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At what point do you say no more slashing and knifing? When do you ask to just move forward in you reconciliation and stop tolerating the abuse that you have unwittingly invited as a WW I understand there is a certain amount of backlash you will endure? But at what point can you ask for it to to stop and the focus move to a true forward movement and not just constantly being bereated and mimicked? How long does this last because I know I didn’t do this to my WH when he cheated. But this seems to be his go to. Will it always go back and forth? I had no desire to throw anything he did in his face yet he seems to live for this. He’s only happy if he’s making my heart bleed :(

Hi Gravycake,

I know how hard it is to bear this. Under just about any other circumstance it would have been completely intolerable. I guess the first thing I would want to mention is that you shouldn't compare your pain and reaction to his. Being betrayed effects people differently, more specifically the trauma and grief. I for one didn't know exactly how my H would react but I wouldn't say I unwittingly invited this into my life, kwim? I knew it would hurt him and that he'd be royally pissed. I wouldn't have spent the time hiding my A otherwise.

When my Hs rage hit, I just understood that under these circumstances I wouldn't claim abuse, and even more the rage was an expected reaction. Didn't mean it hurt any less or that it was okay, just that the normal line was blurred. And here's the thing not one time did I "have" to accept it. You're free to ask of him anything you want. No one says you can't. If you want to ask him to step out of his rage and to stop the backlash you can do that.

But I seriously doubt it will shift the focus to your desired result. In fact, I think it might backfire. You're ready to move forward and he's still deep in his pain. You asked how long it will last, I guess I wonder how long it has been going on and to what extent? Mimicking is pretty self explanatory but how would you describe the berating? I think it would help if you described the abuse in more detail.

I quickly glanced at some of your previous posts and it seems like your relationship with your H has been marred by infidelity for much of it. I don’t know how long it’s been since DDay but IMO that kind of behavior becomes counter productive very quickly. Did your H ever seek IC for his issues?

IMO, at some point the jabs and barbs need to stop and an ernest effort towards healing has to start if R is the goal. Otherwise this pattern is likely to continue until one of you finally pulls the plug.

I'm at 20 months out and it's still going on.

I'm glad you posted this with the "stop" sign because otherwise I'd not have responded. It can be difficult to share on a topic like this because you can quickly be attacked by betrayed spouses for trying to be a victim or trying to get sympathy points. Some waywards can do that too, but I can take it from them.

That being said, I will say that was one of the more difficult problems we faced in our R attempt. I won't say that it was the primary cause of the failure of our R, but it certainly didn't help. While we were in MC, BS refused to go to IC. She felt she didn't need it, that she could handle her anger on her own. She couldn't (and she still is struggling, even though I'm no longer around). I tolerated the rage episodes for a long time, even the ones that turned in to physical abuse. Essentially chasing me around the house throwing fists and kicks. I took it for a long time because I felt like I deserved it. But it just broke me emotionally. We were supposed to be sharing our feelings and being 100% honest with each other, but I began to fear her and so I started holding back emotionally, which was counterproductive. As heart wrenching as it was to have her tell me she wanted out a month ago, I now look back and realize that if I'd been a month longer in to that environment I might well be the one giving up at this point. There is only so much you can take, there is only so much you deserve.

At some point you have to draw that line in the sand and say, "dammit, I deserve to be treated like a human being. Yes, you're right, I treated you like shit, and I accept full responsibility for that, but we're never going to recover if this keeps up." It's very hard to make that stand with your BS, because there's a big part of us waywards that feels like we deserve it. And there's also the fear that standing up for yourself like that could be the final straw that ends the relationship. But at some point you'll need to take that chance. Where that line is for you is going to be different than where mine was. My line was when the outbursts and physical abuse started happening in front of (or within ear shot) of our young children. She was creeping very close to that line when she suddenly decided she was done. I still hold out faint hope that some day we might rediscover each other again, but if not I'll likely look back some day and feel some measure of gratitude that she broke the cycle before I had to.

[This message edited by AshamedDad at 9:38 AM, October 31st (Wednesday)]

Hello gravy, I’m sorry that you are having a rough time right now. The anger is hard to take at times but keep in mind that anger is understandable 2 yrs even 5 yrs out. I would say that no one here expects you to be perfect and not respond to anger with anger at times but it might help if you try to see the anger as hurt. You have hurt your BS on a level that’s life changing and soul crushing. Taking some rude comments or mean spirited remarks is only a small part of what you’ll need to do for your BS, try to remember and see it as a service to their pain. Your situation is unique with the mad hatter aspect, but everyone’s healing is different. If you feel like your pain was rugswept or never dealt with properly that’s probably a good place to start diggging into some buried resentment. Yes it sucks, and if it’s on the line of abuse it’s never okay. You are free to leave the situation if you choose to but staying and facing the consequences sounds like what you want. Maybe ask him gently the next time what he hopes to learn from saying those things or just apologize for whatever he’s saying and remind him you love him. That worked wonders for my situation and it helped me learn to be mindful of responses when I’m just plain pissed off. It seemed to help diffuse the anger instead of escalating. Hope things get better soon and try to hang in there.

