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Just caught up on your thread CBM. Don't read any further if you don't want to hear a rebuttal and an opinion that others on this forum probably don't share. You seem very co-dependent to me. You seem to be crawling up into a ball and crying over what your wife did before you were married. You're pretending that you're on the fence with your marriage when you know full well that you're too dependent to divorce. I suspect that your wife is picking up on these vibes and is not impressed with the man she thought that she married, not that you should care.

I think you've got bigger issues than your WW cheating before marriage. I suspect her prior cheating was for two reasons; she liked the attention and the ride, but she also enjoyed the validation from her g-friend that she was a winner of sorts. She got the guy that her friend had the hots for. I also think she's been mentally cheating for the entirety of your marriage. The obvious signs are in her seeking validation from your babysitter and other people. This website is here for the purpose of building people up and helping them back onto their feet but that same validation can become addictive to people who have poor self esteem. She's looking around at others who seem to be happy and have direction and purpose in their lives. She's seeking validation from those people because they're showing that they've got something that she doesn't. And the kicker is that in her eyes your best friend is outshining you such that she's been thinking about him sexually.

Rather than laying down and dying over this, you really need to take a serious step back from this person you've married and logically evaluate her behavior. She isn't behaving like a faithful spouse. A faithful spouse doesn't think like that. You've dived to quickly into reconciliation because you're afraid of losing what you think you have. I'd suggest you rethink this thing. There's no contrition on her part. She plays the sorry game every once in a while when necessary but she's not really sorry.

You would do well to read about the 180 in the Healing Library and start distancing yourself from this person. I'm not saying divorce. I'm saying stop pleading for understanding, stop showing weakness, get some mental distance from her (temporarily move out if needed), look at your situation with a clear head, look at her decade of behavior from a point of view of what's 'normal', and then decide what's best for your future happiness. All of the arguing and passive aggressive behaviors are not normal. Life is short. The idea is to make it the best life you can in the limited time that you have.

Deal with your co-dependency now because it will eventually destroy you. Deal with your wife's wandering eye and thoughts because if she hasn't already, she'll be taking it physical soon. (It sounds to me like she's been having PR's. It would be consistent with her pre-marriage behavior and constant sexual thoughts). Draw lines in the sand and have a plan if/when they're crossed. Your wife is not your mother, don't treat her like she is and don't let her treat you like she is. You're the head of the home; take control of it. Attack this situation like a man would attack any threat to themselves or their family's well being; put a bullet in it's head (figuratively speaking).

I apologize if this post is grating. It bothers me sometimes when I see people who because of missing the forest for the trees are losing site of what's important. I wish the best for you.

Sanibel, I hear your point. I don't pretend to know the right answers.

I did have a thought about possibly how to re-frame CBM's fundamental conundrum. Say there is a sex act he has always wanted to experience but never has. Say a BJ. Prior to marriage, he didn't have a lot of sex and never got a BJ, and for some odd set of circumstances it is physically impossible for his wife to give a BJ to him, but only him. She could give BJ's to other men, and other women could give BJ's to CBM, but there is some unique aspect that prevents her from giving a BJ to CBM.

By marrying his wife, he knows he is choosing a life with no BJ, ever. He's okay with that because he loves his wife and decides that the benefits of being married to her outweigh the theoretical pleasure of experiencing a BJ.

Then, 12 years into the marriage, he finds out that while they were together, in their early years, she cheated and specifically cheated by giving BJ's to the AP. A year or two earlier, he had been flirting with a co-worker who would have been willing to give him a BJ, but he rejected the co-worker out of fealty to his marriage.

Now, he is legitimately wondering why he should go through life without ever getting a BJ. I completely get that.

But what I wonder is how a separation will help his decision-making process. He has a family. If they separate, life will become more complicated, not less so.

Life is linear.

I know this, and it is what is going to kill our marriage. Life IS linear, and who my wife was back then, the circumstances of how we came together, how she treated me as a boyfriend and a fiance and even as a husband, it all matters. Life is linear. The only way our marriage could survive is if it wasn't, but it is.

Here's a very long fleshing out of our origin story. Feel free to skip, I am writing it out for my benefit, to vent, to get it on paper. But this is why I don't think I can make us work.

My wife and I met in January 2004, 15 years ago, in college. I was shy and always had my head down and headphones on, but she started talking to me before a class we had together. We became friends, and pretty quickly, if not immediately, I developed a crush on her.

She never developed a crush on me. She continued casually hooking up with guys while we grew closer as friends. We went to Tijuana together, ended up grinding and making out on the dance floor (a trend with her, I have come to realize) and I thought my dreams were coming true. Instead, she told me "we're not having sex", and we didn't, and we didn't start dating in any formal way. But I thought we were 'a thing' at that point. I thought what happened meant something.

