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Did you laugh when she offered that. Does she really think that's even remotely reasonable. My response would have been great when you need me on Mondays and through Friday call and leave a voicemail. I am sorry but I just cant tolerate you for more than five days a week. Don't worry other couples do this all the time. Oh yea and I expect breakfast in bed on the weekend at promptly 8am no later. If your late well then we might have to add Saturday to the list.

I would have flipped out. There is just no way I would do it. I would tell her I am sorry you feel that way but this isn't going to work out. I would thank her for being honest and I would let her know when I had the papers drawn up so she can go over them. I wouldn't talk about it a second longer unless she is sincerely willing to have a real change of heart.

I wish you the best in what ever you do. I just don't know how I would have handled that situation.

C

Fenderguy:

I am sorry to see that your WW is unable or unwilling to participate in a normal, satisfactory sex life with you. I have tried to keep up with this thread and perhaps I missed the conversation, but at one time you posted I believe that you had not had sex with your WW for one year after your DDay. Was that one year hiatus something again which your WW refused you, or was that more you just processing the hurt and anger of the A and not wanting it for that full year. I recall you struggled with this at the time and asked for help from those who had overcome their lack of sexual interest in their wives. Does this one year hiatus from sex, does this play in to the equation at all, for you or her. If you did not initiate for that year did she take that as a signal you weren’t interested. Is she retaliating now for being denied for the year? Or was it her refusing for the entire year? Sorry if this has been covered. What are your thoughts.

[This message edited by fareast at 6:50 PM, August 6th (Monday)]

I was in a sexless marriage for 10 long years. I know how painful it is. It's not "just sex" because that kind of rejection eventually permeates everything.

So, what is there to do? See a lawyer. See an IC. Start looking at apartments. Your MC wants you to focus on the future, so do that. One without your wife in it.

And do it without guilt. You have fully informed her of how you feel. You are both on the same page. If she isn't changing, it's on her. I'm sorry.

Yeah we went a year without see after DDAY. She basically tried to get me to have sex with her immediately after that day. I told her there was no way in hell. She kind of just didn’t press it for about 6 months, while I withdrew.

Eventually, I began to lose significant weight. I was starting to look good. My band was playing a gig at a local bar, and there was a woman there that was flirting with me, due no doubt to my guitar prowess! I was friendly but kind of brushed her off. My wife noticed, and cried a lot that night. She begged me to have sex with her that night, but I refused. She was afraid I was going to have an affair, I told her I was not interested. After that, she started asking incessantly about it. It became the main subject of our one sided MC sessions.

I finally gave in, because I realized I wasn’t doing anything to help the situation. The first time was very basic, I figured just because we hadn’t done it in so long. But to my somewhat surprise, we fell right back into the same old routine from before the A. I think th fact that I had sex with her solidified in her mind that I had forgiven the A, and that all was returning to normal.

Butforthegrace, are you me from the future? Your story sounds identical to mine. From sex habits, to family dynamic, to even porn viewing habits. Your story fills me some hope, but at this point the situation seems most hopeless.

People, it’s not as simple as just “Get a divorce and get an apartment.” I can’t give away too much personal info, but let’s just say my house and the land it sits on has been in family for 80 years. My Grandfather was raised here. It’s not that simple. I can’t just kick her out. As the mother of my children, I need to ensure that if we were to separate, they would have a decent place to live and be well cared for when they weren’t on my watch. For reasons I can’t specifically go into for anonymity, my wife won’t be able to have a full time career until about a year from now. She works part time now while she’s beginning her final year of school. If she were to leave now, she would be forced to live with her parents, along with my kids half the time at least. There’s no way I will let that happen to my kids, her parents are entirely dysfunctional.

So as far as I’m concerned, the word “Divorce” cannot even be uttered for another year. I’m sure I’ll change my mind a thousand times in that year. I don’t consider it wasting a year of my life, though. I’ll get some good times with my kids, work on improving myself, etc. I may even have some good times with my wife, but not sexual.

Butforthegrace and your situation is different

He has a W

And

Fenderguy you have a WW.

I hope you understand.

I completely understand the W/WW thing. Like I said in my post, I was very low at points during the sexless part of my M and I don't know if I could have overcome the trauma and emasculation of an A. It was a real possibility. There was an asshole orbiting my W, a man of "idle rich" means, very much akin to the asshole in Mrs. Walloped's story, a man whose hobby was married women disaffected from their husbands. My wife circled his flame for a minute. Fortunately she caught wind of his crass braggadocio around the country club bar concerning some of his prior conquests (including sharing tawdry lingerie photos of some WW's that he had on his cell phone) and snapped out of her nascent fog. Hence my SI name.

