SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

It is the case that you have trauma from the combination of early infidelity and years of her lying and you wondering about it. Your healing is a priority and she should be focused on it.

At the same time, you also have a marriage and family and that is also a priority. Parallel tracks.

It sounds from both of your posts that this has been a wake-up moment for her in terms of realizing various ways in which she has been dishonest with you, and with herself, both passively and actively, for the purpose of achieving what she thought was making you happy. The short version is that she is codependent and a poor communicator. The codependency explains her A, by the way. It was an escape from responsibility.

It is difficult for a codependent person who has a history of subverting her/his truth to learn how to communicate with authentic truth. I know because I share this history with your WW and had a period where I undertook to learn to communicate authentically with my wife. We (codependent people who privately subvert our priorities) tend to speak awkwardly, or in hurtful ways, because we’ve not learned how to communicate our authentic selves. I think it’s important for you to encourage her in this process. She is trying to become a better version of herself, for the purpose of making the marriage a better version of itself.

The TV story is a classic “men Mars/women Venus” type of conversation. I’ve had variations of that thousands of times with my wife. Every husband has. My wife and I are of different ethnicities. From time to time a person might ask me if we have any difficult issues in our marriage based on the difference in our races. “Oh man,” I say. “It’s hell. The male race and the female race are fundamentally incompatible.” It’s true.

By the way, a TV in the bedroom? Are you kidding me? You ought to get it out of the bedroom. Or at least disconnect it and use it only when you and the wife hook up a computer and watch some porn during sex.

As to the "you don't need to satisfy me" comment, I wonder if what she is trying to say is that you don't need to focus your energy on bringing her to climax every time you have sex. I think she's trying to give you free rein to want her for your own pleasure, with the idea that your desire for her, your lust, is something she wants because it makes her feel good.

As to the babysitter, it's a nit. She was trying to make the babysitter feel good. She was not trying to get in bed with her. There was a thread here some time ago with a WW who was trying to fix up a man with a friend of hers as a sex partner. That man ended up being her AP. Later, after dday, she was trying to fix up another different man with another different friend as a sex partner. I mention this to draw the distinction. In that thread, the WW was specifically concerning herself and directing her energy toward fulfilling another man's sexual satisfaction. Her actions were intended to get him laid. In contrast, your WW's comments to the babysitter were intended as a compliment, to make her feel good about herself.

CBM, not surprised to read this update, but sorry to read it just the same. I wonder if she has it in her to put you first. While that is unsustainable in perpetuity (especially with little ones), it is certainly not unreasonable in the near to mid-term after D day. If not now, then when? Again, sorry.

Maybe you need to declare a pause to R, maybe even separate for a bit. I think you kind of rushed it in the first place. While that is understandable, it could be one of the things that prevented her from breaking down enough to have a breakthrough.

Just some food for thought.

How would his WW feel if the babysitter were a gay male, who was sending him photos.

He should fire the babysitter btw. Give her a call tell her any further contact will be considered harassment.

Whether it's choosing to share with me that she "doesn't need me to satisfy her" when we're supposed to be having sex, or sharing that she has had sexual fantasies about my best friend for a decade, or flirting via text with our lesbian babysitter,

She says that she thinks about you all the time -- except I guess when she is fantasizing about your best friend or the babysitter. UNBELIEVABLE!!!

So, did you EVER think your wife thought about this stuff? Her "inner voice coming out" should be waking you up to who she really is....

She blurts out her feelings without any regard to my state of mind or what might damage me, and then indignantly tells me it's for the best, it's how our marriage is going to get better, she's going to be a better person for it, etc.

and yet she does this:

had no idea she felt like this, I don't know why she didn't ask to watch something else, I don't know why she showed interest in the video if she didn't want to watch it, I can't figure her out at all. She's mad at me for what I didn't say to her, and yet the words she said to me were conflict-avoidant and dishonest, with her just hoping I would read her mind.

So she wants to be better at communicating with you -- but HOW? Magically? Telepathy?

Instead of a genuine apology, I am told to control my reaction and try to understand her intention and that she sometimes can't control her blurting out.

