SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Oh please. Confessions at such late a date aren't for the benefit of the BS. She didn't suddenly have an epiphany and decided he deserved the truth after she withheld it from him all this time and kept him from making informed choices.

She was comfortable in her relationship, she was convinced he wouldn't walk and would roll over once again as he had done dozens of times in the past. So she felt it was time to assuage her own guilty conscience convinced nothing bad would come of this.

The way she writes in her own thread, how she spins her narrative, leaves out critical information is somewhere between a PR Department and a Politicians approach to these things. This woman hasn't changed a lick and I see zero intention on her part to change. If anything she got better at manipulating people.

What she seeks is validation, for people to see her in a positive light and give her positive feedback and she'll do whatever necessary to get it. Flirting with other people, lying by ommissions thus making her husband look worse and unreasonable, deception and general skullduggery.

Hell, she's good enough at this game, she's drawing large parts of a website in where people regularly deal with deceivers, liars, cheaters and worse. Winning them over and turning them against her husband.

Your WW can't fix any of this for you. As frustrated as you are about her emotional unavailability, you chose her, and you need to figure out why. What is it about you that brought her into your life. Why are you actively looking for someone like that. In my case, I was looking for someone to provide me with the emotional spark that I was lacking. I don't share the blame for her cheating, but my XWW doesn't share my blame for choosing someone like her.

Once you start to really dig, and deal with your shadow-self (the parts that you don't want to admit exist), you can start making progress. If your WW doesn't do her own work (hint: right now she is NOT, but she doesn't know that) you will outgrow her quickly.

I lived what you are living. It gets better. There is someone out there for you, but she sure as hell doesn't look like your WW looks now. If she wants to join you on this journey, great. If not, move on.

No one else can do this for you.

This is so spot on.

Do internalize the decisions you made. And figure out why.

Do not internalize what she had done. Or her character flaws.

CBM:

Please read Sisson's post on the last page repeatedly until it sinks in.

Thanks to everyone for the input, on both sides. I really appreciate it. Yesterday was an awful day, but it ended on a good note and today has (had) been better. I have a new story to relate and would like to solicit thoughts on this as well.

Flawed texted me earlier today and said something like "thinking of you and how connected we felt last night". I texted back something like, "can you come home early? I'd like to connect again." She said yes, and so we both came home early to "connect".

Fast forward to being home, laying in bed, both naked. We're chatting, but it's productive and healthy. We're discussing recent therapy sessions and I say something to her like "you told me previously you want to stay with me even if it means being punished the rest of your life. What does that even mean? What punishment do you even have in mind?"

She says, "I don't know... being called a slut or a whore, I guess." I say, "do you really think I want to just call you a slut for the rest of your life? That's not my idea of a happy marriage."

She says, "well, I would like to request you stop calling me names like that."

This rubs me the wrong way, because to me, I barely do this anymore. In the first few weeks post d-day, I called her a ton of names, and frequently. Since then, I only ever call her names when I have an outburst, and the frequency of those decreases every month. Our 5 month d-day anniversary is coming up next week, so this is all still fresh, but my outbursts really only happen now in response to things she says or does that hurt me (see my post from a few days ago).

I say to her, "Ok. I can try. I have been trying. But I can't promise I will never call you another name when I'm upset."

She says, "well, I really request you don't. You can choose to be mad, but you can also choose not to call me names. You can be mad and just say, 'I'm so fucking mad right now.' You don't need to call me a slut."

My response was, "...and you could have chosen not to cheat. But you did, and you acted like a slut while doing it, grinding on him at clubs, fucking without condoms, hooking up in a bathroom, not to mention simply the act of cheating and fucking someone else while with me. I'm sorry, but that's just the truth, and it makes me angry. When I feel hurt and angry, how slutty you acted is at the top of my mind."

She repeats herself again, "I displayed slutty behavior, you're right, but I am making a gentle request not to call me that. It hurts my feelings when you call me names."

Me: "Yes. You did. And you have completely disassociated from that behavior. I can't believe that you are asking me to set boundaries on myself right now. I have gotten better and better in controlling my anger. I improve every month. In fact, I only get angry in response to you triggering me with words or actions. Why did you feel the need to ask this of me? I'm already trying hard not to do it. Why are we talking about your feelings yet again? And why are we talking about this instead of having sex, yet again ruining a positive experience?"

She says something like, "stay with me. I'm here, right now, I'm not a slut, I love you, I want to be with you, I'm just making a gentle request."

