SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

You have to give it some time. I'm three years out and I still trigger and struggle, but I am a helluva lot better now than I was at 7 months, I can assure you.

Did you ever check out the EMDR therapy?

What do you think her motivations were for not telling you? Were they purely selfish motivations? Do you think that she loved you, and wanted a life with you, and did what she thought was best in the moment, despite being objectively wrong and deceitful? From your reports, it sounds as if she made a serious effort to give you the life that you wanted, despite the rotten roots.

I know that she honestly wanted a life with me, the alternative being that she's a sociopath who just wanted to use me to have kids or money, which I 100% don't believe, it's not like I had money or was ever super gung-ho about kids either. I think it was just selfishness and that in her mind her affair was a meaningless mistake, when of course to me it has a lot more meaning. I think she immediately regretted it, and wanted to continue on with me building the life we always wanted, and just pretend it never happened.

A recurring theme for her is that she thinks that consequences should reflect her intentions, not her actions. It has led to a lot of arguments pre-dday, where my feelings would be hurt and she wouldn't understand or empathize because she "didn't mean to". Her A is like the ultimate example, where I thinks she was able to live with herself and her lying because she "didn't mean to hurt me," and to her it was meaningless and a mistake and all about her, not intentional relationship homicide. She grades herself but what she intended, not by the collateral damage of her actions, I think her A is the first time she has really thought this through and realized how much harm and pain she can cause even when she "doesn't mean to". IMO, changing this way of thinking is the most important part of her improvement and a necessary component of any R.

If you can go a couple of days without thinking about her infidelity, maybe in a few months you can go three or four. Based on the idea that what you are feeling now will almost certainly improve, can you see a happy life with her?

I am hoping this is what happens, I honestly thought it would happen by now if it was going to happen, but I realize we are still early in the recovery phase. It's so frustrating and depressing.

It hasn't done either. She is exactly the same person before and after her confession. The only change this caused was an overall increase in honesty/transparency from her to you, albeit painful honesty. That doesn't affect whether she is a "better person".

I disagree, I think her confession has allowed her to seek the counseling she always needed but avoided, and caused her to look at herself in the light of day in a way she never could before while she was living her fake life pretending the A never happened. I don't think she's the same at all, actually.

I have and continue to root for both you and Flawed. Hang in there, you two can survive this.

Thanks to you and others for the positivity.

My W was an 'ideal WS', too. That whole concept is mind-boggling.

I, too, thought for several years that my W was better off for confessing, that I was worse off, and that the total amount of pain we carried was less than before d-day. That was not any consolation.

3.5-4 years out - YMMV - I started to think that my W was better off for confessing and doing her work and that I was better off, too.

That was not because of the A - it was because of the work we had done on ourselves and on our M.

I don't know what's in your future, but I'm pretty confident that you're about where you ought to be at 7 months out. It's too early to tell if R will work for you, but the signs are good.

You write that you want to R, but you don;t want to be pressured into it. It's hard to separate one's owns desires from pressure from outside, but I think going after what you want, rather than going after what you've been told you should want, is a very good basis for recovering and starting R.

I committed to R 90 days out from d-day. That didn't mean D was off the table. Rather D shifted from the first thing I considered when any issue arose to the last thing. Before committing to R, every issue was 'stay/go'. After committing, I assumed we'd solve every issue - but if we hit one we couldn't resolve, D would be the outcome.

I urge you to stay mindful of the fact that you are choosing to R, because it's what you want - and that you can change what you want at any time.

As for the immaturity of your W2b's brain when she cheated, that's a good explanation, but it doesn't mitigate your pain. It just doesn't.

I recommend embracing the triggers and living your hopelessness. IMO, those things are pain coming to the surface. If you let the pain in, it will come in and flow out of your body. That specific pain will not come back. You have to do a LOT of this, because being betrayed brings a LOT of pain with it, but the process works.

Thank you Sisoon, this really struck a chord with me.

