SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Along with the Linda MacDonal bookbook these podcast will help you to feel validated in what your are going through mentally and emotionally, as well as help articulate to your wife to help her understand what you are going through as well -

Part 1

http://theaddictedmind.com/episode-21-relational-betrayal-trauma-marnie-breecker/

Part 2

http://theaddictedmind.com/episode-22-relational-betrayal-trauma-marnie-breecker-part-2/

Even though Marnie Breecke is referring to a male sex addict in these podcasts, what the spouse or partner goes through with the described stages is pretty much universal regardless of the type of infidelity or gender.

[This message edited by Jduff at 10:47 AM, November 2nd (Friday)]

One aspect I think you need to explore with yourself and with her is that there was the PA she admitted to and then there was the ongoing lying about it, that happened to your face for years. A lot of folks here say what hurt the M the most were the lies. You asked, repeatedly for the truth. She chose to repeatedly lie to you and keep you in the dark. You weren't asking for her sexual history with prior partners before you got together. You were dating and living together at the time, in a relationship that you thought was exclusive.

Lying for years, to your face, every time you asked about it.

Yes, this bothers me a lot and I have asked her about it a lot. Her answer is that she lied when I first "caught" her because she knew the truth would end our relationship, and she loved me and didn't want to lose me. She says she knew in her heart that she would never stray again and she was on a path to being a better person. It was a selfish lie, no doubt about it, and I question the truth of the flowery picture she paints, as though she magically became a better person instantly after being caught.

What I do understand is that once she made the first lie, I think it did become both harder to come clean and easier to continue to lying. I asked about it less and less over the year, and in fact me asking about it two weeks ago was probably the first time since our kids were born that I have asked (3.5 years).

The sense I have is that she lied to save her ass early on and that she really did want to be with me (or she would have left with the other guy anyway, right?). She kept lying because she felt trapped and still was afraid of losing me. She probably buried the event completely after some number of years and I largely stopped asking. Finally, when I asked this last time, she felt safe enough to come out with the truth and ease her guilt.

The sense I have is that she lied to save her ass early on and that she really did want to be with me (or she would have left with the other guy anyway, right?)

Hence, like I said earlier, I think she wanted another roll in the hay with some other guy while having you waiting in the wings for marriage.

Her answer is that she lied when I first "caught" her because she knew the truth would end our relationship

Yup. You know what else would probably make you leave the relationship? If instead of her fucking around behind your back with this OM she instead tells you "Hey, I'm kind of into this guy at work. Let's take a relationship break while I explore things with him...and you can go explore things with other women...", and let's say you did and actually found another woman that rocked your socks like no other woman has before, and you tell your then fiance, "Thanks! I never would have met my soulmate had it not been for you swell idea of a relationship break! Good luck with that other guy!"

So, she got to keep dibs on you in a round about way while still partner "shopping" around.

I like the advice someone once posted here in a similar situation. He told his wife he was going to divorce her and demote her to girlfriend. If things went well he would leave the door open to get married again down the road. This way she felt the consequences but the children still had both parents still living together. Just something to kick around.

Jman

How exactly would this work? Do you mean to actually go through with a divorce but remain as roommates/co-parents? Not sure I could make that work.

CantBeMe123

Yes, you actually get a divorce but everything else stays the same.

Reasons to do it:

It helps you heal. It’s like a person committing a crime, doing their time in jail and then it’s over. Less reason to bring the crime up again or think about it. The price was paid.

What would fester is having a great family time and looking at your wife. She’s happy and is in the exact same place she would be if she had never cheated. You feel like a fool. But if you’re divorced you just look at your happy girlfriend without resentment.

It also sends her a message about how bad you consider cheating to be.

Reason not to do it:

If your wife doesn’t work and needs your health insurance. If she does work you might save on taxes by not paying the marriage penalty.

CantBeMe123,

I am sorry that you find yourself here, but I hope that the number of responses show you that you are very far from being alone. In fact, there are more than sixty thousand members of the Surviving Infidelity forums, all of whom have been affected by infidelity. So this place can be a huge resource for you as you try to make sense of your ever-changing feelings.

