SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I think you are right to ask for a timeline and a polygraph. She did cheat on you even if it was a long time ago. You are clearly upset and trying to get control of the situation. I am not sure the hard-line / ultimatums action is necessary because it is unlikely that she is currently in an affair. I think you should get the timeline and do the poly. Providing everything checks out you could talk it all through in marriage counselling.

I can now see why you have been so frustrated. Trickle truth is just painful.

It was just sex.

No wait I did have feelings for him.

We only had sex 3 times.

No wait 4. Maybe. Not sure.

She says that while it was happening, she would feel absolutely terrible while around me or by herself, but that once she was around him she would enter this "trance" and be infatuated with him and the rush of the affair, then immediately go back to feeling like shit after doing the deed.

Her “Trance” sounds like typical, everyday hypergamy. She was attracted to the bad boy player guy, but still wanted the safe stable option (you) for her long term relationship/provision. She has plenty of company on this site. And what good were her “terrible” feelings if she kept going back? Where these the same feelings that made her lie to you for years? Like most cheaters it sounds like she followed what ever feelings best fit her goals/desires at any given moment.

And it’s this realization that many times permanently changes the BS view of their spouse.

I need to get to a place where I know or believe in my heart that she never strayed again, and then I can forgive this monumental fuck up from over a decade ago that she carried into our marriage and allowed to poison our life. I'll never be the same and neither will our relationship, but I think I could feel that our marriage is worth saving and that it can still be a great marriage moving forward.

If the chief requirement is that she has not cheated again, then I think you guys can make it through this. From everything you have written she does not sound like a serial cheater. Maybe a serial flirter, but not a cheater.

For your sake, and the sake of your kids, I really hope she has remained faithful to you since Brian. Hopefully she has truly grown up, and will own up.

Is she aware of this site? Has she been reading your thread?

And do either of your families know what is going on?

She decided to have sex with this specific guy, for a reason, and it wasn't merely loneliness. You were her Plan B, at least for a time.

It seems to me most examination of this is about her drunken behaviours while partying without you. It is now emerging that there was much more to this than initially thought.

I do wonder if there was not in fact another motivation than drunken debauchery. It has recently emerged that she had 'feelings' for him; that she had been hoping he would make a move on her; that the initial sex was pre-planned before they drove to his flat; that they met for lunch and that was followed by sex in his flat when they were both sober. Then another occasion where they showered together in his flat and she at minimum gave him a BJ.

Does this not suggest she was actually forming a relationship with him and testing the waters as a possible replacement for you.

The 'lonely', drunken girlfriend is one thing but the cool conniving one is quite another. If he had come up trumps I somehow doubt you would now be in the picture.

I think you need to discuss this as part of the process of not rug sweeping.

You are doing well but every possible eventuality of this affair does need to be explored no matter how painful, so that it does not come back to haunt you in the future.

Despite what I have said I do support your efforts to explore reconciliation at this stage.

[This message edited by SorrowfulMoon at 10:10 PM, November 4th (Sunday)]

CMB,

5. She gave me some "good examples" of her turning down advances from men and made it seem like they came out of nowhere. However, upon questioning, it became clear that she put herself in some really shitty situations that she should have known (or did know) was leading a guy on. It hurts to know that even after the affair, she continued "playing with fire" by spending time along with other men and letting them drive her home drunk from parties when she could have called me. It makes me doubt that nothing happened, but she has remained firm in her denial of any further infidelity.

When was she doing this behavior? Was it only around the time of her A? You said it was after the A. Did she do anything like this after getting married?

ETA - I also want to let you know I support your wanting to R.

[This message edited by earlydetour at 9:21 AM, November 5th (Monday)]

After the incident she became essentially a "dry wayward" She still lacked boundaries she needs, she carried on like before. She, maybe, just did not cheat. Big difference and key to "what is different this time?"

