SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I was part of a couple just like you and your WW -- moved far away, to a place we knew nobody, to start a new life together as a couple, simultaneously moving in together and thereby taking the relationship to the next "serious" level of commitment. Although years later it was my LTGF who cheated and dumped me, in those first few months it was probably me who had the wayward heart and I might have been your WW but for lack of opportunity. I remember the feeling distinctly, like a devil on one shoulder and an angel on the other, the angel reminding me how much I loved my GF, how I was ready to enter into this committed relationship and how it would be the familial bliss I had always wanted, while the devil on the other shoulder reminded me of the "what ifs" and the unknowns, how raw and exposed I was to injury, all while also reminding me how much easier life was when I had no commitments and didn't care about anybody but myself.

I think that was exactly where your WW was emotionally. The fact that she went straight to sex is no surprise. It was because it wasn't the AP she wanted; it was escape from reality. The AP was convenient because he was easy and present. Your WW was a pretty young woman; getting a man is like breathing air for somebody of that ilk. What is a bit trickier is getting a man whom you have no regard for. You can't have a cheap thrill with a man of any substance, because you might develop real feelings for him. You go for the human detritus because there is no risk of any meaningful connection. Just pure childish escape.

She woke up very quickly and realized her mistake and tried to put it behind her, but never could because you had seen and heard too much, hence you being here.

But the sex part, I completely understand why and how she went there so easily. It was her escape valve.

Perhaps “I only thought how your unhappiness about my affair would affect me, not how it would affect you.”

[This message edited by Stevesn at 2:41 PM, July 17th (Wednesday)]

Perhaps “I only thought about how your unhappiness about my affair would affect me, not how it would affect you.”

.....aka narcissism.

If one has to be coached up on empathy, chances are it’s not part of their operating system.

CBM,

I think my wife thinks that she is further along in "the work" at this point than it sounds like you would describe yourself, but it is also less focused on her A and more focused on her in a general/big picture sense. Her A was also half a lifetime ago, so I think it's difficult to focus on it and the "whys" of her A as they are so distant and she feels so detached from who she was then, yet I'm in the thick of my misery about it as if it happened 9 months ago. Her focusing on her "big picture whys" makes it hard for me because she may be practicing things like finding her voice/being assertive/setting boundaries (with me), but practicing those things takes a lot of sensitivity in our situation or it can easily make me feel unloved/uncared for/alone with my pain. I (selfishly, I admit) want her work to be more focused on my needs right now than hers. I think sometimes she resents that, especially when she feels like we're ahead of where we actually are in healing.

This is a fundamental issue.

To your wife, it happened long ago, and she had been working on herself since then, and is more comfortable now.

To you, it only happened nine months ago. All the emotions are still raw. At nine months, your wounds are still open. Not a large as they were before, but nonetheless, still open.

To your wife, she has proven to you that she is 'safe', but to you, she is not. So, how do you two bridge this gap of time?

IMO, your wife needs to be cognizant that the information is new to you, and she has to act accordingly. It does not matter how much she has changed herself over the years, as it was all in secret. To you, the baseline for her change starts on the day she confirmed it was a PA for her.

The baselines for the measurement of change is different. There is no common 'zero' point.

The easy slipping back into old behaviours by your wife is indicative of this. She feels that the work has been done, and has possibly demoted the crime to a misdemeanor, so does not warrant that much effort or focus. This needs to change. She has to see it from your perspective.

Each betrayed spouse will have triggers. Usually they are personal and subjective and linked to some immutable aspect of the A. A WW who is sincerely trying to help her BH heal would be wise to be attentive to those triggers and would try to figure out ways to heal those spots.

In your case, it is the fact that she gave the POSOM the no-strings-attached easy sex that you yourself haven't experienced, mainly due to some level of social anxiety as a younger man.

Most male posting here, myself included, completely understand this. For a man, the idea that a woman would crave us for just sex is affirming to our sense of self as sexual men. That fact that your wife would give that affirmation to another man wounds you, understandably so. Thos is something that she cannot give you because you do have strings.