Everyone in my life says the same thing: "it was so long ago, she was young (early 20s at the time), you weren't married, you need to forgive and forget". It just doesn't feel that simple to me.

Being told what you should feel is the equivalent of being told that your actual feelings are invalid. They are not. As many others have said, your wife has had twelve years to process what she did, while you have just had it sprung on you.

What those around you should be saying is, “How are you feeling? Is there anything we can do to help?” I am not blaming them for telling you to pretend it never happened, because they are not counsellors, and they may never have been the victims of infidelity. They cannot be expected to instantly know the right things to say and do.

From reading your posts, it seems to me that a big issue that is affecting you is the question of respect. While the original infidelity may have occurred twelve years ago, and been an obvious act of disrespect in itself, it is perfectly natural for you to feel like your wife piled further acts of disrespect on top of it by lying about the cheating at the time, and continuing to keep you in the dark when you made your decision to marry her, and for the entirety of the marriage.

That is what you need your wife to understand; that you feel like you have been played by her and disrespected since before you were married. She needs to know that so she can understand what she needs to do to help you, and in terms of her own personal development.

To counterbalance the negative feelings that you must be experiencing, particularly if you feel like your wife has ‘managed’ you or even tricked you, I think it would be good to take that thinking one stage further, and consider her intentions.

From the perspective of having an honest relationship, she did all of the wrong things, beginning with cheating. However, she made a conscious decision to be with you after her affair with her co-worker, and her motivations for that must surely have consisted of more than just a desire to make a fool of you or to exploit you for her own gain.

Her cheating was terrible, and it raises questions of her integrity, but she may have been too emotionally immature at the time to have understood the need for complete honesty in a relationship. Particularly if that honesty might destroy her relationship with you.

It can be argued that her decision to lie about the affair was selfish, and robbed you of the opportunity to dump her. However, it is worth going one step further and considering what her motivations may have been.

What she was trying to achieve was to be with you and not let a shitty, pointless fling destroy something better that had the chance of a good future. It was definitely an attempt at damage limitation on your wife’s part, but was it a malicious act, done with the intention of causing you harm?

The point is, she did not hide her infidelity because she thought you were a fool, a dope, a sap, her Plan B, a stooge, or any of the unpleasant thoughts that may be running through your mind. She would only have done that if she gets a sadistic kick out of cruelty, or she is a psychopath, capable of lying without any feelings at all. She deceived you because she wanted to be with you, and because she knew what she had done was bad and wrong.

Had she lied or kept silent with the intention of marrying you, murdering you, and running off with your fortune, it would have been a wicked deception. As things turned out in real life, it looks like she had the opposite intention, which was to commit to you, be a good wife, and bear your children. So her intentions were not malicious.

Unfortunately, her concealment of the truth has brought her character and the basis of the entire relationship into question, and she is going to have to work hard to restore your faith in her. And that in itself is dependent on whether or not you want to offer her that opportunity.

Communication at a time like this can be difficult and emotional in such a situation, so perhaps you could try writing down your thoughts, as you have done here, and passing them to your wife for her to read. Something others have tried is to write out a whole series of questions, which they have either asked their spouses face-to-face, or let them respond in writing.

I think it is essential that you do not hide your feelings and anxieties from your wife, because if they go undiscussed and unaddressed then it will simply be more concealment (and that is what brought both of you to this point). It would be extremely unhealthy to do try and pretend this has not happened, but that does not mean that you cannot get past this and restore balance to the marriage.

It is also essential for your wife to understand that it is absolutely crucial that she answers all questions completely, and not minimise, conceal, or sugar-coat anything. That she has to stop trying to ‘manage’ or control the outcome by minimising or concealing, because the only thing that is going to give you any faith in her is total, complete openness and honesty. It sounds like you have been doing a good job of getting that across to her, and you must continue to do that.