A recurring theme for her is that she thinks that consequences should reflect her intentions, not her actions.

The answer to that is both yes and no, at the same time. For example, she accidentally fire a nail through thumb while you were holding a chair she was trying to nail with a nail gun. You still have a nail through your thumb, no matter what her intentions were. The injury is the injury.

But if it was an accident, you're less inclined to think about nailing her thumb in retaliation.

That's a highly simplified example. In a marriage, a big part of R is in the healing of the BH. The marriage can't be healthy unless/until the BH is healed. Your trauma is your trauma, regardless of her good/bad faith at the time of the A.

So, it's not really about consequences at all. It's about healing your trauma. I think you're in a very normal place for somebody 7 months past Dday.

A recurring theme for her is that she thinks that consequences should reflect her intentions, not her actions.

This is really excellent insight. This is something that I have seen from my xWW as well. Something about that vulnerability is so terrifying to them, they just can't bridge the gap.

It doesn't make it better or OK, but I think you have a pretty good idea of who your wife is.

I'm so sorry. She lied and cheated, then took away your right to make an informed decision about your future.

I totally get how you are still feeling.

I stuck it out for as long as I could before I realized that I was never going to forgive her, or look at her the same way again. I dont regret trying, although I remained in limbo for fall too long. I also use the word trying loosely as we did some major rug sweeping.

The good news for you is that you are early in the process and should not be setting any timetables. The thing about infidelity in marriage, there are no statute of limitations. If you ever want out, you just get out. Crap, half the marriages end with most not because of cheating.

If she is doing the right things keep on your path. If you can't ever get things right, then let the marriage go.

She was in control all the years she lied to you. No you are the one holding the cards.

It is ok to feel the way you do. There is nothing wrong with you.

Has you wife read how to help your spouse heal from your affair.

You will get through this. You will survive.

It is ok to feel the way you do. There is nothing wrong with you.

Has you wife read how to help your spouse heal from your affair.

You will get through this. You will survive.

Selfish f*cking people making selfish choices with no regard for how their actions can damage the ones they supposedly love.

It shouldn't astonish me anymore, but it does.

Checking in today to say that things are going well at the moment. Started new MC a month ago at a time when I felt I could more genuinely commit to our marriage and it has been going well. Still some ups and downs each week, but usually related more to communication problems (see above comments regarding actions/intentions) than affair-related setbacks. We make a point to get some time to ourselves without the kids at least twice a month and those "dates" have really helped us to re-connect.

I feel like the ball is in my court - I feel loved by her, I feel her remorse, she is trying the best she can. I want us to work, but I continue to have my doubts about whether or not my brain will let me get over what she did and be happy. Each weeks gets better though.

Double post

[This message edited by CantBeMe123 at 10:51 AM, May 31st (Friday)]

I continue to have my doubts about whether or not my brain will let me get over what she did and be happy. Each weeks gets better though.

You get "through" this. You never going to be over it. It becomes a part of your past together and you spend more time looking forward.

Progress is progress. Don't let your impatience dictate your healing time frame either. This takes time to get through. You will never forget, trust me, I've tried. Finding my acceptance then my grace helped me to incorporate it into our M'd life. It doesn't intrude that often, but when it does I am able to find my grace again.

Your W might not have intended to hurt you, but she clearly knew that it would, right ? Why hide it all that time if she thought it wouldn't hurt you ?

The inconsistency in thought process is where she needs to do more work. She is picking feelings from a long list to keep her cognitive dissonance in check.

As you build the M again you will small improvements here and there. One day you will weigh the good against the bad and realize that the M is what you want. You both will never take it for granted again.

I, with all my heart, do believe you will get there one day CantBeMe123. I recognize the subtle differences from when you first posted. You are on your way, but the destination is further that you thought it would be. Just keep going.

I've been in the cheering section for you and Flawed from the beginning, so I'll throw in my two cents.

numb&dumb's post offers wisdom and I agree with him 100%.