My observation is that women way underestimate the degree to which this specific issue impacts a man. I think they do so because to a woman, especially an attractive young woman, sex is like air. It's always present. You just open your mouth and breathe.

This is where empathy comes to play. Empathy is learning to understand another person's pain, from that person's perspective. Do you think your WW has achieved empathy with you on this point? Think of some affirming emotional event she dearly wanted as a young woman, but never received. Maybe unvarnished praise from her father for an achievement. Then you came along and her father immediately gushed with the praise for you that she never had. Obviously, you are not her father. You can't give her that. How would you help her heal from that?

My example falls short because it lacks the element of you giving this thing to another woman, so take my example and multiply it by factors of 10.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 7:11 AM, July 17th (Wednesday)]

Thanks BFTG, your post was helpful for me and also spurred some introspection for my wife, and we've had some good discussion around it already.

What I really struggle with is the quantity and variation of damaging things there are in my wife's past. The number of painful and humiliating events feels so multifaceted that as soon as my brain finds some peace with one thing, it says to itself, "don't forget about that other thing!" and then the misery starts all over again.

First there's the A, which itself is all over the map from being slutty/NSA/cheap thrill but then also having intimate moments, them going on a date, and worst of all taking a shower together. My mind wants to write it off as either a sex-driven fling OR an emotional affair of the heart, but it seems like both and that's really hard to swallow.

Then, if I ever come to terms with the A, I move on to her next betrayal, telling her colleague about her affair while drinking at a bar, letting him drive her home and proposition her, and letting this asshole stay in our life and attend our wedding and be "friends" with me for years. Sometimes this one feels like the worst of them all to me, even though my wife turned down his proposition. The humiliation from this one is profound for me.

If I can accept that one, my brain moves next to her having her day-long dalliance in England while we were engaged. While supposedly at the peak of her love and commitment to me, she gave herself permission to basically go on an impromptu date with a complete and total stranger in another country. After being approached by this random guy, she allowed him to show her around the town, pull her by the hand from landmark to landmark, put his arm around her at least once, let him buy her a drink, and smoked pot with him. This one hurts so much because we were engaged and because it makes me feel like I have always been out of sight, out of mind for her. I question her love for me, at a time that it should have been peaking. I question the very foundation of our marriage.

If I accept all of the above as "back then my wife had terrible boundaries and was still insanely selfish", then I move on to her crush on her workout partner and her more recent crush on my best friend. These make me feel like I simply do not check all of the boxes for her when it comes to attraction/partner selection. I feel emasculated that my wife has had these fantasies, and it feels like they have happened throughout our entire history (workout partner crush/fantasy was around 2010, best friend crush/fantasy was last year or two).

So to reach some level of acceptance of all this, I have to do a lot of mental gymnastics. I start by basically writing off our entire history as boyfriend/girlfriend, and accept that she was just a horrible girlfriend who was not ready to commit and didn't really know what love was. Then I tell myself that even after getting caught in an A (remember she was walked in on and pseudo-caught by me), she actually did love me but her boundaries were so bad that she could allow herself to have this "date" while overseas. Then I accept that she makes selfish choices and compartmentalizes in such a profound way that having a man who tried to make out with her and new of her infidelity at our wedding is excusable. The after I've cleared all of those painful hurdles, I tell myself that her crush/fantasies are involuntary and not about something lacking in me, and what matters is that she didn't act on them. Finally, I try to accept that the lifetime of lies she fed me were built on love and a fear of losing me rather than just a manipulation to continue using me.

Phew. That's exhausting.

Anyway, this is the general train of thought my mind goes down when I am in my "bad place". It feels impossible sometimes to accept it all, let alone to ever forgive it all. My biggest fear is that years from now I have my own epiphany of "the sum of all of this is that it's a deal breaker", and even more years of my life are wasted.

But in the meantime, I keep trying, I still feel love for her, and our good days can still be very good and feel worth fighting for.

I had good IC yesterday and Flawed and I have had some very good emails and conversations lately as well. After the horror story that was last week, this one is feeling like a complete 180 in the positive direction.

