SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

It was a good one. It summed up my married sex life very well.

WH and Iwere discussing feminism this morning. I was onanother site and it was asked ‘why do men support more feminism for their daughters than their wives?’. Which is a great question, TBH.

So I shared this with WH and he said he always did support me and my rights in society. My reply was ‘you didn’t in our marriage. I was there.’ And he got all pissy, saying I was wrong.

Dude, you made me feel like a whore, and I told you for years. How is that supporting my rights? Lol His compartmentalism is real, y’all...

The thread was actually about sexual coercion after infidelity, with D being the threat.

In your marriage, I'm all for you taking a stand on what you would not like to do with your H. The tipping point would be if you cheated and did those previously objectionable things with your AP, yet you had told your spouse they were off limits.

One poster in the recent thread captured it well. You need to define feminism. If it's "equal rights for men and women", then yes, I support that for my wife and daughter. If it's "preferential treatment towards women" (especially in the case of D) well.. As terrible as this sounds, I might support that for my daughter (because I want the best for her) but would not for my W (because it comes directly at my expense). I know that sounds incredibly selfish, and, in a lot of ways it is, but we all want the best for our kids, even if that desire leads to unequal opportunity for others.

"Equal opportunity" feminism seems to have reached their goal; perhaps others see it differently, but to me it appears that men/women have equal opportunity to succeed professionally in society (perhaps slated a bit towards women because of hiring preferences, but, given that it was slanted WAY towards men for a long time, perhaps this boost is helpful to establish a new balance). I've been told, when interviewing candidates (by my boss), "hey RIO, I know you a bunch of good candidates, we REALLY need some more women on the team, so if there's a tie".

I think the problem for a lot of movements, feminism included, is that once you reach your initial goal, one of two things has to happen. Your movement ends (because you got what you wanted) or you radicalize (keep the movement alive by pushing for more, beyond your initial objectives). Sadly, I think that that's what happened in a lot of 3rd wave feminism. Just IMHO, of course, and, as a man, I can not in any way see the real slights that continue for women, so take that all with a grain of sand.

The thread was actually about sexual coercion after infidelity, with D being the threat.

In your marriage, I'm all for you taking a stand on what you would not like to do with your H. The tipping point would be if you cheated and did those previously objectionable things with your AP, yet you had told your spouse they were off limits.

No, it isnt that thread. It was a much older one, created before I arrived.

Feminism, IMO, isn’t preferential treatment of women, or men for that matter. It’s that all are treated equally. Not a hard reach.

And yes, I think you may want to reframe what your wife deserves in your relationship. I don’t know who is who in your marriage, if you are the W or if she is. It’s also wuite possible that what you may be teaching your daughters is that its ok to have a spouse that treats you less. Said gently and with no malice.

I say this because I myself wonder what subconscious framework i am teaching my daughters by staying with their father.

And feminism isn’t nearly over, btw.

And feminism isn’t nearly over, btw.

Just curious, what's missing? What battle has yet to be fought for equality (not superiority) over men? I'm honestly very interested in this because I think that my view is slanted as a man, from my perspective, it looks like we are the "oppressed" class now, so I'd like to see the other point of view on it.

If it's "equal rights for men and women", then yes, I support that for my wife and daughter. If it's "preferential treatment towards women" (especially in the case of D)

Equal rights for men and women would be my definition. Preferential treatment toward women, imo, is not feminism. It's sexism.

I've heard guys say that feminism comes at the expense of men's rights. That alarms me. It shouldn't. Those situations are important to change - it shouldn't come at anyone's expense. It also doesn't justify tearing down an entire movement when there are so many ways women still need help. Women and men both need help in overcoming different inequalities.

Just curious, what's missing?

Well, there are more women living in poverty than men in the U.S. There is still a pay gap in most job sectors, with women making less than men, which really doesn't help the poverty situation. Of all the domestic homicides, 3/4 of the murder victims are women and 1/4 of the murder victims are men. Which means that all those women who are saying they're survivors of abuse aren't all liars.