As to turning my M around, my epiphany came when I admitted to myself that I was "phoning it in" to some extent in terms of my engagement with my W. I wasn't giving her all of me, including my attention to her essence.

Let's be real for a moment. A gentle 2x4 from a fellow axeman. Your WW didn't get with that asshole because he could talk to her about Nietzsche. She got with him because he listened to her when she talked about Nietzsche. Or at least he pretended to listen to her and he was convincing enough with that charade that she thought he was listening. We now know that he was a lying asshole who played multiple women, including your WW and his own BOW. Any rational person would see through his bullshit in a flash. How desperately must your WW have wanted somebody to listen to her when she talked about Nietzsche that she fell for his crap? As you mention, she is a sentient, intelligent, social woman. Yet she was desperate enough to become irrational. In her soul, she was thirsty, my friend. I think she still is. You're in a position to slake that thirst, but you won't do it if you keep doing what you're doing. I'm not saying this to excuse her A. That was a fucked up thing to do and she needs to help you heal from that regardless. I'm saying this because I feel in your posts that you are sort of past the A and are at a place where you are wondering if it is possible to make the marriage better. I'm here to tell you this is possible to do, but it takes effort on both sides.

In my case, I literally slaked my W's thirst. First step was to figure out the specific kind of tea my wife loved in the morning. This meant I had to talk to her and listen to her. Perfecting the tea meant experimenting with different mixes of tea leaves and such. Once I got it down, I make her tea every morning, 7 days a week, 365 days a year, and place it on her bedside table to drink when she wakes. Every morning, without fail unless I'm gone on business. I'm constantly working with her to tweak the mix, experimenting with chai spices (some of which I grind myself by hand), etc.

Then I started listening to her on other things, one at a time, learning who she was and what she liked.

Dude, last night I enjoyed most of the things men fantasize about in terms of enjoying a woman. With my wife in actual physical real life (as opposed to Rosie and a Pornhub clip) (and for me the wife in real life is a million times better than Rosie/Pornhub). It was only 2 days after having previously enjoyed the same thing. Just saying.

They say that for R to succeed, both the WW and the BH have to be 100% both-feet-in. This is where the rubber meets the road on that bit. Part of the shit sandwich served to the BH is figuring out how to make the heart open and vulnerable despite the trauma and emasculation of the A.

It only works if you truly love her, knowing all of her flaws, including the fact that she fell for some asshole's line of bullshit and ended up fucking him. You can't fake that kind of love. You either have it, or you don't. You need to look into your heart to figure that bit out first.

Here is a story. When I was single and dating, I stumbled across this smoking hot young woman who agreed to accompany me to hear a band (friends of mine) at a club. During the evening, she explained to me that she was morally opposed to killing animals because it was cruel. She said this as she ate a burger and wore a leather jacket. Complete new-age airhead bimbo. But you know what I did? I smiled and spoke in agreement and understanding, and I concealed my contempt long enough to enjoy some mattress time with her corpus delectable. In a room filled with cats. I'm allergic to cats. Thank goodness for the emergency Sudafed in my pocket, along with the pack of condoms.

Single guys do that. So do guys like the POSOM who troll married women. When a man meets a woman for whom he has true affinity and respect and attraction, that is when he feels like he could marry her, because he won't have to hold his nose and pretend to be okay with a woman who spews vacuous bullshit just for an opportunity to taste the inside of the panties.

I'm assuming that is your wife. In your posts I can hear that you hold her in high regard even still. If a single guy like me can fake it for a week or two with a woman he affirmatively holds in contempt in order to taste the panties, a husband who truly loves his wife can figure out how to restart that "fascinating new thing" feeling he had for her when they were courting. The beginner's mind and all that. Find that place in your heart, the place you inhabited the day you asked her to marry you. When you were in that place, I guarantee she felt you were, among other things, listening to her with intent and interest. Learn to inhabit that place. She will feel it.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 9:06 AM, August 7th (Tuesday)]

From what you've said, it appears that your WW is content with the state of the M as it is. It's too bad you are unable to move for D at this time because it might be the thing that wakes her up enough to work on her issues and attitude.

It bears repeating that you can only work on you.

So do that.

Why not take up her suggestion and get some IC? This relationship is an emotionally damaging one to you.

You will want to have something prepared to say when she realizes that you are done with the sexual scraps. She's probably going to react think about how to manage that. Heck you can try the "tea" suggestion if that helps keep the peace. Internally, though, practice detachment. It can be done in a considerate manner. Go for that.