Everything I wrote in my last post holds true, but I also realize that at some point the main truth that I have to accept is that she was just quite not who I thought she was before our marriage. She has grown into that person and I do believe she is very much a changed woman at this point in her life. I told her in one of our emails, the most important thing she can do when we argue is to "bring me back to the present", meaning to remind me of who she is now and who she has been for the past 8 years. Her actions back then will always hurt me, but they will always hurt her too. She has really stepped up her game in the empathy department this week and I hope it leads to lasting change.

I think I'm going to take another sabbatical but I didn't want to leave the last post up as my "ending thoughts" because they don't reflect quite where I'm at right now.

Actually I found that last post very vulnerable, understandable, and authentic to the struggle. It’s a good depiction of the roller coaster to see the subsequent message. But anyway, one thing that I would like to reinforce is where you said it makes you think you don’t check her boxes. I think that would be a natural way to feel. But her actions were about her and her need for extra validation - because of her own insecurities and lack of self worth. It’s a reflection of who she was, not a reflection in you or who you are. I know you probably get glimpses of that logic but internalizing that is going to take time. But no one could have checked her boxes so to speak because she couldn’t check her own boxes. It is mental gymnastics and I think all waywards should read that last post, it’s an excellent and poignant expression of the struggles a bs goes through in order to try and reconcile. It was honest so don’t apologize. I am so glad you turned another corner though, you deserve peace. Thank you for both of those posts.

[This message edited by hikingout at 11:07 AM, July 19th (Friday)]

She has grown into that person and I do believe she is very much a changed woman at this point in her life.

I've said something along these lines in your threads, exhibit A being the fact that she opened p and told you the whole truth. The sense is that she sees her former self as something foreign, something she wants to leave behind her forever.

As noted, we all realize she has had a lot more time to process that metamorphosis than you have. Further, I do not mean to diminish the emasculation and pain you feel from the unique nature of her cheating.

However, of all the threads I've read here on SI, the one unique factor in yours is that she has unequivocally become better for you over time, with the last few years being the strongest. So many threads here involve a BS whose WS has been a mediocre spouse at best leading up to DDay, leaving them with little to cling to in terms of hope for the future.

Wishing you the best.

Thanks HO and BFTG.

However, of all the threads I've read here on SI, the one unique factor in yours is that she has unequivocally become better for you over time, with the last few years being the strongest. So many threads here involve a BS whose WS has been a mediocre spouse at best leading up to DDay, leaving them with little to cling to in terms of hope for the future.

I've always been aware of this, and it's why the unfairness and injustice have been much harder for me to overcome and I don't struggle with seeing her as safe or remorseful. My struggle has always been with reconciling who she was back then with my own memories, and dealing with the thought that I would have broken up with her and thus my life is "off course" as a result. IC is helping with the latter.

I don't have much to add because I think hikingout and butforthegrace have offered excellent insight, just wanted to say that you and Flawed are still in my thoughts and I'm still rooting for you two. Reconciling your own view of your relationship history with the reality is a bit of a mindfuck and in your case moreso than usual for reasons you've already outlined. I hope IC helps you find a path.

My biggest fear is that years from now I have my own epiphany of "the sum of all of this is that it's a deal breaker", and even more years of my life are wasted.

That’s what happened with my dad. Years later he is now running around trying to make up for lost time and opportunities.

I hope you and Flawed are able to find some peace about it all someday.

So to reach some level of acceptance of all this, I have to do a lot of mental gymnastics. ... ....

Gently, my take is that you need to accept those things because they happened. That acceptance is separate, in my mind, from your response to those things - but how can you not accept them? (I don't mean to argue or criticize; I'm genuinely interested in how you think you can't accept them.)

Finally, I try to accept that the lifetime of lies she fed me were built on love and a fear of losing me rather than just a manipulation to continue using me.

The after I've cleared all of those painful hurdles, I tell myself that her crush/fantasies are involuntary and not about something lacking in me....

Again gently: I think you need to take in the fact that your W's infidelities had nothing to do with you. All of them were all about her.

