of a woman. You only know the women you know...and I assure the other millions of us don't all need to feel "desired" in order to have sex. Stop speaking for us. Ask. Stop telling each other this stories as if they are facts. Stop believing books and podcasts about we want..and ask.

There are PLENTY of woman who have sex because they like...no need for an emotional connection. NO deep scares from childhood. NO low self-esteem. They enjoy sex. I enjoy sex...I made a vow to only have it with my husband.

Our sex life improved when I stopped buying into the bullshit notion that I needed to "earn" sex by being a good wife and mother. Or that I needed to "feel" all warm and fuzzy when I wanted. I wanted sex because I liked sex. I could have a quickie on the way out to work. I could screw him when I was mad and then send him to the sofa. I could have sex because I liked it and didnt need to check all this boxes before I allowed myself to enjoy it.

Women are people...and need different things. Stop with narrative that we are emotional and need to be emotionally stroked in taking our panties off. Its offensive and demeaning to reduce us to such simplistic terms when men have not had the opportunity to talk to all 1.5 million of us.

[This message edited by prissy4lyfe at 8:16 AM, August 8th (Wednesday)]

DIFM, His WW is not "all in" and until the WS is "all in" it's just not safe for a BS to be "all in" first!!! We have way too many BS's that were "all in" to be smashed again because the WS isn't. The WS's are the ones that HAVE to be "All in" first and for awhile for the BS to feel safe enough to re-commit.

Fenderguy, I'm very sorry but your wife isn't even giving you "duty sex" she is merely letting you masterbate with her vagina!!! TOTALLY NOT ACCEPTABLE!!! What she is doing is keeping you around for support and comfort while being less than even a FWB!!! She is a roomate willing to loan you her vagina for awhile, just don't expect ANYTHING MORE!!! This is NOT a marriage. YOU don't have a wife you have a Nanny/Housekeeper, who occasionally loans her VJJ for masterbation and that's all!

Seriously if you were single how long would this disrespect last before you told her to take a hike?? Would you/ should you accept this in ANY OTHER situation? NO, Then MAKE A MOVE!! This will last only as long as you allow it. Take control and FILE!!! Maybe she wakes up and if not you realise just how important you are to her, BUT you will be getting healthier!!

I am so sorry for your situation Fenderguy. My opinion is divorce her (maybe the actual paperwork will let her know that this behavior is NOT going to work) and find somebody that cares for you and wants to connect and actually relate with you!

There is absolutely NO feelings at all for you because she can see the pain you are in over this situation and just doesn't give a damn! She doesn't even qualify as a friend because even if there was no sex with a friend you would still have a warmer relationship with the friend that would sit and hold you than you currently have with your wife. This to me would be the ultimate deal breaker. She cheated and had sex with AP and all you get is a masturbatory tool!!!

YOU, sadly to say, are the posterboy for the entire column on "WW's putting more effort into the A" It is ok and you will see that it is a dealbreaker to a LOT of BH's.

JMO YMMV

You have a point, ButFor, however, being that she's a WW, I don't think at this point in R that she should be making a point with him sexually to deny him bc he needs to be a better H. Frankly, he is a much MUCH better H than she is a W. He didn't cheat. She should be banging his brains out for not dumping her.

Women are emotional creatures. They need to feel cherished and desired.

This describes men to a tee. When a wife cheats on her husband, his emotional need to feel cherished and desired are often dependent on his WW's ability to demonstrate that emotional connection through the sex she showed to her AP. We see over and over this very expression by many BH's. They need to make the emotional reconnection through sex.

When you are the betrayer, if you want to show you are all in for empathy and remorse, you need to commit to the making the needed emotional connection in the way that your BS needs to experience it.

I think I am the only WW posting on this thread.

I would say 95% of my reconciliation success so far has been because I have been able to show my husband that I desire him sexually and that I am enthusiastic about it. I initiate and enjoy sex with him and make sure that he knows that I make it my priority because I know it is important to him to feel loved, attractive, and wanted by me. He needs to feel like he can satisfy all of my needs, and give me pleasure and that I want to satisfy his with no boundaries. Part of a BH self esteem is very hurt after an affair, so it makes it even more important to show that sex is enjoyable and important.

That isn't to say some nights I don't fall asleep, or we don't have time or things don't go as planned. But I feel like it is a double slap in the face to reject your husband sexually after an affair.

DIFM, His WW is not "all in" and until the WS is "all in" it's just not safe for a BS to be "all in" first!!!

Yes, that is the point I was making. She is obviously not all in.

I think the difference between men and women in general (I know there are exceptions) make R difficult. I read the posts from BH’s and I see how my husband works toward R is exactly the way men would want the WW to react and I want him to be more like the BW wants the WH. I want emotional attachment and I get that but in bed he tells me he will do Anything I want. Anything. I’m not that creative. I love sex with him and I know for a healthy marriage I had to participate in sex not just as a duty. It was so hard to put aside the betrayal and mind movies but I had to in order to have a healthy relationship. I also know how hard it is to keep up that perfect wife and mom image. It’s exhausting. And especially when my child was young I didn’t have the sex drive. I didn’t ask or expect husband to help around the house. It didn’t mean I didn’t love it when he rarely did. I felt it was my responsibility and that he appreciated me for it. He complained about lack of sex but never asked why. I would tell him I’m tired or not feeling sexy or loved but he didn’t hear. But of course now I the table has turned since I am the BS. I think IC can help her. I went about the affair and my IC was terrible as far as that but she did help me recognize I’m not responsible for everyone and that I need to learn to let go. That it didn’t matter if Thanksgiving wasn’t perfect or the laundry was folded. I wish you the best regardless of what you decide.