The problem is, when a person talks about their struggles and the way that sexism (for either gender) in the system hurts them, the discussion tends to get promptly derailed into how much the same system victimizes the opposite gender, and how one gender's rights is trampling the other's, and then it quickly becomes the Pain Olympics, and everyone leaves more hurt and confused. We need to be each others' allies.

And that's all I'm going to say for today.

[This message edited by silverhopes at 8:59 AM, August 6th (Monday)]

I believe in equality and while we are mostly there, we aren't there yet. Dads need a paid family leave when the kids are born.

One of the things that is hard for me is women taking drugs to alter their hormonal balance. No one wants to admit it but a lifetime of this raises the risk of problems later. It does treat some problems too but most women would be healthier without it. I have heard from so many women who endure mood and physical problems and yet feel obligated to keep taking the drugs because they are responsible. Men never have to face this. Abortion is another awful reality for women and makes the contraception drugs pale by comparison. There are no good answers for people today.

When they reach transition, it's another set of physical symptoms. Some feel devalued and cast aside. I know this happens to some men but for women, it's a common experience. People running to get fillers, botox, surgery, implants, just to feel ok. Makes me sad.

I like guys. They make the world a great place to be. I wish they understood us more. During the final week of building up tissue in a reproductive cycle is the body energy equivalent of a week of construction work. Pregnancy is even more energy. Women are expending energy all the time just being. We are emotional and have emotional needs. I think that is a big disconnect. Women are doing so much and feeling like no one knows what is really happening with them on an inner level.

I think older people are getting the raw deal in society. Older people rock! They have so much to give. What we need to work on is better health so we can enjoy those later years. Once you get older things start to get clearer, you know who you are. I would hope by then we can know what life is and appreciate each other for the things that really matter.

Just curious, what's missing? What battle has yet to be fought for equality (not superiority) over men? I'm honestly very interested in this because I think that my view is slanted as a man, from my perspective, it looks like we are the "oppressed" class now, so I'd like to see the other point of view on it.

Do you get catcalled and harassed by women on the street? Do you walk to your car in the parking lot or on your way home late at night with keys in your hand, or an umbrella, or some other item so that if a woman approaches you in a threatening manner you have some sort of a weapon to protect yourself? Have you ever been followed by a woman that won't leave you alone, and won't take "I'm not interested," as an answer, to the point where you had to run into a public place in hopes that they would either finally leave you alone or someone would step in and help you?

And this is hard to reverse genders without sounding silly, but when I had my first baby at 22 (this was within the last decade), my ob/gyn 1. refused to believe that my episiotomy was healing incorrectly and told me I was just being a baby because this was my first child and I needed to toughen up -- I had to get a second opinion to find out that nope, I wasn't healing right and I needed a second procedure to fix what he stitched incorrectly. 2. He told me husband at our first follow up appointment, "I hope you're not getting up with the baby at night -- that's women's work." 3. Commented on my body and weight loss and said, "I don't know why women wait so long to have babies. You're young, and look how quickly your body bounced back. Your body looks great."

Do you have children? If you have both boys/girls, would you give them the same advice about what they wear/going out late/watching their alcohol? And not just drinking too much, but actually watching their drinks to make sure that no one drugs it?

I believe in equality and while we are mostly there, we aren't there yet. Dads need a paid family leave when the kids are born.

THIS IS SO IMPORTANT!!!!! Paid family leave, not just maternity leave. I'm in the US, so both moms and dads are SOL when it comes to leave, but it should NOT just be maternity leave.

Yes, women absolutely need time off to recover from birth and bond with their babies, but you're selling dads short if you don't rhink it's important for dads to have paid leave, too. Babies shouldn't just be considered "women's work," or the mom's responsibility. Dads need time to bond with their babies, too!

Do you get catcalled and harassed by women on the street?

Yes, I have. No, it's not common at all. So I think this is more a female than male problem and would agree that this could be upsetting for some.

Do you walk to your car in the parking lot or on your way home late at night with keys in your hand, or an umbrella, or some other item so that if a woman approaches you in a threatening manner you have some sort of a weapon to protect yourself?