I removed the Stop Sign for you Gravycake

This thread is now open to responses from Betrayed Spouses.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 1:48 PM, October 31st (Wednesday)]

Two cents from a BS, this is solely from my personal experience and not knowing how you define abuse.

As someone else posted we all react and heal differently. While I do recall this at all, my WW was shocked when I called her nasty names very early on. I may not recall due to shame and that’s not in my nature and she was shocked as again, not in my nature.

With that said: I’d my WW has ever come to me and indicated her feelings about my rant/rage. I probably would have thrown her out immediately.

However a licensed therapist told me when my WW approaches the subject too both of us and this made sense to me.

For me: the anger/rage is hiding a primary feeling. If you don’t find out what it is, you will do more damage to yourself, your WW and your hopes to rebuild.

To my WW: you have given him pain and trauma like no other. Yes I’m sure it hurts you. However he has to get the “venom” out so he can move on. You have a choice, take it or leave.

This session was defining for us both. While she will remind me gently if I start viewing venom, I am also cognizant now of the feeling behind it and can quickly change my words, tone and body language.

I too am at 20 months and haven’t raged in I couldn’t tell you how long.

My advice? If it’s not physical abuse and you want to stay in the relationship. It’s a topic of therapy for both. If he is unwilling and still raging, then you have a choice too make.

If it’s physical abuse: make him pack his bags or you pack yours. No one and I mean no one deserves that.

I would avoid “calling him on it as if he’s still raging this much this long it’s going to set him off. It would me.

As others have said, there is a point and time it transitions from helping a BS heal by expelling the venom and dies more damage. Seems like your at that point unfortunately.

Good luck!

I am a bs. I was hurt, angry, devastated. I never abused my wayward spouse. Angry words are one thing, but abuse shouldn't be tolerated. I know that there are those that don't agree with me, but abuse is NEVER ok.

We all have a choice in how we respond to something. If we are so angry that we feel we must be abusive then we should end the relationship. I've seen people justify it on here, and I just can't understand that.

There should absolutely be consequences, but making someone suffer and lashing out with abuse, it's not acceptable in any other circumstance, why should it be in this circumstance.

Physical abuse isn't ok.

What exactly is he saying that you consider to be abuse? Mimicking isn't nice. But what else is he saying?

Many waywards come on here claiming abuse,when it's nothing more than the BS expressing their feelings..which understandably are pain and anger. I'm not saying that's what is going on here, but I think some examples of what he's saying would be helpful

I think it's also important to remember that affairs are abusive. Extremely so. So, if we go by the common sentiment that no one should stay with an abuser, then no WS is worthy of a chance at reconciliation, because every single wayward has abused their spouse. I also don't agree with saying a BS who is expressing their pain is doiny it to make the WS suffer.

[This message edited by HellFire at 10:45 PM, October 31st (Wednesday)]

Defining what constitutes "abuse" (whether verbal or physical) is going to be different between people. I think we can all agree on what constitutes physical abuse. Healthline defines verbal abuse by the following "warning signs" -

-They insult or attempt to humiliate you. Then they accuse you of being overly sensitive or say that it was a joke and you have no sense of humor.

-They frequently yell or scream at you.

-Arguments take you by surprise, but you get blamed for starting them.

-The initial disagreement sets off a string of accusations and dredging up of unrelated issues to put you on the defense.

-They try to make you feel guilty and position themselves as the victim.

-They save their hurtful behaviors for when you’re alone but act completely different when others are around.

-They get into your personal space or block you from moving away.

-They hit the wall, pound their fists, or throw things.

-They want credit for not having hit you.

Some of these seem a bit nebulous and I'm not sure I'd agree with others. Psychology Today has seems like a more detailed and exhaustive list. I'll provide a link for that one:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-mysteries-love/201503/15-common-forms-verbal-abuse-in-relationships

I certainly know and accept that infidelity is a form of abuse. I'd never argue that. I think there are probably few waywards who would try to argue that we don't deserve a certain amount of that abuse back, whether it's yelling, screaming, throwing things, or even revenge affairs. Where it started getting hazy for me anyway was in trying to figure out how long that should go on before it was becoming unhealthy and not helpful towards healing. In the case of my BS, what concerned me the most was that her anger and outbursts just kept getting worse and worse, even over a year later. At some point you start asking yourself when enough is enough. When she started screaming at me in front of the kids and making them cry, that was enough.