So, it's OK for HER to blurt things out and not control herself, but not for you?

Her only answer is she wanted the sitter to think she was cool and clever so that she'll want to babysit for us. I told her paying her is how we make sure wants to babysit for us. It's a fucking job, not a popularity contest. I got really mad when she said this, and told her it sounds like BS.

Yes, it IS BS. You need to tell her to STOP talking to this woman about anything other than babysitting, or you will have to find a new babysitter. She just admitted that she cheated, and yet she things acting THIS inappropriately is OK??? WTF?

She really doesn't seem remorseful AT ALL. Seems like she is acting like, now that I've told you about me cheating, I am free to tell you EVERYTHING and anything including the fact that I'd like to bang your best friend and the babysitter. See? I'm so open and honest now. She just doesn't seem remorseful or like she cares how you feel -- NOT R material.

CBM,

Perhaps one of the reasons why you seem to be 'disconnecting' now, is that your W was putting on a facade for you after her A. She felt that she had to acquiesce to your needs, since she had screwed up, and had to make it up to you.

Now that the truth is out, she is finding herself, and you are finding out that her true self is not the one you married. She is starting to feel resentment for giving up on herself over these years. If she does feel that way, then she has to realise that she was the one that changed herself, as you did not know she betrayed you, and hence did not ask her to put her needs aside for you, she did that on her own, without discussing with you. You had not part in this.

Now, is this good or bad? Who knows? Is it something that you two can work with? That will depend on the two of you.

CBM, I suffered through several years of the same indescribable empathy and sensitivity ignorance (maybe even arrogance) as you have described. Not every exact detail, but the fundamental broken issues that you face with your fWW.

I am still not certain whether I stayed too long or stayed just long enough by shear coincidence. My wife had a bit of an epiphany and significantly changed most of what you described over a six month period. While it was what ultimately saved our relationship from a final ending, it was a long and painful enduring experience.

Of course what your fWW says to you, how she says it, what she doesn't say, her wayward thinking answers as to why she does and says what she says......all of it will likely not end soon. You are pretty powerless to change it. You have little power of persuasion over her thinking and doing and saying. She will either come to some mindset change on her own, or not.

It will last for as long as she stays broken. I think IC could help her. I suspect she thinks it unnecessary: that the issue is on you for not accepting and understanding her. She likely sees little in what she says, how she says it, as particularly convoluted. You're the problem. If you just could relate to her and understand the feelings that compel her words and actions, things would be all better.

I know what you are going through. I wish for you, an epiphany for your wife.

I was posting angry the other day, which is probably pretty obvious. It's been a very tough few days for me, mostly because of all the setbacks we keep having which make me feel like R is impossible, which then makes me depressed. I also crave validation on my feelings of hurt and her lack of empathy/remorse, so I posted the stories I did to gauge other's responses. I don't regret it, but I want to add context.

We were both feeling incredibly sad yesterday, and we came home early to talk alone without kids. We had a productive talk, but I am just so overwhelmed with grief and sadness lately. I have these visions of the future of me alone, and they feel so real and so certain. I have been who I have been since I was 16, I matured early and I have always had confidence in myself and a strong belief system. This revelation has wrecked me, left me feeling lost, and what I know about who I am says to me, "you can't get over this. You will resent her for life." I can still lay next to her, and feel love, and I still badly want to make it work, but I have this gut feeling that it is an exercise in futility.

I often feel empathy for the WS on this board (as I have famously written about my own "near miss" experience) and I do feel a lot of empathy for my wife when I think about what happened rationally - she was young, she felt alone, she was immature, she has grown so much, she loves me dearly, etc, etc. The problem is that it happened to me, and it is too personal, and too painful, and I feel like I can't get over it. I want to, but I feel incapable of it.

My wife was mostly great yesterday, saying the right things and holding me while I wept and expressed the thoughts above. However, one thing that hurt me yesterday and often rubs me the wrong way, is that when I talk about leaving her, she says things like, "it won't fix things, you will still be hurting, you need to heal. Someone else won't be able to heal you." I told her, "I know you're probably right, but I don't want to hear that, what I want to hear is for you to say 'please don't leave me. Please stay. I need you.'"