I went to a friend's place in another state that spring break and spent the whole trip dreaming about her and planning on what to buy her to bring back and show her how much I loved her. I don't remember what I settled on, because as soon as I got back she told me how she hooked up with this douchebag guy she shared a class with. She first lied (notice another trend?) and minimized what happened, but then let it slip that they actually performed oral on each other.

I was devastated. It felt like being cheated on back then, even though we weren't formally together. I gave her an ultimatum, that I couldn't just be friends with her, that I needed an exclusive dating relationship with her or I couldn't remain friends. She at first told me no, that she wasn't ready to commit to dating, but then changed her mind about a week later. We became a couple.

Our relationship was born with me feeling rejected and then pitied, and her feeling unready to commit and without ever having had a crush or sexual attraction for me. I should have never moved forward with dating her, but I was in love with her and I wanted to be the guy who got the girl, for once. Everything about how we got together was a huge red flag and it bothers me to this day.

But instead, I jumped in and we dated and things were great. Our sex life was great. Our connection was great. She needed help, and I loved helping. I didn't know the extent of her issues back then, but I knew I wanted to be the guy to solve them and heal her and make her better. If I knew what a toll it would take on me, I would never make that decision again.

We ended up dating long distance for a year and we remained madly in love. Love is easy when it's pure fantasy, which is basically what we had. Constant phone calls, constant pining, wild sex once a month or so when we saw each other. It was like an affair.

Then she moved out to start the rest of our life together, and everything changed. Real life was hard. She didn't get a good job, or any job. I was still in school, so she was alone a lot. When we were together, I didn't give her the amount of attention she desired. Our relationship never got really bad, but it wasn't a fantasy any more.

Then she starts her retail job, and becomes part of the "cool kids club" like she always does, and starts wanting to go out with them on weekends. I don't want to join, it's not my thing, but I let her go because I trust her. She immediately takes the opportunity to leave the night club with her AP and go to fuck him, without even thinking about me or feeling any guilt. Pure selfishness. He was the opposite of me, and she treated him the opposite of how she treated me. She had a huge crush on him, and was a willing participant in sex as soon as it was presented.

She continues with him even after getting walked in on with him by another person. She wasn't able to walk away from the high, the attraction, the endorphins, whatever. She finally gets caught by me, but lies her way out of it and greatly minimized what happened.

I was incredibly co-dependent back then and bought her lies, because I wanted to believe it. Mostly, I was terrified of being single and starting over. I regret how I acted back then enormously. I had a chance to push, to find the truth, and to leave her when there wasn't much to walk away from, but I took the easy way out, put on blindfolds and covered my ears. Fuck me, I hate that I did that.

After the affair, while we're engaged, she goes on a trip to England with a friend and spends a day on a "date" with a random dude who hit on her while walking around town. She spends the whole day with him, smokes pot with him, let's him buy her a drink at a pub, and then ends up having to run away from him when he aggressively tried to get her to go back to his apartment at the day's conclusion. Shocker. This is how she acted as my fiancee, and after taking part in her affair and claiming she could never do something like that again. She truly had no respect for me at all. She welcome any and all attention from any male that gave it to her.

Sometime around this same time, she also has a heart-to-heart about cheating on me with another guy she worked with at the time while drinking at a happy hour together. She shared with him the truth of what she did, which she hid from me for my whole life. She let's him drive her home from the bar, and then gets propositioned by him in our driveway. She turns him down, but says to him, "besides, isn't flirting more fun anyway?" No respect. Pure selfishness. This asshole was in attendance at my wedding. That kills me.

My wife worked out a lot back then and formed a

"clique" with some workout buddies (because again, she always has to feel like she part of the cool kids). This crew was practically all woman, with the exception of one guy who loved to hang around them and be charming and witty. And of course he was in great shape.

My wife and I walked into a coffee shop once and he was sitting at a table alone. When we said hi, my wife started sweating profusely, her whole body practically liquefying, beads pouring down her face. I have never seen anything like it, before or since. She has admitted to me she had a crush on him and she felt embarrassed by it, but swears that nothing physical with him ever happened. She has passed a poly, but I still have my doubts. I have never seen anything like that in my life.

I hated this guy because of how obvious it was to me that my wife had a crush on him. Later on, I had to actually fight with me wife (then fiancee) not to invite him and this group of friends to our wedding. She wanted them all there, they were her people, her buds. Meanwhile, she failed to notice or take into consideration that they made me feel insecure, uncool, and not part of the group. I resented her for that. I resent her even more now, knowing that she was aware of her feelings for him.

This all happens BEFORE we're even married. I had the most wayward of girlfriends, and I was oblivious to almost all of it. She hid 95% of it from me.