From the timeline, your emotions and feelings are about where Mrs. Klaatu was in our difficult R...and our marriage survived.

Your ordeal is far from over, but I think you two are tracking in a good direction. Remember, progress in R is bumpy and incremental.

Mrs. Klaatu never "got over" what I did and I don't think a BS has to (or should) in order to successfully R. However, she managed to accept and came to terms with what I did which paved the way for successful R. For this, I am eternally grateful.

You and Flawed will get through this and it is possible to be happy again.

Mrs. Klaatu never "got over" what I did and I don't think a BS has to (or should) in order to successfully R. However, she managed to accept and came to terms with what I did which paved the way for successful R

I totally agree with this. To me it is almost impossible to really forgive the actions of a WS. What you can do though is accept that it happened and not constantly beat yourself up.

If she is truly remorseful you can move on as long as you do not rug sweep. Acceptance is not rug sweeping, it is a pragmatic solution to coming to terms with infidelity.

However, in the final analysis though you have the moral right to divorce even if she does everything required.

Checking in again, 9 months out now.

The past month has been one of three steps forward, two steps back. We had our best three-week stretch ever, followed by probably our worst week since d-day. On bad days it feels impossible, like the hurt will never go away and my wife lacks real empathy and I'm wasting my time. On good days, I feel like my wife truly is a different person than she was back then, and her good qualities shine through and I feel very happy to have her and our life together.

The issue for the most recent blow-up pertained to what for me feels like the biggest ongoing issue - taking me for granted. I think that practically everything about my wife's affair, her years of lying, and her setback in our recovery revolve around taking me for granted. I don't think it's intentional or devious, more like a built-in feature of our relationship. The power dynamic for us was always heavily skewed to her side and I think it enabled her to act in ways that were not loving towards me (beyond just the A).

The setback revolved around a few different things, from saying things that trigger me ("I think you would pick this life", "I didn't understand the magnitude of my decisions") to making what feels like insensitive requests (she wants me to verbally communicate to her when I need to emotionally check out for the night at times when I am overwhelmed with grief; she considers it a boundary I am crossing by simply staying in our room alone and not communicating with her).

A lot of this is issues with communication and delivery on her end, and on understanding and perception on my end, but a lot of it feels to me like taking me for granted. It feels like when I make any significant progress in healing, she takes it as much more progress than it is and seems eager to behave as if things are status quo in our marriage. For instance, the "communication boundary" felt to me like something that would be fair to ask a husband who is trying to get out of chores, but not fair to ask a husband who is in immense pain due to the fallout of years of lying and an affair. Her inability to see the difference in situations makes me feel taken for granted.

We worked through this particular episode when it took us to the brink a week ago, and now we have had very good conversations about it and I think we have both learned from it. We have such different communication styles (and really different ways of thinking in general) which makes it so difficult for us to connect sometimes. I choose words extremely carefully and I interpret other's words as if they use the same level of care, whereas my wife puts much less thought into words and instead only tries to convey feelings and emotions. She is also aware of how much attention I pay to words and this creates fear for her, and then a feedback loop occurs where she is already not great with choosing words, then gets fearful and anxious about it, and then the words get more muddled or she just shuts down completely. Both of those outcomes make me upset and angry, and thus our fights spiral out of control pretty quickly in this way.

My wife also had an epiphany which she shared with me, one which both helps make sense of her actions back then (good) and reinforces my worst fears and insecurities (real bad). One of my biggest ongoing obstacles to making sense of her A and accepting what she did has been trying to figure out how she was able to cheat on me so easily - she had sex with him the very first chance, with no hesitation, no protest, no "I can't do this". It has killed me to know this information.

She told me that upon reflection and trying to make sense of it herself, she believes that in the weeks leading up to her A she has mentally and unilaterally "downgraded" me to friend/roommate. This has always been a huge fear for me - that she used me for my traits of being responsible and safe, and then went outside the house to find passion and lust. Huge, huge pain point for me. It is unclear if she did this due to issues she perceived in our relationship or because her crush on OM was ramping up and she was "pre-enabling" her actions. It does at least make sense of how she acted so egregiously and with so little thought for me. She really did act single. It kills me still. We haven't really had a chance to fully process this as we've been dealing with other issues and waiting for MC to dive deeper into it.