.....I want him to be more like the BW wants the WH. I want emotional attachment and I get that but in bed he tells me he will do Anything I want. Anything.

Thanksgiving, if you want him to be more like the BW wants the WH to be, why don't you insist on that? It sounds like he prefers to give back the way he wants to give vs the way you need him to give. When he says to you he will do anything in bed, I am reading between the lines that that is not what you are asking him to give you.

What keeps you from insisting that he show you what you need the way you need it vs the way he wishes you needed it?

Fender are you still with us?

Having read this post from the start, I can see all the same issues myself - to be fair it's been going on for years in my own marriage! I was always the chaser and therefore it could be used as a controlling mechanism!! Now nearly 3 years from D Day, I'm getting the whole 'I've got a low libido' and using the menopause as an excuse but I wasn't having that and knew my wife had even researched it herself. She can justify anything by doing basic research but only looking for the reasons she wants, of course - that's not research, as we all know!

In the end we discussed an article which highlighted the real reasons, in our situation:

Lack of connection with your partner

Unresolved conflicts or fights

Poor communication of sexual needs and preferences

Trust issues

Having also just read an article about 'real remorse' in the reconciliation forum, I know we are not going forward, just chugging along' - it's no good for anyone, it's not a long term strategy and there's only one resolution! I'm going to show my wife the article next month on the 3 year anniversary - oh the joys! It's either going to kill it or make it - there's no point in being stuck, time is passing by and it's not fair on anyone!

I know it's difficult to express your needs but things have to be discussed and hopefully resolved but if that's not the case, everyone needs to look at themselves - not just now but also in the future! Hopium is a powerful drug but you have to be realistic and be aware of the needs of yourself and personal circumstances!

I know he just cant divorce her but I don't see how he will be able to stay with her knowing the truth. Its going to be a brutal time for him for sure if he does. If it was me I would be honest with her and tell her we don't have to divorce right away but there would be no way we would be living as a couple from this day forward. I would just set some ground rules up and tell her she needs to get serious on getting a full time job. She needs to understand this is a wall for him so she can either rethink this or she can start planning a future without him.

If he doesn't stand his ground he will only make it more difficult on himself.

I am not saying he should force her to have sex with him but what he should do is force her to take a hard look at what they both need to move forward as a married couple.

What Pinkpggy said was right on the spot.

Its not about just sex its about rebuilding a connection and making your partner feel loved wanted and desired. He as clearly does his part on her emotional needs she just needs a push to see what she really wants in her life now.

Fender, you still with us?

Damn, I didn't realize it had been over a weak since I posted in this thread. Life gets busy, time slips by. Thanks for all the good, kind words, as well as the 2x4's. It's all good and helpful!

So this weak has been somewhat strange. We have been getting along extremely well, it seems like we're both really making a strong effort to communicate with each other, be (non sexually) affectionate with each other, be kind to each other, etc. I have actually been trying to be a more attentive husband, as Butforthegrace has suggested. I feel like we've talked more in the past week than we have in years. I know, she's the WW... she should be kissing me ass, etc etc. And I'm not trying to NICE my wife back or anything like that. But it occurred to me that trying to be a better husband was the one thing I really hadn't been trying. I was adequate, but I would say I was kind of waiting for her to start kissing my ass (or penis).

We have had sex a few times in the last week. It's strange; we have been having passionate make out sessions that lead up to the sex, and then it's like she just skips a few chapters and wants to get right to the sex. She totally skips foreplay. She has put forth a little more effort into the actual act of having sex. She seems to be enjoying herself, even if it's not earth shattering sex. I really think she's trying as hard as she can. I don't really think it's an attraction thing, as her non sexual body language has been very intimate and affectionate. I think she really just has weird sexual aversions. Foreplay, Oral, etc are just things that she can't seem to bring herself to do.

I actually opened up to a few friends the other night, 2 males and 1 female. They all seemed absolutely dumbfounded at the idea of a woman who is not interested in foreplay. At first they all assumed I was just being lazy about it it. "Well, do YOU ever offer to go down on HER?" they asked skeptically. When I told them that she has refused that for years, despite my extreme willingness, they all seemed more than a little confused. These people don't know about the A.

So I don't know what that's about, but I feel like she is trying to show me through non sexual ways how attractive she finds me, and how much she loves me. And she seems to be trying to be sexual with me. It's been a few years, I'm not sure if either of us remember how to have really good sex anymore. She references times that were great for her, that for me were little more than me thrusting away until I came. Maybe she's just not very vocal about things? I really don't know.

She needs to see her doctor to discuss why she has no sex drive and what she can do about it. (There are LOTS of things that can be done about it if she WANTS to fix this VERY REAL problem.)

Maybe you can go to the doctor with her to discuss it.

She also needs to see an IC to find out specifically why she has no sex drive for you, her husband, yet had an A.

Perhaps you can eventually go to MC to find out why she has no sex drive in your marriage.

It is absolutely unfair for HER to decide FOR you what kind of very vanilla sex you are doomed to have for the rest of your life AND to decide FOR you how often you are able to get it.

Please don’t play the pick me dance. You don’t have to let her make all of the rules.

Maybe this bears repeating...