No, I carry a gun. But the reason I carry that gun is because if someone, a man or a woman approaches me in a threatening manner I have a way to definitively protect myself. Personal responsibility and accountability. Sure, I'd love it if this wasn't how the world is, but sadly, this is reality for many of us. I've also been jumped twice for "being white in the wrong neighborhood". One time requiring a trip to the hospital.

Have you ever been followed by a woman that won't leave you alone, and won't take "I'm not interested," as an answer, to the point where you had to run into a public place in hopes that they would either finally leave you alone or someone would step in and help you?

Yes, I've been harassed by a woman before. I've been grabbed in public and eye f**ked pretty seriously before. It stopped when I stopped hanging out in places where that was acceptable (clubs/bars). I never worried that someone would need to help me though.

Do you have children? If you have both boys/girls, would you give them the same advice about what they wear/going out late/watching their alcohol? And not just drinking too much, but actually watching their drinks to make sure that no one drugs it?

I would tell them to avoid late night bars and that very little good happens there unless they are looking for NSA sex. I'd tell them to avoid drugs, and not to put themselves in situations where drugs were present and could be introduced to their drinks. And I'd stress to a girl that the vast majority of men she meets are only talking to her because they want to sleep with her, and to take that into account and try to build friendships with women rather than men.

[This message edited by Rideitout at 10:12 AM, August 6th (Monday)]

It stopped when I stopped hanging out in places where that was acceptable (clubs/bars).

I am glad that they stopped harassing you. It is absolutely wrong that any of them harassed you to begin with.

I wanted to address something you said, about "stop hanging out in places where this is acceptable". The problem is, we get that walking down the street on a daily basis. If you're curious, google "dads react to their daughters being catcalled" or "male actor dresses as woman to experience sexual harassment". Also, consider that for many of us, it starts very young. Like, in our teens or preteens. We're not in the clubs or bars when we learn these lessons - we're walking down the street, or at school, or at a volunteer opportunity, or on the bus, or in the library, or the grocery store... And we're not talking people our age, we're talking people 10, 20, 30 years older than us.

Also, as a mother of a young boy myself, I am equally vigilant to warn him about strangers as I would be if I had a daughter. There are a sickening number of children who are kidnapped, and though I haven't read statistics yet (honestly, I don't know if I would have the stomach for them ) I suspect that boys and girls are probably kidnapped at similar rates. It terrifies me. I am as afraid and protective of my son as I would be of a girl. And, if I had a daughter, I would be equally focused on her treating others well as I am with my son. I've told my son not to hit. I've also told him that no one's allowed to hit him - or, more specifically, that he and the girl he has a crush on aren't allowed to hit each other (they both have) or hurt each other.

But back to the original topic: I would love to see that thread too. How long ago did you see it on here, Frankiesbeads?

Silverhopes, it was at least a year. I don’t even recall the title. I just recall that it was informative and it had essentially put a name on how my WH made me feels during our marriage.

It was about boundary stomping and not respecting a womans ‘no’.

Also, I didn’t want this thread to turn into a feminism debate, but it seems to have.

Rideitout you cannot seriously believe that men “are the oppressed class now”. That is ridiculous. I fear this discussion can be too political so I’ll be cautious.

There is a LOT missing & it’s far from over. Ridiculous pay gaps for the same job? Not sure where you live, but just 1 example in the UK is that tampons are classed as a ‘luxury item’ so we have to pay tax on them. Upskirting was made illegal only about 2 months ago. That’s just the UK, all over the world women are still very much oppressed, and a real feminist should understand that their fight is our fight- so it’s far form over.

Lastly, I appreciate your acknowledgment that you don’t understand the experience of being a woman and eagerness to see or point of view. Unfortunately I don’t think I can adequately describe what it feels like to be afraid of being assaulted or raped. Every. Single. Day. I imagine it would be like you going back to the neighbourhood you were jumped in and feeling that fear everyday. Except for me, I would rather be murdered than raped and I’ve spoken to a lot of women who feel the same. That’s the worst thing that can happen to me. Many days I chose to wear jeans or shorts instead of dresses or skirts even though I know that wouldn’t stop me from being raped. But just maybe it would make it that much harder for an atracker, long enough for someone to help me. I know that’s sounds stupid but I think about this when getting dressed & I just have to do it. The advantage of this is that maybe by not showing my legs, I won’t be attacked then told it’s my fault for wearing something revealing. Even though I know logically it’s not my fault. If someone can’t restrain themselves from cat calling or harassing or assaulting or raping me, that’s not my fault. It’s not that hard to not violate someone.