On the positive side, after our huge fight last week, she gave me a heartfelt apology that was not defensive and has shown me a lot of introspection that she has been doing. She even had a vulnerable moment of letting go and really crying in front of me, something she is extremely uncomfortable doing and really has only done maybe one other time throughout all of these nine months, whereas it happens to me quite often. It makes me feel very alone with the pain when I feel like I am the only one breaking down over it, so this helped to mend that gap for me.

Before this recent fight, we also had two very nice family vacations, one to the mountains and one to the beach, and they were great reminders to me of what I have to lose. I absolutely love our family vacations, I love being a cohesive unit together, and I really do like being with my wife and having fun with her and our kids. The love is still very much there between us.

Edit: typos

[This message edited by CantBeMe123 at 11:17 AM, July 16th (Tuesday)]

Um...at 10 months out, you probably should be uncertain about R. 10 months is simply too short a time for a WS to change permanently.

Also, the following is awful, I know, but the steps backward into pain are the steps that enable quantum leaps in progress (alas, they just enable giant leaps, they don't guarantee them).

Gently, what's your objection to telling your W you are withdrawing because you want to process grief or anger, etc.? I think that is likely to be a good step for you.

Alternatively, you could just tell your W to assume that you're processing grief if you withdraw - but I think you'll find it more healing to let your W know each time. After all, if you tell her, she'll have a better gauge of how her A affects you.

A lot of this is issues with communication and delivery on her end, and on understanding and perception on my end, but a lot of it feels to me like taking me for granted. It feels like when I make any significant progress in healing, she takes it as much more progress than it is and seems eager to behave as if things are status quo in our marriage.

I think what you are saying here is a very common occurrence especially around where you are in your timeline. I found myself very shocked to be asked for a divorce in the middle of our ninth month passed D-day because the waters had been calmer right before. I think in that 10-14 month period I kept thinking that I was starting to feel better so I painted that as things were getting better. It was when I kept seeing that was not the case that I really started to understand the magnitude of what I did.

It's not that I didn't see the devastation, but I think in some ways you keep telling yourself things are going to get better. And, they slowly do, and it's a relief and a rest. (I think that's for both partners by the way, sometimes H needed for us to go away for the weekend and just be normal) It takes some time to see as the WS that nope, you are just on a different stage of the roller coaster. Gratitude for things being good is not necessarily taking things for granted, but you say "status quo" - what does that mean to you? Does it mean that she goes back to not treating you with care and attention? Or does it mean she shows gratitude that things are getting better and she gets too happy?

The reason I ask that is around the year mark, I came here and said I was feeling euphoric. And, I think it was really just because things had been so bad for so long, and the emotional pain was so heavy and hard that when I saw things getting back to normal I wanted to do cartwheels. Not because I didn't feel remorse, or because I was minimizizng what I did, but because even feeling a little bit good felt like a relief like no other I had in my entire life. And, a lot of it was I could see my husband was better too for little stretches of time. I was finally seeing evidence that we could fall in love again, that he could love me again.

I am telling you that because I think sometimes the BS panicks when this happens because there still debilitating pain and they see the happy stretch and they panic that the WS will forget or leave them behind? I can't really describe it. There are some here I think call it a vulnerability hangover.

Overall, I do think what Sisoon is saying is probably a good next step for you both. Communication is key:

Alternatively, you could just tell your W to assume that you're processing grief if you withdraw - but I think you'll find it more healing to let your W know each time. After all, if you tell her, she'll have a better gauge of how her A affects you.