There is a term used in these forums called ‘trickle truth’, which is the process where a spouse who has cheated releases nuggets of information in spaced bursts, a little at a time. It can be absolutely fatal for reconciliation, because it means that a betrayed spouse, who is trying to adjust to what they believe is the whole truth, suddenly has to go back to square one and begin all over again. It means they are hit with fresh unpleasant discoveries repeatedly, and it makes many people give up. So please explain that to your wife.

Many, many people in these forums have said that what destroyed their marriages was not infidelity, but dishonest actions that followed its discovery. Your wife is clearly an intelligent woman if she has a degree in psychology, but she needs to abandon any thoughts of being clever enough to manage this process. Concealing her actions many years ago was not a sound foundation for an honest relationship, and she needs to be told that she now has an opportunity to make that right by being completely honest now.

With a polygraph, you can only ask three or four questions, so they need to be your most important concerns in all of this. However, that does not mean that you cannot ask a thousand other questions outside of the polygraph if you need to. It sounds like you do not believe her statements about the length of the affair, or what happened during it, so as others have suggested, you should ask your wife to create a detailed timeline of her affair.

It is human nature to try and minimise bad things, but your wife needs to understand that this not the time to do that. “I can’t remember” or “I was drunk/high” are pretty lame, because she will know when she started working in that retail place, and when she left, so she will have a good idea at what point in her time there she started her affair with the co-worker. Was it soon after she started, midway through, or towards the end. It is not difficult to recall that kind of thing, even if it is impossible to recall a specific date after this length of time has passed.

Now, here’s something that you can try that will help your wife feel safer to be open and honest.

Explain to her that you want to save the marriage, and that what you are looking for is not reasons to end things, but to continue them. That even if she reveals some unpleasant details, it will actually be beneficial, because what you are looking for is ugly, ragged honesty from her, not an airbrushed, minimised, incomplete account. That the issue is not the details themselves, but the honesty that the revelation of the details demonstrates.

As things stand, she may feel that she is in a ‘damned if you do, damned if you don’t’ situation, so if you can express to her that all is not lost, and that honesty offers the chance of redemption, that at least can give her some sense of which direction to head in. We must remember that if we ask for the complete truth, we have to make people feel safe to give it to us.

Tell her that what you want is to save the marriage by finally putting it onto a foundation of honesty, and that if she works with you to achieve that, it will be good for both of you. That is a positive message to give her. Hopefully it will make her see that all is not lost, and she can still save things if she can just be brave enough to stop minimising and be honest. I think that will be an important thing for her, if she is saying things like nothing she does will ever fix things.

I really hope that you can work this out, because it sounds like the marriage has been very good.

@M1965 Thank you so, so incredibly much for your post. I posted on here to vent, to find sympathy, but also to find hope. I feel that many posters here are very jaded and see divorce as the only option.

I would like to reconcile, but I want to do it on my terms, without feeling that I did it under pressure from friends or loved ones, and without losing my own principles and beliefs or my sense of self. It is a very tricky road for me.

I appreciate your words, your honest assessment of the situation, and your advice for seeking further truth. I am going to email her right now and put it just like you did: "help me continue our marriage". I like that a lot.

If you don't know his name, that's a problem. She should tell you exactly who he is. How can you be sure she hasn't had contact with him,if you don't even know who he is? How can you be sure he isn't someone you know?

This ^^^^^^^^^^

So much this.

You need his name. If her infidelity is not a dealbreaker, then her refusing to give you his name needs to be. She's choosing protecting him over healing you. That cannot be acceptable.

[This message edited by GoldenR at 12:51 PM, November 2nd (Friday)]

It's still all about her, she's still protecting OM and herself by not revealing who he is, demand a complete timeline of the A and of course his name, like others say, how can you be sure NC FOREVER is established if you don't even know who he is, I would demand it TODAY, no questions asked, she's been dishonest long enough, it not, she's still betraying you and you should file for D.

Usually the question is will the WS actually follow through and take the polygraph once they said they'd take it.

In this case I'm curious if CantBeMe will actually follow through on having his WS take the polygraph given he doesn't even want to know the OM name as well as stating he would have preferred his wife not say anything about this at all but rather "take it to her grave".