That is the question you need to ask. Why should I believe you know. She has the burden to help you believe it. She needs to spend some time in IC to really see her character deficit in this area. Once she sees the continued behavior over the years then she can begin the difficult process of change.

Are the omissions really helping anything at this point other than she believes it makes it more "likely" for you to reconcile ? Selfishness, pure selfishness. She still sees this as something to be hidden, justified or minimized. She needs to work to see that this is 100% on her and choice she made.

Further, she made a choice, without your input knowing full well that you never would have agreed with it. If she was unhappy, then she could have talked to you. Did these choices she make anything better ? Many, many other choices she could have made that would have solved the problem at much less cost.

However the past cannot be changed. You can only move forward through time. The biggest thing is asking how her IC goes. Did she learn anything ? She needs to unravel 12 years of lies not only told to you, but also told to herself. At some point to deal with the cognitive dissonance she had to believe those lies are truth. I really so think that the last few bouts of TT you are seeing are really just her realizing it was a lie she told you, but also one she told herself.

Consequences need to be felt. Sometimes WS are not motivated to be better until they hit rock bottom.

I'd second that MC be put on hold for awhile. You two seem to be communicating well already. Save MC when you are certain you want to build M 2.0.

I will say I read a lot of newbies postings. Most WS are not at the stage your is at already. She "accepts" what she did was "wrong." A lot of BS don't get that right away.

I guess I am trying to point out some of the positives too. There is plenty to work with here. She seems well on her way to doing the things consistently that you will need to heal. She seems to "get" how big of a deal this is to you.

You should stay in IC too. You need someone to talk to that doesn't trigger you. Explore your jealousy issues in IC too. They usually point to certain self esteem or co-dependency issues.

You are in hell right now. Keep moving.

I think we need to be careful when we project our interpretations onto the actions of another person.

I say this not to be an annoying wise-ass, but because I have something like a 100% negative version of Jiminy Cricket who perches on my shoulder and specialises in worst case scenarios. As time has passed, I have learnt - as a survival technique - to listen, but to qualify Jiminy's statements with, "That is just one possibility, not the absolute truth".

The only person who can really explain the actions of CBM's wife is CBM's wife. And the chances are that she herself cannot truly get herself into that mind-set, because more than a decade has passed, and she is now a married woman with kids.

Even if she believes that she can think herself back into the mind of who she was in her early twenties, the truth is that she really cannot do that. None of us can.

Life changes us. We mature.

Plus, it seems like a lot of affairs exist in some kind of mental la-la land, where anything can be done without having any impact in the real world. To try and analyse a situation like that with a rational mind, as if affairs happen because of sensible decisions, can be counter-productive.

Affairs seem to happen when people suspend sensible thinking, and detach from reality.

It is possible that CBM's then-girlfriend compartmentalised things to the point where she had a 'home' boyfriend and a 'work' boyfriend. However, the only person who can answer that is CBM's wife.

What happened in reality is that whatever attraction CBM's girlfriend felt for the turd at work, she made her decision and hitched her wagon to his star. She had a choice back then, and she could have left and chased after the guy at work. She didn't, which I think speaks volumes about how reality with CBM was clearly more attractive than the fantasy-bubble relationship with the co-worker.

What is clear is that now, twelve years later, CBM's wife is a very different person.

Marriage and having children can change a woman's outlook.

As much as we might want to tar and feather the early-twenties version of the woman who cheated, the truth is that she is long gone. She has become her own older sister, and she needs to be assessed for who she is now, not who her little sister was twelve years ago.

None of this is to excuse what was done back in the day. Rather, it is intended to say that nothing that was done back then can be undone, but - and this is the key for me - the future remains to be made. And if CBM's wife can commit to him, and wants to protect what they have, that future can be sweet.

I guess the question this raises is, "Do you want to be defined as a human being by the worst thing you have ever done?"

I certainly would not want that to be the case.

I can look back and see things I said and did, and know that the person that I am now would not do or say the same things now.