What's clear to me now is that she had no passion for me in the early stages of our relationship. She denies this but the proof is in the fucking pudding. She used me for how good I made her feel, but never really committed to me. She acted like she was single every chance she got. She flirted, she indulged, she had an affair, she had another near-affair, she had inappropriate conversations, had crushes, put herself in inappropriate situations, etc, etc, etc. That is who she was.

If my wife had any strength of character, she would have broken up with me instead of cheating back then. She should have recognized her lack of passion for me and moved on. But she wanted to have her cake and eat it too, and so she did. And now we have this great big life to lose, instead of just a two year relationship that really was never built on much of anything than stubbornness (mine) and selfishness (hers), if we’re being honest.

I always hated and resented my wife for the hookup that happened right when I thought we were getting together, and I always harbored a lot of pain and anger around "the kiss" with her AP that she lied to me about for 12 years. Now, with all of this new knowledge that I've detailed above, I simply don't have it in me to live with this all as a part of our past. Life is linear. It's true.

My wife can do all the work in the world, but none of it will change that she was a gigantic piece of shit back then, and that our relationship is built on a whole lot of negative emotions for me. Rejection. Lack of passion. Cheating. Humiliation. Emasculation.

I don't have any doubt that my wife of today loves me a whole lot, and finds me attractive, and enjoys sex with me a great deal, and wants to be with me more than anything in the world. The problem is, she is also that girlfriend that treated me like shit. I can't be with that person. It's not my fault that she dragged that shitty old girlfriend into the present timeline and built this life we have on top of that awful foundation. I hate her for doing that, for convincing herself that if she only showed me her best parts, then her worst parts wouldn't matter. They fucking matter a lot.

What should have happened is that we should have broken up 12 years ago, or never been together in the first place. Instead, here we are, with a lot to lose and two innocent kids caught in the middle.

I want to find someone who loves me passionately from the get go, not after a long, slow burn and years of treating me like an afterthought. I want a relationship that doesn't have such a painful foundation upon which it was built. I want a relationship whose future won't be littered with triggers and bad memories. My wife can't give me any of those things.

Someone, anyone, please convince me I'm wrong.

I completely understand where you are coming from.

There are other ramifications to the “life is linear” bit, however. In every marriage, the partners themselves morph, mature, change. The marriage will not remain the same for its life. Some marriages grow stronger over time. Others grow weaker. Probably most go through phases of both getting stronger and weaker, and then back. There are entanglements, especially if there are kids. Responsibilities created and assumed to put aside one’s self.

The relationship you had in 2007 was dysfunctional, lopsided, and unfair to you, in ways you didn’t even know until years later because of the deception. If you were to carve that off, however, and look solely at the relationship you have in 2018-2019, putting aside the lies from years ago, what is your relationship now? Is it a marriage and a family you that gives you love, support, and peace? From what is posted on here, one senses that she has a deep and abiding love for you. We only know what is posted, however. You are living it. Is that your sense?

The linear aspect of life continues into the future. If you choose to walk away from your marriage, you may or may not find a replacement. Your life will be complicated for a time because of the difficulties of co-parenting. Your kids will likely be negatively impacted to some degree. Even if you start going out to clubs, become one of the “cool people”, learn how to be a player and get laid, will you then be satisfied with your life? Will you think the cost was worth it?

We all have regrets, things we wish we had done or said, places we wish we had gone. Linear life is imperfect because each choice precludes the other choices that were also available at the same time. You don’t get re-do’s. Your wife didn’t force you, in your college years, to be a withdrawn stay-at-home kind of guy. You chose that. It was shitty of her to lie to you. No question about that. And I think she was clueless about the ways in which her lying, and the specific things she lied about, would impact you due to your nature and makeup. Just like you, I’ll bet she wishes she could also have a do-over. I’ll bet she feels a burning sense that turning to shallow drinking and flirting and such was not worth the price of it she faces today. But like you, she also doesn’t get a do-over.

So here the two of you are, both regretting the past. You’ve built a family, a love, a life. What do you do with that?

CBM

I respectfully disagree, life is not linear. While certain aspects of life are linear, you’re born, you live, you die, everything in between is fluid. You even said so yourself in your post, had you done things differently with your W while dating, you wouldn’t be where you are today.

Every day, we are presented with a series of choices, some of which are mundane while others could change the course of our life. Do you run that light because you’re late to a meeting? Maybe you run it, nothing happens and you make it on time. Or you run it and you kill someone in the crosswalk.

It seems like you have two different views of your wife, the cold calculating GF who had no passion for you. Didn’t really love you and perhaps was with you early on because you were safe. The current wife who adores you, wants to spend the rest of her life with you etc.

So I ask you, who is she NOW? I’m asking because we often get caught up in this cycle of woulda, coulda shoulda that we get stuck. Well maybe if I did this, this would have happened or if they didn’t do that, things would be different. The thing is, you cannot undo what was done. It’s part of your combined history. That part is linear.