For us, I have already mentioned that 10-14 month period I was really, really starting to understand. That's because what you are describing was happening. I would feel all this hope and joy, and it would trigger the shit out of H and he would retreat. At some point, in watching this play out I learned the glimpses were just glimpses and that the destruction was far more devastating than I had even thought prior to this period. It was also the time that I was coming out of my own shame and really starting to get productive on my work. So, I think like you, he got those glimpses too of who I was becoming and it gave him hope too.

Now is a time to maybe start turning more towards each other and not being afraid to ruin the good day when it needs to come down several notches for you, and really truly share in what you are going through. For us, I was finally to the point I could hear him more clearly. It was a tremendous turning point.

Um...at 10 months out, you probably should be uncertain about R. 10 months is simply too short a time for a WS to change permanently.

Also, the following is awful, I know, but the steps backward into pain are the steps that enable quantum leaps in progress (alas, they just enable giant leaps, they don't guarantee them).

I have felt more inclined to R (and want to R quickly) because of how long ago the A was and how many years we have together that have been good. Of course, this also leads to the "being taken for granted" feelings I have, so it cuts both ways. As time has gone on I have "let go of the outcome" in my own way, and while I still desire R I certainly do not see it as guaranteed.

Gently, what's your objection to telling your W you are withdrawing because you want to process grief or anger, etc.? I think that is likely to be a good step for you.

Alternatively, you could just tell your W to assume that you're processing grief if you withdraw - but I think you'll find it more healing to let your W know each time. After all, if you tell her, she'll have a better gauge of how her A affects you.

The objection for me is that my wife for me is like Schrodinger's Wife - simultaneously my healer and my destroyer. When I am feeling like I need to withdraw, it's because I am stuck in the feeling that she is my destroyer and I do not want to interact with her. I do think you are right that ultimately being able to communicate even when I'm upset is healthier, but I am not there yet, and it felt very entitled of her to ask me to provide her that.

Further, the way she delivered the message was very indirect/evasive. I had come home after a very rough emotional day but felt so overwhelmed that I didn't feel comfortable around her or my kids, so I went to our room and laid by myself. Later, she said, "When you leave, I get really anxious and sick because I wonder where you are going and when you will come back to me. I would like you to communicate when you are leaving so I understand what's going on." My immediate reaction was, I didn't leave! I never went anywhere, I came home even though I felt like crap. She then said, "I meant when you leave emotionally as well physically; you check out emotionally and I may not see you for hours." That bothered me because it felt disingenuous. My therapist put it a good way - she is really asking for affirmation but cloaking it as asking for information.

I do feel responsible for providing information, I think that is fair to ask for, but she has all the information she needs - she knows where I am and why I'm there with high degrees of accuracy. I don't think I have any responsibility to provide affirmation, and that's really what she's asking for - affirmation that I haven't fully "left", either physically or emotionally. Would it be healthier to want to do that? Yes. But again, I'm just not there yet and I think she should understand that and not expect it from me.

Gratitude for things being good is not necessarily taking things for granted, but you say "status quo" - what does that mean to you? Does it mean that she goes back to not treating you with care and attention? Or does it mean she shows gratitude that things are getting better and she gets too happy?

What I mean is acting in ways that don't show care and attention, in ways that remind me of our pre-confession marriage. For instance, here's a reminder of a few setbacks I have disclosed here previously - her sending a "harmless" flirty text to our babysitter, writing an x-mas card to the family of one of her "lesser" OMs whose wife she is friendly with, and asking for permission to join a girl's weekend away. All these happened during a period of things going well for us, including this most recent blow up. Of course, it is a tautology that things have to be going well for a setback to happen in the first place, but it feels very much like how I described it in that it feels like she settles into old habits and forgets my feelings. The reversion to status quo to me means a reversion to normalcy, to ignoring/forgetting the pain I'm in, to not being sensitive to my triggers, to assuming we are back to being OK.