Your wife didn't tell you per your own words because "she knew the truth would end our relationship".

CantBeMe you're going to do whatever it is you're going to do with this and NOBODY here on SI has the power to sway you to D or R (and rightfully so).

That said you're wife has flat out shown you that her agenda and needs TRUMPS anything else and she'll do anything to accomplish this (like LIE to you for TWELVE yrs).

I know you want to R (and that's fine) but before you decide this you need to find out what you're forgiving because you have NO IDEA!! This is why it's been knawing at you for years and why you're here on SI after finding out.

Follow through on the Polygraph even if she gives you a parking lot confession.

Also you NEED to know who this OM is. It's already been pointed out to you what if it's someone you know and more importantly someone that's in your wife's life now.

I know this entire thing sucks but if you really want to move forward and continue on with your wife you better find out the truth or this is going to continue to F with your mind.

I'd want to know if she really cut this OM off once she married you or did it continue? Even one more time? Also if there's been any other men since you've been married.

Quit being driven by fear and do what you got to do.

How old was your wife when she cheated on you?

The brain (prefrontal cortex) matures at different rates for women vs men.

Magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) studies have made it possible for scientists to watch the rate at which the PFC matures, and have discovered the male brain doesn't fully develop until age 25.

Meanwhile, women experience a maturity rate of 21 years-old.

I just feel like I know we will reconcile, which means life will be practically the same as before except now I have this deep pain inside of me that doesn't do me any good.

I am sorry to tell you that life will not like it was before. It can be different, but that doesn't mean worse or better it just means different.

Your situation mirrored mine apart from my W A occured after we were M'd. A question that gets asked many times does sometimes break someone.

I can tell you the biggest problem in dealing with this is the level of trust she had before. Second it will make you wonder if your past was just a lie. BTDT.

I can tell you that IC is a definate must here. I also say that your W really needs to understand the depth of the hurt she has caused you. She has had twelves years to find ways to mitigating her guilt. She has had 12 years to tell herself lies that she now sees as truth. Those have to be unwound like a knotted up ball of twine. She has to get to a place of real remorse, not only for the A, but for always lying to you for 12 years.

We all know why she did it. That is not hard to guess. She knew that you would likely not stay in a relationship with her and likely would have never gotten M. The Lies just compounded over the years.

I will say that IC is something you need right now.If nothing else to help you figure out the real issues this has shown in your M. I think your W will need that too.

In my own situation I had my kids DNA tested. It was one way for my W to see how badly she had hurt my trust. Further it put one big issue to rest for me. It seems like a small thing now, but it can grow into something very damaging for your relationship with your kids. Best to get that out of the way. I also required that my W undergo STD testing.

She may balk at these things and even be hurt by them, but she needs to understand just how badly she damaged any trust you had in her. You want to move ahead, but you need to get those things out of the picture to help you find at least "some" truth about your family life to hang onto. I never did a Poly, but if you feel the need I would do so.

Keep reading and keep posting. I survived my W's A. My M even survived, thrives to this day. It takes a lot of work, but it does get better. Joy happiness and even foundness for your spouse are possible again.

Keep reading and posting. Welcome to the last club you ever wanted to join.

Just adding a little more for you to think upon.

She was caught in the act, by friends and work mates. They would of known that she was in a committed relationship. She would of been terribly embarrassed.

This embarrassment 'may' likely have been the cause of her actions to end the relationship and the employment, not so much her so called reevaluation and commitment to you.

Of course you now have the benefit of time to indicate where her commitment to you is now.

Hoping you can find peace in your steps forward

Cantbeme I went through something very similar, my wife cheated before marriage and waited a couple years into marriage to confess to me. Unlike my situation you had a feeling something happened, I had not the slightest clue. I was blind sided on DDay. I too feel like a large part of our wedding and vows were a farce. She was being dishonest going into the biggest step of our relationship knowing full well the truth would have ended that relationship. That manipulation is hard to get past. It’s been two years since my wife’s confession and I’ve had to just accept that my wife lied (by omission) straight to my face on our wedding day. We’ve mostly reconciled now but it’s been hard.