Her response to that was, "so you want me to beg?" She sounded almost offended. It upset me. I said, "No, I want you to show me that you want me to stay. Not just give me reasons why it won't work out for me to leave. And what if I did want you to beg? Is that asking too much? Am I not worth begging for?"

She finally broke down a bit and said something like, "of course I want you to stay. I can't imagine life without you. I don't know what I would do. Please stay." It felt good to hear it, and I realized I hadn't really heard that from her yet. I have heard her say over and over that she loves me, and of course that she wants our marriage to work, but there has never been a personal, vulnerable plea from her to ask me to stay. Ask me - I think that's the key. She has never asked. I really wanted to hear her ask.

Maybe you need to declare a pause to R, maybe even separate for a bit. I think you kind of rushed it in the first place. While that is understandable, it could be one of the things that prevented her from breaking down enough to have a breakthrough.

I have been having these exact thoughts a lot lately. She knows what she did was terrible, she feels terrible about it, and she knows I am in immense pain, but I don't get the sense she truly believes I would leave her.

Seems like she is acting like, now that I've told you about me cheating, I am free to tell you EVERYTHING and anything including the fact that I'd like to bang your best friend and the babysitter. See? I'm so open and honest now. She just doesn't seem remorseful or like she cares how you feel

She definitely does not have the attitude you imply, but the sentiment is correct. She tells me all kinds of truths and uses no discretion in how she shares it. She always does it with the best of intentions (be open and honest), and not at all to rub anything in my face or to intend to hurt me, but it just doesn't feel to me like she considers how her words will affect me before she says things or acts.

Perhaps one of the reasons why you seem to be 'disconnecting' now, is that your W was putting on a facade for you after her A. She felt that she had to acquiesce to your needs, since she had screwed up, and had to make it up to you.

Now that the truth is out, she is finding herself, and you are finding out that her true self is not the one you married. She is starting to feel resentment for giving up on herself over these years. If she does feel that way, then she has to realise that she was the one that changed herself, as you did not know she betrayed you, and hence did not ask her to put her needs aside for you, she did that on her own, without discussing with you. You had not part in this.

Now, is this good or bad? Who knows? Is it something that you two can work with? That will depend on the two of you.

You really captured how I feel with this statement. She thinks I know her, and that any changes she is making are simply around expressing herself more, not changing the fundamentals of who she is. She thinks I will like her more as a result. I am not so sure, but I hope so.

If you just could relate to her and understand the feelings that compel her words and actions, things would be all better.

She has actually said basically these exact words to me. She badly wants me to "understand her" and feels that if I did, everything would change and we would find true love again and be happy. I keep trying to tell her that words matter, and context matters, and that she is asking too much of me to judge her only on intentions. Even if I truly "understood her", I would still be hurt by her words when she uses them carelessly. The onus isn't on me to adapt to her poor communication, it's on her to improve it. She wants to, but I have major doubts it will happen.

DIFM - can you share more of your story? It sounds like you reconciled, is that correct? How did your WS end up having the epiphany?

CBM:

This is going to be another in several posts I have made in your thread that challenge you.

I am going to take a completely different position from many of the others here. Your WW gave you a gift when she (attempted to) clarify her stance.

A GIFT.

Let me explain:

Right now, your expectation from her is transparency. This is clearly an area in which she has struggled for a long time.

Transparency is easy when delivering messages the recipient wants to hear...right?

So she takes what internally likely felt like a HUGE risk, and was transparent with you in what could potentially be something you did not want to hear. She was honest with you.

Your response was to lose your shit.

Think about that for a second... There was a penalty from you for her honesty. What do you think will cross her mind the next time she has to give an honest answer that may hurt you?

This is why they say reconciliation is hard, brother.

You have to decide what is more important...your feelings and ego...or authenticity. Those who TRULY want authenticity are willing to endure the hurt that comes with uncomfortable truths.