What isn’t linear are things that haven’t happened yet. Do you like/love the person your wife is TODAY and would she may be tomorrow? Is the person she is today worthy of you and your love?

I’m certainly not suggesting you ignore the past and what she’s done. That’s not something that can simply be washed away. IMO, what’s worth considering is not staying mired looking in your rear view mirror. Consider who you and your wife are today? Is that a suitable foundation to work from? Can the person (flawed) today become your life partner again?

Her A may be a dealbreaker for you and that’s a reasonable consequence for what she’s done. If you think the M still has a chance, take a step back and breathe a little.

CBM, there's a lot you're not wrong about there. In many ways, your story and that of your wife is one big cliche. You were the diligent, inexperienced, introverted guy and she was the hot party girl. You fell hard at the first sign of attention while for her you were just one of a hundred guys who wanted her. So she did what she always did, which was bask in the attention and give you just enough back so you'd stick around. You were another fish on the line, another source of reassurance that she was hot and interesting and desirable. What was important to her was not other people per se, but being envied by other women and wanted by men.

Then the two of you start a relationship, but because she's immature and selfish, she doesn't start acting like it because she's still a young, attractive woman who's used to getting tons of attention and always wants more. I'm sure she loved the fact that you were absolutely crazy about her, but what mattered, I'm sure you now understand, was not you as a person but you as a source of validation. When you were around, it was easy enough for her to play the part of the good girlfriend because you were meeting her need for validation. But when you weren't around she went looking for that it elsewhere, hence the lying and cheating and acting single.

Years pass, you get married, and she starts growing up little by little and beginning to be able to appreciate and love who you are as a person rather than as a source of feelings, and eventually she reaches a point where her guilt in addition to her regard for you makes it impossible for her to hold in the big secret anymore and she confesses to her affair. Given everything you just described about your history, I'm betting it put you right back at where you felt when you were back in college and she admitted to hooking up with another guy shortly after teasing and denying you, except even worse because that time you actually were in a committed relationship with her rather than being just another guy she was free to mess around with.

What you're going through is a big fear that a lot of guys have. You don't want to be the one who the girl didn't appreciate when she was younger because she was too busy clubbing and fucking every musclebound idiot who glanced her way while you went largely ignored even though you were working hard and trying to build a good life for yourself. You don't want to feel like the one she settled for once she got all the partying and sexual escapades out of her system. You don't want to be the guy who ends up with the girl who took him for granted for years and cheated on him and only started to see his good qualities after she got finished with her wild phase and had to grow up a little.

Unfortunately, right now you are that guy. Your wife was a vapid party girl when she was young. She did hook up with random dudes and string you along. She did cheat and constantly cross boundaries throughout your entire pre-marriage relationship. She did treat you like shit. She did spend twelve years lying to you in order to get what she wanted.

She also grew up. She started learning to see you for who you were and she fell in love with that man. She had children with you, built a life with you, made all kinds of happy memories with you, and is now finally starting to learn how to respect you in a way that's real, even if she's making a lot of mistakes along the way.

That's where the talk of building a new marriage comes in. You're absolutely right that your relationship with your wife is built on a rotten foundation. To continue to build on it won't work. That means that you two will have to start building a new relationship with a healthy foundation. Unfortunately I don't really know how that looks in practice because when I discovered my exWW's affair I burned the building down and walked away. However, there is one story here that might be of interest to you. There's another couple on this site, SouthAfricanMan and MrsSouthAfrica. Their threads might be helpful for you. In the end, he ended up deciding to reconcile but he needed to divorce her as part of his healing. I'm not sure if they got remarried or ever will, but I do recall that you made mention of doing something like that. If you decide that part of clearing away the rotten foundation of your marriage means that you need to legally put an end to it, then take that route. If your wife is truly committed to you because it's you she wants, she'll accept being stripped of the title of wife if it means staying with you and acknowledge that she never deserved it anyway. If you truly need some time away from her, then have her get an apartment somewhere nearby and work out how you'll share custody. There are even some cases where a BH divorced his WW and spent a few years healing and dating around while the WW spent that time single and working on self-improvement and eventually they got back together. Every BS has different healing needs, and it's the job of every WS to aid that healing however they can.

Take some time and think on this. Talk about it with your wife. Like I've said before, I believe that your wife is remorseful and is trying to better herself for her sake and for yours. I believe that she's also realizing just how fucked up she was and is and how much work she has ahead of her. Most waywards are not and never will be good candidates for reconciliation. I believe yours can be, and that if she remains diligent, she will be. However, that still leaves you eating the shit sandwich one way or another. If your wife stays the course, does the work, and comes out the other side as a woman who understands what loyalty, honesty, respect, and love actually look like and lives those values with you as your wife, will that be enough? Can you get to a place where you accept that the past can't be changed, but that you still love your wife enough and appreciate the work she's done enough that you can be happy staying with her? These aren't easy questions to answer and I'm sorry that you're even having to ponder them in the first place. You never should've been put in this position and that is entirely your wife's fault. Nonetheless, it's where you are and it's what you must ponder. I wish you nothing but the best outcome for you, whatever that may be.