The whole “I got better between ending the affair and confession” sucks. I dealt with that line too, honestly my wife did but that robs the BS of getting to work on the relationship as a team. You’re left out and and caught playing catch up while they are “all better now”. You need to make it very well known to your wife that if you guys are gonna get through this you as the Bs are gonna be starting from ground zero and it’s going to take a long time. Your W will want to rug sweep because it was so long ago or she’s a different person now but that’s crap. She’s gonna have to work her ass off to earn back all the trust she lost, and have more patience than a saint, while you come to grips with these new relationship you’ve found yourself in.

Sorry you went through this and both fortunately and unfortunately you are not alone.

CBM123,

The way we frame things can make a huge difference to their chance of success. In the scenario that occurs after infidelity has been revealed, the dynamic the two parties fall into can promote or hinder the ultimate desired outcome.

A dynamic that is too combative, fuelled by nothing beyond anger, or the desire to inflict pain or humiliation for revenge, can result in increased trauma, and a lot of wasted energy. If that is all there is, both parties would be better to call it a day, unless they enjoy fighting.

Similarly, a dynamic in which the betrayed party rug-sweeps and lets the unfaithful party off the hook by pretending all is well can be even unhealthier, because the victim may lose all sense of self-worth, and give the unfaithful party a blank license to cheat again.

As with so much in life, the best approach lies somewhere in between the two extremes. The trick for the betrayed spouse is to figure out which end of the spectrum their approach should be closer to.

That requires the capacity to step back and analyse the wayward spouse's potential for reconciliation with as much detached neutrality as they can muster.

Unfortunately, after infidelity has been discovered, that state of detached neutrality is almost impossible to achieve. Our emotions run wild, and we can cycle through highs, lows, and total numbness, several times a day.

For that reason, common wisdom in the forum is to wait 90 days before making a 'big' decision.

There is nothing magical about that figure; it is used to quantify the first milestone in the journey out of infidelity, at which the worst of our mood swings have mellowed to the point where we can think rationally and hear our inner voice as the initial emotional storm abates.

The same period gives the wayward spouse a chance to demonstrate their potential as a candidate for divorce or reconciliation.

When it comes to reconciliation, I believe that the first person a betrayed spouse has to reconcile with is themselves. Particularly if they have firm ideas about fidelity, which is the case with you, and also with me. Your comment...

I would like to reconcile, but I want to do it on my terms, without feeling that I did it under pressure from friends or loved ones, and without losing my own principles and beliefs or my sense of self. It is a very tricky road for me.

...shows a great deal of insight into how you are wired up. I think that is very good, because it means that the reconciliation process will not be based on the compromise of your principles.

However, if we are wired up in a similar way, there may be times when you will find yourself having internal struggles as your 'rules' and your heart's desire pull in opposite directions. It can indeed be a tricky road, and a tough balance to strike. And sometimes it can end in stalemate, with us caught in the middle, unable to move in either direction.

One of the ways I have found to prevent that deadlock is to think about things from another angle, based on a wise saying that I heard years ago: we must balance what we might gain by what we might lose. That assessment can be applied to both reconciliation and divorce, as we picture what both might look like for us.

What gives me optimism in your case is that you are not hamstrung by fear or co-dependency. Nor are you motivated by spite or a thirst for revenge for its own sake. That is why I see potential for you and your wife to make the saving of the marriage a joint project, rather than a boxing match.

Which brings me back to the start of this post, which was about how we frame things. I wonder what your wife would say if you said to her, "You have the psychology degree. How do you think we can fix this?"

Might that channel her energy away from defensiveness or abandoning hope, and into something more positive? Could it hurt to try something like that and see what happens?

At the same time, I think you should make a list of what you need, and why you need it. That can form the basis of the way forward. It can be presented to your wife quite calmly, along the lines of, "This is what I need to feel secure in this marriage again. Do you think you can provide me with it?"