I say, "I know you are not a slut. But you WERE a slut. Have you really disassociated so much you can't see that? Think of what you did, and how you did it. Do you think the years that have passed absolve you from how you acted? Can you say out loud, "what I did was slutty. I acted like a slut." Please do that for me."

She did. I felt pretty shitty about this, but I honestly thought she wouldn't be able to. I get so incredibly mad when I feel like the 12 years of lying has caused her to completely lose touch of the reality of what she did and who she was. I really feel like she is completely unable to relate or step back into the shoes of the person she was, while the person she was has invaded my every thought.

I said to her, "I think you are being unreasonable. I think you are making this all about you. I think the least you can do is put up with the occasional name calling and just deal with it, because you should understand why I feel the need to do it. You should understand your behavior back then warranted it. It's an accurate fucking description of who you were. If I was flying off the handle left and right, or doing it excessively or for no reason, then sure, I could see it. But I maybe have an outburst 2-3 times per month, and it gets better every month, and I think it's pretty fucking clear I have been trying really hard and getting better. Why did you feel the need to ask for this? Asking implied you think I'm not trying. Asking makes it all about you and your feelings."

I am wanting to solicit thoughts on here about this. The honest truth is that I will say something like "you were being a slut for him" or call her a piece of shit like I did in my last post. The honest truth in my mind is that she was. I know it's mean, but it's accurate, and it's how I vent. I do not call her names out of the blue. I do not call her names every time I'm in a bad mood. The name calling comes out when I feel like I'm at my wit's end because she is saying something hurtful to me, or being selfish, or communicating poorly, in a way that hurts me and makes me feel like staying with her is impossible. That frustration does come out in name calling.

Is it reasonable to ask a BS to not name call? If you're a BS, did you, and for how long? Am I being unfair thinking that she is asking too much of me? Am I wrong feeling like the fact that she had to ask and say that annoyed me and makes me feel like she still doesn't get it and is still being selfish? 2x4s welcome, but so is commiseration...

CBM I am on your side. I think you’ve been dealt a shitty hand and with the truth being out recently you are still struggling with it. But I’ve faced bullying as a child and even in the work place and I can say that sometimes words are harder to take than physical abuse. You have every right to be angry but stop calling her a slut if that particular word hurts. I can tell you from experience that abusive words hurt for longer. Not swearing might help your healing too. Maybe intense workout might help in getting rid of that anger.

Given the mental state of trauma that a BS is thrust into, I think it is understandable, and maybe even reasonable for a WS to endure name calling.............for a period of time. I don't know how long that is. One month, six months, a year.....I don't know. But there is a reasonable limit of time a WS could hope to expect to hear it.

Having said that, I also think that the degree to which a WS demonstrates remorse, empathy, and contrition would of itself limit the length of time a BS that wants R would continue the name calling.

I see examples of BS's that want R and want to move out of the trauma that accompanies name calling, but are stuck on large part due to the limited showing of empathy and remorse by their WS. If you feel she is not yet fully connecting with empathy for you, I can understand why you may still be in the occasional name calling mode.

If she knows what you expect in terms of demonstrating remorse and empathy, and she is doing what you expect (e.g., thinking of you first, saying the right things at the right times, is focused on your healing and how you need it), then you may want to consider her request to describe her behaviors without labeling her.

If on the other hand, if you are not satisfied she is showing empathy in the way you need it, and you are sure that she understand what that is, then it will be hard to stop the negative adjectives. Authentic, deep, sincere empathy has miraculous healing power. Without it, the wounds just continue to ooze.....and from that the anger that spawns the name calling.

[This message edited by DIFM at 6:42 PM, March 14th (Thursday)]

It hurts her feelings. I'm sure it does. She doesn't like her feelings being hurt. Never mind that a BS at 5 months out is constantly feeling hurt. I mean,wouldn't you like it if you're feelings were no longer hurting?

If you were a year or more out,her request would make more sense. Most BS's dont even hit the rage phase until 6 months out. At 5 months, the shock is just starting to wear off.

I know I'm in the minority, but I agree with a lot of what Marauder has posted. I dont post on her thread because of it.

Personally I'm of the opinion that she needs to just deal with it until it's out of your system. She spent your pre-marriage relationship acting like a slut/whore/piece of shit/whatever else you've called her and the simple truth of the matter is that even though it was a long time ago for her and she feels like she's a different person now, this is all fresh for you and she has to accept that and understand that she's going to be viewed with the same suspicion, the same anger, and the same contempt as if she still was the shitty cheating girlfriend she was all those years ago.