Furthermore, if her honesty means your compatibility is not what you once thought it to be, isn't that also a gift? With that information, you can make decisions based on the truth rather than within the bubble your ego is trying to form around your feelings.

I would like to qualify the truth in that truth must be delivered with love to be of use. Truth designed to hurt is quite the opposite.

So, all of that said...which do you actually want?

CBM, my attempt at conciseness left out important context about separation and the ultimate ability to R. Please allow me to add the following...

Based on what you’ve said, I’ve interpreted that your W’s words are sometimes a trigger for you. So the primary purpose of separating is giving you space to begin healing yourself. Because your W is absolutely correct that you need to heal yourself. I’ve seen more than one BS get hung up on, and possibly resent, that they need to do work on themselves to overcome something that was done to them. I think that is an accurate read on the situation and part of the unfairness of infidelity. Nevertheless,it must be addressed.

A separation also allows your W time to work through her issues in a lower pressure environment, and perhaps better put her thoughts into words before you talk about these highly sensitive issues. It also makes very clear to her what life will be like if you do D. This could provide some urgency that might not otherwise exist.

Lastly, to be clear, I don’t want you to D if you think you can R. However, if you R I want it to be a successful R that builds a new M that approaches what you thought you had before. My suggestions above are for you to protect yourself and begin healing to decide if R is possible.

Farside & Sanibel - I appreciate the thoughts. I am not here only looking for validation, but also to be challenged and to help me process my own shit. Posts like yours are helpful to me for that reason.

So she takes what internally likely felt like a HUGE risk, and was transparent with you in what could potentially be something you did not want to hear. She was honest with you.

Your response was to lose your shit.

Can't argue with this - it's true. I keep saying that my issue isn't her willingness to share (a good thing), it's her timing and appropriateness. But yeah, she spoke up and I lost my shit.

The thing is, her feelings on Sunday were, to me, unfair and not worth sharing with me. Had I actually said words that were hurtful, then I could understand. But to be upset at me over nothing, over perception, over my lack of words and inability to "read between the lines" on her unclear language, was very frustrating and unfair and not something I can process well in light of everything else. My feeling is in this scenario, choose happiness. Choose not to say something.

That said, the fact that she spoke up was her trying to do the right thing. She has said that and I know she means it. She didn't speak up to antagonize me. But it didn't sit right with me because I felt unfairly attacked, I felt her feelings were irrational, and I felt like it was extremely counter-productive in light of the good weekend we were so close to ending on a high note.

Based on what you’ve said, I’ve interpreted that your W’s words are sometimes a trigger for you. So the primary purpose of separating is giving you space to begin healing yourself. Because your W is absolutely correct that you need to heal yourself. I’ve seen more than one BS get hung up on, and possibly resent, that they need to do work on themselves to overcome something that was done to them. I think that is an accurate read on the situation and part of the unfairness of infidelity. Nevertheless,it must be addressed.

This is so true. My wife expresses this by telling me "I need to heal". She thinks if I heal, then I will be open to working on our marriage and on myself. And she may be right, and what you're saying supports that. But I don't feel ready to do that, and I also feel like my wife's issues are 90% of "our" problems. That sounds shitty, but I really believe it. And I think that if/when she is able to show me that she can change and be more thoughtful, then (and only then) will I be ready to do my work.

Edit: clicked "submit" by accident before I was done typing

[This message edited by CantBeMe123 at 10:58 AM, March 6th (Wednesday)]

However, one thing that hurt me yesterday and often rubs me the wrong way, is that when I talk about leaving her, she says things like, "it won't fix things, you will still be hurting, you need to heal. Someone else won't be able to heal you." I told her, "I know you're probably right, but I don't want to hear that, what I want to hear is for you to say 'please don't leave me. Please stay. I need you.'"

Her response to that was, "so you want me to beg?" She sounded almost offended. It upset me. I said, "No, I want you to show me that you want me to stay. Not just give me reasons why it won't work out for me to leave. And what if I did want you to beg? Is that asking too much? Am I not worth begging for?"