We should probably take this discussion elsewhere, but, yes, in a lot of way (not ALL, but quite a few) ways I do feel men are a more oppressed class than women in much of the western world. I hesitate to use the word "oppressed" because that's not really the right term, "disadvantaged" is probably more accurate. I'm not sure what the "tampon tax" (which is sales or VAT on tampons, correct?) has to do with equal pay for the same job, but yes, I stand by that statement, I've been in "corporate America" for a long time now, quite a few years as a hiring manager, and I can tell you, there aren't two pay scales. There's a range we'll pay for a position, and we offer based on the candidates previous salary, expectations, qualifications and likelyhood that they will accept. Perhaps women are more likely to accept a lower offer, but it's certainly not a systemic "oh, it's a girl, offer less". In fact, in my company, I have nothing to do with the salary offers anymore, that's all done by HR, which, as in most companies, is both run by and nearly entirely female. So if there's a gender bias in salary (at least in my company) it's a woman who's doing it to other women.

You don't need to describe the fear of being assaulted, I think a lot of men live with that fear too. Sadly, if you live in those areas, the answer is "move" or "get a gun". I did both, and that's pretty much removed any fear of an assault going forward, if someone tries it, one of us is going to die and I live in an area now where it's very unlikely. But I do understand the fear, which is why I stopped living and going to areas where "being white" was a good enough reason to be assaulted. Should certain areas of certain cities be "off limits" for me? Of course not, but they are, sadly, and that's just the way of the world.

Dude, you made me feel like a whore, and I told you for years. How is that supporting my rights? Lol His compartmentalism is real, y’all...

I guess I don't see where his actions impacting your feelings equates to your legal rights. Can you explain this for me?

(I promise I'm not a complete idiot about other things.)

Feminine hygiene products are not subject to a “luxury tax” in any jurisdiction. Rather, many jurisdictions that levy value added taxes have not exempted such items from the VAT normally due on nearly all consumer items. Couching it as a “luxury tax” is a deceptive argument. Although I agree with your proposition that feminine products should be VAT (and sales tax) exempt, as should medicine and basic foodstuffs.

As to the threat of sexual coercion, no amount of feminism or lawmaking or re-education will ever solve it. Male predators have and will always exist despite the fact that their own mothers presumably taught them otherwise. Such are best addressed the great equalizer between those of disparate strength: Firearms. I took my daughters shooting last weekend. I aim to make sure they can protect themselves when matters cannot be resolved peaceably or through police intervention.

"Equal opportunity" feminism seems to have reached their goal; perhaps others see it differently, but to me it appears that men/women have equal opportunity to succeed professionally in society (perhaps slated a bit towards women because of hiring preferences, but, given that it was slanted WAY towards men for a long time, perhaps this boost is helpful to establish a new balance).

A good chunk of modern "feminists" (the far left in general), don't want equal opportunity, they want equal outcomes. Big difference.

[This message edited by WornDown at 8:56 PM, August 7th (Tuesday)]

It’s that all are treated equally. Not a hard reach.

Frankiesbeads it really is just that simple.I will never get why it gets twisted into something ugly and entitled.

I hope you do find the thread it sounds interesting.

Y'all going to open doors for us?

Pull our chairs out when we go to sit down?

Pick up the check?

Kill the spiders? Roaches?

Check out the strange noise in the middle of the night?

Y'all going to move the heavy couches/furniture until the room is just right?

That would be treating both sexes equally!

[Before y'all go throwing rocks, I'm joking. Mostly. There are something s women just expect guys to do, and vice versa. We are different after all]

[This message edited by WornDown at 10:48 PM, August 7th (Tuesday)]