Just remind her that this is yet another consequence of burying her lies.

It hurts her feelings. I'm sure it does. She doesn't like her feelings being hurt. Never mind that a BS at 5 months out is constantly feeling hurt. I mean,wouldn't you like it if you're feelings were no longer hurting?

Other than the implication that I wasn't already trying to stop doing it, this is the other part that really pissed me off. It just felt so selfish. Here I am trapped in all this pain with no ability to get away from it, and yes it releases itself in anger sometimes, and there she is asking me ever so politely to stop expressing anger with name calling because it hurts her feelings. Wouldn't it be nice if I could say to her politely, "I have a gentle request that you go back in time and don't fuck AP," and she could just do it and fix my hurt feelings.

@masti - I'm off to the gym right now

@DIFM - I feel like something is missing - empathy sometimes, other times simply the actual reality that she really was the person she was back then. I feel like a remorseful WW 5 months out from actually doing the deeds wouldn't be selfish enough to request their BS stop name calling. I feel like the fear of everything falling apart would inspire a remorseful WW to understand it and cope with it while their BS heals. I think my wife continues to truly lack that fear. She's already thinking ahead to the healed marriage and acts that way.

Are you seriously trying to make the case for why it's okay to verbally abuse your wife???

My WH did things which were beyond the pale, things I witnessed in video and photos even, things which still provoke a visceral trauma reaction in me even now, four years later. And he did these things, not before we were married, not when he was young and unformed, but after I'd invested THIRTY years of my life with him. All my youth, most of my vigor... gone. But I have NEVER abused him. Not once.

Not physically, and not verbally.

Abuse isn't okay, no matter how compelled by our own turbulent emotions we may feel. My advice would be to take this issue up with your therapist. If your anger is out of your control, there are anger management techniques which can help you.

OF COURSE she wants you to stop calling her a slut. And she has that right since YOU are still in the marital bed. You ask things of her to help you heal, so why can she not make this request of you? Even as a BS, you have to pick your battles. You are making an effort and you should have left it at "I will continue to do my best to cease with the profanities".

I also think she is manipulative. Her thread is so blatant, it almost seems scripted. Regardless, it is your choice to R or D. You don't ask her to come home early, make love to her, enjoy it and then call her a slut.

[This message edited by 66charger at 12:07 AM, March 15th (Friday)]

CBM:

Stop using her prior shitty behavior to justify your own.

It is straight out of the Karpman Drama Triangle.

Is that really the man you want to be? Really?

[This message edited by farsidejunky at 11:08 PM, March 14th (Thursday)]

Infidelity is a valid "excuse" for saying things you would not normally say. Pain is pain and it is ridiculous for anyone to expect a BS to react perfectly when the WS did not. I did not curse my X,however i did burn the house down, left and stayed gone. Silence was my dagger and it killed her.

I get the why, but If you wish to continue intimate relations, don't fight this battle.

[This message edited by 66charger at 12:40 AM, March 15th (Friday)]

Just to be clear, I don't walk around casually calling my wife a slut, nor did I purposely initiate the conversation around name calling while laying naked in bed. I don't call her names every chance I get, or every time we argue, or even when the sadness around what she did washes over me.

It only happens when we have major melt downs (brought on by something she said or did) and I feel completely misunderstood, unheard, unempathized for, and hopeless for our future. Those feelings bring out my anger and make me feel like what she did back then has ruined my life, and then something inside of me wants to hurt her like she has hurt me, and name calling is all I have. I know it's not healthy, I know it has to stop, I am already working on it and have been since d-day.

Abuse isn't okay, no matter how compelled by our own turbulent emotions we may feel. My advice would be to take this issue up with your therapist. If your anger is out of your control, there are anger management techniques which can help you.

My wife called me abusive in the week after d-day, when my anger would boil over frequently and many conversations did end in me calling her names. Frankly, it was one of the most hurtful things she did to me, it set me way back in my early recovery. How someone can expect a spouse to handle an affair discovery without a lot of anger is beyond me.

My anger is completely in control under normal circumstances, I am not an angry person by nature and I can control it even under a lot of stress. With this, I have found my breaking point, but still it only comes out rarely. I also don't say to her, "You slut!" or "you are such a piece of shit", in other words I don't use present tense. It is directed to her past self: "you were a slut for him", "you were such a shitty girlfriend, treated me like such shit", etc. The only time I can remember using present tense is after the incident where she said to me, "don't you even miss your kids a little bit?" In my anger after that comment, I said at some point to her, "you are a mean fucking bitch." That was not a high point in CBM history.