That makes it her choice to engage or not engage, and prevents her from going down the dead-end road of, "You have already written me and the marriage off".

I get the sense that you are pragmatic, and that you know that there are no quick fixes or magic bullets. Trust takes time to rebuild, and reconciliation can take years to fully restore balance to a relationship.

It requires the wayward partner to be willing to make the efforts that their spouse requires, and the betrayed spouse to recognise when that happens, and - importantly - to let the wayward spouse know that their efforts are appreciated.

There have been cases in these forums where wayward spouses have burnt themselves out banging their heads against a wall of indifference from a betrayed spouse, and that is a waste of time for both people. Nothing more than a penance/punishment.

The most successful reconciliations seem to be those which have been joint projects, and I believe that your next step should be to see how open your wife is to embark on such a project. If she is, you can then begin the process of working on what you need.

And given that it ought to be a joint project, you can do something counter-intuitive and ask her to make a list of what she needs. The point of this is to move the two of you away from the dynamic of a boxing match, and towards one of mutual interest, and - dare I suggest it in such a situation? - mutual care.

If mutual care is not present, then reconciliation is very unlikely to succeed.

As a final word, I will close on a phrase that is frequently used in these forums, which is, "Take what is useful, and leave what is not".

To Booyah, let me say , I'm not siding with cheaters or cheating. I am siding with having a happy life with someone you love. The friend I spoke of has had 40+ years of happy marriage with the woman he loved. They are financially secure and have a close and loving relationship. He was a young soldier caught in a situation where he began to doubt himself and made a decision that turned into a long and happy marriage. I am not the kind of man that would destroy that relationship with "the right to know" about something that happened over 40 years ago. CantBeMe123's wife was not his wife when she slept with the other man. She was pretty sure that if CantBeMe123 found out what she had done there was a good chance she would lose him and she was sure she didn't want that. There are very few people in this world that wouldn't lie if they saw their world fixing to collapse around them. I know nothing about CantBeMe123 but I would be willing to bet even money if the situation was reversed and he had slept with another woman he wouldn't have told either. As for GoldenR's comment,"should he just shut up and swallow it?" No he should not but if he wants to continue with the marriage he has, then he has to learn to deal with the reality that it happened and what he must do to get by that reality.

As I said, everyone has secrets. On SI, and other forums we only get one side of a story, unless the other spouse also tells their side. There have been times when the advisors have been giving advice to the bad half of a relationship because they didn't know the other side. There have been times I have advocated, yes divorce and get out of the painful and unfixable life you are living. But there are times like with CantBeMe123 where I see a chance of having a happy marriage and life, in the future, if you put everything in perspective and work at having that life. I do wish you well.

I think CBM’s wife has grown as a person and he said himself she is a wonderful mother. If his wife is willing to put in the work to help him heal then great but it seems like she is trying to manipulate the situation. Always seems in these situations 3 times becomes 6 times when they actually have to take a poly.

Cheating is one thing, cheating in a house full of people and getting caught obviously shows a complete lack of respect for CBM. One would think she wasn’t too concerned if someone could walk in on her in the middle of the act. People do grow up from their twenty’s and I agree a lot of us make dumb decisions at that age.

CBM123,

I hope you are doing ok this evening. You have received some good advice thus far, I would just like to empathize a few things.

She gets very scared when I ask her questions and will repeat to herself, "it will never be enough, I can never do enough".

As others have said, give her some hope. Tell her you want to stay in this marriage. That you do not want the kids to suffer through a divorce. That you want a future with her. But for there to be any chance you need her to step up. Not wallow in self pity. She made this mess. She must be proactive in cleaning it up.

Do not make promises. No absolutes either way. No if then statements. Not at this stage anyway.

I would like to reconcile, but I want to do it on my terms, without feeling that I did it under pressure from friends or loved ones, and without losing my own principles and beliefs or my sense of self.

This is a good statement. It does not indicate co-dependency nor any desire to roll over and rug sweep. No knee jerk forgiveness either. Believe it or not that is rare around these parts.