Butfor

...what I wonder is how a separation will help his decision-making process...

When I read CBM’s posts I see a lot of hurt based on the past and current behavior of his W. My thought is that separating moves him away from the source of the pain and gives him space and time to think more clearly about his situation without getting derailed by additional injuries. It would give him clarity on what he wants and needs to heal, and as the injured party, that’s what I really care about.

CBM, I can empathize with the dynamics of your relationship because I’ve lived them with one significant exception: no admission of an A. Despite significant circumstantial evidence, which I ignored, I chose to believe her because I wanted to believe. This is so contrary to who I am in most other aspects of my life, it is hard for me to accept and probably why I continued to have nagging doubts. For a long time I tried to kill the doubts/pain in unhealthy ways (i.e., too much booze), and was beginning to suffer some health consequences of that poor coping mechanism. I decided I needed to face the problem and began a search for resources that included reading (and eventually posting) here. Based on what I’ve learned and embraced I am in a better situation than I was, but if I would have dealt with the situation earlier I would be even better off.

You are younger than me, and can avoid some of the bad decisions I’ve made. You could start over with a new woman (hell, I could too despite being much closer to the creepy old guy scenario BFTG outlines above ), you could build a new M with your W. I just hope you are in a better position than I am by the time you hit the second half of your 40s.

CBM, you were never her first choice and you aren't even now. She basically kept you at arm's length, giving you just enough attention to keep you hooked to have someone to fall back on.

You know of one affair so far, that doesn't mean there was only one. I don't think you're going to break up with her. She'd have to actually try to drive you away for that to happen.

"don't you even miss your kids?"

Out of curiosity, did you ever take that paternity test for the kids? People tell you it was "long ago" but it really wasn't.

Her flirting with your babysitter, her lusting after your best friend and possibly flirting with him as well and other stuff you might simply not know about wasn't in the past. It's very much in the presence.

She hasn't changed a lick since back then, she isn't acting remorseful but entitled and manipulative. Her thread alone speaks for itself, it's a masterpiece of manipulation and dragging people onto her side. Some who then came here to hound you and advocate reconciliation.

Years pass, you get married, and she starts growing up little by little and beginning to be able to appreciate and love who you are as a person rather than as a source of feelings, and eventually she reaches a point where her guilt in addition to her regard for you makes it impossible for her to hold in the big secret anymore and she confesses to her affair.

Except, that isn't true at all. She hasn't matured nor grown. Even now she's manipulating him, making all of this about herself and being upset at him quite regularly. She expects him to treat her decently, constantly accommodate her and "get over it", while she drops bombshell after bombshell on him with little regard or care how they affect him.

She's the same woman she was all along. Just older.

[This message edited by Marauder at 11:50 AM, March 13th (Wednesday)]

What follows is JMO:

And now we have this great big life to lose, instead of just a two year relationship that really was never built on much of anything than stubbornness (mine) and selfishness (hers), if we’re being honest.

Or you could see it as your selfishness (that is, desire for your W2b) vs. her inability/unwillingness to send you away.

I always hated and resented my wife for the hookup that happened right when I thought we were getting together, and I always harbored a lot of pain and anger around "the kiss" with her AP....

Whatever you do with your M, you have stuck yourself in the Victim role in a bunch of Drama Triangles.

You say you hate yourself for your previous co-d behavior vis a vis your W before you got married. The fact is, however, that's how you behaved, and you need to take responsibility for what you did. I don't think you're doing that yet. IMO, you're again taking on the Victim role in a Drama Triangle.

You're upset because she didn't fall in love with you until after she tried out others. More Victim. You need to accept that perhaps you wanted her more than she wanted you ... but it's also possible that you wanted her more in some ways, and she wanted you more in other ways.

She was an unfaithful GF in her early 20s. That's not unusual. It goes along with immaturity. She matured. She chose you.

I think you want to change the past. You can't. You can, however, change your view of the past.

Someone else could interpret the facts you present as: we were 2 clueless kids who put each other through hell, but in the end we got together and built a life full of love and joy.

IMO your best bet for a happy life is finding a good IC who will help you resolve the pain that is driving you. Once you start that work, I think you'll find it easy (or at least easier) to decide between D and R.

Right now, though, IMO you're attributing that pain to past actions by your W. You can D her - but you'll still be stuck in your Drama Triangles.

Remember: scientists now believe our brains don't mature until our mid-20s.

From your timeline, as I understand it, it may be that your W's immaturity came out in being unfaithful, and yours came out in co-dependence. It may be that your W stopped her infidelity as she matured.