Is that really the man you want to be? Really?

No, of course not. I hate guys who treat their wives like shit. I don't like my outbursts. I am actively working on resolving them, and they are becoming less and less frequent with time.

My argument is not, "I should be allowed to abuse my wife". That's ridiculous. My argument is that given where I am in dealing with this, given that my behavior continues to improve, given that it's not at all who I am in my normal nature, and given that her actions and abuse are what has led to my own outbursts, I think it's offensive and insensitive for her to have asked what she asked.

She proved through a poly that she's been true since that time. Through her actions since D day, she's showing her love for you.

I say this gently but maybe you should search inside of yourself to see if your maybe using the betrayal as controlling element to have her continue to be submissive. Personally, I think you'll enjoy her love and affection more if it doesn't comes from a place of of guilt or shame.

My argument is that given where I am in dealing with this, given that my behavior continues to improve, given that it's not at all who I am in my normal nature, and given that her actions and abuse are what has led to my own outbursts, I think it's offensive and insensitive for her to have asked what she asked.

You think it was insensitive of her to ask you to treat her with respect?

CBM, your rationalization and minimization in this is you trying to justify abuse.

What she did has nothing to do with what you are doing.

At this point, if I were going to advise anyone to do anything, it would be for your wife to separate from you temporarily until you can get your head on straight.

Stop the rationalization.

Stop the minimization.

Stop being a dick.

You have agency in this. You're deliberately avoiding it to justify retribution.

Simply put, that is the behavior pattern of an abuser.

[This message edited by farsidejunky at 8:17 AM, March 15th (Friday)]

I suppose I could lend something you could actually do after excoriating you in that last post.

You want something simple you can do that will start you in the right direction?

Give apologies without qualifications.

No more "I'm sorry, but...".

@farside - you seem to really think of me as a crap person, you only ever respond to my posts where I admit some fault of mine or a negative thought and then jump all over me for it. I'm pretty tired of it, honestly. I think my wife and I do need to separate, so I agree with you there. I struggle to treat her fairly right now and I suppose this is just another example.

I do think your response implying I am abusive is way off base. You say this "fits the behavior pattern of an abuser", and I would say an abuser creates a victim complex where none should exist. I am not doing that. You seem to be really into victim blaming and most of your posts on here are all about telling me how much better I need to act and comport myself. You call it "challenging me", but you do it without any semblance of compassion or context.

I may be "playing the role of a victim", but I am also actually a victim. I just found out my whole life is a lie, that my wife cheated and did so in ways that make me think less of her as a person, that other people at my wedding knew I had been cheated on and said nothing, and on and on. Why does this context seem not to matter at all to you, all that matters is my "verbal abuse", which by the way is calling a spade a spade?

I can't help but feel that it's more proof that her 12 years of lying "worked", that there is no one for me to be mad at other than ghosts, and I need to accept the past, judge my wife on who she is today, and heal and move on. For you and others who read my wife's posts and see her as the good person that she is in the world of today, it's an easy choice. She didn't cheat on you, or lie to you, or have kids with you while hiding this monstrous skeleton in her closet. You also don't see the verbal "abuse" that she gives me, the abuse that comes in the form of 'I said it but I didn't mean it', time and time again. Things like asking me, "do you even want to be a dad", "don't you even miss your kids", "accidentally" mentioning my nerdy hobbies that embarrass me to new friends, etc.

I know your response to this is that I am yet again justifying or rationalizing my own behavior, and maybe you're right. But at what point does it become warranted? When is not an excuse, but a reason?

@Jsmart - Thank you. That's a much nicer way to put it. That's the kind of challenging I can appreciate.

I don't think your wife was out of line asking you to stop saying she was a slut. However, I think she needs to understand that it is coming from a place of deep hurt.

Some are calling you abusive for the name calling and IMO, I find it ridiculous. Given it happens in extreme hurt/anger and you're only 5 months in, it seems pretty normal to me. It's not like you're saying "Hey slut, bring me a sandwich" 24/7.

I also believe that your wife is simply going through the motions and trying to spin her narrative so that she seems to be getting it. She only admitted the affair because she figured you wouldn't leave her. Why do the actual work of dealing with her betrayal since you won't be leaving? I see her continuing with her lack of empathy, being selfish, and just going with the flow until you "get over it".