You want to reconcile and many would say with good reason. Aside from this issue she appears to have been a decent wife and good mother.

So it’s established what you want. Now, regardless of what you want (reconciliation or divorce) there are things you NEED. Chief among them is the whole story. The truth. Everything.

You cannot proceed toward any endpoint with confidence until you have the complete picture.

A complete timeline.

Complete. None of this “I can’t remember” crap. Zero excuses No “I was drunk.” No “I took a puff off a friends joint”

She said she was drunk or high every time they had sex, but that she did once get lunch with him sober outside of work and it did lead to sexual acts, just not sex. I think she is either in denial or lying, and that the affair was more emotional than she wants to make it sound.

I would agree that she remembers more than she is letting on. Omitting facts and other info is par for the course. Cheaters always minimize. She remembers. She remembers giving him oral. She remembers brushing her teeth before kissing you afterwards. She remembers covering her tracks. She remembers the thrill of elicit fun. DO NOT LET HER PLAY DUMB. There is too much at stake.

Polygraph.

It appears she has agreed to this, a good sign.

Usually you get 4 questions. Here are some suggestions.

One question to confirm her timeline and the details contained there in. (And yes, demand his name)

Another.....Have you contacted, or stayed in contact, in any form, including social media, with X?

If she fails this the your hunch that it was more emotional than she says is probably correct.

Another....”Have you had any sexual or inappropriate contact with any other men since your last time with X? Inappropriate includes online as well as physical.

If she fails that one then a STD test may be necessary.

Last question....Are our children biologically mine?

If she fails the last one, then DNA test the kids, as it will be a legitimate concern. And will not look like you having the kids tested just to make her feel guilty.

Stay strong. Try to get some sleep. Drink lots of water, you need more hydration while under stress. Try not to drink too much alcohol. You will get through this.

M1965 offer some good insight and a perspective worth considering, including:

It requires the wayward partner to be willing to make the efforts that their spouse requires, and the betrayed spouse to recognize when that happens, and - importantly - to let the wayward spouse know that their efforts are appreciated.

You must be clear about your needs and then guide the behaviors of your WS by letting them know when they are meeting those needs.You shouldn't move the goalposts when they are showing sincere and dedicated attempts to meet your needs.

If you want or need to know who it was, she should comply. The pain from cheating is about the lies and mistrust. A BS has a need to feel safe again, and that safety is significantly about trust. No questions should remain unanswered that the BS needs answered or that feeling if manipulation or distrust will be a poison that lingers.

You have a right to know if this person has been a part of hers or your life over the years. You have a right to know what contact she has or hasn't had with this person. She has said she came clean at this point because she felt safe. I would say, if you are asking for who it was and she is not willing to disclose, that she has not come clean and ironically would be making that "safe" relationship unsafe for you. Now that you have certainty about your previous suspicions, I believe you will never be at peace, never let it go, as there will be one crucial piece of the puzzle that only she and her affair partner share and know and that you don't know. The deception would feel like it is in the here and now and not one of many years ago.

Safety goes inextricably hand in hand with honestly and trust. If you need to know who it was, then this is one of those "willing to make the efforts that their spouse requires" trust building demonstrations she needs to offer you. To not disclose, if you need to know, will keep the feeling of being manipulated always in the present.

Only you know how important knowing is. But she needs to support whatever it is you need. Then you need to acknowledge her efforts to be vulnerable and honest when she gives you what you need......if she does.

I would feel it rugsweeping to leave such a significant piece of the betrayal story intentionally hidden. Maybe when you know who it was it will feel inconsequential. That would be good. But even in that, you would have more truth, even if that truth ends up seeming trivial. Knowing you are not being lied to is often more important than what the details of the lie are.

[This message edited by DIFM at 5:28 AM, November 3rd (Saturday)]

Thanks to everyone for the thoughts and advice. Here are a few clarifications and updates:

1. She told me his name yesterday when I asked. She hadn't been withholding it, I just hadn't cared to know it. I knew that I would not know this person, I never hung out with her with this group of friends and never met him in my life. I still have no idea who he is or what he looks like, and I am glad not to.