It seems to me that CBM and his wife are playing for the same team now, but the problem is what her younger, dumber self did twelve years ago. Before the marriage. Before the children.

CBM...By all means work out what your needs and boundaries are. That is essential. However, please bear in mind that the your wife is not the same person she was twelve years ago.

Is it possible that your wife has matured into someone who now would not repeat the shitty decisions of her past? She now has a marriage, children, and a future to protect. That puts her in a very different situation than she was in back when she cheated.

In your place, I would want her to work her behind off to prove her commitment and loyalty, but I would need to be open enough to acknowledge the times when she succeeds. I hope that you are.

Something I think you can try is asking your wife how she sees your future as a couple. Not in an argumentative way. Plan a few future vacations, places you both want to see (your bucket list). See how much she engages with it. It will be revealing.

From what you have described, it seems like you and your wife have something that is worth fighting for. Particularly the future.

Excellent post M1965.

I do not disagree at all. However, if it was me I personally would like to know the answers even if they are now academic as my wife has changed:

1. Was it in her mind to replace you at any stage.

2. If so, at what point and why did she realise that you were truly the one for her.

3. If not, then can she better explain the several 'sober' liaisons.

I do not like rug sweeping as I think it allows malcontent to fester. To me discussing it rationally in the open will help rebuild trust and maybe even allow his wife to praise him and show him why she made that choice.

I do not disagree at all. However, if it was me I personally would like to know the answers even if they are now academic as my wife has changed:

1. Was it in her mind to replace you at any stage.

2. If so, at what point and why did she realise that you were truly the one for her.

3. If not, then can she better explain the several 'sober' liaisons.

I do not like rug sweeping as I think it allows malcontent to fester. To me discussing it rationally in the open will help rebuild trust and maybe even allow his wife to praise him and show him why she made that choice.

Thank you for your kind words. I see what you mean, and the questions are definitely worth exploring in discussions. In retrospect, my concern was about assumptions made before questions are asked and answered.

It is possible that CBM's wife has rug-swept some of the details herself, to make it easier to live with. Revisiting them, and discussing them from various angles will provide both people with more insight. It will be a tough process for the wife, but it will be worth it to provide peace of mind and answer all questions asked.

Also, the discussions may reinforce the principle that trying to run two relationships simultaneously does not work, and rarely creates lasting happiness. Hopefully that will strengthen the bond in the marriage now.

M1965, there is also the fact that he has asked her about this repeatedly, and she has lied repeatedly, for 12 years.

^^^^^^This

Yeah, I guess I don't understand how it can be said that she's been a good wife, and she's not that person anymore. Not when he's asked her repeatedly over the years and she continued to lie to him. Or,ya know, if she was a better woman today, than back then, she could have come to him on her own without him having to ask, and been honest with him.

I think I read on this thread, that we all lie to our spouses. I suppose that might be true. But there's a huge difference between telling your spouse you did the laundry,when you didn't, and not telling him,in fact lying to his face for years, that she fucked someone else while they were living together,in a committed relationship.

[This message edited by HellFire at 5:57 PM, November 5th (Monday)]

Thank you for your kind words. I see what you mean, and the questions are definitely worth exploring in discussions. In retrospect, my concern was about assumptions made before questions are asked and answered.

It is possible that CBM's wife has rug-swept some of the details herself, to make it easier to live with. Revisiting them, and discussing them from various angles will provide both people with more insight. It will be a tough process for the wife, but it will be worth it to provide peace of mind and answer all questions asked.

Also, the discussions may reinforce the principle that trying to run two relationships simultaneously does not work, and rarely creates lasting happiness. Hopefully that will strengthen the bond in the marriage now.

Cheers M1965. You are perceptive as always.

I have to say that sometimes it is difficult to persuade yourself to push the BS in a direction they may not wish to go and add to their already heavy burden but when trust is gone good communication is vital.

I like many here believe reconciliation is possible in this case but only if honesty is paramount, no matter how much it may hurt either party.