She finally broke down a bit and said something like, "of course I want you to stay. I can't imagine life without you. I don't know what I would do. Please stay."

This is what I was referring to earlier. Having to be coached into empathy. It was not instinctual to ask (let along beg) you to stay. Her default position is one of selfishness. She let it be known with her indignant response.

You had to call her out on her attitude. Then she knew what to say to placate you. This, to me, is a red flag.

Perhaps it’s not that she does not want to empathize. But that she is incapable of it. Like asking a blind person to see.

I've read about half of this thread, so I could be way off. I've read very little of flawed's posts.

Gently, I think your W's infidelity is incidental to today's problems. Even without infidelity, you describe a marriage in which you're unhappy because you're not getting what you want from your W and you don't really want what she's giving.

I suggest you focus on building the M you want. I think your focus on infidelity may be taking energy away from building that M. It may even be a way of avoiding building that M.

And you need to accept that you may not be able to build the M you want with your W, because you may want very different things from life and M

Some of what you write makes me think some of your conflicts arise because your minds work differently. A good MC can determine if that realy is a problem, and s/he can help you understand each other.

Are you in IC? I think a good IC can help you identify the problems you need to deal with - for example, a good IC can't help you determine the impact your W's cheating vs. the impact of your M dissatisfaction.

I do not mean to minimize your pain. The pain of hearing the truth after years of lying compounds the pain of being unhappy with your M, and I just can't, and don't want to, imagine how horrible that feels.

I'm writing to share what I see in your posts and offer a suggestion for your consideration. If this post doesn't help you, feel free to ignore it.

CBM, in your reply to me you hit upon why it is necessary to recover before you can R (IC before MC, etc.) There is an excellent thread on this topic in JFO, and if you haven’t read it already I suggest you do so. If you have read, perhaps re-reading it at your current place in your journey will have a different impact.

Your W’s presumption that you healing means you will automatically be ready to R is a little flawed (no pun intended). It speaks to what I’ve characterized to her as entitled behavior and I think it gets in the way of your/her progress.

Anyway, we’ll be here to listen when you need to vent.

My wife expresses this by telling me "I need to heal". She thinks if I heal, then I will be open to working on our marriage and on myself.

Of course you need to heal. That is a given. But your fWW does not yet connect that you will not heal until she connects how the words she chooses and her manner of response, negatively impacts that healing.

She wants to think that your pain is limited to her past betrayals. Of course that is painful. But what she does not appear to accept is that the pain from the past is kept in the present as a result of the words she uses and when and how she uses them today. Her communications are incongruous with empathy. I know where you are. You must feel and see and hear empathy. In my experience, you will not move into healing until she owns the very real contribution she is making to keeping you there.

My fWW used to say things like, "I always say the wrong thing", or "I don't communicate as well as you do", or "that's not what I meant", etc. But it was never really that. She was saying what she was thinking and her thinking was still about herself, even though she would never overtly admit that. The proof was in the pudding. If you are empathetic and own a wrong, you are acutely aware of how your words might make things worse. She was not yet willing to own, not just the details of her A, but own that she either was or was not empathetic. That to say she was, but allow herself leeway to not be such through words, facial expressions, a focus on self, etc., was never going to get me out of the past.

Your wife is capable of communicating in ways that help you heal vs keeping the pain in the present. You might ask her how she reconciles being empathetic towards you and the pain she caused, with her comfort level in causing more pain through her communication choice. It is a choice she is making, you know that. At this point, she still just rationalizes why. And you know that rationalizing is part of unsafe wayward behavior.

She would have you believe that your inability to get over the past is the problem: that her hurtful way of communicating with and reacting to you is only perceived by you as such because you have not moved towards healing yourself. Until she makes the connection between her communication choices and the lack of empathy it shows, you will likely continue to hear her advice that you need to heal yourself.

[This message edited by DIFM at 1:24 PM, March 6th (Wednesday)]

Sanibel has it.

CBM, you keep waiting for your wife to take the lead in this. That is a two part problem.

One, she doesn't pack the gear to do so. At least, not now...and maybe not ever.