2. She was not on Facebook when she knew him, and she swears she has had no contact with him in the past 12 years since the affair ended.

3. I have asked her to write out a timeline. She is working on it, but she is holding firm in her "memory lapses" and gets very discouraged when I say I don't believe her on these. She has asked me to include a question about her memory on he polygraph (i.e., "have you been lying about what you remember") as she feels strongly she will be vindicated on this. It does help me believe her.

4. I don't really believe in polygraphs and I am a little worried of her having take it. I feel there is no good outcome - I won't believe a good outcome, and a bad outcome would be catastrophic (and not even reliable)

5. We both have started IC, and we have done one MC session together. It was probably too early for MC - the counselor wants to focus on bigger picture issues, and I am not ready to move past this issue yet.

6. I have no doubt that at the time, she only stopped because of being caught. This bothers me, but the reality is that she did stop and worrying about what would have happened otherwise doesn't matter.

7. Some posters I think have missed the timeline of this affair - I will summarize again:

We are not in our mid-30s, married for 8 years, dating for 14. It happened 12 years ago, when we were in our early 20s and dating for 2 years. We were living together and in a committed relationship, but I was still finishing my senior year of college and she had just graduated (she's a year older). Due to my school and her work schedule (she often worked the closing shift, leaving at 1am) we rarely saw each at this time other than early mornings and once a weekend. My wife-then-gf was going out with work friends (and which I declined to join, I had social anxiety back then and hated dancing/parting) on a regular basis, and flirting grew into sex over time. My wife cannot remember the specific dates, but she knows she only worked at this retail store for about 6 months, and so the affair could not have been more than 2-3 months (She remembers it taking at least 3 months of flirting with this guy before it escalated). I "discovered" the affair via a text message from him to my wife, but it was ambiguous enough that she was able to lie about just having kissed him, and I bought it but did not fully believe it. I felt almost the same then as I do now - crushed, heartbroken, hurt, angry. She has sworn to me up and down that the experience of my grief had changed her immensely and that she has not and will never stray again. She told me the full story after I brought up the "kissing" version at our 8-year anniversary dinner two weeks ago. She confessed voluntarily and has been trying to do all the right things since. And so here we are, I am experiencing my second D-Day on the same event and trying to come to terms with it.

8. A happy life is my priority - with or without her. The truth is that I love her, and I love being with her, and she's a great mom, and we have incredible sex, and I can't imagine being happier without her, so I want this to work. The marriage was honestly an A+ until she dropped this bomb two weeks ago - we would fight occasionally once a month or so but they were very minor arguments, and other than that we genuinely enjoy each other's company and rely on each quite a bit as we have two kids under 4 and no parents anywhere near us. I keep reminding myself that I already knew that she strayed in a small sense, that she lied back then because she wanted to be with me, and that she is telling me now because she thought our marriage could bear it and she could clear her conscience. I can't stop all the awful emotions and thoughts, but I do try to step back and review the big picture of our life together and the circumstances around why she confessed (i.e., that she was trying to do the right thing).

Finally, as an update, I had a really bad Wednesday & Thursday, we didn't even make it out for trick-or-treating because of the foul mood I was in. My wife has been reading the FAQs on this site and the "help your spouse heal" book and she has sent a couple detailed emails that I asked for. I feel like she is really trying hard and I do feel like she loves me very much and hates what she did to me. Yesterday was a good day, I was able to process things with less emotion and we were able to talk through some of the affair without either of us losing our cool. We had sex last night and it was great - we've had sex probably 4 times over the past two weeks, which surprises me that I am even able and want to, but the fact is that it makes me feel better and reminds me of our love. I initiated it last night, which was even better - she was happy to participate, but wasn't trying to utilize it as a tool against me or to rug sweep.

Thanks again to everyone - I will try to keep updating once a day or so.

PS - M1965, you need to write a book if you haven't already! Your words are very helpful.