Yeah, I guess I don't understand how it can be said that she's been a good wife, and she's not that person anymore. Not when he's asked her repeatedly over the years and she continued to lie to him. Or,ya know, if she was a better woman today, than back then, she could have come to him on her own without him having to ask, and been honest with him

.

Good point Hellfire but as I recollect (apologies if I am wrong) CBM did state that he hadn't asked for circa three and a half years until the anniversary dinner. During that period they had children, which may have made the more mature WW finally understand the need for honesty when asked.

It was always going to be a difficult decision for her to make after all those years but she did eventually make the right one. To me that is critical.

Here is a possible way of looking at the timeline. This is sheer speculation, but it has been on my mind for a while so I'll just put it out there.

Way back in the day, when the two of you were living together, you weren't exactly on the same page in terms of the level of commitment and seriousness of the relationship. This often happens among young people who are dating but not married, by the way. More specifically, it has been my observation that it is an issue with boyfriends/girlfriends who move in together.

Specifically, she was not as committed to you as you were to her. She still saw herself as essentially a single person, with a guy she was dating who happened to live with her.

Like many young dating single people, her boundaries were fuzzy and she said "yes" to sexual adventures. Many of us did this kind of stuff before marriage.

In other words, her sex with the other man was sort of a hybrid of "sex stuff our wives do with other men before they enter into relationships with us" and an affair. Married people make express promises of lifelong fidelity. Boyfriends/girlfriends in their early 20's often don't discuss anything very clearly nor expressly; they tend to rely more on individual wishes coupled with assumptions. We know what value "assume" has when it comes to the heart of another.

In her case, though, she realized at some point that she was falling in love with you; and then she did in fact fall in love with you, get married to you, and start a family with you.

If that is the case, it's likely her reasons for not telling morphed over time. At first she didn't tell because she wasn't serious about you. She didn't respect you enough to be honest. She was cake eating in its purest form. You've described her as very pretty. Very pretty women in their early 20's have often lived lives of having the red carpet rolled out for them by every man who has ever been in their presence. Their experience with men is a pack of panting hounds eager to eat a mile of their shit just to see where it came from. They often have never been called upon to exhibit any form of respect for a man (and, to be fair, men have shown them very little genuine respect at all -- instead, their life has been a fire hose of obsequious assholes spewing ersatz concern as a ruse to get into the panties).

Later, she didn't tell because she was falling in actual love with you and didn't want to bollix it with messy stuff from the prior "just dating" phase.

Later still, with marriage looming, the thought of derailing what for her was a true love/truly in love, drove the truth underground.

Eventually, though, it ate at her and as she realized you were a stand-up guy, in it for the long run, she felt you deserved the truth.

To me, in a way, it is the dishonesty more than the sex that is the issue. As mentioned above, her fling with the coworker is rather plain vanilla for a sexual fling by a person in her early 20's. It's almost of a species of the category of "sex stuff people do with others before entering into the relationship with the spouse." I'm of the school that people contemplating marriage should discuss their sexual histories with each other, because it will come out eventually and it's important to know if there are skeletons in the closet that the other partner might be uncomfortable with, that might affect the decision whether to trust the person with a promise of a life.

This was a big skeleton. Not only did she cheat on a boyfriend while living with him, the boyfriend she cheated on was you. An honorable person would have been up front about this from the outset. It's possible you would have left her had she told you, but it's also possible she would and could have won you back had she wanted. Boyfriends/girlfriends do this all the time.

By way of counter-example, the woman who is currently my wife flat out told me, when we first started dating: "This isn't exclusive for me." I knew she was seeing another man already at the time she started seeing me. Later, as we got serious, we agreed to be exclusive and I respected her for her brave honesty on that bit. It made me trust her easily.

By the way, my wife is very pretty too. She is not the first very pretty woman I've been with. Several of them have been very direct with me about being non-exclusive. It seems that for a pretty woman in her 20's, sex can be a true smorgasbord, and most of them learn that they generally won't lose a man if they tell him they won't be exclusive with him. In other words, a woman like that does not need to learn to experience empathy. The world does not require empathy of its pretty young women.