It's really important to know that. You may have had some influence around the margins, but there was essentially nothing that you did or didn't do that caused the cheating. She did it all on her own.

If she blames you, she's blame-shifting. Cheaters cheat because of their own issues, not because of issues with their partners or relationships.

You still must & get to decide how you will respond.

I'm not sure I can explain what I want you to understand, and I apologize for that. I guess I recommend you make your decisions based primarily on on what you want, what you observe, and on what you think is possible.

Don't let the hurt little boy and man inside your brain decide on the basis of his pain.

IOW, my reco is: go for joy, not for avoiding pain.

I want to ask just one question. Are you seriously going to let something that happened 12 years ago, before you were married, kill a marriage where you and her have been happy? Yes she made a terrible decision 12 years ago but today is today and to my way of thinking to destroy this marriage is cutting off your nose to spite your face. I'm pretty sure that if my wife told me tomorrow that while I was deployed in Southeast Asia ,40 years ago, that she had sex 3 times with a man who lived next door, I can assure you that I would not destroy my marriage over that. (By the way, that really could have happened) It never happened again and we are very happy in our life. After over 50 years we are still in love and show that love every day. There are places in the world where it isn't cheating until you are married. Stop beating your brain and emotions and start enjoying your marriage and your life. She wouldn't have even told you about it if she hadn't believed you would forgive her. She trusted you enough to tell you. Now all the doom sayers are going to say, "yea man she broke your trust and f**ked some other dude. Divorce her." They don't have to live your life and they know nothing about your wife. I do wish you well.

All I wanted to say to you OP is that whatever decision you choose is perfectly justifiable AND understandable.

Personally I think you guys have a good shot, if both of you can get passed this faze.

I don't think you should minimize in anyway how this experience makes you feel. It will always be a part of your life now and managing it will be difficult. But, with the right tools you can survive this with your WW (at least judging from you and Flawed's posts). And if you can't, you don't owe anyone an explanation as to why.

A man approaching a hundred years old divorced his wife after finding out she had affair decades ago. So I wouldn't think it's ridiculous for you to call it quits now, if that is what you desire. I am just hoping that whatever you ultimately decide that you've weighed you options as to what would most likely be the best solution for YOU and YOUR situation. This is about you right now.

Edited for typos.

[This message edited by MrsSouthAfrica at 5:03 AM, July 21st (Sunday)]

@firenze - thanks for the words, and for playing a big part in helping us both process this and work through it over the past 9 months.

@ramius - I continue to try to find peace with this and feel closer now than ever.

@sisoon - I think you misinterpreted what I meant by "accept", or at least what I struggle to accept. I can accept it all happened, I've gotten to that point. What is harder for me to accept is why it all happened, the explanations I laid out. Those are hard to accept, because it's hard for me to accept so many indiscretions and believe they can all be explained in ways that don't include "she didn't love you" or something along that path. I appreciate your emphasis on the "why" being all about her, not about me.

@anoldlion - I guess all I can say is that my feelings of hurt, betrayal, and everything else don't come with a statute of limitations, and knowing my marriage and having kids and everything else in my life happened without a huge, important piece of information isn't an easy pill for me to just swallow down as you set forth. Your words echo many people in my life, all who minimize my pain and have almost ridiculed me for even considering a D. I know it comes from a good place, but it's not helpful to hear.

@MrsSouthAfrica - Thank you

Hi CBM. This is so much the same as my story:

Wife confessed to affair from before marriage

As well as another soon after we got married....

DDay was recent and now I am also trying to make sense of it all.

Exactly as you said:

-back then my wife had terrible boundaries and was still insanely selfish

-to reach some level of acceptance of all this, I have to do a lot of mental gymnastics

-I try to accept that the lifetime of lies she fed me were built on love and a fear of losing me rather than just a manipulation to continue using me.

It all happened during the prime of our lives. And now 30+ years later, I finally find out about these 4xAP's

Brother, I know what you are going through!

Somehow I was naive enough that when my WS 'came out of the fog' we managed to carry on with our lives.

I can honestly say the following 30+ years have really been great. As a team, we have had such good times and made such awesome memories.