Gently, my reading of your posts is that you haven't stopped your co-d yet. Keep working on that, and you'll get the clarity you need to make the best decision(s) for yourself.

I don't know whether D or R is best for you. Certainly you write of some current events that are troublesome.

I do think that your W's actions aren't the problem. The problem, I think, is in you, and that means the solution is in you, too. If you keep looking inside and have a good guide, you'll almost definitely find what you're looking for.

As I said, this is JMO.

[This message edited by sisoon at 12:04 PM, March 13th (Wednesday)]

Sir, having read your last comment, your current situation comes down to "settle for this or don't settle for this". Only you can make that decision.

[This message edited by LtCdrLost at 1:17 PM, March 13th (Wednesday)]

I find your story so interesting because of the similarities yet opposite results. You see my WH was the shy quiet guy who always felt that the girls didn’t appreciate him. He was smart and athletic and didn’t understand why women weren’t throwing themselves at him. On the other hand, I have a lot going for me and never had a problem getting attention, but key difference is that I don’t need other people to validate me. Long story short, I ended up making the first move on my WH which he eagerly reciprocated. I thought this was me picking my man rather than letting the man pick me, and my WH would see this as finally getting the girl. Honestly, I’d rather be chased than being the chaser, but I thought that was a small price to pay for this guy. The flip side of our beginning means a part of me feared he “picked” me because it was easy. Why put yourself on the line risking rejection when a great girl is right here? I think he liked me (although never effusive) but maybe he wanted the blond girl or exotic or whatever or maybe just more experience. When my WH had his A it showed me that what I feared was true - he’d settled.

Now, I struggle, not that I’m not good enough generally, but that I’m just not what he wanted. I know I could find someone to appreciate me, but that man won’t be the father of my children. Most of the time we’re happy, but it’s a great sadness in my life. I know I would have found someone else. I never believed in soul mates. I believed we’d chosen each other.

Not sure my musings help. I’ve chosen to stay, not because I am all happy, but because I see 2 choices that I don’t really like. Stay with my H, keep our family together, be happy most of the time, and accept the sadness. Or, break up the family (and accept that sadness), find someone else, and have more personal happiness. Either way I have to accept something unacceptable. The questions is which unacceptable path is more acceptable?

As Sisson has eloquently put it,the answer is within you. Again that gut feeling.

Sometimes when there are hard decisions, you need to weigh up the best option, check with your inner values,then move with purpose.

When you do this, the pathway becomes much more clearer.

Hi,

I admit, I have not read anything but the last two pages of this post, and have skimmed mostly for things you have said (meaning I have read very few of the replies). I have not read all of the posts in her thread either but I have followed hers more because we are both WW's. Between you posting the other day, and seeing some of the folks lobbing things at her from your posts, I decided to try and catch up a little bit. I will do so more later. But here are a couple of thoughts, just know they are based more out of following her, being a WS myself, etc.

First, know that the SI dynamic can both tremendously help but sometimes hurt when you are both here. Some fellow posters try and keep it separate and will only follow one and not the other. I think those people are rare, and that's why your threads both have pages and pages of replies, and perceptions of what the other says gets tracked in to the other's posts. Some couples say they won't read each other's posts, and I think that's probably rare that gets carried out as well.

So, in other words both of your posts will automatically be colored with the dynamic that their spouse may read it and also there gets to be a lot of side taking which can cause flare ups between the two of you. Just tread carefully and try and set this up for the both of you to your best benefit as a couple as you can. I have seen it work well here, and I have seen it go up in flames as well. Especially when both people's posts draw as much attention as the two of yours have. If that's been covered, I apologize, but I think someone should say it. Some journaling might be in order to supplement.

Secondly - the post you made about wanting to hear she wants you and doesn't want you to leave...I can't tell you how much I related to that. My H asked for a divorce about 9/10 months out. I didn't want to come off as begging him because I didn't feel that I had the right to do that. I felt like I should accept whatever outcome he felt was best for him. I almost lost my marriage because I took that position, when in reality ALL I wanted to do was beg him. SI folks came to my aid and told me that's what needed to happen. It felt counter-intuitive to me because I felt I should respect him and how he was feeling - it felt like by begging him I was making it about me. So, I wanted to at least chime in with that perspective.

Third - I have followed your wife because I relate to her. She has low self-worth and she carried herself through the marriage much in the same way I did. She deferred to you too much because in her mind that's what a good wife does, not because you held those expectations. She has recognized a lot of things about herself that I do feel are authentic and resonate with me. So, therefore, I know some of her work ahead. We are not the same people of course, and she will have different things to do but I can at least give you some ideas of what to look for if you ultimately decide to stay and work this out.