So you have a wife who was actively dishonest, and she was thus for self-serving reasons, and she remained dishonest for years, despite your repeated asking. This is the troubling part. An element of cowardice, cake-eating, lack of backbone.

The fact that she finally did tell you is a credit to whom she has become. I'm gathering she has matured and grown in perspective and empathy.

This could be an opportunity to re-set the marital relationship if you think this is something you desire. Are there aspects of the marriage you are unhappy with? For example, would you like her to initiate sex with you more often? Or are there sexual things you'd like to do that she has said "no" to (like blowjobs in the shower)? Or is there some other aspect of the marriage where you feel she has been less than giving?

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 5:00 PM, November 6th (Tuesday)]

My wife did snoop around the forums after I provided her links to the healing library and confessed to me that she found this post, and now I no longer feel safe posting here. She says she did it to better understand how I feel and that it helped, but I feel completely lost now with no safe place to talk.

I am still reading comments and they help.

To anyone else reading this in the future, DO NOT link your WS to anything on this website. You will lose the one good thing you have while coping with this awful shit. They will not be able to resist the temptation to search and find what you post. They have already proven themselves to be unable to resist temptation, haven't they? How stupid can I be...

Hey man,

Nothing she reads her is going to make a difference in wether or not she passes that poly.

Some posters have made the same mistake. Its ok. Don’t beat yourself up.

If she can’t stay out of here if you ask her too, then how the hell is she going to handle real demands?

Don't sweat it. A lot of new BS do the same thing. For some,it's a good thing. For others, not so much. Time will tell.

However, since she decided it was ok to violate your safe place, and she's willing to do "anything" to repair the damage she's caused, then you should tell her to sign up,and start posting on the wayward forum. We have some wonderful former waywards who will guide her through this. They will help her with her "I don't remembers." And they will explain what she needs to be doing. I mean if she's going to take your safe place,the least she can do is take full advantage of the wisdom here.. right?

That's really good advice, thanks. I might ask her to do that. Honestly, I'm really sick of having to "lead the way" for her through this whole thing. She did no homework before dropping the bomb on me, she has bought no books to read, I've been the one sending her links, buying books, basically begging for her to get better at being the WS.

Here I am this sad, broken shell and yet I still have to help her learn how to act, how to show empathy better, how to make me feel better and understand what I need.

It's all so fucking unfair.

Most of the posting couples on SI have discussions and express agreements about whether they will read one another's posts. In most cases, if a wayward wanders here and realizes she has inadvertently stumbled on her BH's threads, she will stop reading and talk to him first to find out how he feels about the idea of her reading his posts.

The fact that your WW simply read your posts, without first discussing even this foundational question, suggests she is still in wayward mode. Selfish. That is, thinking of herself, not you.

She did no homework before dropping the bomb on me, she has bought no books to read, I've been the one sending her links, buying books, basically begging for her to get better at being the WS.

Here I am this sad, broken shell and yet I still have to help her learn how to act, how to show empathy better

Your pain is evident in your last post. It is the shit sandwich all BS are served by their cheating spouses. They come with different breads. But none of them taste good.

It's always easier to destroy than to build. Especially for cheaters. They are wired a bit different.

If she has read the healing library she should be doing more than just turning on the water works when you get mad. Right now its sounds like her inaction is pushing you out the door.

She better pull her head out of her ass pretty quick, or she is looking at being a single mom.

Unless you leaving is actually what she wants.

Is it possible she is aiming for a D? One where you are the bad guy for not forgiving her youthful indiscretion? I mean if she is not down for the long haul of healing, and is showing no initiative, one has to ask...is she playing a different game here?

Or....maybe she is just paralyzed by fear.

[This message edited by ramius at 10:28 PM, November 6th (Tuesday)]