[This message edited by AshamedDad at 8:07 AM, November 1st (Thursday)]

I do know Graveycakes details. So in general I will

respond.

As others have said the farther away from D day the

verbal attacks will lessen. A BS may not even respond

much for the first 6 months after D day because

they are still in too much shock.

Then from 6 months past D day many a BS goes into the

anger phase. The anger phase can last up to 6 months.

So by a year from D day the uncontrolled anger should

be gone.

In a mad hatter situation the WS/BS can rage way

more than the BS/WS did. Simply just because a WS

can have an affair does not mean that they can accept

that their BS/WS would cheat on them.

They can compartmentalize the pain they caused their

BS, but not compartmentalize that their BS had a RA.

It seems harder for a WH/BH who had the affair first

to accept his BW/WW had an affair for just sex.

The way a BH is hurt more by the sex the WW had than

the emotions she had for her OM. The BH is hurt

less by the emotions the WW had for her OM than the

sex she had with her OM.

So if the OP is a year past D day, all of the affair

questions have been answered it is then time for

the BW/WW to tell the WH/BH it is time to work moving

forward and she will not accept less.

[This message edited by oldtruck at 5:10 PM, November 1st (Thursday)]

Let me clarify, abuse is verbal. There’s never and will never be physical. It’s difficult to sit and endure someone’s pain that you know you are the cause of. Thank you for some very good responses, we addressed this last night somewhat and hopefully he is seeing this through clear eyes

Ashamed dad..I would agree that in a normal, healthy relationship, many of the things you listed are abusive. However, once the WS enters an affair, the marriage is no longer a healthy,normal relationship. Because they brought the absue into the marriage. Lying, gaslighting,treating your spouse terribly,exposing them to STDs, etc,etc.

They attempt to humiliate you? A BS is incredibly humiliated by the WS when they cheated.

Arguments take you by surprise? Welcome to the rollercoaster you put your BS on.

They act differently when others are around, then are upset with you when alone? Again, a BS is humiliated. They don't want to further that humiliation by letting everyone around know their spouse cheated. Society tends to blame the bs for not meeting the needs of the cheater, so that's why they cheated. The BS typically has already been blamed by the WS, why add other people in....so they can blame the BS as well?

Expecting a BS to respond in a calm,healthy manner, while pulling the knives placed in their heart, and their back is unreasonable. Fair? Lol. Nothing is fair to the BS from the moment the WS slides down that slippery slope.

Also..just so you know..and so other waywards know... EVERYTHING is about the the affair for the BS, for a very long time. WS said he would do the dishes, but didn't? Well then the BS is irritated by them not following through with what they said they do. Which leads to..kinda like when they said the wouldn't cheat.. but they did. Still can't count on him to do what he says he will do....so how can I trust him to keep his pants zipped.

I'm s not exactly logical. Welcome to the mindfuck the BS goes through after dday.

[This message edited by HellFire at 8:44 AM, November 1st (Thursday)]

oldtruck -

Thanks for that reply, I've actually never heard it explained that way and it makes me think that's sort of what I was going through. For the first 6 months or so, it was sort of like my BS had done her own rug sweeping. I was almost shocked at how fast she seemed to move to a place that seemed to be at peace. Within a month of starting formal R attempt, she had stopped talking about the affairs, stopped asking questions, and was even talking about renewing our vows, where we'd go on vacation next summer, etc. There were still some ups and downs but the real anger started surfacing about 6-8 months later, and it just kept escalating from there, even when we were a year and a half out.

OP, again, can you give some examples of what he's saying that you consider to be abusive?

You said sitting and enduring someone's pain that you caused is difficult. That's different from abuse. If he's expressing his pain, and it hurts you to hear how he feels, that's not abuse.

As long as he's expressing his pain, reconciliation is still possible. The BS who shuts down and stops talking about it? Then the WS should worry.

I was rugsweeping for the first six months after dday. Then I was angry. Very much so. I stayed angry until about two years out. Once my husband started to "get it?" Suddenly my anger just faded away.

Yeah, Ashamed dad, that list might would be true but after a trauma much of this list is to be expected. Someone else here said it best, that it's venom that has to be let out.

I agree with Old truck on some of what he is saying. And, like a clock the first six months were a little quiet, we hit a 3 month anger phase followed by another month of quiet, and then a request for divorce.