Let's be real for a moment. A gentle 2x4 from a fellow axeman. Your WW didn't get with that asshole because he could talk to her about Nietzsche. She got with him because he listened to her when she talked about Nietzsche. Or at least he pretended to listen to her and he was convincing enough with that charade that she thought he was listening. We now know that he was a lying asshole who played multiple women, including your WW and his own BOW. Any rational person would see through his bullshit in a flash. How desperately must your WW have wanted somebody to listen to her when she talked about Nietzsche that she fell for his crap? As you mention, she is a sentient, intelligent, social woman. Yet she was desperate enough to become irrational. In her soul, she was thirsty, my friend. I think she still is. You're in a position to slake that thirst, but you won't do it if you keep doing what you're doing.

In my case, I literally slaked my W's thirst. First step was to figure out the specific kind of tea my wife loved in the morning. This meant I had to talk to her and listen to her. Perfecting the tea meant experimenting with different mixes of tea leaves and such. Once I got it down, I make her tea every morning, 7 days a week, 365 days a year, and place it on her bedside table to drink when she wakes. Every morning, without fail unless I'm gone on business. I'm constantly working with her to tweak the mix, experimenting with chai spices (some of which I grind myself by hand), etc.

Perfect example of telling a BS it's their fault for the A, and that you should try to nice the WS back.

Good luck with that.

It's true, I could be more engaged with my wife. The problem is that when talking about things like philosophy, social issues, religion, politics, etc, my eyes just glaze over and my brain goes into auto pilot. I try to be a good listener, I really do. But maybe I have gone on autopilot with her a little too much. Maybe I should take a page from the AP's book and play my own wife! Take an interest in what she's interested in. I probably pretended to be somebody I wasn't in order to get my wife in the sack, and then as the years went by she realized that wasn't me at all!

Like you BFTG, I contorted myself into many different people in my late teens-mid 20's in my quests to get laid. I once dated a girl whom I absolutely LOATHED! She was a self centered asshole. I knew this, and I still dated her/pretended to like her for 2 months. Why? Because she was a willing sex partner and she had a nice rack. I listened to her bitch about her family/friends all night, and watched her be rude to waitresses etc, just to get laid. Eventually, I just stopped calling / answering. Point is, I get how guys like her AP act, but this guy clearly took it to a new level.

I'm not going to NICE my wife back into loving me. I'm sure that won't work. I basically have a year to decide what to do. I don't really want to divorce her, but she has made it clear that she is not interested in participating in our sex life. My goal is to just play it cool, and try not to have an A myself. Last night I had a dream about one of my kid's school teachers giving me a lap dance... so basically, my subconscious is horny! She is an attractive woman, one who I respect and would never sexualize in real life, so I was surprised to have that dream!

[This message edited by Fenderguy at 9:17 AM, August 7th (Tuesday)]

You don't have to divorce and get an apartment today, but start to focus on that future. You're already planning it. Have some fun with it. Having fun, yet responsible, plans will keep those sexpot dreams from overcoming your waking senses.

It's not about "nicing" your W back into loving you. It is about finding your love for her and communicating that to her. You don't have to be nice to her. You have to see her.

It's not about being interested in Nietzsche. It's about being interested in the fact that she is interested in Nietzsche. What is it about Nietzsche that she resonates with, and why? If you're actually interested in her as a person, you don't need to really know anything about Nietzsche at all. You simply ask her questions about her feelings and beliefs about Nietzsche, because you are interested in learning about her.

I have a good buddy from way back. He is way in love with song writing. I'm a musician too. My buddy is passionate about his song writing. I happen to think that his song writing isn't very strong, but I do appreciate his passion and drive for song writing and therefore don't mind spending the occasional evening being the listening board for his new material. I ask him about the life experience that motivated a particular song, etc. Sometimes I suggest a chord substitution or a fingering alternative. I happen to know about music so I can do that, but I could be his sounding board even without knowing about music if I were simply a good listener.

I don't serve my wife her morning tea to "nice" her back. I do most of the cooking in our family. The food part is my thing. I make breakfast for the family most days. The interesting part for me has been learning the kind of tea she likes. Listening to her likes/dislikes, as opposed to what I used to do, which was make the tea the way I like to make it, or the way I thought was the best tea. It was the process of listening to her and processing that got me started in terms of actually seeing her.

The problem is that when talking about things like philosophy, social issues, religion, politics, etc, my eyes just glaze over and my brain goes into auto pilot. I try to be a good listener, I really do. But maybe I have gone on autopilot with her a little too much.