Two, she is doing the EXACT same thing you are...looking for you to lead.

You are effectively waiting on each other.

The above poster has it right. You must recover first. If I were a betting person, your marriage will fail if you do not do so. Your wife is does not have the make up to lead this.

You do. But you have to choose to do so. In so doing, you will have to reach the point of acceptance. Acceptance is what you lack, which is evident in where you emotionally go when you trigger.

So, what will it take for you to recover?

ETA: Recovery includes having the ability and understanding to hear what your wife says even when it hurts. Without that, you will never reach true transparency. Without true transparency, your reconciliation will continue to struggle.

[This message edited by farsidejunky at 1:24 PM, March 6th (Wednesday)]

CBM, you may have already covered this and I missed it, but what personal development/introspective work has your wife done with empathy. Has she covered this in IC?

CBM, I discovered your thread just a few days ago and have read it in its entirety.

I'm not as good as the other posters here with giving advice, but I wanted to tell you that all through your thread, I've been impressed (and a bit envious) with how you seem to be so in tune with your emotions and exactly what you are feeling, and you usually know exactly what bothers you about a situation or something that has been said..... and you can clearly articulate all these things. Also, your willingness and ability to honestly and openly share these thoughts and feelings, with your wife and with us, is not something everyone is capable of, or even willing to do.

Perhaps I noticed these things because they are things I struggle with myself.

I am hoping for healing and peace for you, whatever path you take. This is such a painful and confusing thing to go through, but you CAN heal, and you CAN have peace again. Please take good care of yourself and remember to be kind to YOU whike you work to get to a better place.

I also hope you keep sharing your story with us.

If you just could relate to her and understand the feelings that compel her words and actions, things would be all better.

She has actually said basically these exact words to me. She badly wants me to "understand her" and feels that if I did, everything would change and we would find true love again and be happy. I keep trying to tell her that words matter, and context matters, and that she is asking too much of me to judge her only on intentions. Even if I truly "understood her", I would still be hurt by her words when she uses them carelessly.

Yikes! Sorry, but this sounds like a 'me me me' train of thought. YOU have to understand her, not she understand you. *shudder*

The facade is off, and the Kraken in her has been unleashed, and is now demanding to be fed. This is going to be quite a ride I think.

The onus isn't on me to adapt to her poor communication, it's on her to improve it. She wants to, but I have major doubts it will happen.

You are absolutely right with this thinking. She was the one that was hiding things for so long, whilst you have been chugging along on your own merry and authentic way. She has yet to learn how to be authentic.

As to the question about whether she has desire for a marriage with you, people here often say that actions speak louder than words, and her actions are 100% about building a stronger/better relationship with you. It's clear she wants a future with you, and she is putting in the work, to the best of her abilities, to accomplish this. I think she would be truly shattered if you left.

As to the healing alone/together dialectic, she is correct in pointing out that it is a binary universe. You could spend it trying to heal with somebody who understands your pain and wants to be with you to help you heal, or without that person. It's not very likely you'll meet somebody new who wants to help you with that baggage. Chances are more likely you'll need to sort it out on your own.

So you leave her and head off into the world as a single man. When you return home after work, instead of returning to your home with wife and kids, you return to an empty apartment. You eventually get restless and find a group of new friends to party with. You sow some wild oats, including finding a woman or two who just want a booty call with you. Will you then be healed? Will the empty apartment at the end of a workday feel worth it. If so, then what? What does life look like for you at age 50? 60? 70? Life is linear.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 7:39 AM, March 12th (Tuesday)]

Butforthegrace, you go from 0-100 on the separation scenario. It is conceivable that a temporary separation of indeterminate length would help CBM determine if he can R with the current (and evolving) version of his W. Based on his description, his W appears to be a trigger. If he removes, or lessens his exposure to, the trigger I reason that he might heal himself faster and thus come to a conclusion as to whether or not he can build a new M.

I don’t think anyone is encouraging CBM to D immediately, give 100% custody to his W, and become a creepy old guy. It seems to me that’s the picture you’re painting.