The reason I ask that is around the year mark, I came here and said I was feeling euphoric. And, I think it was really just because things had been so bad for so long, and the emotional pain was so heavy and hard that when I saw things getting back to normal I wanted to do cartwheels. Not because I didn't feel remorse, or because I was minimizizng what I did, but because even feeling a little bit good felt like a relief like no other I had in my entire life. And, a lot of it was I could see my husband was better too for little stretches of time. I was finally seeing evidence that we could fall in love again, that he could love me again.

I am telling you that because I think sometimes the BS panicks when this happens because there still debilitating pain and they see the happy stretch and they panic that the WS will forget or leave them behind? I can't really describe it. There are some here I think call it a vulnerability hangover.

I think this is very similar in our situation. I do feel a panic around happiness, in fact the very morning that my wife asked me later in the day to go on this girl's weekend, I actually said to her before we left the house something like "I am feeling happy but I am worried you will take that as a sign I'm not still hurting. I get scared to be happy because I feel like you forget my pain still exists." Not two hours later does she ask me how I would feel if she went away for the weekend with her yoga girlfriends in a few months! WTF?!

For us, I have already mentioned that 10-14 month period I was really, really starting to understand. That's because what you are describing was happening. I would feel all this hope and joy, and it would trigger the shit out of H and he would retreat. At some point, in watching this play out I learned the glimpses were just glimpses and that the destruction was far more devastating than I had even thought prior to this period. It was also the time that I was coming out of my own shame and really starting to get productive on my work. So, I think like you, he got those glimpses too of who I was becoming and it gave him hope too.

Now is a time to maybe start turning more towards each other and not being afraid to ruin the good day when it needs to come down several notches for you, and really truly share in what you are going through. For us, I was finally to the point I could hear him more clearly. It was a tremendous turning point.

I hope that this happens, we both want it to happen but struggle with how to get there. I think my wife thinks that she is further along in "the work" at this point than it sounds like you would describe yourself, but it is also less focused on her A and more focused on her in a general/big picture sense. Her A was also half a lifetime ago, so I think it's difficult to focus on it and the "whys" of her A as they are so distant and she feels so detached from who she was then, yet I'm in the thick of my misery about it as if it happened 9 months ago. Her focusing on her "big picture whys" makes it hard for me because she may be practicing things like finding her voice/being assertive/setting boundaries (with me), but practicing those things takes a lot of sensitivity in our situation or it can easily make me feel unloved/uncared for/alone with my pain. I (selfishly, I admit) want her work to be more focused on my needs right now than hers. I think sometimes she resents that, especially when she feels like we're ahead of where we actually are in healing.

I think my wife thinks that she is further along in "the work" at this point than it sounds like you would describe yourself

Well, to be perfectly honest, I thought I was further along in the work at that point than I was too. I think I always think I am. But, there is no real point of measurement. I think my first year was about becoming enlightened with the issues. The second was about the tide really changing, me really changing in bigger ways and reinforcing. I don't know what year 3 will bring. The only hope that I can give you is that it's progressively gotten better, not just for me but definitely for my husband. I have seen first hand his peace is returning in large chunks of time. We still discuss it, but not as often and not as heated.

I do understand you want to see her work on the relationship more, but honestly that comes from becoming whole. You can't become whole without doing the work on yourself. I think what you might reasonably expect is for her to relate to you progressively better as she works on changing herself. She does seem to still have some selfish tendencies, like bringing up a trip on a day where one was already discussed and you were already distressed. But, I think you are right for her this was a long time ago, and it's hard to connect it to where her life is now.

I became a better wife after I became a better person. I strived for both, but it wasn't perfect. And, like your wife I would think I was further along and then have these ephiphanies and be able to see in hindsight how clueless I was. I imagine by the end of year 3 I will look at where I am now and still think I was not nearly where I needed to be. That's how growth usually is, at least in my experience. You can't know what you don't know.

Anyway, I have prattled on enough but I relate a lot to what you are saying, and I see how that played out for us.

That was super helpful, thank you HO. I hope we follow your path (perhaps minus serving divorce, but we were practically there last week anyway).