People change and evolve over time, and their interests and passions change and evolve along with them. When married, we can choose to see this as an opportunity to continually "meet" somebody new, and learn about them, or we can drift apart. It is a choice each married person makes. My wife isn't into music like I am, but I have found that as I have invested more into knowing her, listening to her passions, she has also started doing the same for me. On her own, she got tix to a rock band that I like a lot, a young band not very well known. She only knew about them because she heard me talking about them.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 9:58 AM, August 7th (Tuesday)]

You can justify it all you want, but your last two posts reek of the pick me dance. You describe (your?) the WW as the damsel who was just over smitten by the guy who did X for her. She was just overpowered by it.

And you didn't do X, so now you are.

Do you really think you are "affair proofing" your marriage by paying more attention to her needs? (Hint: Cheaters love the extra attention, and *more* is never enough).

You're new at this game, so let me just ask you this:

What has she done to "get to know you better?"

Ask yourself this:

Since it was your wife who (almost?) crossed the line, why are you putting in all the effort?

[This message edited by WornDown at 11:36 AM, August 7th (Tuesday)]

(almost?)

Huh?

Huh?

I don't know Butfor's story, but he wrote this:

Fortunately she caught wind of his crass braggadocio around the country club bar concerning some of his prior conquests (including sharing tawdry lingerie photos of some WW's that he had on his cell phone) and snapped out of her nascent fog. Hence my SI name.

So, I don't know if/what lines she crossed.

Do you really think you are "affair proofing" your marriage by paying more attention to her needs? (Hint: Cheaters love the extra attention, and *more* is never enough).

I think you are off base I am not a cheater. My wh has been doing the exact type of things outlined by BFTG, it works. I feel like a woman and not just the nanny and servant in the home. It is wonderful to have my spouse interested in me. He isn’t doing this for sex. I have a way higher sex drive than him. He is doing it because it’s the right thing to do in a marriage. It keeps a connection. This is what love should be. And as the receiver it feels so amazing!

He isn’t doing this for sex.... He is doing it because it’s the right thing to do in a marriage. It keeps a connection. This is what love should be.

Exactly. What I am discussing is a marriage thing, not an R thing. It's not about "affair-proofing" (indeed based on what I've read here at SI no marriage is affair-proof). It's not about "nicing her back to me."

It's about keeping the marriage alive and vital. It's about finding those feelings I had when I asked her to marry me in the first place. Life is hard and there is an insidious tendency for spouses to drift into complacency, then distance. One day they wake up and look at their spouse as if he/she is almost a complete stranger.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 1:43 PM, August 7th (Tuesday)]

Last night a thought occurred to me, and now I can’t get it out of my head. Could she be having another affair RIGHT NOW??? Maybe the reason she’ll only give me basic duty sex is because AP gets the good stuff? I have zero proof of this, but she has certainly shown herself to be capable. I’m not a husband who keeps tabs on her all day. She has plenty of time and opportunity while I’m at work. Kids are still on summer break, but if there’s a will there’s a way.

Something else to consider... hopefully not obsess over.

Life is hard and there is an insidious tendency for spouses to drift into complacency, then distance. One day they wake up and look at their spouse as if he/she is almost a complete stranger.

And a stranger to themselves. I had this image of myself of being driven and dynamic. Yes once upon a time I was. I wasn’t getting the continued education type classes my husband was receiving through work. I wasn’t t on corporate jets flying to 1000 dollar plate dinners. My life was wiping butts, singing nursery rhymes, pushing a jogging stroller. I had to come to terms I wasn’t dimensional anymore. No one cares about potty training unless that person is doing it.

I was teaching myself to sew. Making clothes and home ideas. Painting, decorating, refinishing furniture. These are all things my husband placed 0 value on and never gave two flying fingers about. Zero interest. I stopped showing him my projects. He didn’t care.

Now he shows an interest. He askes specific question relating to what I do. Does he really care if I used a dark wax or a glaze on a piece of furniture? No. He doesn’t. What he has discovered is my smile and joy in my art. Recognizing it’s a release and a passion for me. Down to seeing a certain paint brush for furniture finishing while he is out and bringing it home for me to try.

Growing up and realizing not being a selfish jerk benefits me!

[This message edited by Iwantmyglasses at 2:09 PM, August 7th (Tuesday)]

Fender,

I will admit...I thought that exact same thing as I was reading your post when she said. You need IC.

I didn’t want to post it because, I didn’t want to start a rabbit hole.