We are about 14 months out from DDAY. I would say some of the ups and downs have leveled out a bit. But, I don't think that's always to be expected. It depends on a lot of things...trickle truth, continued contact, the inability for the WS to truly own the situation, get empathetic, showing them how much they want to work on it, the degree to which both people want to work it out, and I even believe the Pre-A marriage colors this some. That is just the tip of the iceberg on factors that could be in play. I am not saying that I have done perfectly in every category by any means, I am just saying that how the WS operates post DDAY could have it dragging out longer. The details of the A - length of involvement, etc. So many variables just come into play here.

The only person that you can control in the situation is you. Making sure that you are doing what you can to heal yourself and help your spouse heal. At some point (and I believe that point varies from situation to situation), it is in the best interest of the BS to try and get a handle on their own healing, for them not for us. But, to put a timeline on that, I don't know if you can.

At some point, I can see how one would begin to wonder if this is just a complete dealbreaker for the other person. If it seems prolonged and you still want the marriage, I would ask yourself what you have not done or tried. When we go too long in deadlock, you have to think what is happening is not working for either of you and it's time to try new tracks and tactics.

I want to say you need to make sure that you haven't prolonged it by your actions. Though, sometimes that's not helpful as we all have different levels of blindspots within ourselves. It's something to explore with a professional maybe who can help you assess that. But, giving an example, if your last trickle truth was 3 months ago, you are only 3 months out even if DDAY was 2 years ago. You start from scratch. I don't know your situation I am just giving you some examples to consider and apply.

[This message edited by hikingout at 9:06 AM, November 1st (Thursday)]

GC, I think some examples of what is being said would lead to more help, both from WS and from BS here. Case in point:

My wife and her counselor accused me of being "abusive" towards her. How was I being "abusive", you ask? Well, two days post D-day, supposedly when NC was in place, she texted the AP to say that she was heartsick and that she missed him. I saw the text via tracking software. I confronted her. She denied sending it.

Then, for the first time in our entire married life, I raised my voice and called her a liar. I called her a hypocrite. I told her that her faith she swore she clung to was BS, because how can someone declare that they have a deep faith and do all that she was doing? I told her that she had no morals and that she could make the choice to walk out or stay. But if she chose to leave, she was telling the kids on her way out the door. I also said more swear words in 20 minutes than I had in the last 20 years. I was pissed and the Hulk came out.

And to this day, almost 2 years later, she still swears that I was abusing her because the IC said so. I have asked my IC, I have asked the MC in my wife's presence whether I was being abusive, because I feel horrible if that was the case. Both have said that it was an emotional outburst that was a one time event, this it wasn't anything that should be considered abuse.

My wife then, almost 18 months later, accused me of being abusive again. She brought it up in an MC session and painted a picture of an angry, abusive rage monster. When the MC asked more probing questions, every part of my wife's story fell apart.

"How often does Cap raise his voice?"

He doesn't.

"When was the last time he yelled and stormed out of a room?"

He hasn't.

"How hard did he hit or punch the furniture or walls or door?"

He didn't.

"So, what was abusive?"

I don't know. I felt like I was being abused.

"You weren't. You were uncomfortable. Uncomfortable isn't being abused."

You see, whenever I brought up the inconcictencies in her story or asked for a real answer and a hard look at her own actions...my wife cried "abuse". I wasn't mocking her, I wasn't belittling her, I didn't use demeaning language. I was asking her to take a good, hard look at her actions and make changes.

But somewhere in her mind, the old IC had crossed wires and anything I brought up about her actions was "abuse".

Now, I'm not discounting that it very well could be abusive. What I'm saying is that providing examples of what you are calling abusive behavior would help us provide further support. What seems/feels abusive to one (my wife, for example), may not be anything more than not wanting to hear about their own decisions because of the shame.

Or it could actually be abuse.

[This message edited by CaptainRogers at 9:24 AM, November 1st (Thursday)]

I'm sorry but if someone (WS or BS) is in a situation and the FEEL they are being abused, than there is a problem. People define abuse differently. But if you are in a situation where your spouse is no longer feels safe then there is an issue. Having rational two way conversation would not lead someone to define it as abuse. No matter how much shame they feel.

I have a problem with people making it less than it is. I read a post where a woman said her husband would oink at her because she gained weight. He thought it was funny, she felt hurt and uncomfortable. That can be defined by her as verbal abuse, to him, it was "a joke." Was he raising his voice, hitting, screaming, no. But it was still abuse.

[This message edited by pinkpggy at 9:39 AM, November 1st (Thursday)]