You need to see better boundaries - and that could even include with you. I had to learn to assert myself with my husband and that was uncomfortable work in the face of just confessing an affair. It made me worried he would see me as selfish, but to become whole those things were needed. When I say that it means I protected my time and energy more. I took care of myself more. These are signs that she is strengthening her self worth. This journey can be long. I am still on it. When people have good self-worth it's because they carry themselves with integrity, authenticity, they say no when they mean no, they make requests, they are assertive, they are not rattled easily by what others think, and the list goes on. I am convinced this core issue being strengthened is something universal to WS's and everything else is just branches on that tree.

A few posters have given you some good advice - try and focus more on your own healing while she is doing this work. I might be completely fooled but it sounds like she *is* working on it. There is going to be stumbling as she learns and practices/ I haven't yet found why she decided to confess, but typically when folks do this on their own it's a very good sign of self-motivation. Being able to detach to a certain degree would be helpful for you. I am not suggesting a separation, I am really just saying change your focus. My H planned what his life looked like with me, and without me. He took up new hobbies to get some space. He had things to focus on as to not try and manage me or to depend too much on progress he didn't know would or wouldn't be made.

I don't know if this helps or not, but your posts the other day on my thread were incredibly insightful, so I think you have good instincts and understand human nature. This will serve you well moving forward however you wish to proceed.

[This message edited by hikingout at 2:09 PM, March 13th (Wednesday)]

Cantbeme123- I can't convince you of anything, Hell, reading the way you phrased it makes me wonder if staying M'd is actually the "right" thing to do.

You've got a mountain of resentments (BTW I think are valid) and you need to work through those regardless. Right now the emotions are ruling the roost. Logic isn't. I get it, BTDT.

Your W IDK. She likely is a lot different person that she was. I second Sisoon that you've got a lot of co-dependence feeding all of these things. You are at odds with yourself right now. You really, really need to spend some time looking at that. You know what the "wise" choice is, yet something tells you it is not. Look for what that is. Is it your sense of Justice? Or is the feelings of inferiority rearing it's head. To me it sounds like fear being masked by anger. What is underneath that anger ?

My .02 and only my .02. I could be wrong.

It is about control. What do these resentments gain you ? To pushed the fear away for a little while. If she can't speak her mind then she can't make you feel inferior. In reality you are the only one to make yourself feel inferior. Maybe she can express them sometimes, but do you really take them at face value ? Or dismiss them? She likely takes it because of her guilt. You have a secret weapon to get your way in almost any scenario. You see value in that. Who wouldn't ? In her heart of hearts she knows you are more than she deserves. What do you do with that? Use to get your way or use it to let her build herself up? If you keep control she will never leave you right ? I think you get it doesn't work like that. Compliance breeds resentment. You get just how big resentments can get don't you. Does making her resent you make yours go away ? I doubt it.

My main point is she is now (hopefully) trying with all she can muster to be the wife that you deserve. She might not be there yet, but she clearly wants that. Everyday she moves closer and closer to being everything you've ever wanted. She wants a chance to atone for the past and it will amaze you what someone seeking redemption will do to make that happen.

Do you see value in that ? Do you want a weak wife who agrees with you all of the time ? What if your take on something is wrong ? You'd want someone who would steer you away from making a bad and irreversible decision, right ? Maybe her input shows you a better path that is beyond what you've expected.

It is funny how things change. Back then you pursued her and felt inferior. Now she feels inferior and is having to pursue you. I think you can relate to what she is dealing with now, right ? You can do whatever you want with that, but maybe you change by showing her a different better way today. It feels good to use leverage for the positive too. It sets a good example for your kids so they grow up to healthy adults. Be the quarterback of your team (family)

Look I've spent way too much of my life reading the ugliest stories humankind has to offer. No one is 100% innocent in any of these stories. Not even me. I've done wrong too. I say that to help you focus on one thing. We can't change the past we can only make our peace with it. If that means Ding your W so be it. However a WS that is given a chance and really fixes their shit can be beyond an awesome spouse. How do I know this? My W became more than I ever could have hoped for in a W. It was not easy on me or her. It downright sucked donkey balls at times. Somehow we both fixed our own shit (IC mostly). At the point we were stable we had another choice to make. What did we want ? Did we share the same goals, hopes and dreams? We did even after all that pain. It is why we found each other in the first place. We were no longer co-dependent. That helped a ton. In reality, emotionally, everyone involved would have moved to a D just fine. However a D did not line up with what both our goals were for the short and long term. Kids and finances were factors too, and they should be BTW, but our vision for 10, 20, 30, 40 years from now looks eerily the same.

The thing that we realized is that we had a chance to build again. Start fresh and have a M that worked for both of us. Granted she had to bring remorse and I had to bring grace, but we found a way that works for both of us most of the time. It was a M we wanted to be a part of versus one we had to be a part of. I never understood the difference until the last few years. A M you want to be in is so, so much better. Today it hurts, but what about when that hurt fades into the background ? What can you do to help it into the background. It sounds like your W would do just about thing to help make that happen. Not many other people would give you that right now. Think about it. you have so much more power than you realize right now. you've got everything, but a map. IC can help give you that map.