Hopefully awesome enough to keep me going forward and to leave the bad times in the past.

Just to let you know that you are not alone. For me it is a struggle every day.

CBM - I wish you well>

Thanks for clarifying.

What is harder for me to accept is why it all happened, the explanations I laid out.

That makes perfect sense to me. I think we all struggle with that ... and lose.

I can follow my W's reasoning for cheating. It makes logical sense. I know in my gut that the first time she let ow bust up a boundary she doomed herself ... yada - yada - yada - yada.

And my gut keeps saying, 'I don't understand.'

In my 8.5 years on SI, I've never read a BS say s/he was completely satisfied with the WS's reasons for cheating.

By this time you're aware that people can't know about being a BS without being betrayed. I think the same goes for WSes - we can't comprehend what betraying is unless we've betrayed someone.

IOW, you basically 'have to' accept that you'll never understand your WS's A. You don't really have to accept it - you can keep fighting. But the fight is futile.

That's just my opinion, but it may be a fact, too....

That whole distinction between explaining a thing and excusing it. The logical progression of decisions by a WW always involves, at some point in time, a decision to break the promise made to the BH, and then to lie to the BH about it. No matter how much these actions may have made sense to the WW from her perspective in context, they are wicked decisions. Once exposed to the light of day, there is nothing that can justify this. Part of R is simply accepting that the woman you love decided to do a bad thing that harmed you. She did it on purpose. That is the fundamental paradox of R.

Yet married couples do R after betrayal. It comes down to that matter of the heart. Can you trust her on a going forward basis (is she safe), and can you believe in your own heart that her desire for you is true? R works if the answer to those two questions is "yes" and if, in addition, she is doing what she can to help you heal.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 9:38 AM, July 22nd (Monday)]

CantBeMe123:

As anoldlion says:

I want to ask just one question. Are you seriously going to let something that happened 12 years ago, before you were married, kill a marriage where you and her have been happy? Yes she made a terrible decision 12 years ago but today is today and to my way of thinking to destroy this marriage is cutting off your nose to spite your face. I'm pretty sure that if my wife told me tomorrow that while I was deployed in Southeast Asia ,40 years ago, that she had sex 3 times with a man who lived next door, I can assure you that I would not destroy my marriage over that. (By the way, that really could have happened) It never happened again and we are very happy in our life. After over 50 years we are still in love and show that love every day. There are places in the world where it isn't cheating until you are married. Stop beating your brain and emotions and start enjoying your marriage and your life. She wouldn't have even told you about it if she hadn't believed you would forgive her. She trusted you enough to tell you. Now all the doom sayers are going to say, "yea man she broke your trust and f**ked some other dude. Divorce her." They don't have to live your life and they know nothing about your wife. I do wish you well.

You said in your first post:

All that said, I do love my life, I love my kids, and up until I found out about this I loved my wife. I think I still love my wife. I am just so mad, and so hurt, and it goes against all my principals and beliefs to forgive her.

Now read again MsSouthAfrica's post.

So, you have to take some time for your brain to get used to the new memory you have been given.

Time is the only way for some part of the processing to occur. The rest is you getting comfortable (!!??) with the idea of having to live with the memory the rest of your life.

You CAN do that. Many on the membership here have. yours truly - for over 35 years now.

Maybe you can think of it as a scar - the wound has healed but the mark remains on your skin to forever remind you of the event that caused so much pain at the time.

Read the part above from anldlion - "something that happened 12 years ago, before you were married," again - she was still not an adult mentally - and since has had time to develop and learn her character. Has she really changed?

Make a list of things you have

and a second list with what you will have AFTER a split with your wife.

There will be good and bad items in both lists. After consideration - which one has the better chance of being

your best choice for the future.

And don't forget - life is HARD and also NOT FAIR and also often a GAMBLE for we cannot foresee the future.

Risk is something you have to take to keep living.

Go back and read the first couple of posts from Butforthegrace - how much still applies regarding what he said? Then read his post on July 16.

these are some of the things you must consider in your gamble

Take all the time you want -