At the end of the Day I got a vastly superior W and she got a vastly superior husband. I am not so naive to know that one day I also might need grace. I know my W always has my happiness in the forefront of her mind and she understands the debt she owes me. I won't ever call that debt in, but knowing it is there somewhere allows me to make my peace with my past.

I have to agree with so much of what numb&dumb said, especially about not being able to change the past. One of my favorite quotes is "Life can only be understood backwards but must be lived forwards." You have perspective now that you couldn't see back then but you still can't change what happened or how the two of you came to be.

About a year before DDay, I started to question my marriage and choice of spouse. I remember thinking, Maybe what I wanted at 28 is not what I want at 41? Maybe what you and your WW wanted and/or needed from one another when you first met is completely different than what you want now. But can your wife be the spouse you want now? If the answer is yes, then it will require learning how to accept the past and also offering her grace. I do try to remain grounded in the present as my H is such a better partner than ever before. And I have changed too -I am astounded that I settled for a mediocre marriage for so long. Maybe you can find peace in a new marriage that is better than before as you would be choosing each other from a completely different place than when you first met.

To me it seems like her affair exposed a deep insecurity about your relationship. You need her to demonstrate desire for you. I also wonder, if some of the anger you feel is directed at yourself for refusing the take off the rose colored glasses and/or refusing to accept the writing on the wall?

But my advice to you is that the present is more important than the past. Life is not linear. The house can stand if the foundation is shot as long as the floor you are occupying is square.

@Evolving. I have to completely disagree with him. His wife isn't actually improving, she's going through the motions. Even her thread screams "trying to get people's recognition and effort" rather than genuinely attempting to better herself. Hell, she's keeping important things out of her narration, such as her flirting with the Babysitter, lusting after his BS and her callous behaviour.

She's talking about how THEY need to heal, THEY need to work, etc. What she's great at is influencing people and winning them over to the detriment of CBM.

Everyday she moves closer and closer to being everything you've ever wanted.

Actually, every day of their marriage and relationship prior to it. She has moved further away from that and has acted in a way that benefits exactly one person, her.

His wife's issues aren't new nor are they over and in her thread, she is already laying the foundation and excuses for future deceptions and engaging in slow and insidious blame shifting. She's so good at it, people are calling CBM a mad hatter when he absolutely doesn't deserve that.

I wanted to be the guy who got the girl, for once

You are me, man. You are me five years ago, and you really need help. Are you in IC? Do you really want to get to the bottom of your issues?

You need to do this on your own. All of the problems you listed in your relationship synopsis are problems that you still have. They haven't gone away, and they haven't abated. You are waiting for her to love you the way that you deserve, to fill you with self-worth and meaning. You are literally doing the same thing that she did in her multiple infidelities, and it is no more healthy for you. If you haven't, read Codependent No More. Then pick up literally anything by Pia Mellody on love addiction.

Your WW can't fix any of this for you. As frustrated as you are about her emotional unavailability, you chose her, and you need to figure out why. What is it about you that brought her into your life. Why are you actively looking for someone like that. In my case, I was looking for someone to provide me with the emotional spark that I was lacking. I don't share the blame for her cheating, but my XWW doesn't share my blame for choosing someone like her.

Once you start to really dig, and deal with your shadow-self (the parts that you don't want to admit exist), you can start making progress. If your WW doesn't do her own work (hint: right now she is NOT, but she doesn't know that) you will outgrow her quickly.

I lived what you are living. It gets better. There is someone out there for you, but she sure as hell doesn't look like your WW looks now. If she wants to join you on this journey, great. If not, move on.

No one else can do this for you.

Evolving. I have to completely disagree with him. His wife isn't actually improving, she's going through the motions. Even her thread screams "trying to get people's recognition and effort" rather than genuinely attempting to better herself. Hell, she's keeping important things out of her narration, such as her flirting with the Babysitter, lusting after his BS and her callous behaviour.

I could not agree more with this statement. She's more concerned about the appearance of accountability than actual accountability.

@Evolving. I have to completely disagree with him. His wife isn't actually improving, she's going through the motions. Even her thread screams "trying to get people's recognition and effort" rather than genuinely attempting to better herself. Hell, she's keeping important things out of her narration, such as her flirting with the Babysitter, lusting after his BS and her callous behaviour.

She voluntarily confessed to this stuff, years after the fact, in a circumstance where CBM had zero evidence. She could have plausibly denied it and taken it to her grave. Instead, she put her neck on the chopping block, and as far as I can tell the only motivation was to catalyze a higher level of authenticity in the relationship. She literally put herself at his mercy. I don't call that "going through the motions" nor attention-seeking.